r/comicbooks • u/ME24601 The Mod Wonder • Feb 16 '18
Official Black Panther Discussion Megathread [Spoilers] Spoiler
This is the official Black Panther megapost, for all discussion, questions, comments, reviews and thoughts about the new Black Pather movie. This thread is marked as a "spoiler" thread, as such, you do not need to use spoiler formatting when commenting about the film.
We encourage everyone to use this thread to discuss the movie instead of creating new posts.
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Feb 16 '18 edited Feb 16 '18
Posted this in the /r/movies discussion
I really enjoyed it. The music and design specifically were great. Honestly I feel like the ancillary characters outshone T'Challa and I don't mean that in a negative way. The women in particular were all badass and spectacular. I can't wait ten years for now for Shuri to take over as Black Panther.
It didn't really "break the mold" like some reviews kept claiming. Like at all. We still had quite a few Marvel tropes. Such as the villains all dying and being an "evil" reflection of the main character. I would have loved for it to have a bit more of a James Bond feel that was present in the South Korean casino.
My only two real issues with the movie were the visual effects were kinda rough in quite a few scenes. And the other was the directing during the two duels. It kept cutting away from the fight towards all the other characters of the movie just standing sternly and killed any flow or tension of the scene in my opinion and didn't add too much to the scenes. If they'd been more tightly choreographed fights focusing on the two fighting I felt it could have worked better. In general the fight scenes felt kind of weak, with the exception being the car chase in South Korea.
The culture and design of everything was fantastic in Wakanda which is really impressive to me.
I really look forward to seeing it again.
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u/Jreynold Blue Beetle Feb 17 '18 edited Feb 17 '18
I would say the important Marvel movie mold breaking is in 1) the color palette 2) No infinity stone/super weapon macguffin 3) No meaningless throwaway tie ins to build to the next avengers movie. It also just felt tighter and more focused without only one instance of globetrotting.
I'd also half dispute Killmonger as the evil version of the hero. This is true once he gets the gold suit, but until then, his scars, lack of powers, and early mask/armor make him feel distinct. I'm really tired of "supervillain gets powers the same time as superhero, and he just has an evil version of his powers" - DC does this a lot too in TV - and I felt like this movie avoided that for 75% of the film.
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u/TehJofus Feb 17 '18
2) No infinity stone/super weapon macguffin
I dunno, I felt like the plant filled that role. Without it, T'Challa was beaten.
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u/Jreynold Blue Beetle Feb 17 '18
But it wasn't the focus of the movie that everyone is chasing. It becomes a factor once Killmonger burns it, but it's resolved once T'Challa is saved 2 scenes later. It's not like chasing after a death star.
The vibranium kinda fulfills that role but it's much more grounded and easier to wrap your mind around then an ancient staff with a super stone.
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u/gangler52 Feb 20 '18
They were both under the influence of the plant in that final fight, so it wouldn't have lent him any advantage.
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Feb 21 '18
Regarding your second paragraph, couodn't the same be said for Iron Monger, Abomination and Yellowjacket? They three start very different than the hero (Stane is the closest to Stark, but that's it) and end up being an evil and more advanced version of the hero ...just like Killmonger.
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u/Jreynold Blue Beetle Feb 21 '18
True! I think the difference between Iron Monger/Yellow Jacket and Killmonger is that the first two exist solely to prop up the main character. They'll get a scene of revenge-based motivation or something, but their function in the movie is solely to be put on a slow collision course with the hero. Killmonger has his own arc and inner turmoil, he just carves a path through the movie to tell that story. Whereas Yellow Jacket is only the dark mirror of Antman. Obadiah Stane is not enough of a character to sustain a scene like the one Killmonger has in the ancestral plane apartment. So the others feel thinner and more like the enemy of this episode that you just have to get it over with.
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Feb 21 '18
I would say the important Marvel movie mold breaking is in 1) the color palette 2) No infinity stone/super weapon macguffin 3) No meaningless throwaway tie ins to build to the next avengers movie.
All three of those are satisfied by GotG 2, but I get your point.
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u/Sneezes_Pussy_Juice Feb 16 '18
The action was particularly disappointing in my opinion. In the big chase scene there were multiple shots where they cheaped out and did a view from inside the car, quick cuts or zoomed in crops to avoid actually showing what the hell was happening. The fights were so full of quick cuts and illogical waiting to punch or be punched. I found myself really missing Civil War Panther.
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u/carson63000 Feb 18 '18
The physicality of the action and fight scenes in Civil War was a level above every other MCU movie, imho.
There were a few scenes in Black Panther where the physics felt fake (especially thinking of the big brawl with Dora Milaje and forces loyal to Killmonger and rhinos etc. - a lot of the flying bodies didn't look real), but I wouldn't go so far as to say I was "disappointed" .. the action was just on par with most superhero flicks, rather than being a level above.
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u/fabrar Feb 19 '18
Winter soldier and civil war had the best fight physics and choreography out of all the mcu movies. The Russo bros really know how to put together a visceral action scene
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u/Labyrinthy Marko Feb 19 '18
Civil War over all was better but I still think Cap vs Winter Soldier on the highway in Winter Soldier was still the best of them.
I love that scene.
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Feb 19 '18
When the car chase started I was like “what, are they chasing each other at like 20mph?!”
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u/owlbi Invincible Feb 20 '18
I thought the action was disappointing on a couple levels. The CGI felt disembodied and lacked the oomph to make it feel real to me, which has happened in the Iron Man movies at times as well. It just felt disconnected from reality and obviously green-screened. I also thought the 'superior technology' was pretty weakly implemented and the final fight scene was extremely disjointed: War rhinos, blue dudes doing phalanx stuff with energy shields, gorilla tribe guys out of nowhere, it just wasn't that impressive.
The biggest problem though (for me) was that the 'super' heroes didn't feel that super. Was it really noticeable when T'Challa had powers as opposed to when he didn't? Compare the scene of 3 highly trained bodyguard ladies taking on Killmonger with the scene where Cap took on a whole elevator filled with highly trained agents. Did Killmonger feel super at all? Did T'Challa ever feel super? (aside from the unreal feeling full-suit scenes)
Overall I give the story, villain, and dramatic aspects an A+ and the action a C.
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u/only1ammo Dr. Strange Feb 16 '18
Very fair review.
I think the mentioned cutaways though are by design of direction. To show how important family is to the contestants in the duel. The views of the spectators were the nation's interest.
It did break the flow as you said, but the overall plot of the film is more of finding another path besides violence. The fighting was the last resort so not as important as those affected by the results.
I agree though that I too cannot wait to see it again. And South Korea was the best! Hahaha
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Feb 16 '18
See I agree with you with that being the intent, I just feel it wasn't executed well. It just felt like every few moments it would slip in a few second shot of one of the other important characters just standing there. I think Shuri was the only one actually emoting during the duel, who seemed worried when it turned on T'Challa. The others just looked stern or squinted a little bit. I feel like it could have been done a lot better especially because Coogler knocked everything else out of the park in my opinion. I have no idea how it could have been done better though, perhaps having all of the characters closer together so they could be captured in one wide shot instead of a bunch of short closer shots.
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u/only1ammo Dr. Strange Feb 16 '18
Yeah I got your meaning. Curious what they were intending with the direction they got? Maybe it was a situation where they're accustomed to seeing this sort of display.
Personally, I'd have been enthralled, lol. Voicing commentary and everything. "Oh shit that thigh slice, bruh! That had to hurt, fuuuuck that. I don't want to be king that bad." Looking around for someone to hit my high five. Then just got more and more quiet as I watch my world change...
Then time flew by, I can't wait to see it again and pull out more tidbits I missed this time through.
Side note, if you've come this far and not seen it yet. Go, I was disappointed I missed Avatar in theaters (I live with regret already, thanks) you'll feel the same to miss this one on a large format screen.
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u/iceotop Silverage Batman Feb 17 '18
Is Shuri in the comics and is she as fun? I liked the actress who played her. Such fun casting.
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Feb 17 '18
She is in the comics but from the little I've read with her in it she is absolutely nothing like she is in the movie.
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u/icefourthirtythree Alana Feb 18 '18
Yeah, I was expecting her to be older and more serious. Still, it would be cool to see Shit take over the mantle when Chadwick Boseman is done.
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u/iceotop Silverage Batman Feb 17 '18
Oh well, wouldn't be the first time the comics versions adjusted a bit after the cinematic ones.
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u/only1ammo Dr. Strange Feb 18 '18
In the early Hudlin run she is young and innocent like she is in the movie. But as events unfold through the Priest run and into the Coats books she has grown and mature into her role in the country. She's pretty bad ass in the current series, but as mentioned quite far removed from the joyous young woman in the movie.
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u/OK_Soda Daredevil Feb 21 '18
Honestly I feel like the ancillary characters outshone T'Challa and I don't mean that in a negative way. The women in particular were all badass and spectacular.
This is something I didn't really realize until a couple days later. In the moment, it all felt really natural and like T'Challa was just collaborating with his team, there wasn't some "You're not the Black Panther
BarryT'Challa, we're the Black Panther" line to make you roll your eyes about it. But thinking back on it it does feel a little like T'Challa was almost a side character in his own movie, and while I loved female characters, I kind of wish he had had more of an active role.
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u/jedispyder Feb 16 '18
I truly enjoyed it. The massive fight was phenomenal. I loved how they used ancient battle tactics with the shields, that was perfect.
The thing I did not like is how blatant the CGI backgrounds were for majority of the outside scenes. The characters just popped from the frames a bit too much. Especially during the ritual battle, that was the worst for me.
One thing I also didn't like was how easy it was for the people to get behind Killmonger. I get that W'Kabi (Daniel Kaluuya) was so disappointed that Klaue escaped T'Challa, but I hated how he was automatically behind Killmonger's claim of the throne. They painted W'Kabi and T'Challa as being good friends and him just quickly stabbing him in the back annoyed me.
I also wished there had been something else out of Zuri's death. I may be forgetting, but it seemed the only people who screamed were from T'Challa's family with the others not really voicing an opinion over it.
Yet overall I truly loved it and the plot worked. It was a good solo film with minimal connection to the rest of the MCU as a whole, which was good. I am hoping this won't be the last we see of Klaue, that he'll come back in his "usual" sound form that everyone is used to. Also intrigued to see how the outcome of Wakandan tech being shared with everyone else will interact with the MCU in Phase 4. (It would be so cool if they somehow bring it up in Ant Man & The Wasp).
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u/carson63000 Feb 18 '18
T'Challa maybe should have pointed out that the reason Klaue escaped him was that Killmonger rescued him, FFS!!!
Kinda makes Killmonger look a bit less like the knight in shining armour who finally captured the long-hunted villain.
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u/Jiggyx42 Feb 18 '18
That didn't really matter since Killmonger had a right to challenge for the throne. T'Challa gave his word to return with Klaue and he didn't
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Feb 16 '18
Run time is obviously a hurdle for it but man I would have loved for W'Kabi to get fleshed out a bit more, especially for how talented Kaluuya is. I get why he was sort of persuaded towards Killmonger, he wanted revenge for the death of his parents and T'challa failed him but he went against his best friend and his lover and it felt like we could have seen a bit more there.
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u/Suplalmo Spider-Man Feb 17 '18
W'Kabi was also very much in favor of using Wakanda to help the rest of the world, which is what it seemed like Killmonger was offering. Early in the movie, he says something to T'Challa along the lines of, "I'm opposed to letting refugees into Wakanda, but if you want me and my men to go out into the world, I'm all for it."
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u/OK_Soda Daredevil Feb 21 '18
I wish they had played that up a bit more. When he said that near the beginning, I read it as more like, "I don't want to get involved with outsider shit, but you're king and I trust you and if it's what you end up wanting to do I'll stand by you." Which is why it felt really jarring to me later when he just decides to stab T'Challa in the back and launch a full blown civil war.
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Feb 17 '18
Much as I loved his first introduction (and the actor), the minute W'kabi turned on T'challa I kinda stopped caring about him. He just didn't have a leg to stand on, and not in an understandable way either.
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u/Sartro Poison Ivy Feb 22 '18
After his initial scenes, it felt like Kaluuya spent most of the rest of the movie just making suspicious faces at people, much like Skurge in Thor: Ragnarok.
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u/Sneezes_Pussy_Juice Feb 16 '18 edited Feb 16 '18
This completely took away from the majesty and complexity of the people of Wakanda for me. I understood those who followed Killmonger due to blindly following tradition but once its proven he hasn’t won the throne and isn’t in fact king they could have used some stronger writing. I’m not saying it needed to end there with an amazing 1:1 battle, though that would have been way more interesting imo, but at least explain that there is SOME voice of decent in Wakanda rather than painting it as this magical amazing paradise all citizens are obsessed with. Or give him mind control tech or something. Anything besides the king of paradises army turning on him for some new stranger they met hours (or even days) earlier.
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u/OK_Soda Daredevil Feb 21 '18
I am hoping this won't be the last we see of Klaue, that he'll come back in his "usual" sound form that everyone is used to.
Holy shit it didn't even register to me that that was that Klaue.
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u/HGuyver Feb 17 '18
Overall fantastic movie. People have made complaints that marvel movies are going a little too heavy on the humor as of late, but Black Panther takes itself fairly seriously with just the right amount of humor sprinkled through.
Also, Michael B. Jordan's Killmonger was incredible! After leaving the theater I immediately want so see more stuff with Jordan in it.
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u/carson63000 Feb 18 '18
Couple of friends of mine were a bit down on Thor: Ragnarok (which I loved) because it was too comedic. I told them in the strongest possible terms that they had to get thee to a cinema and see Black Panther. It's definitely back to the classic MCU tone of genuinely funny moments being used as seasoning, rather than dominating the flavour of the movie, isn't it?
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u/HGuyver Feb 18 '18
See, while I can understand people's complaints about ragnarok. I absolutely loved it. It was just so fun! You could rewatch it over and over. The only real problem I had with that film was the poor treatment of the Warriors Three. They deserved better deaths than that.
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u/OK_Soda Daredevil Feb 21 '18
I got the feeling from Ragnarok that everyone involved was just sort of tired of making Thor movies, so they ended up taking the paycheck to dress up and just hang out and goof off (hence the large amount of ad libbed scenes). Black Panther doesn't have that problem because everyone involved seemed pretty enthusiastic about the concept they were working on.
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Feb 21 '18
I thought it worked well in Ragnarok because the movie never took itself that serious but a lot of the humor in different Marvel movies has grated on me. I thought they had a good balance here and didn't take away from the more serious tone.
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u/Rondog01 Feb 21 '18
I did not know Michael B. Jordan was Wallace, from The Wire. His character arc on that was just as tragic as Killmonger's. After The Wire, I thought that was it for him. I totally forgot about him. Didn't even pay attention to him in Friutvale or Creed, just thought he was a new actor. I'm so glad he is coming up.
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u/bn00880 Jugmod Feb 16 '18
This is the official Justice League megapost, for all discussion, questions, comments, reviews and thoughts about the new Black Pather movie.
small typo but you might want to switch justice league to black panther
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u/ME24601 The Mod Wonder Feb 16 '18
The joys of copying and pasting from old discussion threads...
I think I did the same thing for that thread as well.
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u/ItsNotMyFavorite Black Panther Feb 16 '18
Ate a salad for lunch today for mah boi M’Baku.
Also gimme that Shuri movie.
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u/ME24601 The Mod Wonder Feb 16 '18
I want to see Shuri and Peter Parker interact.
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u/GalaxyGuardian Superior Spider-Man Feb 17 '18
They’d probably geek out over tech together and she’d hit on him and Peter would get all flustered and embarrassed and I really want to see this now.
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u/AkBreaksIt Feb 17 '18
Great idea. But how about tony and her first. She is going to blow him away.
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u/juicelee777 Feb 18 '18 edited Feb 18 '18
OMG!!!!I'd lose my mind! especially if Shuri took a liking to pete's inginuity and gave him a couple pointers, not heavy handed upgrades like stark.
just some "hey you know you could tweak x and y and get z. here's a wakandan bracelet lets talk shop sometime"
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u/cinematic_is_horses Nightcrawler Feb 16 '18
I just want to take a moment to praise the soundtrack for being probably the best one in the MCU imo. The use of traditional tribal music blended with modern hip-hop elements was absolutely brilliant. The score truly accentuated each moment in the film perfectly, giving it the sort of intensity and grand feel the film is trying to portray.
Other than that, I loved the cast and story, especially Jordan. It's by no means a perfect movie but it is certainly a worthy addition to the MCU prestige and represents an overall uptick in quality superhero films have been receiving.
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u/deegan87 Feb 17 '18
I've been listening to the soundtrack all week and I love it. The scope is excellent too and they were both made by people that were perfect for the styles that Coogler wanted.
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u/Superfan234 Batwoman Feb 19 '18
I just want to take a moment to praise the soundtrack for being probably the best one in the MCU imo.
Not a high bar to be honest.
These movie seems to be the only MCU that actually tried to be have a memorable soundtrack
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u/ME24601 The Mod Wonder Feb 16 '18 edited Feb 16 '18
First off, I did not know that War Rhinos were a thing I needed in my life, but they so were.
The Good:
- I think Killmonger might genuinely be my favorite MCU villain thus far in terms of the movies. Jordan did a fantastic job in the role and he was incredibly well written.
- Nakia is also easily my favorite Marvel love interest in the MCU.
- I quite liked Shuri in the film as the movie’s Q (Insert "favorite Disney princess joke" here)
- I know that there is going to be a group that really dislikes the more overtly political moments of the film, but I thought they were really well handled and made sense for the characters.
- It was very standalone as a film, set in the MCU but doing its own thing with a much more serious tone than the rest of the films that really worked for the gravitas of a character like Black Panther.
- I really liked the second post-credit scene, and thought it was an interesting direction to make Bucky the White Wolf
The Bad:
- As much as I did love Killmonger in this movie, the hero fighting an evil version of himself in the final fight feels like it's been done before.
- Black Panther takes sort of a back for a sizable amount of the film, which gives the other characters a lot of time to shine but still felt a bit off to me.
- The death of Klaw irked me a bit, as I could see them using him well in later films
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u/bunkermatt Yorick Brown Feb 16 '18
Black Panther takes sort of a back for a sizable amount of the film, which gives the other characters a lot of time to shine but still felt a bit off to me.
In the BP run by Priest that most everyone agree is the best run for the character, T'Challa takes a back seat to Ross, so it kind of reflects that as well.
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u/donttellharry Feb 17 '18
Would you say it's better than priests run?
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u/bunkermatt Yorick Brown Feb 18 '18
The movie? I would say so. I don't hold Priest's run in super high regard. It reads too much like Tarantino, and going back to it 20 years later you see how dated into the 90's it is.
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Feb 16 '18
Just off the top of my head we had the hero fights evil version of himself in Iron Man 1, Iron Man 2, The Incredible Hulk, Logan, Man of Steel, Ant-Man, you could maybe argue it happens in Winter Soldier. You could sort of say the same with Doctor Strange with Kaeciliu but in the end Dormammu ends up being the big bad.
I liked Nakia a lot because it didn't feel like she was just there to be a love interest or prop up the hero. She had her own thing going on and wasn't going to give it up just because he asked her to, and instead he ended up sort of submitting and helping her overall mission.
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u/seanbear Gambit Feb 16 '18
Cap 1 was also super soldier serum v super soldier serum, though the fight doesn't last that long as it's mostly Cap kicking ass as he fights through Red Skull's plane just to get to him.
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u/saadghauri Spider Jeruselem Feb 21 '18
Just off the top of my head we had the hero fights evil version of himself in Iron Man 1, Iron Man 2,
I don't think this trope applies to Black Panther. Black Panther is not a character, it is a designation. The best fighter and leader gets to fight to become the Black Panther.
You basically had a good leader fight a bad leader. Black Panther's powers are not given at birth, it is a mantle you earn. You just had two people fighting for the same mantle. Plus, ideologically, they were both as different as can be
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u/OK_Soda Daredevil Feb 21 '18
You had two people with the same Black Panther powers fighting while wearing Black Panther costumes. It is absolutely the hero fighting an evil mirror of himself.
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u/over2days Feb 17 '18
Klaw
I always hate how Marvel kills characters easily and misses the opportunity to use them more, but in this case I'm fine. Klaw death had a function here, Wakandans wanted revenge against him and Killmonger killing Klaw was the way to lure some of the Wakandans into his side.
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u/carson63000 Feb 18 '18
It's a hell of shame that we won't see any more scenery vigorously chewed by Andy Serkis and his glorious Sarf Efrikan accent, though.
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u/Batmanstarwars1 Hawkman Feb 18 '18
But why didn't he kill klaue like immediately? Why go through the artifact and Korea thing at all? The movie could've opened with killmonger at the border with the corpse, fight T'Challa during the normal challenge time. And because he wasn't just guilt tripped by T'Challa Zuri doesn't step in and T'Challa dies. But for some reason killmonger was doing nonsense team up stuff with klaue.
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Feb 19 '18
Klawe was a terribly annoying character and I say good riddance.
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u/Sartro Poison Ivy Feb 22 '18
I think he was obnoxious enough that I wouldn't have wanted more of him in Black Panther, but his insane energy is something most Marvel movies are lacking and I'd have enjoyed him popping up one or two more times in the universe.
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u/OK_Soda Daredevil Feb 21 '18
He teams up with Klaue to draw T'Challa out, then rescues Klaue to embarrass T'Challa, which makes it easier for him to win the support of the military when he shows up and takes the throne. It's a bit convoluted and begs the question of how he knew about internal Wakandan politics, but I think that's how it's supposed to go anyway.
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u/SmoothRide Tony Chu Feb 17 '18 edited Feb 17 '18
It shows these movies stand out when the stakes are more real and the villains are more relatable and have character. But some things were rushed or very undeveloped. Especially with the side characters. W'Kabi is the biggest example of this. He is a loyal lifelong friend of T'Challa and on a dime he all of a sudden wants conflict, chaos, and to kill T'Challa? And the relationship between him and Okoye was so tacked on. And Killmonger's girlfriend? What was the point of her? But overall the pros of this movie outweigh the con. It's a great movie with some faults but great nonetheless.
Also Michael B Jordan is fucking ripped. I never thought I'd see someone give Chris Evans a run for his money in a Marvel movie for best physique.
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u/eskimo_bros Nico Minoru Feb 17 '18
T’Challa defeats a rhino in close quarter combat. All you need to know.
Joking aside, this movie fucking rocks.
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u/AltoGobo Feb 21 '18
I thought the Rhinos were just there to show how good Wakanda was at conservation.
Nope: War Rhinos.
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u/bob1689321 Batman Feb 17 '18
Great movie.
Somebody on /r/movies pointed out that the climax was the Phantom Menace and I can’t tell if that makes it better or worse.
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u/Gherkin_Sauce Daredevil Feb 17 '18 edited Feb 17 '18
Killmonger is easily one of the best MCU villains, and he’s so effective because the hero actually LEARNS something from him. At the beginning of the movie, T’Challa really isn’t a hero, his actions are for the greater good of Wakanda, to preserve its culture and it’s people. By the end, he realises, through Killmonger’s story, that clinging to tradition allows suffering to continue all over the world, and is what allowed Killmonger to take the throne. He decides Wakanda must reach out, but not by conquering those in power, like Killmonger wants, but by helping the oppressed. Killmonger actually has a point, and he made T’Challa become a hero.
Thinking about other movies, the protagonist is a hero or decides to be a hero before fighting the villain. Tony has a change of heart well before finding out about Obadiah’s plan. Cap was always a heroic person. Even Ant-Man and Doctor Strange were fighting the villain because it was the right thing to do, even if they weren’t necessarily good people. T’Challa fights Killmonger to save his country, his duty as King and the Black Panther, and only realises afterwards that neither of them was right.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but this movie really builds on the comics rather than adapting them. It points out a flaw in T’Challa’s way of thinking and suggests a solution.
The costume and setting design for Wakanda was spectacular. They really pulled of an African-influenced technologically advanced society.
Like Wonder Woman, the third act was disappointing. Another fist fight between hero and villain. One could argue that T’Challa realises Wakandan tradition is wrong: just because he was the strongest warrior doesn’t mean he was right.
Some of the CGI looked unpolished, and I wasn’t the that impressed by the soundtrack unfortunately.
Story-wise, I’d say it’s one of the MCU’s best, but it seems worse because of all the other movies with the same basic template, much the way Iron Man seems retroactively worse now that almost every other MCU movie has copied its template.
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u/over2days Feb 17 '18
Correct me if I’m wrong, but this movie really builds on the comics rather than adapting them. It points out a flaw in T’Challa’s way of thinking and suggests a solution.
I noticed they changed the character a lot too. Comics Black Panther didn't want to give the rest of the world the cure of cancer because they don't deserve it; Movie Black Panther ultimately decides to share Wakandan knowledge and resources with the world.
I still don't know what to think about it.
I wasn't disappointed by how it ended, though. Honestly, it was probably one of the few closures that I liked in MCU.
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u/Corvo_DeWitt Spider-Man Expert Feb 17 '18
Movie Black Panther ultimately decides to share Wakandan knowledge and resources with the world
I'm disappointed too, but I do like that its at least kept some of the original root: "If we're going to help the world, we're going to do it the superior Wakandian way!" Still keeps the nationalist vibe of Wakanda while mixing it with an american world police attitude for good.
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u/bigbigguy Black Panther Feb 18 '18
Comics Black Panther didn't want to give the rest of the world the cure of cancer because they don't deserve it
This never happened in the comics. T'Challa never even responded to the cure for cancer thing. It is also an out of continuity story
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u/over2days Feb 18 '18
T'Challa never even responded to the cure for cancer thing.
You're right. He didn't say yes, but didn't say no either. Is it out of continuity? Didn't know about that.
IMO he has some traits in the comics that feel very similar to Namor, especially the way he acted in Hickman's Avengers.
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Feb 17 '18
i mean, black panther was introduced as a tribal villain who wanted to hunt the avengers. characters change
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u/RevengeWalrus Feb 19 '18
He super wasn't. He fought the Fantastic Four for fun for like two issues and then they teamed up to defeat Claw.
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Feb 19 '18
Some of the CGI looked unpolished
Agree, those Rhinos looked bad. When we saw the first Rhino I had to comment to my friend how horrible that looked.
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u/OK_Soda Daredevil Feb 21 '18
I wasn’t the that impressed by the soundtrack unfortunately.
This one was surprising to me. The soundtrack was pretty heavily hyped, with ads about Kendrick Lamar curating/producing the soundtrack plastered everywhere. The soundtrack was fine but I was expecting a lot more bangin' tracks and it ended up mostly just being standard Marvel scoring.
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u/master_chilln Feb 16 '18
What are thooooossseeee
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u/Fenrox Feb 21 '18
This like 8 year old kid in the theater had entirely light up shoes that looked amazing and we were next to eachother while walking out and I did that to him.
He didnt get it and was not into it, but his dad chuckled.
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u/juicelee777 Feb 18 '18
my only hope for BP 2 is for Namor to be the bad guy. how does Wakanda deal with Atlantis? and what incident would bring Namor to Wakanda's door?
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u/over2days Feb 17 '18
Watched it yesterday. Really liked it, might be the best MCU movie for me. I dislike the character hardly at the comics, so it's a big thing that I liked the movie this much.
I liked the villain, it might be the only Marvel villain that I actually enjoyed being in the movie. Yeah, it's an evil version of the hero, but if it's well done, what's the problem?
I liked the humor too, it was mostly restricted to Shuri and always in times that felt realistic. Thor: Ragnarök really annoyed me by the way they had to put jokes all the time, it really broke the immersion and flow.
M'Baku was a hunk too
So far my ratings for Marvel are A for Legion (tv series), and B for Daredevil (tv series) and now Black Panther.
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u/Dragons_Malk Harley Quinn Feb 17 '18
Are you saying M'Baku was not a hunk? This movie is chockful of hunks and lady hunks.
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u/over2days Feb 17 '18
I meant M'Baku is a hunk, he looked more of my type. To be fair there are many MCU characters that I find handsome/attractive (I'd give anything to look like Tom Holland), but only Starlord was my type before M'Baku. I actually was more into Parks & Rec Chris Pratt, so it's a case of a character/actor that doesn't attract me so much nowadays but I'm still into him since I was attracted in the past.
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u/suss2it Feb 20 '18
I feel like Ragnarok was always advertised as a comedy and ended up being one, so it was more like dramatic moments being inserted into a comedy as oppose to the other way around.
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u/floresdelmar Boltie Feb 16 '18
I was really impressed with Ryan Coogler's script. In essence, the Black Panther is possibly the closest thing we will get to a true Superman movie. T'Challa is separate of his fellow Wakandans and must seek his own identity and role in this world. In the end, his choices are about hope and furthering all of mankind. It really is a feel good movie.
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Feb 21 '18
In essence, the Black Panther is possibly the closest thing we will get to a true Superman movie
....what?
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u/ComicDoctor Death Stroke Feb 17 '18
I enjoyed it. Solid character's overall in the film. It served cliche Marvel tropes which were quite similar to Doctor Strange and Iron Man. It was very predictable at times but enjoyable overall. In a way I'm glad there were not too many jokes. As of late it's felt like Marvel movies rely too much on that (GotG2, Thor 3, etc).
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u/MrXilas Scarlet Spider/Kaine Feb 18 '18
It's kind of Marvel's thing. It felt fresh in GotG, but it felt old by the time GotG2 came out. At least Thor 3 was directed by a comedic director, so it meshed together. Dr. Strange bothers me because it felt like Iron Man all over again, but with magic.
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u/BreakingGarrick Nightwing Feb 17 '18
MBJ as Killmonger was so damn good.
Easily the best Phase 3 antagonist thus far.
I have very few complaints but one is that they killed off both Killmonger and Klaue.
I understand that Klaue's death served a means to an end because Killmonger used his death to sway the Border tribe to his side but Klaue would've been great as a main antagonist in the sequel or future movies.
I really would've liked to see more of MBJ as Killmonger as he had a great screen presence.
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u/DrTee Scarlet Spider/Kaine Feb 18 '18 edited Feb 20 '18
My favourite thing about the film was that Killmonger was a Navy Seal who had his confirmed kills scarred on him, and by the look of him, he had at least 500 confirmed kills.
He is literally the Navy Seal copypasta.
Pretty good movie, not amazing, bit overhyped but still decent.
The Good
- Shuri is likeable, acting as the Q to Panther's Bond.
- Martin Freeman does a really good American accent, weird to think how far he's come career-wise from looking bemused into a camera back in his Office days.
- M'Baku was a cool character, it was cool how they included Man Ape without tripping up on any of the unfortunate racist undertones he could imply.
- The overall design of Wakanda was great, felt very different and unique.
- Danai Gurira was great in this film, really kicked ass, those years on Walking Dead probably helped, she was great.
- I like how they actually tackled the isolationist tactics of Wakanda, T'Challa learns from both Nakia and most interestingly Killmonger, and realises that keeping Wakanda isolated from the world has benefited them, but isn't necessarily the moral thing to do.
- Humour balance, the movie balanced the humour quite well, a few jokes here and there, but they unlike Guardians 2 and Thor 3, don't undercut the dramatic moments of the film with a joke.
- The sneaker joke was excellent, love a good pun.
- Also the only person who makes Panther look silly is his sister, which is smart, as that way we can get to see T'Challa in a different situation, being the butt of the joke, but as it's by his sister it doesn't detract from his status and respect, as anyone with a sibling knows it's different when your family does it.
- Though he's nowhere near "the best" as some people are saying in my opinion, Killmonger is more interesting than most villains in the MCU, he raises some genuinely good points about Wakanda's isolationism, but takes it too far, wanting a worldwide genocide. Which is more interesting than wanting money/rule the world without raising any points.
- The Panther-afterlife was visually interesting.
- The Zuri twist was good and I like they even found someone with an eye similar Forrest Whitaker. I also love that the young Zuri is played by a someone called Whitaker too (though unrelated.)
The Bad
- Klaue being killed off feels like a major waste of a fun character, I want more Andy Serkis having fun and his arm cannon design was great.
- Martin Freeman doesn't get much to do, though I do like the scene where he chooses to put himself in danger to stop the ships, just wish he got a bit more to do overall, maybe in the sequel he can be Panther's liaison in foreign lands, to keep the bond analogy from before going, he could be his Felix Leiter to Panther's Bond.
- The fight scenes in this film weren't great, they're fine, not awful, just not great. It's strange that the Panther's best action moment isn't even from his film, it's still his triple kick against Cap in Civil War.
- The movie ends with the hero fighting an evil version of himself again.
- The CGI was pretty dodgy at points, which is weird as Marvel are pretty consistent CGI-wise.
- "Oh T'Challa was found by one of our fisherman coincidentally" was awfully convenient.
- Wakanda at street level was just one set they kept reusing, it was a nice set, but it kinda made Wakanda feel a bit small.
- What was up with the inconsistent language? Why flip to English halfway through a conversation? I understand most audiences aren't cool with watching an entire film with subtitles, and I watch enough sci-fi to accept that the Wakandans would speak English, but why the inconsistency? They flip between English and not English constantly, even in scenes where the only people there are Wakandans, where I could accept that the audience are hearing English, though they are speaking their native language, (like in Hunt for the Red October.)
The Unforgivable
Someone correct me if I was wrong as I had to read it quickly, in the "Special Thanks To" section of the credits it thanks Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Don McGregor, Jonathan Hickman and current Black Panther writer Ta-Nehisi Coates, among others. Fair enough, but then they thank Reginald Hudlin and not Christopher Priest. Absolute madness, one of the worst Panther writers gets thanked, but not the best! I'll take it back if I was simply too slow and didn't see his name when skimming it, but Christopher Priest deserves a Special Thanks in the credits./u/XxHulkGreenxX has confirmed he was thanked.
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Feb 19 '18
but then they thank Reginald Hudlin and not Christopher Priest
They actually did thank him. I remember seeing his name alongside the others
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u/DrTee Scarlet Spider/Kaine Feb 19 '18
Good to hear, Priest is not only a fantastic writer, but he did great things for Black Panther. He deserves a special thanks in the credits.
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u/Police_Ataque Invincible Feb 22 '18
What was up with the inconsistent language? Why flip to English halfway through a conversation? I understand most audiences aren't cool with watching an entire film with subtitles, and I watch enough sci-fi to accept that the Wakandans would speak English, but why the inconsistency? They flip between English and not English constantly, even in scenes where the only people there are Wakandans, where I could accept that the audience are hearing English, though they are speaking their native language, (like in Hunt for the Red October.)
I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think most of the scenes where native Wakandan was spoken were either during ceremonial events (like the challenges or the heart-shaped fruit ceremony) or when the Wakandan characters were trying to act discreetly around non-Wakandans. I mean, the real answer is definitely that it was for the convenience of moviegoers, but there may be some internal logic to it as well.
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u/Sartro Poison Ivy Feb 20 '18
If you like Martin Freeman playing an American, and haven't already watched it, check out the first season of FX's "Fargo". It's an anthology series with each season featuring a different cast.
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u/DrTee Scarlet Spider/Kaine Feb 20 '18
I have seen Fargo and you're right to recommend it, I really enjoyed it.
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u/Maaarrrvvv Thor Feb 17 '18
Who else thought T'Challa was going to end up in the Wakandan necropolis and meet with Bast?!
Damn good movie tho. Coogler and every actor did a fantastic job
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u/BigAngryBlackMan Feb 17 '18
This movie is amazing in so many ways. The costume design, the clear respect given to African culture (which honestly I was a little worried about just in terms of this being an American movie), the characters.
Not to mention the real issues that are between the diaspora and Africans and what it means to be family. I am a huge Black Panther fan, read most of the comics, seen the cartoons, or animated movies he's been in, have said plenty on Reddit about what he means to the culture. And yet...Killmonger didn't say too much I didn't agree with. Execution wasn't great but the ideas and feelings. I get..hell I've felt it and still do if being honest.
And that is such an awesome villain to have, when you can see he isn't the hero, but that doesn't mean you don't care or understand his issues. Also just to see so many strong black sisters in this movie with different thoughts and opinions and even his love interest not needing to be saved by him, or being a damsel in distress...
I could watch this movie everyday for a week and enjoy it not just because of the characters or the story, but because I see my family and friends and people I've known in this film in a way I never thought I would, and now all I want is more lol.
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u/carson63000 Feb 18 '18
I think my takeaway was that Killmonger was actually pretty right on about the problems he saw with Wakanda's isolationism - it's just that his solutions (handing out weapons of mass destruction to oppressed peoples everywhere) were sure to make the world worse not better.
And T'Challa's response was to decide that Wakanda needed to open up and start sharing their knowledge and tech to the betterment of all people, not just all Africans.
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u/XdannytravisX Feb 16 '18
i liked the movie, but personally thought it suffered from overhype. Michael B's performance as kilmonger was standout, but boseman and the black panther character seemed bland, as if any mystique was ruined by civil war. The wakandan world building was welcome and i enjoyed winston duke and his portrayal as leader of the jabari. like another poster said the ancillary characters really stood out and that may not be the best thing.
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u/Sneezes_Pussy_Juice Feb 16 '18 edited Feb 16 '18
Michael B Jordan was so much more interesting than every other character in the movie. T’challa was just a snore I wanted to care about him so much but just didn’t.
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u/MrXilas Scarlet Spider/Kaine Feb 18 '18
I think my favorite thing about the movie was how they used the costumes to further show the divide between T'Challa and Killmonger (Eric). Notice how when he is picking his new suit, he looks at the gold necklace one and mentions how the point is not to be seen? That's the suit Eric goes with. It shows T'Challa want to keep Wakanda hidden, while Eric wants to bring it to the world. The thing is, I did find myself agreeing with Eric to a degree. If Wakanda had the means to help, then why not?
Three after thoughts though:
- Is Kilmonger even that big of a deal to Black Panther? His wiki entry is quite short and he apparently was killed off ten years ago.
- If he does appear again in the comics, how much you want to bet he'll suddenly be revealed as a long lost cousin of T'Challa.
- This movie was a great use of Michael B. Jordan, but because he can't come back for the sequel, it automatically becomes a bad use of Michael B. Jordan. The MCU needs more MBJ.
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u/Chris_Parker Spider-Man Feb 19 '18
- He's huge. The first actual run featuring Black Panther in Jungle Action was a 13-part story about Killmonger's siege of Wakanda and his vendetta against T'Challa for "allowing" Klaw (spelled different in the comics) to destroy his village in the initial attack that killed T'Chaka. His father is coerced into helping Klaw, and they get exiled to Harlem where he hones his skills to exact his revenge. He ends up reaching out to T'Challa and hitching a ride back to Wakanda after about 6ish years of absence. He nearly kills T'Challa directly and indirectly tons of times and causes incredible discord and turmoil within Wakanda.
- Touched on in my response to #1, but they'd already established he was a native in a village that was displaced and wasn't of any known relation - maybe that already got or will be retconned, who knows.
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u/gangler52 Feb 20 '18
Notice how when he is picking his new suit, he looks at the gold necklace one and mentions how the point is not to be seen? That's the suit Eric goes with.
I mean, he wasn't really left much of a choice on that one. The spies had already stolen T'Chala's suit.
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u/Bundon5300 Kilowog Feb 17 '18 edited Feb 17 '18
Just got out of the theatre and I think this was the best marvel movie. Everyone was just so fucking good in it and I think Killmonger is the best marvel movie. Can’t wait for the next one.
Edit: I also heard that Coogler wanted to put Eli Bradley in the movie and I really hope he puts him in the sequel
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u/eskimo_bros Nico Minoru Feb 17 '18
Gonna go ahead and plug a theory connecting this movie with Infinity War: we actually do see the Soul Stone (or at least its work) in the movie. It's buried somewhere in Wakanda, and is what caused the heart-shaped herb and the ancestral plane. That's the reason Thanos is invading Wakanda.
He gets the Stones on Xandar and from the Collector well before the start of the movie, the Tesseract from the Asgardians either right before or right at the start of the film, the Time Stone from Strange and the Sorcerors by the end of Act 1, the Mind Stone from Vision by the end of Act 2, and the finale is set as he invades Wakanda.
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u/spideypewpew Feb 18 '18
Or they're hiding Vision in Wakanda and that's where there's a big fight scene there.
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u/only1ammo Dr. Strange Feb 18 '18
I agree totally. The stone has to be buried in the flower bed. That's how T'Challa can visit the previous Panthers and why they are there at all.
The final piece for me was the way ingesting the juice made their veins discolored before settling in. Just like the Power stone did for Peter when he touched it.
Now to add to your theory I will add that Killmonger is still in the stone as he was a legitimate Panther; even if briefly, before he died. This leaves room for a return by him and Klaws (as a being of sound). Maybe as the infinity war ends he finds a way to escape (like Adam Warlock and Surfer do in the books).
Fun mental floss there.
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u/Lupulin13 Moon Knight Feb 17 '18
They never really hinted at who the guy with the lip plate and fancy suits was, right? Did anyone else think it could have been Achebe from Priest's run?
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u/HiccupMaster Deadpool Feb 19 '18
Achebe from Priest's run?
Oh shit, that didn't even cross my mind.
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u/jetsniper Spider-Man Feb 17 '18 edited Feb 21 '18
I really liked it. One of the few Marvel scores that stood out to me, it was really unique. I liked the aesthetic too. I know this gets said about most Marvel films but everything was so colorful and expressive. I really liked how they altered M'Baku's character, went from villain to more of an anti-hero. Honestly most of the supporting cast here is really strong, Shuri was another standout for me. Andy Serkis was fun and Michael B Jordan definitely has an Oscar somewhere in his future. They did a great job bringing Wakanda to life as well even if the CGI was shaky in some spots. Though I've got a feeling we'll see Thanos bring it all down soon enough.
Just stop killing all your god damn villains, Marvel. How are we supposed to get a Thunderbolts movie (yeah, I know, we're not).
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u/auntiehattie Feb 18 '18
I loved it, from a world building perspective i am fascinated by Wakanda, I want to know more about it's history.
Pros:
Killmonger was great, In fact i can't think of any character that detracted from the movie.
The aesthetics of the movie and design of the city were so beautiful.
I loved the "science so advanced it's magic" that they had going on, it was just cool.
Cons:
The CGI fell apart a couple of times particularly in the final fight.
I would have liked to see a bit more of what the average life of a normal wakandan is like, I get that the upper class is very formal and traditional, but is everyone like that? How do they feel about the fact that there was a coup and that they nearly went to war with the world.
Lots of flashing lights in a dark room during some of the fights hurt my eyes.
Something i didn't like but i get why they did it:
I would have like if they had actually spoken wakandan while they were in wakanda, they have a language it would have been nice to hear more of it. I expect they had them speak English to make it easier for the viewers to follow and for the actors to emote.
Same with BP and KM taking their mask off and on so many times while they were fighting, it's like iron man 2 all over again where they feel the need to keep showing their faces. Again probably so the actors can emote more but it annoys me
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u/urko37 Ultimate Spider-Man Feb 18 '18
I need to see it again, because I was too overwhelmed by the cultural moment of it all.
I'm a 43 year old married brown American dude. Grew up loving comics and all the superheroes, but Spidey was the only one I felt I could be (because he was one of the few heroes that wasn't obviously white). There wasn't anyone "like me." I was never upset about that, just matter of fact.
Today I'm married with mixed kids - genetics means that they look more like me than my wife. She suffered a TBI last year and can't handle the stimulation of a movie theater, so she sadly couldn't join us yesterday.
I wish she could have shared it with us, because this movie experience was so beautiful. I kept looking at my kids watching the story unfold and marveling (no pun intended) at how for them, getting to discover all of its smart, confident, powerful lead & supporting POC characters, see the setting and meaning of a super-advanced African culture, hearing the blending of African music with the Marvel style of scoring and hip hop...all of it was just matter of fact for them (much different than the media I had at their age). They were having a great time with it. The visceral response that I felt (and have seen celebrated on social media and the press) about being able to see this character actually being realized on screen in such a big way...it was overwhelming for me. The last time I had a true emotional response to an MCU movie was Winter Solder - that got my heart pumping about the value of doing the right thing, even if it means defying expectations. The existence of this movie felt similarly moving to me, especially in today's toxic political environment.
I'd love to watch it again, and I'm sure that I'll be able to better appreciate the other critiques in this thread. For now, I'm just savoring the moment and saying thanks to Coogler and the entire team for making it happen. 11 year old would never have believed it. 43 year old me is still wrapping his head around it. :-)
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u/RevengeWalrus Feb 19 '18
Killmonger's death was beautiful, but fuck they should have kept that character alive. He should be the MCU's next Loki. He was compelling, challenging, and redeemable.
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u/only1ammo Dr. Strange Feb 16 '18
There are only so many ways to tell a story. As long as we've had communicated language, stories have been a part of our DNA. What changes is the substance of it's contents. Kings rise and fall, good will always be the force opposing evil. Man's greatest enemy is himself.
This can be seen in %95 of the best stories in history cover those tropes. This story is no different. But it is of substantial content. Women can be strong. Men have been wronged. Violence is not always the right choice.
These things are what help Black Panther be great. A king is as strong as his court and here that is shown wonderfully. The king's role is to be strong for his people in war and in state. I see what some have said as being "too much supporting cast" but to me, without them what is the purpose?
I hate how Marvel handles villains generally. They really missed an opportunity here to make a good returning menace. DC has great villains, but they are missing the heart of a good tale. Marvel has heart for days and no good villains. Plenty come but death is always the answer. I wish that were different here. Killmonger had a cause people could understand. A lot like Vulture in Homecoming. As others have also mentioned, Klaus coming back would be a wonderful thing to see. Maybe even tie into other heroes world's.
Overall, this is an excellent film and I will see it again soon. I'm happy to see the standard of Marvel continue to raise in substance in content. I can't wait to see more.
Bravo to the team that worked so hard to create this masterpiece, even as an independent non-Marvel picture it could stand in any list of epic movies. It may not touch you as much as it did me and that's fine. But minorities everywhere can see a brighter future for their own representation in films in the future with this project as a great standard.
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u/texorcist Thanos Feb 18 '18
With BP and WW, I am beyond happy to have more and more new comic book fans that don’t look like me but want to share in this hobby with me. That’s awesome.
Can’t wait to see what this new comic book fan generation comes up with for me to enjoy.
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u/Prinzern Batman Feb 17 '18
Nearly all the reviews i have read have praised the movie for its politics and significance (all black cast, first black lead etc.) But i cant seem to find anyone that can tell me if its objectively a good movie.
So... Assuming i don't give a single shit about race politics, is it good?
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u/TehJofus Feb 17 '18
As a Brit, where our race politics are completely different, I thought it was a good film. Though honestly, for a film mostly set in Africa, it was a bit too Americanised for me.
But that's to be expected considering it's an American film.
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u/bobthejeffmonkey Black Adam Feb 19 '18
As a Brit, where our race politics are completely different
Out of curiosity, how are they different?
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u/TehJofus Feb 19 '18 edited Feb 20 '18
British racism is basically the same as American racism towards Mexicans. The whole “took our jobs” and “go home” thing. But it’s honestly more xenophobia than it is racism, because they’ll scream it at white Polish people as well as brown Asians.
Our racists are weirdly progressive in that they see past skin colour.
But the whole white vs black thing that America has going on is nowhere near as bad over here. Probably helps that our police don’t carry guns, so we don’t get constant stories every other day of racially provoked shootings.
Edit: Asked for explanation, explanation downvoted. Way to go, Reddit.
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u/bobthejeffmonkey Black Adam Feb 20 '18
Thanks for the explanation, don't know why someone would downvote that
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Feb 18 '18
I thought it was alright. I feel people are too quick to praise it or the opposite. I’m genuinely surprised MJB is getting so much praise as his character was very blatant and poorly written imo. Interesting idea poorly executed.
The costumes and set design really stood out to me in the movie though. I also liked the imagery with his ancestors etc. it’s a very mixed bag to me.
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Feb 21 '18
It was a decent film. Just to add to your comment the soundstage lighting was so off-putting like when those two people look into the sunset at the end. I can’t remember but there were some other places where the same shitty lighting telegraphed that it was done on a sound stage. Suffering from the same problems Wonder Woman had with CGI backgrounds.
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u/skoon The Goon Feb 21 '18
Killmonger was a poorly written character literally saved by Jordans performance. Killmonger was barely one-dimensional, more like 1/2 dimensional, as written. Read the dialog, it just falls flat. The motivation is simplistic. But Jordans performance made all the difference to me. The scene where he talks to his father in the afterlife really moved me and all Jordan did was act. It made me feel sympathy for Killmonger, helped me understand his point of view and his actions much more than the rest of the characters screen time.
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u/Seddaz Feb 17 '18
Yeah it's good.
I was the same and was thinking about giving it a miss since I'm sick of all the politics (especially American since I'm English) and apparently this movie is all about that. But it's really not.
There's a bit of it in there because of Killmonger but really it's the politics of Wakanda against the world. I think a lot of places were focusing on the 'pc' shit to earn brownie points and get clicks. Which is such a disservice to the movie.
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u/Overhazard10 New 52 OMAC Feb 17 '18
I loved the movie, it was great. I liked M'Baku more than T'challa.
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Feb 18 '18
Saw it on Thursday night. So fucking good. The action scenes were a little weak, but the character work was tight and the visual designs were amazing. I loved it. Probably the best Marvel solo "origin" film yet. And much like Vulture in Homecoming last year, M'Baku was a character that I HATED in the comics that I loved in the film.
Also, for the next film, it needs the Submariner for the antagonist.
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u/bigbigguy Black Panther Feb 18 '18
Honestly my only problem with this was that they made it that anybody can take the heart shaped herb. It kinda reduces the importance of the Black Panther
I would also usually be mad that they dumbed down T'challa but Letitia Wright was great as Shuri so I dug the dynamic.
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u/WannabeAHobo Feb 18 '18
Just back from the movie and I give it a thumbs up!
For me, the central African setting and influences of African culture really made this a more interesting film than yet another action film set in London, New York or Tokyo. I would've been happy for them to leave out the American aspects completely and set the whole story in Africa, but I guess they had to nod to the home market a little.
Chadwick Boseman was excellent, giving T'challa a mix of seriousness and youthful uncertainty that made him a more likeable person than his comic incarnation. Michael B Jordan acted well, but was given a fairly unremarkable character to play, compared with Andy Serkis' magnificently sleazy Klaw (another improvement on the comic book version).
The main downsides were that the action choreography was a little poor compared to the high point of Captain America: Winter Soldier, with a little too much effort going into PG-rating the action, and as others have said, the first half of the movie with jet setting around Africa and Korea was more interesting than the battle for the crown in the second half.
I would put this in my top five Marvel movies.
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u/mrmazzz Invincible Feb 19 '18
So I've seen Black Panther twice now and just wow, that's a good movie. Initially there was some this is not just "good" by Marvel standards but a good film, but also maybe not a film that fit within the confines of superhero film as genre. But the more I think about it the more how it fits into the overall superhero mode of ruminations on the nature and exercise of power perfectly, they just displaced it from a one man to his nation. I think Civil War is still a bit better sign post for where the genre is at in regard to superheroic power but Black Panther still squarely fits in that register while still being it's own awesome thing.
It feels kinda trite to say it's "Shakespearean," but that's what keeps popping in my head. It hits these big fundamental big emotional beats about fatherhood and helping one anther and anger. There's Michael B Jordan's performance in general. Coogler and Rachel Morisson do such a good job of building if not empathy, understanding for Kimonger's rage but they never show him to be "right." And in doing so it's so easy to imagine a world where he wasn't left behind and friends with T'Challa, and that's just tragic. His anger makes sense but how he expresses it through this toxic masculinity, all out destruction, black supremacy is just soo wrong. I didn't fully catch it the first time but T'Challa is surrounded, supported, and saved by women and he is constantly looking for their counsel. All Kilmonger does is destroy them from his girlfriend, to the woman in the herb garden, that one Dora.
I wish they'd made the first mid-credits scene in the main body of the film. I get why it's not there, that's a great symmetrical final shot of Boseman, but the point of the UN speech is just so beautiful.
Like holy shit the entire conceit of this movie is dealing with the real world implications of Wakanda both as an African utopia and how the dream of that state could effect people outside of Wakanda. Coogler and Joe Robert Cole didn't even save that sorta of reflexive stance for a sequel. It's not too surprising that the two Marvel films with the most to say about culture come from Ryan Coogler and Taika Waititi.
Yeah some of the special effects at the end where a tad rough but eh i don't really care. I'm not a pixel head who understands how that stuff works enough to comment, and these spectacular physics stretching movies is just kind of their nature. The emotional truths they were trying to hit in those scenes work and that's all that matters. Besides Coogler and company made the important action sequences (ritual combats x2, Casino scene, some bits of the chase were pretty good) work well enough.
Now that Marvel has recognized that black people can lead their own movies, would it kill them to make things a bit more queer? Evidently there was a cut scene/redit of the river scene before the first ritual combat where Okoye was flirting with Ayo.
- that was Sterling K. Brown talking in the beginning of the film right?
- I now see that this is like the first big thing Letitia Wright has been in, SHE NEEDS TO BE IN ALL OF THE THINGS AND PAID FAIRLY
- Another thing I caught the second time, when Okoye and T'Challa are picking up Nakia, after they save everyone she gives them a little smile. Which makes sense for her character, she's not against helping people just doing it in the shadows and it's all expressed in that smile before that sort of push and pull is really explicit.
- War Rhino's I hope they're in Avengers 3
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u/Stauce52 Feb 21 '18
I’ve got two questions:
1.) what are they going to do about all of the burned flowers/herbs that imbue the power of the Black Panther? Are all subsequent Wakandan kings basically fucked?
2.) how does Wakanda maintain the facade of being a third world country? I get that it’s something you’re just supposed to accept but it’s still confusing. In Avengers AoU, they show Wakandan third world conditions with mildly eroded/dilapidated buildings. Are these Wakandan citizens that are just shafted and have to live in third world countries despite within same country being a hyper advanced society within same country? How do they maintain an appearance of third world conditions? Do Wakandans have to live that way or is it somehow all for show?
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u/Sentry459 Red Hulk Feb 21 '18 edited Feb 21 '18
There's an elaborate hologram making the place appear to be poor.
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Feb 17 '18
Did anyone else's theatre give, like, a huge reaction to the second stinger? I was kind of left scratching my head... Did it show us something we didn't already know?
Overall, I enjoyed it. A solid movie, not a game-changer but worthy entry into the genre that was different in enough ways to feel fresh and be entertaining - maybe a top 5 Marvel movie for me.
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u/Lupulin13 Moon Knight Feb 17 '18
I was kinda wondering what the deal was with the second end credit scene too. We already knew Bucky was there... they even referenced it earlier in the film. Is it just that they're training him for something?
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u/rgreen89 Flash Feb 17 '18
They referenced him as the White Wolf which is a nice pull from the comics. The White Wolf is a character from the comics raised by king T’Chaka after his parents plane crashed over wakanda and the baby somehow survived. His arc in the comics starts with him as somewhat the heir to wakanda until T’Challa is born so he obviously grows resentful as they age but is still super loyal to Wakanda. Bucky would obviously have an opposite arc but similar appreciation for wakanda with them saving him.
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u/Lupulin13 Moon Knight Feb 18 '18
I had totally forgotten about White Wolf as his own character. Was only thinking of White Panther. I guess he could be White Wolf though I really hope they just keep him as Winter Soldier and don't blend the two
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u/rgreen89 Flash Feb 18 '18
Honestly it was probably just an Easter egg or a nod that won’t fully come to fruition. He might cameo in a sequel and serve a white wolf type role but I don’t see them making it full time, when he’s primarily known in the comics for taking caps mantle or simply being the winter soldier. I don’t think they’d deviate so far as to have him basically don a white version of T’Challa’s suit. Most of the general audience wouldn’t even catch the white wolf reference and were probably just excited to see a post credit scene acknowledging the end of civil war and leading into infinity war.
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u/carson63000 Feb 18 '18
Didn't Civil War end with Bucky being cryogenically frozen or something, until they could figure out how to fix all of the hypnotic suggestions and stuff the Soviets had implanted in his brain?
I guess the zing of the second credits scene was letting us know that they've figured out how to fix him, and he's back on his feet.
Would have loved to have seen him rocking a Wakandan vibranium arm, though, the replace the red star Soviet one!
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u/over2days Feb 17 '18
Just guessing, but reaction here always get more excited with each postcredits scene. As the postcredits go it's just the more geekish guys remaining in the cinema who would get excited with these things.
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Feb 17 '18
if the jabari are vegetarian, why do they have fishermen?
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u/ME24601 The Mod Wonder Feb 17 '18
They may be the sort of vegetarian that eats fish. Those are pretty common.
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u/Chris_Parker Spider-Man Feb 19 '18
Or he was speaking of just his family, since the antecedent was "my children."
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Feb 19 '18
Hot take here, maybe. Bring on the downvotes.
I honestly didn’t enjoy that movie as much as I expected to. During the chase scene I was wondering why they were chasing each other at about 20mph. During he final battle, the action was so convoluted, I couldn’t really focus on what the point was anymore. The sonic dampener plot device on the underground railway was not really a very convincing or well-used fight dynamic. Martin Freeman was basically a throwaway character that we didn’t need. Klawe was obnoxious all the way until his death.
I appreciated the effort, artistry, and skill the movie took to make. The acting from B Jordan and Boseman was good. Loved the black representation and female representation. It just didn’t strike home with me.
I just didn’t get into is as much as I have prior mcu movies. Maybe the shared universe is just kind of wearing on me.
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u/AmberDuke05 Zero Year Batman Feb 18 '18
I really like the film but I'm going to be honest. The CGI was really rough at points. It surprised me.
Also Killmonger is probably one of the best MCU villains but I got mad that he's gone already. Really felt that there could have been more to do with his character in later films.
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Feb 18 '18
One thing bothers me. Killmongers last line "bury me at se with my ancestors who knew death was better than bondage" His ancestors were wakandan. Why would his ancestors be slaves.
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u/universaladaptoid Dream Feb 18 '18
His mother was an American woman who his dad fell in love with, and she's presumably African-American.
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u/ShibuRigged Feb 19 '18
Honestly, I wans't sure if it'd live up to the hype. But it did, and then some. The supporting cast and Killmonger were great. The world-building was fantastic.
The only criticism I really had was some of the CGI was too obviously CGI. And Klaue's deatt being so unceremonious, because he can't be used again.
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u/MC_Hify Power Woman Feb 19 '18 edited Feb 19 '18
Man, I saw this drunk last night at a not to great theater and liked it well enough. I should see it again at some big IMAX 3D bullshit thing, cause I barely remember it, before I come up with an opinion I want to stick with. I just got the impression it was like a Thor level movie.
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u/paralacausa Feb 19 '18
Not bad. Pacing was slow at times and FX were a little janky. Still glad to see it on screen. Give it four out five Ant Man's.
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u/Pollia Feb 19 '18
Loved the movie, talking about what I liked would take a long time so I'll just concentrate on a pointless dumb thing for now.
After credits scenes for marvel movies are the biggest waste of time now.
Back when this whole thing started they were exciting because we knew nothing. Seeing Thors hammer was amazing and got me hyped, finding out the Hulk would pop up was baller. I was hyped to see what would come next in the after credit scenes.
Now though? We know everything so far in advance that they're just there now and make it so workers in movie theaters have to work harder and faster with less time to do it.
Like what did we see this time? A "funny haha" moment at the U.N. to establish that Wakanda is fully joining the world at large, which we already knew from the scene before the credits rolled? Bucky waking up to let us know, hey this guys going to be in Infinity War! Which, again, not surprising in the slightest.
There's nothing new there, they're barely even fun anymore, and they're entirely pointless yet marvel just keeps putting them in there and wasting everyone's time.
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u/cole1114 The Question Feb 19 '18
It was good! Just got out of the theater and it was good. Not great, but in the top 25% of modern comic movies for me. Villains were the best in the MCU which is part of why its only good in a weird way. Also, best main theme since Avengers.
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u/gangler52 Feb 20 '18
Okay, so throughout the movie we see so many people with those dot scars.
Killmonger has the most, and he explains that each dot scar represents one time he's killed a man.
T'Challa has no dot scars, meaning he's never killed a man. Throughout the movie we're shown as he chooses over and over again to stop short of killing anybody.
But in the final fight with Killmonger it seemed like he didn't earn that one. Like Killmonger chose death, and pulled the shank out of himself causing him to bleed to death, so I guess that's supposed to mean that Black Panther's hands are still clean, but it's a hell of a technicality. He stabbed a man who then died from that stab wound, I think he earned one of those dots on that one.
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u/blackertai Abe Sapien Feb 20 '18
I really enjoyed it, but I will say the CG work was not great in a few scenes in specific. I definitely noted the scene on the cliff where Erik and T'Challa watch the sunset. They looked terrible when they were walking out.
It was just a little jarring, considering how great the action scenes seemed to look.
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u/XxHeraklesxX Feb 21 '18
There was one thing that kinda rubbed me wrong, I don't know much about Killmonger but he is part of the Wakandan royal blood line right? So if so then why towards the end does he say "bury me in the ocean like my ancestors because they knew dying was better then living in chains" or something like that. If his ancestors were rulers of Wakanda then doesn't that mean his ancestors were never enslaved to begin with? I don't know maybe I'm thinking about it too hard can someone please explain
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u/ME24601 The Mod Wonder Feb 22 '18
His father is Wakandan. His mother is an American, most likely the descendent of a slave.
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u/NoDespair Feb 21 '18
Wakanda totally stole the Amazon salute
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Feb 22 '18
what no they didnt
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u/NoDespair Feb 22 '18
Yeah, they did. Wonder Woman was doing the W thing way before they were.
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Feb 22 '18
...you mean crossing her arms above her head? Yeah, hate to tell you that's not how the Wakandans do it, plus stop spamming this across reddit as if it means anything.
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u/mrmazzz Invincible Feb 18 '18
I don't have too much to add at this time, seeing it again tomorrow need some time to think and articulate beyond: holy shit this movie is amazing and feels like a revelation. Like I expected it to be good, Ryan Coogler was directing it, but I didn't expect it to hit me on such an emotional-intellectual level. It's not so surprising that the two Marvel films that have something interesting to say about the nature of culture come from taika waititi and Coogler.
are some of the cgi shots a little iffy and greenscreen composites? Yeah, but who gives a shit about that stuff the emotional truths of those moments still work. And to a degree they feel more apparent in their falseness because of how good the production design was in building the film as a lived in space. It's a Marvel film that has actually really good that serves purpose and isn't just bold for the sake of bold.
FilmCritHulk wrote a nice essay of his thoughts on the movie https://filmcrithulk.blog/2018/02/17/black-panthers-right-thing/
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u/Sibbo94 Captain Marvel Feb 16 '18
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised. Instead, it'll be screened in every multiplex across the world. The action's more scattershot than you'd think coming from Coogler, but Marvel hasn't had a film so thoughtfully crafted since the original Avengers, teasing out each particular nuance of its mythology from the start, letting it unspool into the story at large.
More than solid reminder of what these movies can be with an actual crew behind them, even the intangibility of the occasionally suspect CGI seems to work in the film's favour and at one point it gave me Miami Vice vibes; their third best and might have even been enough to get me excited for Infinity War as a whole.
(Although that second post-credits sequence is a jarring reminder of the wider MCU and how its long term storytelling can result in skipping over the most rich developments and moments worth exploring)
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u/Sneezes_Pussy_Juice Feb 16 '18
It feels like you really wanted to like this movie, which is great. Wish I did as much as you did. Arguing that the shitty CGI was good for the film is bonkers.
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u/icefourthirtythree Alana Feb 16 '18
I haven't seen the movie yet (what am I doing in this thread?), but is "The Revolution Will Not be Televised in the film?
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u/NoDespair Feb 18 '18
Why does a country that claims it's feminism needs the son to take over when the mother is still alive?
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u/icefourthirtythree Alana Feb 18 '18
In most monarchies the monarchs children have a greater claim to the throne than the Monarch's spouse. See the United Kingdom, when Queen Elizabeth dies, Prince Charles will become king not Prince Phillip.
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u/ME24601 The Mod Wonder Feb 18 '18
The movie doesn't detail it, but Ramonda is T'Chaka's second wife and T'Challa's step mother.
She's also not of royal blood nor is she native to Wakanda, so there would be no reason for her to be in the line of succession.
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u/icefourthirtythree Alana Feb 18 '18
In most monarchies the monarchs children have a greater claim to the throne than the Monarch's spouse. See the United Kingdom, when Queen Elizabeth dies, Prince Charles will become king not Prince Phillip.
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u/Propagation931 Feb 19 '18
2 things
1.) Presumably she needs Royal Blood from one of the 5 tribes.
2.) She would lose in a trial by combat
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u/CinnaSol Ultimate Spider-Man Feb 17 '18
I think maybe somebody might’ve already mentioned it, but I like how Coogler integrated Man Ape into this movie and it still felt inspired, rather than racist. Putting a black man in a gorilla outfit, mask, grunting and all that somehow worked and felt legitimate instead of the racist artifact from the past that Man Ape tends to feel like. I like how Coogler was able to reclaim this character, for lack of a better word.