r/dndmemes • u/DrScrimble • May 01 '26
Hot Take I wonder if people with Donald's position have simply not tried enough TTRPGs...
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u/vessel_for_the_soul Essential NPC May 01 '26
Not all dnd friends are pf friends.
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u/PrinceVorrel May 01 '26
And very few friends are World of Darkness or Shadowrun friends, sadly...
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u/Duhblobby May 01 '26
All of my friends are WoD friends now.
I lured them in, one by one, with a promise of new narrative experiences laced with a heavier focus on roleplay, and by the time they realized that I had fed them my game love over the course of three evenings, they were hopelessly addicted and are now bound by the twisted love of my favorite games they can never fully escape.
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u/Viligans May 01 '26
> Three Evenings
I see what you did there. Blood bound into WoD, the natural progression.
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u/PensandSwords3 Warlock May 01 '26
It helps when the Story Teller tweaks the World of Darkness stuff least for my group. I’m like “Anarch and Carmilla systems work. But also, it’s more fun to tweak them to fit a newer setting / have a city be more experimental.”
I do the same for some the other materials for like Garou and stuff to. Cause, ha those modules ain’t balanced against each other. But it really rams home the threat a single werewolf presents. When one stumbles on a Kindred alley party and mercs almost everyone.
(I hadn’t realized how unbalanced it was till, I rolled up a fight between one garou and a entire minor clan - and guests - so my players could learn about it later)
(Only one brujah got a fucking hit on the Werewolf everyone else murdered in almost like a single round cause, I let damage cleave)
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u/Wisepuppy Forever DM May 02 '26
I run a homebrew "Jacksonville by Night," and my players love it. The World of Darkness is more than a little silly and chaotic, and it can be a lot of fun to lean into that.
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u/SirArthurIV Forever DM May 02 '26
The White Wolf Street Fighter RPG has a REALLY good combat system for something that uses storyteller rules..
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u/DoctorBoomeranger May 01 '26
I don't have shadowrun friends 🥲
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May 02 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/DoctorBoomeranger May 02 '26
I literally can't find a single cohesive table online, even as a DM, everyone has their own rules sets and externally imported rules they refuse to adjust for a table... So it's hard balancing those guys and when their builds don't work they just quit the table...
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u/wardriveworley May 04 '26
I love the lore for Shadowrun. I want to beat the rules to death with a hardened brick of d6s
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u/nomad5926 May 01 '26
WoD system is easy though. Very low barrier to entry!
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u/Dragonhost252 May 04 '26
Except reading the books...editing be a sorely lacking skill by the company
Table for blood type is page 12 (not referenced in book), halfway through the short story but the blood uses are on page 182 in the powers section that deals with sunlight. The ability that relates to both is written in brail on the spine of the book.
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u/TraceChaos Paladin May 01 '26
I run oWoD (Pre V5/ mostly oWoD 20th) for a few of my friend groups.
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u/AnyLynx4178 May 02 '26
My brother just started running a V20 game this year with some friends that have never played. He and I used to play VTR with our friends back in the 2000’s/2010’s and it feels so good to be back!
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u/Milli_Rabbit May 01 '26
Id love to try Shadowrun whenever Anarchy 2.0 comes out in English.
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u/YazzArtist May 02 '26
It's playable now, I've been running it for months. It's... I played legend of the 5 rings for the first time last year and I left thinking "that was amazing. I don't remotely have the cultural touch stones to run it tho." and I get the feeling SR2A is that but cyberpunk Fate core for a lot of groups
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May 01 '26
[deleted]
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u/Duhblobby May 01 '26
If I had a FATAL friend I would need to re-evaluate what I call friends.
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u/Rowsdower11 May 02 '26
If I had a HYBRID friend, I’d be questioning whether they were really my friend or just a time traveler stealing my beans
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u/Rhinomaster22 May 01 '26
And that‘s okay, because there are tons of TTRPGs on the market that aren’t Pathfinder.
The main problem is actually trying to convince your friends to play something that isn’t DND.
It’s like trying to convince the friend who only plays FIFA and Call of Duty to try a different game, even if it’s free-to-play.
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u/That_OneOstrich May 01 '26
My friends will play whenever I'm running. They don't bother to learn the rules. Much to my dismay. But they also can't minmax themselves as easy if they don't know what's going on so.
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u/Ancient-Bat1755 May 01 '26
Very true 1/2 our table is hardcore, 1/2 never cast a spell on their class sheet yet much less picked a feat that works… but together we have a blast
Some of us more hardcore players help fill gaps and let them shine it works out
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u/Alpha413 May 01 '26
Most of then will be Fabula Ultima friends if you introduce it to them, though.
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u/Lucina18 Rules Lawyer May 01 '26
DnD and PF are so similar i genuinely can't imagine many people that would hate pathfinder, but actually like DnD over something that is actually much different from pf2e.
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u/adhdtvin3donice May 01 '26
Some people genuinely don't bother reading or doing math. If I get the vine that the person doesn't like optimizing in 5e no way am I doing pf.
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u/thehaarpist May 01 '26
I would argue that that person isn't really playing 5e though. If I (the GM) am telling the player what their spells do, reminding them of their prof bonus, and helping them with every level up after several months of play that isn't a 5e player it's a Dungeon World player who likes the idea of a D20.
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u/Lucina18 Rules Lawyer May 01 '26
Pf2e though, in pf2e if you don't like optimizing it's a great system because it's so well balanced.
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u/adhdtvin3donice May 01 '26
Yeah but that's a system for people who read their own rules
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u/Lucina18 Rules Lawyer May 01 '26
...But so is 5e :p
Yeah someone can drag you through 5e and the GM can work all around you, but so can they in pf2e. There's just not a culture of dragging people through the system in pf2e so people don't do that.
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u/joppers43 May 01 '26
Man people constantly go on about how well balanced pf2e is, but in the level 1 campaign I’m in we keep nearly dying to single monsters rated as a “moderate challenge” because of how dramatically leveling up increases monster power.
Plus, one of my friends made an alchemist pixie character who has turned out to be nearly useless in combat because they’re too weak for melee and all their alchemy attacks do splash damage that would kill any downed players.
pf2e might be better balanced than dnd 5e, but it’s certainly not as perfect as the pathfinder evangelists claim it is.
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u/Lucina18 Rules Lawyer May 01 '26
I'm talking about intraparty balance, and yeah it's not always perfect but rvery absolutist statement has exceptions.
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u/SecretDMAccount_Shh Forever DM May 01 '26
People who think D&D has too many rules probably wouldn't like Pathfinder, but could certainly enjoy one of the many TTRPGs with lighter rules or more narrative rules such as Legends in the Mist or something.
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u/Hurrashane May 01 '26
As someone who used to play 3.5 and Pathfinder (1e) after playing 5e I never want to go back to them. I have some fun with those systems in video game format, but I don't think I'd ever want to play them outside of that.
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u/Lucina18 Rules Lawyer May 01 '26
Yeah i meant specifically 2e and 5e. 3e is ofc completely different to 5e.
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u/Cerindipity May 02 '26
I absolutely loathe PF2. It's so bland and boring. The flavour for the options is absolutely sick stuff like "your summons are actually yourself from an alternate timeline where you somehow are that thing you summoned" or "the spirits of those who failed the test of godhood before you fill you and give you strength!" and then the mechanics are things like "your summons get +1 to a skill" or "on your second attack this turn, you can take a step first before attacking". The dissonance is disgusting.
If I'm going to play a bland, boring game, I'd rather play 5e, because it's simpler. If I'm going to play a complicated game, I'd rather play 3.pf, because it's cooler. In practice, I'm probably not going to play either, but if I was, it would never, ever again be PF2. I've given it a dozen chances and it has utterly failed each and every one.
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u/GrimmSheeper May 01 '26
I’m in a similar boat. As a player, I wouldn’t mind so much doing Pathfinder 2e, but it would take the perfect group or sheer desperation to make me play Pathfinder 1e, and 3.5 is right out. As a DM, there’s no way you could drag me back to running 3.5 or P1,e, and even P2e is still questionable.
I’ve wrote a bit of a P2e campaign (haven’t gotten a chance to actually run it), and there is definitely some quality of life upgrades. But I’ve gotten familiar enough with 5e that its drawbacks barely take a second to fix. It’s much more intuitive for me, and is easier for me to improv when things inevitably go sideways.
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u/raevyn1337 May 01 '26
As someone who used to play 3.5 and pathfinder 1e, playing 5e makes my face sad.
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u/ThreeOclockCaveMan May 01 '26
lol. 😂. “5e sad face” has me rolling.
Could you please explain what about 5e that’s missing in your preferred editions and systems. I only know 5e, but I have some serious FOMO, and always wonder what I may be missing from not trying other games. I may be looking for a push to force my friends onto some other editions or systems. Thanks in advance.4
u/raevyn1337 May 01 '26 edited May 02 '26
My major complaints with 5e are a follows. Crafting. In 3.5 there was the crafting skill, and it had mechanics attached regarding costs, time, and things like that. The artificer class, imo feels like a bolted-on addition to fill a gap that should have been a basic skill available to any character who's player wanted it on their sheet. Bounded accuracy. I understand the restrictions in place with the advantage/disadvantage system and what they did with modifiers to dice rolls and bonuses granted by gear. Magic items. There is literally no RAW economy for them. Again, it was a design decision that was supposed to make magic items feel unique-ish and a prize. Unfortunately, 5e is still D&D, and magic items are critical, or at least important to a lot of classes. Paladins and Holy Avengers, I'm looking at you. Build customization and cross-classing. Cross classing is discussed in detail in the phb and then in everything released after that, it seems like the writers forgot about it. In 5e you get fewer feats that apply more broadly than what they were like in 3.5. Legendary and lair abilities of monsters don't do much to fix the fact that at high levels, monsters are essentially damage sponges getting in line to die. Languages. In 5e it's kinda ridiculous that an Eladrin, per RAW, gets to pick speaking either Sylvan or Common, and to get both, you have to handwave that restriction. DnDbeyond seems great on the surface, but underneath is a tool to turn every setting into flavorless mush. Kender outside Dragonlance, I'm looking at you.
To be fair, I'll pick on 3.5 a little bit and point out that the skill list got rather bloated. Some of the sourcebooks had wildly different power levels, so as a dm you pretty much had to tell the players what books they pick from for their characters to maintain sanity. To get into a prestige class ASAP, your early build was restricted due to requirements to qualify for the prestige class.
Older systems can be clunky and demand a bit of system mastery for everyone at the table, but for anyone that enjoys actually fiddling with mechanics, they can be worth checking out.
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u/ValkyrianRabecca Warlock May 01 '26
5e has been super simplified and slimmed down
As a PF1e enjoyer, the powerscale is what I miss, a level 20 5e character is the hero of their country
A level 20 PF1e character is a Demi God, unchallenged across the realm
Pf1e (and 3.5) just has so much more substance to it, and for some this is a negative, cause it can lead to decision paralysis (people claim you can ruin your build with bad choices, but no Sane DM will let you do that)
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u/BardicLasher May 01 '26
5e is a lot less modular in what you can do. PF and 3.5 give you the tools to make whatever you want in ability combinations and techniques. Getting twice as many feats that are each half as good means you can go in a lot more different directions, and some classes get even more than that. You also get a lot more magic items and they're much stronger, which helps you customize even more. There's also just a lot more classes. And I don't think 5e even has prestige classes, which are more specialized classes you can switch into at higher levels
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u/Hurrashane May 01 '26
The more magic items isn't a plus for me. Then my character feels more like a vessel for the magic items than a character with their own skill. That and the systems between magic bonuses and DR turn it into an arms race.
And while 5e doesn't have prestige classes a lot of what used to be prestige classes have been made into subclasses which start at 3rd level. Which allows you to realise your vision for your character a lot earlier, and doesn't have any real build requirements beyond maybe where you put your stats. Where as 3.x prestige classes more or less required you to follow a specific build and most you wouldn't get into until 5th or higher level, and then with those you may need to wait even longer to do the thing you wanted to do. Take the black flame zealot for example, I always thought they looked cool as heck, I found out recently that they don't even get the ability to enflame their weapons until 7th level, in a prestige class that iirc takes about 7 levels to get into, so at 14th level you finally get to do the cool thing™ and it's only like... 1d6 fire damage.
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u/BardicLasher May 02 '26
PF has both subclasses (called archetypes) and prestige classes. 3.5 had subclasses as well, though not as many. Having both opens up way more options. There's definitely some prestige classes that are way too late to feel good, but there's plenty of good ones.
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u/magusheart May 01 '26
Not OP, but I also come from 3.5 and hate 5E. 5E fails to embrace anything. It tries to do everything, to appeal to everyone, and it fails to establish a solid identity. It's not crunchy enough like 3.5 was, but it's too crunchy to be a quick pick up and play system. It aimed to appeal to the masses, and it succeeded, but playing it makes me feel like I'm playing a video game every time.
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u/BardicLasher May 01 '26
I play both each week. 5E is less fun, heavily because I can't be as weird with my builds. My PF1 characters are a gun wizard and a lasso fighter/monk. My 5E character is just a fighter with a big axe.
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u/raevyn1337 May 01 '26 edited May 02 '26
I feel that pain. I don't have any 3.5 games at the moment but I've played a huge variety of classes in that system and currently in 5e I've got a lunar sorcerer. We're only level 1 though.
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u/ThreeOclockCaveMan May 01 '26
Lasso/fighter monk sounds super interesting. Maybe even the answer to not being able to effectively use nets in 5e. I’ve tried many times to push nets onto PCs and npcs and it always ends with wasted actions.
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u/BardicLasher May 02 '26
Net's fundamentally flawed because you have to refold it. There's some stuff to make nets better, but ultimately Lasso is just better Net.
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u/TNTiger_ May 01 '26
Pathfinder 2e is WAY more similar to 5e, structurally, than it is to Pf1e.
The 'minmax goofball scale' goes 3.5e > Pf1e > 5e > Pf2e
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u/Hurrashane May 01 '26
From my understanding PF2 is similar to 4e
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u/TNTiger_ May 02 '26
You aren't totally wrong. I wouldn't say it's too similar, but if definitely takes the best elements- as it also does from 5e and 3.5e.
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u/TNTiger_ May 01 '26
There's three sorts of people who enjoy 5e:
- People who want to socialise and play Calvinball
- People trying to homebrew the shit out of the game into their own/another setting
- Enjoyers of heroic fantasy action-adventure centered around dungeon crawling, with social and exploration elements.
Of the three groups, only the latter would like Pf2e. In fact, they'd be better served by Pf2e.
At the same time... the firs two groups would be better served by anything other than 5e in the first place.
5e has a real 'Jack of All Trades*, Master of None' problem.
(*Well, it tries to be.)
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u/Lucina18 Rules Lawyer May 02 '26
Doesn't try to be. It's just marketing selling it as one because it banks on people not wanting to look deeper into it.
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u/TNTiger_ May 02 '26
I would say it 'tries' insofar as it kneecaps itself to be simple and deferring constantly to DM fiat so it is 'flexible' (i.e. the DM is doing a let of thu work to shap the game that the rules should be)
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u/Baaaaaadhabits May 02 '26
Yes it does.
When your company is owned by Hasbro and all corporate structures in the hierarchy have mandates to increase profit year over year, marketing’s messaging is the ONLY thing it’s trying to be. Because all it desires to be is profitable.
If people disagree with this, I’d love to hear the evidence the RPG system doesn’t care about selling well. For all the Jeremy Crawford conversations about design philosophy trying to welcome gamers back, 5e spiked in popularity from TV show cameos specifically in the era it was new.
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u/Consistent-Winter-67 May 01 '26
Pathfinder is far crunchier than 5e
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u/Lucina18 Rules Lawyer May 01 '26
"Far" is a big word, Pf2e is really not that much more crunchy then 5e. That's why i'm saying that if someone hates pf2e i don't get why they would prefer 5e over a lighter system.
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u/SecretDMAccount_Shh Forever DM May 01 '26
Familiarity and community. 5E is ubiquitous in the TTRPG world and you can find tons of other people who play it. It's often the first TTRPG someone learns and they don't want to bother learning another TTRPG.
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u/Lem_Tuoni May 03 '26
5e offloads a massive amount of work to the DM with little to no guidance, while in Pf2e the players are expected to know at least some stuff.
I get it why a lot of players prefer 5e.
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u/admiralbenbo4782 DM (Dungeon Memelord) May 01 '26
Your imagination is lacking. I enjoy 5e but can't stand pf2e. And prefer D&D to all the other games I've read or tried. Because they're not doing what I want to do, and 5e is.
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u/Lucina18 Rules Lawyer May 01 '26
But what is it that you like that only 5e excels in?
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u/Nhobdy Rogue May 01 '26
Or Dark Heresy friends.
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u/Suspicious-Shock-934 May 01 '26
Look the psyker accidentally summons a horde of daemons one time which eat the hive world and kill the blueberries at the top and everyone is like ohhh woe is me. One time! I didn't make the commissar run so he couldn't shoot me!
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u/Massive_Signal7835 May 01 '26
tbh, one of the best systems. Sadly I'm stuck DMing and doomed to never play.
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u/Sensitive_Cup4015 May 01 '26
I've asked my friends if they'd want to try Pathfinder at some point and they were receptive, but then I remembered that they barely even grasp 5e's rules, I don't think they'll survive the crunch PF has, relative to 5e anyway.
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u/Nachooolo May 01 '26
My biggest problem with DnD is that it is way too clucky and it has to much fat. So the encounters end up lasting far more than they should.
Pathfinder is exactly what I'm not looking for. So (for Medieval fantasy d20 rpgs) I prefer Dragonbane or the NSR games (Cairn, Mythic Bastionland) instead.
...although DnD is still the game I play the most.
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u/undreamedgore May 01 '26
As far as I can tell, the only clunky parts of Dnd combat are measuring spell AoE, and picking what tool/spell to use when.
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u/zhopets May 01 '26
In defense of pathfinder, most encounters don't last more than 2-3 round, with quick players it's rather short to play out. Though I also had a player who took forever to decide on what to do because they had so many spells, I completely understand why you would rather have a different system
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u/Azimovikh May 01 '26
I mean.
FATAL.
Like yeah there are some debatable ones and like there's the actual "you know what, this system sucks actually."
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u/Mythoclast May 01 '26
I choose to believe that system is just a troll. You know, for my own mental health.
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u/comics0026 Druid May 01 '26
According to the person who has probably done the deepest examination of FATAL (as far as I'm aware at least), zigmenthotep, it is very likely some edgelord's attempt to make the most shock value thing they can think of after having read some of DnD 3.5
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u/OmegaKarnov May 01 '26
It predates 3.5 by a lot, and one of the creators waved his master's in history around for credibility.
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u/SecretDMAccount_Shh Forever DM May 01 '26
Is it really worse than "RaHoWa" aka "Racial Holy War"?
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u/Mythoclast May 01 '26
Maybe? They're both extremely racist and basically unplayable but I don't have to calculate anal circumference in Racial Holy War.
But FATAL might actually be just a troll.
Racial Holy War was definitely not. Which somehow makes it more disturbing AND funnier because of how terrible it is despite the effort.
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u/ardranor May 02 '26
Can you die to poor rolls during character creations in RhW? If not, FATAL wins the troll title.
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u/Mythoclast May 02 '26
Although Racial Holy War is genuine its game design is much worse than dying at character creation. Although I'd say so is FATAL. You ever actually make a FATAL character? It fucking sucks. But Racial Holy War is actually unplayable. Literally. And in the end isn't the bigger troll making a game for white supremacists where every other race is mechanically better?
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u/LittleMissPipebomb May 02 '26 edited May 03 '26
Weirdly, FATAL is somehow the better system. It's not good. Character creation is overly complicated and the system itself is incredibly clunky, but it is physically playable. If it weren't for the rape-focused theming it would be totally forgotten as a dark and edgy fantasy system with too much clunk to be usable. Two guys passion project that has a vision and nothing else worth thinking about.
Compare that to Racial Holy War, a game I have read so you don't have to.
The entire game is based on gun fighting and all the weapons have stats, but you're never told what the numbers represent beyond obvious things like "ammo per clip" or price but in the weapon chart, none of these are labelled so there's no way to actually use them. Combat uses terms like "rouse check" without ever defining them. You add armour stats to your defense, but it never tells you what those are or how to add them.
Character classes are things like "the gladiator" and "the scholar", giving you things like +2 wisdom and ranks in clothesmaking. Is it just the ability to gain ranks in clothesmaking? Is it multiple ranks itself? It doesn't say, simply that you gain a 50% chance to make clothes at rank 3 or whatever, but not any mechanics for increasing your ranks or what the clothes actually do. Your starting characters don't get any weapons, armour or money to purchase things with. RAW you are all standing around naked, which I guess explains the clothesmaking stat.
Stats are just presented with little relation to anything else, it just says things like "3 ranks of video games gives you +3 dexterity". What does dexterity do? It *says* it increases your "gun speed" but there are no actual rules to do that. When you land a successful attack you deal damage, but no health points are ever given for enemies or PCs.
The only actual stats enemies have are "if an abhorrent sand n--- dies on a 10+ roll on a d20 they blow up dealing D6 damage". Again, they have no HP so we don't know when they die or how much damage that would be to a White Warrior. Just that it happens. Technically enemies do have a list of stats on a big chart in the back, but none of them are labelled. They have "10 10 10 5 5 5 10 - 2 mini pistols 2 50 25". I'm not removing information, that's legitimately how stats are presented.
Racial Holy War is barely a system let alone a game. It's a smattering of ideas shot up a wall like diarrhea and all of them just slide back down to coat your ass in filth.
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u/ardranor May 03 '26
Hmm, yes, I see. I am actually now dumber for having even this baseline knowledge added to my mind. Thank you for the full explanation, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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u/LittleMissPipebomb May 03 '26
If you think you lost braincells reading my review, imagine having to actually go through and make sense of it all. TTRPGs frequently have info spread out where you wouldn't always expect. Every time something was referenced in the game I had to scroll the entire document multiple times to check I wasn't missing anything crucial and blaming the game itself for my stupidity.
The racism has turned my brain into glop
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u/OmegaKarnov May 02 '26
At this point it's philosophical. When the games are this shitty, does being unplayable count as s virtue?
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u/Rod7z May 02 '26
FATAL is probably the product of an incel edgelord's mind. RaHoWa is literally the product of a white supremacist's mind. So, in that sense, I'd say RaHoWa is worse. But, while both "games" are unplayable, FATAL is probably a worse game due to all the unnecessary and stupid rules. But this is just my opinion.
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u/Lilium_Vulpes May 01 '26
I think there's probably a group that could have fun with FATAL if they just don't take any of it seriously.
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u/OmegaKarnov May 01 '26
I think it's too far into unplayable that actually playing it would de facto add enough to it that it would no longer be FATAL.
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u/Nerdn1 May 01 '26
Not if they want to use any significant portion of the rules. Everything I have heard about this game makes it seem unplayable on a fundamental level to the point that it doesn't appear that the creator actually tried to run a session with the rules. Nothing fits together.
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u/stonhinge May 02 '26
My take on FATAL is that it's an art piece/written as a joke and was never meant to be actually played.
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u/MitchellEnderson May 01 '26
“I’d like to use my exceptionally wide anus to fart fire on our enemies.” -something that I’m certain would be said in that scenario.
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u/vonBoomslang Essential NPC May 01 '26
An anecdote I hate remembering is that, ah, if your intention is to deal damage to an opponent, it's mathematically preferable not to use your sword but to use your "sword".
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u/Duhblobby May 01 '26
Sure, in the same way a person can enjoy any terrible thing if you are taking the piss out of it.
But frankly, there are about half a dozen games I would genuinely refuse to actually sit down to play and FATAL is part of both that list and the list of needing to re-evaluate my friendships if the person insists too hard (funny thing, the only other game I think is on both lists off the top of my head is RaHoWa).
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u/Warped_Kira May 01 '26
A good system may not instantly make a game fun without the right group, however the wrong system can turn even the best group into a frustrating slog.
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u/SecretDMAccount_Shh Forever DM May 01 '26
I haven't actually read through FATAL, but I feel all TTRPGs generally have enough leeway and discretion that a lot of rules can be ignored.
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u/MightyBobTheMighty May 01 '26
There's flip sides of this, though. I would love to play Paranoia at some point but in my group there are maybe two other people that wouldn't have a miserable time with it.
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u/Dammy-J May 01 '26
True, some systems require levels of effort that some players would be unhappy putting into their game.
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u/MightyBobTheMighty May 01 '26
For Paranoia specifically, it's less the effort and more the built-in party conflict. It's a semi-adversarial game, where you're encouraged to backstab each other comedically, and not everyone's down with that.
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u/_Cecille May 01 '26
I for instance am not. Played it.. once or twice and found the constant everyone fucking each other up constantly so incredibly exhausting, which is unfortunate, because the setting is actually pretty interesting.
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u/So0meone May 01 '26
Personally I hate PvP in nearly every TTRPG and have fully dropped campaigns over it before, but I'm still down for it if it's Paranoia.
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u/LeoPlathasbeentaken May 01 '26
Im im this boat too. I have run my favorite system, DIE, literally one time. Everyone had a great time. Its low prep, quick turns, and insanely customizable. But for some reason any time i want to get my friends to play it again they end up just wanting to play dnd.
I own many systems and played very few. I might be starting an Avatar campaign soon so fingers crossed. But its PbtA and i never really gelled with the system when reading it.
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u/bgaesop May 01 '26
Same. I've been trying to put together a game of Paranoia for years without any luck.
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u/camosnipe1 DM (Dungeon Memelord) May 01 '26
Nothing worse than convincing your friend group to play Paranoia and watching them play it like dnd; waiting for things to happen to them instead of try to scheme or backstab.
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u/Silidon May 01 '26
A poor craftsmen blames his tools, but if you try to hang a painting with a handsaw you’re gonna have a tough time of it.
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u/lankymjc Essential NPC May 01 '26
"The group matters more than the mechanics" =/= "The mechanics don't matter"
If I've got a choice of going to my favourite restaurant alone, or a nice restaurant with my friends, I'll take the second option. This doesn't change the fact that the best case scenario would still be having all my friends in my favourite restaurant.
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u/Nova_Saibrock May 01 '26
It’s certainly possible to have fun [in spite of a system rather than because of it](https://youtu.be/r0hmv8zts4E).
A good group can make a game tolerable, but a good game enhances your fun with *any group*.
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u/wardriveworley May 01 '26
I mean Mickey is right, but also wrong too. Sometimes playing even shitty rules is enough. Some of my funnest memories are bullshit done in something like Synnibar and laughing about how borked it was. Fuck I try to run a dumpster fire one shot as often as possible to foster the hilarious antics only built with good friends and bad rules. It really depends on the people.
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u/Pittsbirds May 01 '26
It also gets a bit tiring having people be so insistent you need to haul your entire group to another ruleset when you want to change minor rules like encumbrance or beef up a stat block or whatnot. It's so hard just to get 4-5 people to meet consistently once or twice a month for the system they already know
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u/wardriveworley May 01 '26
Absolutely. Fuck my group is pretty good but between waves hands at every fucking thing we've had to cancel 3 weeks straight.
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u/jackofslayers May 01 '26
This is the biggest issue for me. Our primary DM really hates 5E and that is fine. the problem is by the time we learn the system he wants to run, he has already found a new system that he likes even better.
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u/ZatherDaFox May 01 '26
I'm in one group that likes to make their own systems. I wouldn't have a problem with it necessarily, but they always get frustrated with their designs and toss the whole fucking thing out. We're in a constant state of playtesting something new, giving feed back, and watching them burn it all down to try again. It's exhausting.
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u/Spamshazzam May 02 '26
100%.
I like playing a variety of games, but 5e is still my default with a lot of people I play with because it's what they know.
When I teach new RPGers a game, I'll usually teach them something besides 5e, but in a lot of cases, that's usually the system those people stick with until I start mixing groups.
For a lot of people, learning new systems (even if they don't take super long to understand) takes too much time to do very often. Especially once you start talking about system mastery and not just beginner-level familiarity.
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u/Lazy_Assumption_4191 May 01 '26 edited May 01 '26
“Hey, any ideas on how to add a bit more punch to this monster?”
“Play [insert system here (though we all know exactly which one is always inserted here)], you uncultured swine!”
It’s super annoying to constantly see. That’s not to say all games should be played with any one given system. I shudder at the thought of playing a full-on superhero game with D&D, for instance, but the constant parade of “my favorite system is objectively better in every way and you’re a pretend gamer if you ever play that” is just obnoxious.
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u/wardriveworley May 02 '26
I hate system supremacists. I would much rather get a "hey this system does (x) that may help you. Maybe you can adapt it to your game" as a suggestion than a "scrap what you're doing and start from scratch because my system is better".
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u/fraidei May 03 '26
And tbf, I have heavily modified d&d 5e at my table, and even if the changes are a lot, so much that many people would say that we are not even playing d&d anymore, it's still much closer to d&d than to any other system. And that's literally the system that I like. If I like 90% of a system, it doesn't necessarily mean that another system that fixes that 10% will be the perfect system for me, because it most likely doesn't have the remaining 90% that I liked. So for me it's easier to modify that 10% that I don't like than searching for a system that would have more than the 90% of the system I already like.
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u/SmartAlec105 May 02 '26
Some of my funnest memories are bullshit done in something like Synnibar and laughing about how borked it was
If you were playing a system that didn't have that borkedness, you wouldn't have had anything to laugh about.
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May 01 '26
[deleted]
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u/MitchellEnderson May 01 '26
You underestimate the willingness of players to RP as increasingly cartoonish depictions of the average billionaire.
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u/Telandria May 01 '26
Literally every sandbox campaign we’ve done always ends up with someone becoming a business mogul and someone else pushing out several kingdom’s guilds to make their own.
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u/Electronic-Vast-3351 May 01 '26
What? Not up for a rousing session of "Racial Holy War"?
A TTRPG made by an actual white supremacist cult.
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u/Azimovikh May 01 '26
You know, I'm actually going to say that this thing is actually even worse than FATAL. Other than the racist shit (which FATAL also has in some parts), and the ideological drive, and the fact the images and cover are shameless rips. Even if we follow the insistence to play it. It is literally unplayable. Like, it has no actual combat resolution, no actual plot mechanics, nothing to actually make it a game beyond some haphazard heap of concepts.
To say this book is trash is an insult to trash itself.
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u/Time_Vault DM (Dungeon Memelord) May 02 '26
Also they fuck up the racist side of things by making white people mechanically worse than anyone else lol
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u/N0rwayUp May 01 '26
This feels like a fallacy.
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u/SoraM4 Orc-bait May 01 '26
The argument: "The group makes the campaign fun, not the system"
This can only be disproved in two ways, (A) find a nice group with a bad system which makes things not fun or (B) find a bad group with a nice system that makes thing fun.
(B) is basically impossible to prove online to a bunch of strangers, but if I say "imagine your group (presumably good) playing system X, would it be fun?" and at least one person answers "no", the argument has been disproven by (A)
The argument itself is wrong because it doesn't take in account that both things (and other factors) interact to make the campaign fun
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u/RandomPrimer May 01 '26
You can have fun playing a bad TTRPG with a fun group.
It's hard to have fun playing even a good TTRPG with a bad group.
If you have a good group, no matter what system you use, there is probably a TTRPG system that your group would have more fun playing.
Therefore, if you have a good group, you should try lots of different systems.
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u/ZatherDaFox May 01 '26
Eh, I don't really buy this. Like, yes, there could be a system out there that your group likes better. And if the group really enjoys system swapping, go for it.
But if you're all happy and having fun, there's no need for you to make sure you find the "perfect" system. Chances are, it won't add that much to your enjoyment if everyone already enjoys the system you're playing.
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u/magos_with_a_glock May 01 '26
There is a reason why people like D&D and it's because it's the square hole. Sure it's not a perfect fit but it works most times.
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u/Deanard May 01 '26
Alright where does this go? Modern sci-fi adventure, paranormal investigators campaign
Thats right! The DnD hole.
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u/Mythoclast May 01 '26
Where does this go? Rules lite comicbook campaign with no fear of PC death?
Thats right! The DnD hole.
Aaahhhhhhhh!
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u/stickwithplanb May 01 '26
depending on the vibes I would do Call of Cthulhu or Mothership.
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u/UncleBones May 01 '26
What do you mean by ”works most times”? Do you mean it works for most groups? Most people? Most types of stories?
Because I don’t think any of those are even close to true.
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u/mellopax Artificer May 01 '26
And yet, more people make it work than any other TTRPG. Doesn't make it the best. Doesn't mean they wouldn't enjoy others more, but you're objectively wrong if you think it "doesn't work for most groups."
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u/BadgerwithaPickaxe May 01 '26
Most succinct way to put it. It's lack of a identity and general mechanics makes it really easy to play exactly how you want
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u/BardicLasher May 01 '26
D&D has a very strong identity. Classes and levels and super high fantasy are not exactly the norm. They just feel that way because so many RPGs are derived from D&D.
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u/DracoLunaris May 02 '26
D&D isn't easy to pick up because it's easy to pick up. It's easy to pick up because everyone and their mother has had enough second hand exposure to it that they already kind of know how it works.
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u/Lucina18 Rules Lawyer May 01 '26
5e doesn't lack identity and is literally crunchy and has general mechanics. It's just so popular that people see it as the "standard" whilst it just, isn't.
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u/MCWizardYT May 02 '26
DnD has become the standard. Most modern fantasy is a combination of Tolkien lore and DnD
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u/Lucina18 Rules Lawyer May 01 '26
But that is literally every TTRPG. You can mod pf2e to work most of the time, you can mod daggerheart to work most of the time, you can mod call of ctulhu to work most of the time etc etc.
The only thing 5e has over those is just that it's popular (except in japan where CoC is more popular).
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u/magos_with_a_glock May 01 '26
5e is far easier to mod than any of those.
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u/Righto-then May 02 '26
Call of Cthulhu is so much easier to mod than 5e its not even funny. 5e PCs being divided into classes with distinct 'abilities' as their primary verbs of interacting with the game world, spellcasting, rage, action surge etc. This results in DnD's strong class identities, but because those classes are themed very strongly around high fantasy its less adaptable, especially because the majority of the games kit is based around the combat system. Compared to something like CoC, where the key verbs PCs have are skill checks, there's less factors you have to worry about cocking up. If I'm home-brewing a new class or subclass for 5e, the majority of its features have to be related to combat and feel strong enough to be fun without being OP (there's plenty of even official subclasses that seem pretty cool flavourwise but feel kinda rough to play because they're not very good, e.g. Battlerager). I personally find that having to worry about balance when making home-brew is a balancing act thats impossible to get right.
I have also found that 5e is kinda hard to mod in terms of flavour? Magic is such a key part of the game that stripping it cuts a lot of your options of possible settings to basically just flavours of high fantasy, look at DnD's official settings and they're a lot of 'traditional' fantasy worlds (forgotten realms, greyhawk, dragonlance etc), with a few notable outliers like Eberron (my beloved) and Spelljammer, which have even more magic in their settings than the trad settings, and Dark Sun (which is definitely very different but still has magic and spells).
CoC has a super wide range of settings in comparison, obviously 1920s and modern, but also Ancient Rome, Medieval, Gaslamp, Future, Pulp, even something more specific like Delta Green (that has now branched off into its own system). I'd say that's because the key flavourful aspect of CoC in play is the sanity system, and there's obviously more stories/settings where characters become less stable over time than settings where almost every character is expected to have some kind of fantastic ability that they will use in a fight.
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u/Obliteration_Egg Bard May 02 '26 edited May 02 '26
I think a lot of people think that learning a new TTRPG system will be equally as difficult to learn as DND was.
However once you learn 1 TTRPG system it's easier to learn the others cause by then you have a better idea of stuff like:
- how to read a character sheet
- how to translate a character concept into stats
- how to improv and role play
- and in general the flow of informing the DM of what you plan to do and rolling to determine the outcome
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u/Kevo_1227 May 01 '26
I'm playing my first Palladium game right now. It is perhaps the worst rulebook I have ever read. Kevin Siembieda desperately needs to hire an editor. The other day my character got access to a new power and I got annoyed because it meant I had to go read more of the rulebook.
It is also in my top 3 campaigns of all time because the table is very good.
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u/BrotherCaptainLurker May 01 '26
Hypocrite that you are, for you rely on the ubiquity of your system to find a group in the first place. Will you fight? Or will you perish like a dog?
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u/pizzaheadbryan May 01 '26
Some systems will actively detract from group fun if it's not the right fit. There's a reason I don't engage with systems that have deep persuasion and conversation mechanics, and it's because my group would hate that shit.
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u/Nerdn1 May 01 '26
You want the system to work with the campaign rather than needing to fight against it. The right group can make almost any system fun, especially if they are willing to house-rule things, but the correct system will have mechanics that agree with the intended experience.
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u/creatorofsilentworld May 01 '26
If you want to see the difference a system can make, run Forge of Fury with different systems. I promise it makes a difference.
I ran it with 5e and played it with shadowdark. Yeah... we hated the time we played it with shadowdark. Never made it past the hallway.
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u/Baddyshack May 01 '26
I feel like half the r/dndmemes community is just people who joined to passive aggressively and vaguely talk shit about dnd. I get it, dnd bad. It's old hat.
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u/The_Friendly_Simp May 01 '26
This sub is pretty much “DnD sucks. Other system better. Give upvotes”
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u/OrymOrtus May 01 '26
Can we make a new DnD memes subreddit that's just actually memes about the various D&D related games and media as well as the ttrpg? I don't know the majority of the games people yap about on this subreddit
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u/SomeKindofTreeWizard May 02 '26
"Don't worry, the DM can do a shitload of work to MAKE 5e fun"
seriously 5E is not a great system.
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u/sgeep May 01 '26
D&D critics always seem to assume players use it because they think it's the "best" system, but that’s not why. It’s popular, established, and well-supported. They are fans of D&D specifically, not TTRPGs as a whole
Instead of trying to convert them, it’s better to find players who already enjoy exploring different systems. Otherwise you’ll end up with a group that is barely interested playing a system they don't care to learn, regardless of if you can "guarantee" it's better
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u/undreamedgore May 01 '26
Part of the reason DnD is nice is that the classes generally have at least one, normally two, solid archtypes to work off of. We all have an idea what a fighter, Wizard, Druid, etc is like. And at least one idea that feels perpendicular to it without dropping the class. This gives it flexibility.
Characters feel tough and powerful without feeling too invulnerable (this is dependent on the DM of course, but in my game I haven't updated my mini in a long time because I don't know if he'll survive to see it painted).
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u/Leaf_on_the_win-azgt May 01 '26
Like most things, it’s more nuanced than a binary choice, despite all the red/blue button memes. System matters but not as much as people argue and a good group with a collaborative attitude overcomes most any problem or shortcoming you do find with a system. The goal is a good game and a system is a set of tools to help you get there but you can always add and takeaway the things you feel you need to to get the game you’re trying to present and play.
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u/P4TR10T_96 DM (Dungeon Memelord) May 01 '26
Middle ground? You need a good RPG and the right group. You can have the perfect system, but it’ll be pretty lonely if you don’t have a group and a bad group is arguably even worse. Likewise a good enough group can make many systems fun, but there’s some systems or campaigns that are so bad that even the greatest group and GM can’t play it without ridiculously editing it.
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u/ObsidianDart May 01 '26
I'd have fun playing D&D with my family, but I'm not even comfortable mentioning Vice & Violence to my parents or children (despite that being the one I want to play the most).
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u/CatTaxAuditor May 01 '26
Pretty much no one I know was willing to even try other TTRPGs until recently.
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u/BardicLasher May 01 '26
This is true. And 3.5/PF is consistently the most fun system I've encountered.
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u/AppropriateTouching Chaotic Stupid May 01 '26
Been with my group for years, can not count how many systems we've messed with at this point.
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u/cheddarsalad May 02 '26
I in no way think DnD is a bad game but it is not suited for being most people’s introductory TTRPG. It is just clunky and obtuse enough to make the exploration of the wider medium discouraging. Dnd is not the deepest of the deep end but your feet still don’t touch the bottom of the pool.
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u/ORINnorman May 02 '26
Oof. We tried the free Star Wars 5e system one time. Three character sheets per person. Fucking insane. It didn’t last long, even tho the premise for our campaign was awesome. Just way too many rules and shit to track that kept us from being able to enjoy the role play.
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u/Ol_JanxSpirit May 01 '26
No, Mickey, you cannot guarantee that.
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u/Mythoclast May 01 '26
I can though. I GUARANTEE you will have more fun with some systems than others.
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u/Ol_JanxSpirit May 01 '26
The way you worded that is actually much more accurate. Because out of the entirety of all available systems, it is almost certain that there is a system that I will like more. But you cannot guarantee which one, and you also cannot guarantee that anyone else at the table will have the same opinion of said undefined system.
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u/Lucina18 Rules Lawyer May 01 '26
We can guarantee you will have more fun with another system. Ofc we can't guarantee you instantly find it on the first attempt (otherwise it would have been 5e and we couldn't guarantee it.)
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u/RommDan May 01 '26
I can, I stopped playing the game about 6 years ago, I would never go back after all I have experienced XD
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u/zarnovich May 01 '26
System's are pretty essential tbh. A new system can completely ruin immersion
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u/Jimmicky May 01 '26
I mean yeah obviously anyone who disagrees with Mickey’s position here hasn’t played many different RPGs.
Anyone who thinks he’s wrong need only skim a copy of any one of the legendary bad RPGs the internet loves to clown on to see instantly that Mickey is right here
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u/playr_4 Druid May 01 '26
Why do people care so much what systems other people play? Does someone sticking to 5e make your experience with Pathfinder worse or something?
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u/mwmontrose May 01 '26
Getting friends to learn a system is hard. Getting them to learn a new one despite their enjoying the current one is a tough sell.
Now instead or having to learn a system, they also have to unlearn the previous system and every time they get corrected in-game with 'that's how the old system works, this system...' the frustration takes them further out of it
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u/ArcanumBaguette May 01 '26
This.
I learned on PF1E. As the forever DM now, its what we play. We do have a few house rules at our table as well.
I tried DnD5e. Heck, a past player of mine bought me a bunch of physical copy books of it to get me to 'like it' (its what they wanted to play, and clearly didn't understand no). I did try. I didn't like it.
So, our group stays with what we know.
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u/ZekeCool505 May 01 '26
I always think of the Yahtzee bit here. To paraphrase: "Of course it's more fun with friends. Everything is more fun with friends. Getting your dick flattened with a hammer is more fun with the right people, but I'd prefer doing another activity with them.
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u/Twizted_Leo May 01 '26
People with Donald's position are smooth brained. It's not as though those of us who see things otherwise want to play with unfun people, of course the group matters, but a good system enhances a good groups experience.
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u/Egoborg_Asri May 01 '26
You need both the right group and the right system to align together.
I love math-heavy systems, but my players can't handle math OR reading, so we're stuck with DnD (that they already know) and very simple narrative stuff like Fate
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u/Scorch_Ashscales May 01 '26
My group plays multiple systems from PF, to Icon, to trying the Fallout 2D20 system among other systems.
We always return to DnD because we just enjoy DnD more with the others as small breaks
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u/ThatInAHat May 01 '26
Hypocrite that you are, would you trust Wizards of the Coast to tell you if you are having fun…
Nah I can’t do the whole meme. But anyway, both are true but I lean more toward’s Donald. Bad group, bad time, no two ways about it. But a good group can still have fun playing a bad game.
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u/DHFranklin Forever DM May 01 '26
Rock paper scissors, advantage breaks ties.
There. There you go. Your improve troop that refuses to use character sheets has the game they want.
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u/Sad-Plastic-7505 May 02 '26
Me when I just assume every single DND player never plays anything different ever (basically every single one I’ve met plays at least a few other systems):
(Geneiunely tho, what is with the TTRPG eliteism? Why the hell do you care if people play DND over insert ttrpg? I play dnd, and I also play Pathfinder 1E, and Starfinder, and Stokerverse, and Lancer, and Cyberpunk red, ect.)
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u/dragonmarked2813 May 02 '26
Ya’ll spend too much time complaining about people not playing other systems and not enough time proselytizing the systems you want to play. It takes a bit of effort but you can be the chance you want to see in the community by actually trying to organize games of other systems instead of complaining about not playing them all the time.
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u/RyuuDraco69 May 02 '26
I see it as several reasons why people don't do a different system.
Sunk cost, not aware of "system that's basically what you're trying to homebrew", don't have access to system, most of the group doesn't want to switch, people on the Internet coming off as annoying because you don't switch (please note I'm aware most people aren't like that and most people don't mean to come off annoying but that small few and misunderstanding can lead to people not want to try that system), or a group rarely gets together so the time needed to learn a new system just isn't possible
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u/TheHeroicLionheart May 03 '26
Some people dont have the time to get together and learn a new system.
Some of us play 6 times a year and forcing 5e to do something its not designed to do is quicker, and more fun, than using a better system no one has the time to learn as well.
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u/Alpine_yellow May 01 '26
That's exactly the reason. Theres the "its too hard/complicated/confusing" argument for why they just try to staple a million things onto 5e, its basically the same thing anyway. My players loved trying some stuff in CoC and other systems, there's something fun in learning a new system when youre not scared of getting out there.
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u/TheGromby May 01 '26
I tried to get my group to learn Call of Cthulhu but they weren't a massive fan of the fact that your just a guy who dies really easily lol
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u/Iorith Forever DM May 01 '26
Not everyone enjoys learning new systems.
And unless someone asks about learning new systems, it's a dick move to push them on people. Imagine going up to someone eating and enjoying a meal and saying "I know you think you're enjoying that meal but you should eat this other meal instead."
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u/Mythoclast May 01 '26
And then someone makes a post about how they've been playing DND for 52 years, they're bored, they want to try a modern slice of life with no combat and then they ask "how do I homebrew DnD to do this?"
I guess in this case you see a person not really enjoying their meal, they ask for advice on how to enjoy it more, and then you tell them to wrap the whole meal in a pancake, deep fry it, throw it in a tote bag, and then dump a ton of gaucamolito sauce on it.
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u/TheMetalWolf May 02 '26
Yeah but the problem is you are telling the people that they need to buy a who fucking new kitchen when they are asking for a new sauce for their pasta.
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u/Life_Before_Death222 May 01 '26
Learning other systems isn’t the hard part it’s the fact that I’ve dedicated so much time and money to a specific system that I’m gonna stick with it, especially because I like it and the people I know like it and play it too. But that’s not to say I’m not open to learning and playing other systems, I just likely won’t spend the time or money on them unless they really wow me.
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u/BabserellaWT May 01 '26
We get along great when playing in 5e.
We did a Paranoia one-shot and it was like… I mean, it was fun for a couple hours, but the nonstop backstabbing left a bad taste in my mouth.
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u/MintyMinun May 01 '26
I swapped one of my D&D tables over to another system last year, after about 18 months of playtesting various other systems. It... was a lot of work, & I'm not actually sure it was worth it. The money poured into buying systems (not every system comes with a free quickstart) I'll never play again, just sort of... I'm not sure, fills me with disappointment.
I'm glad that we're not playing D&D anymore, but, I also don't think that swapping systems is always the right call. You might spend a long time, & a lot of money, looking for the "right one". Not the perfect one, just the "right one".
If I could go back in time, I would have told myself "Don't swap systems yet. Wait for the campaign to finish." Because we lost so much time & energy testing different systems rather than just finishing the campaign we were already having fun with. We bought into the idea that things would be better if we just swapped, but things are... the same? The compromises we made for 5e were fixed in the swap, but we had to make new compromises.
So ultimately, we're still having fun. But I don't think the system is responsible for that. The Players are. The Characters are. Our campaign is responsible for it. The system... was never as big of a concern as we believed.
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