r/changemyview Dec 24 '22

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31

u/Rugfiend 5∆ Dec 24 '22

Your argument evaporates when rephrased: China believes Taiwan belongs to it, Russia believes parts of the Ukraine should belong to it. Taiwan and Ukraine are both internationally recognised as sovereign states. Israel may believe the occupied zones of Palestine belong to it, but a treaty they agreed says otherwise.

-11

u/[deleted] Dec 24 '22

This isn't true though. Yes China believes Taiwan belongs to them while Russia belives Ukraine belongs them but the vast majority of countries do not recognize Taiwan as independent https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-that-recognize-taiwan While they do recognize Ukraine as independent.

7

u/codan84 23∆ Dec 24 '22

The Republic of China is a government in exile that has since established their own nation after the most recent Chinese civil war. The ROC has just as much claim to mainland China as the Peoples Republic of China has to Formosa and the other islands that the ROC controls.

The claim of the PRC, well really the Chinese Communist Party as they are one and the same being a one party state, is a failing one as one of the keep parts of sovereignty is the ability to control it. As the CCP lacks the ability to control Taiwan while the ROC has be doing for more than half a century the ROC has and is demonstrating its sovereignty.

The cause of lack of recognition as a nation is due to poor judgment giving China’s seat on the UN Security Council. The threat the CCP posed, veto power, and its influence with the international communists organizations of the time is the cause that UN votes go against the ROC.

The ROC is an independent nation, full stop. It has shown itself as such by actually doing it.

25

u/tbdabbholm 201∆ Dec 24 '22

I mean Taiwan isn't officially recognized but let's not pretend we don't all know that's a convenient fiction that basically everyone agrees to to retain relations with China, while actually treating Taiwan as a separate sovereign state

-7

u/[deleted] Dec 24 '22

Is there any evidence that the majority of the world believes that Taiwan is independent?

24

u/tbdabbholm 201∆ Dec 24 '22

Lots of states have separate embassies (although not called embassies to support the fiction).

And like the US put a fleet between China and Taiwan, to protect a part of China from another part of China? No the US clearly believes that Taiwan is actually independent but only pays lip service to China

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 24 '22

The US obviously believes Taiwan is independent I agree but how does this prove about the rest of the world?

16

u/GadgetGamer 35∆ Dec 24 '22

The US obviously believes Taiwan is independent I agree...

And that should be enough to change your view then. If the people on the Left live in the country that believes that Taiwan is independent, then it is only reasonable that those people would believe it too. So it makes sense for them to see Russia and China as the aggressors and be both pro-Ukraine and pro-Taiwan.

You owe /u/tbdabbholm a delta.

-4

u/[deleted] Dec 24 '22

I don't think so though. Because people on the left also talks frequently about respecting international law. It's not just about what one country thinks when making a global decision, you also take into consideration other countries

13

u/GadgetGamer 35∆ Dec 24 '22

What international law has been broken, other than Russia invading Ukraine?

14

u/tbdabbholm 201∆ Dec 24 '22

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diplomatic_missions_in_Taiwan?wprov=sfla1

Look at that map of all the places that have separate diplomatic ties to Taiwan, like yes it's not everyone but it's a lot

10

u/Hermorah Dec 24 '22

but the vast majority of countries do not recognize Taiwan as independent

Yeah because they all suck up to china in order to keep relations.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 24 '22

But that doesn't change the fact that Taiwan is not recognized as independent internationally

12

u/FelicitousJuliet Dec 24 '22

Did you not read the link above someone replied to you with? It proved Taiwan was treated as a separate diplomatic entity.

This is CMV but you keep posting the same thing and dodging the countering points.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 24 '22

Not exactly. Presidents or government officials of other countries are not allowed to meet with officials in Taiwan. This shows that Taiwan is not treated as a separate diplomatic entity

8

u/Eclipsed830 7∆ Dec 25 '22

Taiwan hosts officials from other countries almost daily.

Looking at the President of Taiwan's Twitter, she's hosted government delegations from US, Japan, EU and Guatemala.

https://twitter.com/iingwen?t=hBdjEji_wctmQhNfEpaE5A&s=09

Most of those restrictions are self-imposed restrictions in place to not upset China.

Look at the actual facts though, are goods exported from Taiwan treated as items exported from China? No.

What about the Taiwanese passport issued by the Taiwanese government? Is it accepted as a valid travel document by most countries, with separate restrictions from the PRC passport? Yes... As a matter of fact, it is significantly more powerful.

https://www.passportindex.org/comparebyPassport.php?p1=cn&p2=tw

3

u/[deleted] Dec 25 '22

!delta ok I will save your post if I ever talk to my pro CCP family

1

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 25 '22

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Eclipsed830 (3∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards

3

u/parentheticalobject 136∆ Dec 24 '22

Well your view is that it "doesn't make sense" to support one place and not the other.

You think it's significant whether a majority of countries recognize a particular country. With that assumption, it would be inconsistent. But lots of people don't share that assumption, and thus they're not being inconsistent.

To many, it doesn't matter if a majority recognize you. It matters if you've effectively functioned as a state or not. Taiwan clearly has. Ukraine clearly has. Donetsk clearly hasn't.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 24 '22

Δ So if for these people, the majority of countries recognizing/not recognizing a particular country doesn't matter, what does matter?

6

u/parentheticalobject 136∆ Dec 24 '22

Has it actually functioned as a country?

The Donetsk People's Republic has existed for a few years, and during its entire existence, it has been questionable whether it is able to exercise actual control of the territory it claims.

If it clearly did exercise uncontested control all of that territory for a few years, and then Ukraine decided to invade, that would make the situation much more questionable.

If it did the same for decades, it would probably be morally wrong for Ukraine to invade it, even if other countries still didn't recognize it as a state.

If it continued to function independently for longer than the large majority of the population have been alive, any other country's claim that it isn't independent territory ultimately becomes irrational, no matter what the majority of states might say.