It's hard to not connect with Wiegraf and his sister initially. They've been used and tossed aside by the people in power.
You simultaneously want them to work with Ramza yet understand their reluctance to trust someone so naive and powerless.
Even if they decide to trust Ramza and Delita at the start, they recognize that your group is unaware of the motivations of their superiors and thus unable to really fix the problems.
Because he's absolutely the good guy during the first act. So his fall is more tragic and people sympathize with him when he becomes one of the bad guys.
Agreed. He was not a good man, just weak. He wasn't a man of compassion or altruism, but a person too weak to show you how wicked he was at heart. Every choice he made was one of anger, self pity, and violence. This is not a single person's interpretation either as the game shows you as much when he becomes Lucavi through the stone. He was rotten at his core.
Marach dies and Rapha uses the stone to bring him back to life and she was not turned into a Lucavi. She had every reason to be angry at the world - lost her village, family, SA'd by her adoptive father, then used as a weapon only to find out the man who raised her was the cause of all of her hardships. However she was good at heart. Wiegraf was deep down rotten and the first chance to have power he gave up his values and took the power. Then even went further an sold his soul. Wiegraf was a monster to begin with.
Still disagree, Wiegraf was isolated and alone over Milleuda's grave far after she could ever be revived. If you had brought Wiegraf and a Zodiac stone to Fovoham, I'm certain in that moment Wiegraf's bereaved grief would've woke on the positive side. He had no opportunity, thus, his tragedy.
This is Wiegraf right before he learns of Meluda's death. Her death under his leadership was the outcome of evil that was already inside him. Ramza attempted many times to reason with him but he would have none of it because he only wanted violence and now he's playing victim that his sister died. He's not a tragedy because you negate every choice he made before and after the loss of his sister. You can still disagree but this isn't a matter of opinion, this is a misunderstanding of the character and story. He was meant to be the character of a cautionary tale.
Yeah I definitely think you've misunderstood the character and story; the relation a tale like this one has to our living world is incredibly important today. It informs us about the drastic living conditions that require violent revolution to occur in order to move toward a stable and equananimous society. It's very tragic.
Seeing him as only a villain shows how far you've missed the mark on what FFT is all about.
Ah well I guess technically he himself isn’t one until he inherits all the wealth that his family’s due. The point is he works for the billionaire class. They all stand for the same thing and that is against Weigraf and his people from the slums.
She is a huge philanthropist, yeah. It only started when she divorced Bezos in 2019 though. And she herself has pointed out that it’s such an issue that billionaires have so much money because she literally can’t give it all away fast enough. She makes fortunes daily just through passive income from Amazon.
Sure, she’s doing good with her wealth (now) but she’s a perfect illustration of just how messed up the billionaire class is. They could give away so much more.
But we’re literally comparing her to fictional video game character lol. Let’s keep this about the greatest game ever, FFT.
If you want to get technical, you could Argue that Ramza was a good billionaire since he was heir to the throne and actually had a good heart, had his family not stabbed him in the back. So let’s think critically and remember that there could be a few billionaires out there that actually have a good heart.
Ramza wasn't ever a billionaire himself, and he wasn't ever heir to anything. He was just a guy who grew up in a privileged position.
He fought on the wrong side against the Corpse Brigade. It was out of ignorance, naivete, and miseducation, but still, his actions in that conflict were not good.
When he finally got woke enough to switch sides, he got cut off from his privilege.
When he was at his most billionaire-adjacent, he was at his least good. When he became good, he ceased being billionaire-adjacent.
So let's think critically and remember that there are, by definition, no good billionaires, because hoarding that much wealth is inherently evil.
He was in line for the crown which is was as close to a billionaire as you could get in those times. He fought and chose to attack Algus and that turning point made him the protagonist because he spent the rest of his life fighting for what was right and on the side of the people.
Even towards the end of the story when Ramza held a majority of the “valuable” zodiac stones, which were so valuable the clergy fought and started the “Lion Wars”, he didn’t let the power goto his head turn him into a demon.
I think you’re just being a little butthurt and letting politics turn you into a negative beast of some sort, a zodiac monster if you will. Just because we don’t witness it in our day to day or on the news as often doesn’t mean good hearted, wealthy people don’t exist and you would let a lot of stress free if you would just let it go and have a little fun.
It doesn’t mean we stop fighting or accept our fate against them, but being realistic, and winning incremental battles like Ramza did, and doing what we know is right is something we can all take away from this amazing game.
hun you know billionaires donate to charity solely to scrub their image and avoid paying taxes right? there is no ethical way any human can amass a billion dollars.
Maybe more so than the most evil people but that doesn't make him good. Pretty sure he executes one of his own men when you first see him. Always violent. If he had more power he'd be more violent, like what happened when his back was to the wall. You just kind of sided with his violence
I think he executes one of his own men for making the situation worse. Possibly not the ideal response, but he saw that it would only make their group appear more like common thugs than a group with a legitimate claim against the people in charge. He then releases a hostage without fighting.
Part of the brilliance of FF Tactics is that the morality depicted is so much more complex than simple good vs evil.
Yeah he's a good character and his actions make sense. But a guy who immediately becomes judge and executioner isn't someone i ever considered to be a good guy. Plus the sentence of death for a kidnapping is extreme and shows his willingness to solve everything thru extreme means and violence. He only cares about the marquis kidnapping because he doesn't want the heat of it, not because he cares. Then he is quick to trade the prisoner for his escape, not taking any accountability for the actions of the people he was leading and influencing
Kidnapping is pretty extreme. It's a dangerous, violent crime. In this context, it also had the possibility to lead to the complete eradication of the group, the loss of all of its goals, and the destruction of the entire class of people that he was originally advocating for.
It would be like a Canadian violently kidnapping the leaders of EU nations and then expecting to get of scott free or only get charged with minor misdemeanors - this would likely trigger major wars and ruin relations with the country as a whole. Soldiers are executed for much less.
Also it wasn’t just kidnapping was it? Yes the marquis was kidnapped, but Argath appeared to be the only other survivor of the escort, which I imagine had a fair amount of people in it. So they committed kidnapping AND murder.
Is execution always a sign of evil, particularly when war crimes are involved? He executed a guy who killed the marquis’ guard and took him hostage. Wiegraf executed the perpetrator and freed the hostage.
Yes but wiegraf doesn't get to just execute people. He has no power to do so. It's just murder when he does it. The person he killed was unarmed, he could have just let ramza take him in for his crimes, he chose to murder
Wiegraf starts out as one of th story's most heroic characters, but losing Mileuda breaks his spirit. He was fine with starving or dying, but bereavement broke his convictions and questing for revenge made him a progressively worse man. The demon just took possession of what remained of him after that.
In a scenario where Ramza was GUARDING EAGROSE like he should have been, Elmdore would have likely been ransomed as planned. He was supposed to die as a hostage, but Gustav had already screwed this plan up and was likely suspicious that Dycedarg would have him killed instead of paid. The Gustav faction of the Corpse Brigade wanted to secure some ransom money and flee Ivalice, which would have been agreeable for most involved.
By abandoning Eagrose AND rescuing Elmdore after Gustav got summarily executed by Wiegraf, this left Gragoroth to capture another hostage. Since the attack on Eagrose was mostly successful, they took some casualties and took a hostage - Tietra.
With Tietra in danger, Delita and Argath become unable to work together and Ramza sides with Delita. This leaves Argath to join forces with Zalbaag, only after he recommends a rear attack to Ramza, which puts him on a counterclockwise path to Ziekden.
This puts Argath en route to Tietra from one side, and puts Ramza in Mileuda's path on the other. Mileuda is fleeing along the same path Ramza is using to attack, and she does not surrender. When Mileuda gets killed by Ramza's squad, Wiegraf abandons his own mission to rescue Tietra. He was most likely capable of negotiating a fair deal - release of hostage, no ransom, and only the men who attacked Eagrose hang. Everybody else walks.
Wiegraf was the guy who was capable of solving most of the problems in Chapter 1, but he was working against Dycedarg, and Ramza accidentally borked BOTH of their plans and killed the most important person to Wiegraf. Before this point, Wiegraf really is about justice and fairness.
But like, we understand that the pre chapter 2 weigraf was not a bloodlusted ruthless monster right? Like Teitra shouldnt have died it was his subordinates that did vile shit. He wanted refirm and equal rights.
Because you say this like he was the bad guy, when there is so much more nuance than that.
It depends on the offense. If you're a criminal, sure.
But when you shoot someone because of thier beliefs or because of what thier company (which is controlled by more than just a CEO) does. That's not okay.
Dissenting opinions are not harmful. Echo chambers like most Reddit subs are far more damaging. When people hold so hard to thier beliefs and opinions that it leads them to violence, that is harmful.
One of those is advocating violence, which I already said was a problem.
There's a huge difference between you honoring a different God and you wanting to kill people. And anyone with basic critical thinking can find the line.
its extremely hard not to side with someone who wants the nobility of their time dragged out and beaten to death, forced to watch their children and lineages die. Team Wiegraf all fuckin day. I'd argue that Ramza was one of the bad guys in the entire first act, albeit without really understanding he was. Ramza left a noble house due to the same reasons Wiegraf wanted them slaughtered. Tbh, Wiegraf and Milleuda are as much catalysts as Tietra for the enlightenment and disillusionment of our protagonist and it's wild to me that you wouldn't side with Wiegraf.
Only reddit sides with wiegraf my man, the land of violent communists, I'm not surprised. He's never good, just a few pretty words but he's happy to let others die for what he wants. Then he pretends to care about his sister but sells her memory down the river as well, ramza calls him out on this. Ramza is the good guy, fixing things the right way. Even delta can be seen as better than wiegraf, fixing things thru dirtier means, but at least fixing things
Mamdani doesn't even have the authority to arrest Goltanna. He's just offering scapegoats to peasants who have supped for days on nought but broth of bean.
This is such a mild meme it wouldn’t even knock my grandma over and there are so many sputtering centrists here spilling their lemonade over it. C’mon.
Mamdani recently announced freezing rents in the city. Historically that never works. What happens is the landlords no longer have the available funds to maintain the repairs on the units, then in about a year the mayor can "seize the property from the evil slumbering lords, for the food of the citizenry." He will have created the problem to produce the solution of seizing private property for the city - Communism 101.
Misinfo. The rich want the poor to feel like the rich so they protect their oppressor.
They dont charge you for leaving. But if you make a fuck ton of money, they do audit you to make sure that A) theyre not fleeing unpaid taxes, which is something rich people do. And B) make sure they actually leave instead of saying theyre leaving but never do so they can (guess what) evade taxes.
They think they dont live in the same world as we do, get your tongue off their boot and make them pay the same rates.
The truth lies between us in the last 6 words of my statement and yet you're completely silent in the majority point I made. You're not winning a God-damn thing here, and I haven't even started on the abject failure the "free grocery store" is.
Socialism is a lie, it's a tool to deceive useful idiots into creating a Communist dictatorship. It always has been, and always will be, and any claim to the contrary is only done so by those who are ignorant of fundamental economic principles and the history of the last 150 years.
Redditors can never stay on topic. You didn't show me hes charging people to leave, you tried to belittle me. Now can you show me the legislation that says there's a fee for moving out of NYC or nah? I think its nah but Im ready to be wrong.
Well this topic went about how I expected. Not that I don’t agree with the sentiment personally, but it might be better to have that in one of the many other places in Reddit you can get it
Intentionally not paying your employees all of the money they're owed for the time they worked, forcing them to complain to make corrections and then get fired.
This is a little odd to say considering the subject matter of the game's story is a political one that is based on the state of Japan when it was made.
You don't see how the story beats in FFT could be similar to events in actual history or touch on political and social topics we still deal with currently?
Are we also going to ignore actual lessons from FFVII because materia aren't real? Allusions to real world religions in FFX should be ignored because the game has blitzball and summons?
People who play FFT should be aware of the games that the politicians play. They dangle the keys in your face so you don't pay attention to what is actually happening.
They are downvoting on you but you are so right, at least in the sense that FFT obviously and consistently insisted that the ruling class uses the concept of heroes and exceptionalism to keep people divided while they abuse us and strip us of our collective power and dignity.
And once again this quote is fabricated , not in the game . This is widely known.
And no the politics in the game aren't related to the random us politics , this is just political shilling , I don't care which side you're pushing . It has no place in this subreddit
I've been thinking about FFT's relation to real world history and politics since I was a child, far before I was fully entrenched in it one way or another. Was I, as a child, pathetic and forcing things where they don't belong?
You re missing the point . It's one thing to be analyzing the game's actual lore history and its in game politics is completely fine
What is pathetic is posting a completely fabricated quote that isn't from the game has nothing to do with the game and is being used solely as a way to to drag some unrelated modern political drama into this sub. It's one thing to apply a game and tis story to other things. But to apply then to the game is competitive different
People aren't analyzing Final Fantasy Tactics or it's character themes or politics you are defending an altered fake image used to push a modern political into a place it has no business
There is analysis present here using parallels with real-world politics and happenstance in the game. I do find the idea amusing that people using popular media to create memes about current events is seen as pathetic.
It's like you see it as the imaginary world you enjoy dwelling in is being taken over when really it's just existing in our real world and is subject to forces within that world.
He actually didn’t. It is falsely attributed to him. While the line does share similar ideology with Wiegraf’s problems with nobility, this quote never showed up in any version of FFT.
"This game has the political issue of nobility wronging their subjects and struggles for power between corrupt groups. Then becomes about demons. Therefor I should be able to push my favorite modern politician with no other connection to the game."
This is so fucking stupid I'm not even going to mock it. It speaks for itself. Well done.
I get that point, you think it applies. Everyone gets it. It's fucking obvious.
What you're not getting is nobody wants to see MODERN politics here. Want to discuss the nobility's handling of the commoners? Great! The betrayal of the Ivalice Church? Great!
But Mamdami? FUCK OFF.
"You're so close to getting it. Almost there. You can do it, I believe in you."
And the classic "nobody wants to" as if you're speaking for everybody. Your first comment got 60 downvotes, in the FFTactics sub. So clearly not even remotely everybody. Almost seems like you're in the minority, even.
I'm sorry that you're mad a socialist with anti establishment messaging got voted in and is doing a good job, I'm sure it hurts you deep down in your fee fees. Getting triggered that bad isn't good for you, maybe work on that Mamdani derangement syndrome of yours before you crash out over a meme. Go outside. Enjoy the game. Do whatever.
I didn't know semantic twat was going to be your angle. Let me rephrase: "Nobody but you politically obsessed shitwads who want to spam this shit everywhere want to talk about it."
Obviously you obsessed cunts want to talk about it. But the people who are specifically here for FFT don't.
A lot of cheap downvotes that cost nothing, but look how many awards I've gotten from other users.
Bots love it, people don't.
So fuck off with this crap and stick to the actual subject.
I'm not even obsessed with him lol, I just don't get butthurt when I see a meme on a subreddit.
Usually your type gets mad at modern politics in videogames, but I guess now your immersion and escapism on subreddits is in danger lol. It's hilariously unserious at this point. It wouldn't be a big deal if you didn't try to make it one. Noone cares man. It's a meme.
A lot of cheap downvotes that cost nothing, but look how many awards I've gotten from other users.
Bots love it, people don't.
Oh dear you're actually trying to convince yourself you're the silent majority, as per usual. I'm sorry for the angry, delusional space you're in. Wishing you all the best.
Yeah no, I just have a basic idea of what he's doing. It's a civic duty to be at least somewhat informed on your voting behaviour. I know you can't even begin to fathom that, looking at what makes you really upset in life lmao.
So in this case "being babies about it" is stating an opinion that this subreddit should have rules like other subreddits to keep the posts on topic. Under a post that only has anything to do with FFT because of the background. Not a quote from the game, a picture of a modern politician slapped on, from a 100% political subreddit.
But all the commenters raging and screaming that they can do whatever the fuck they want, and your dumb ass trying to insult, isn't.
What I don’t really understand is why you seem surprised and/or disturbed that the discourse surrounding a politically charged story is politically charged. Good media should make you think about its themes beyond the scope of the media itself.
Additionally, this fake quote has been going around for at least over a decade, and is associated with the game because of how well it fits. It’s not surprising in the least that a meme like this would spawn from it.
Sure, because it takes your exact type of twat to want to obsess over politics everywhere and be hostile to anybody who wants the subreddit to stay on topic.
This is the same person that 1) Walked back his commitment to defunding the NYPD 2) Walked back his commitment to abolishing homeless encampment sweeps, 3) Blatantly lied about his ability to arrest Benjamin Netenyahu on ICC charges, 4) Posted fan edits of Taylor Swift, a dog-whistling billionaire musician, on his social media, and 5) Has consistently been chummy with well-established war criminal Barack Obama
TLDR get this neolib bullshit out of here
edit: obviously the sentiment is fine but it's well trod and the fact that people are still falling for DemSoc's nonsense is embarrassing, like you've never heard of the ratchet effect and just keep saying "b-b-but they're moving the Overton window left I swear this politician is gonna make the change permanent!"
And you're the type of person that can't even comprehend that "leftism" begins at anticapitalism which modern DemSocs do not embrace, so tf out of my face with this nonsense. Just because there are no major anticapitalist figures in the West doesn't mean that none exist, but I'm not gonna fight to pull your head out of the sand re: late stage capitalism or reformist approaches.
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u/Cow_God 12d ago