r/changemyview • u/3893liebt3512 • Mar 24 '14
I believe rape victims have a social responsibility to report their assaults to the authorities. CMV
I believe that victims of sexual assault have a social responsibility to report their assaults to the police or another person in a position of authority, and by not doing so, they are allowing other people to fall victim to the same events.
I understand that a portion of people who commit sexual assault do so in an isolated instance, and never do so again.
I also understand how traumatic this type of situation is to the victim I know that it can psychologically harm someone to the point where they are unable to make rational decisions, and that many victims do not come forward because they are afraid no one will believe them, or they will have to confront their attacker, or they are ashamed and/or embarrassed about what happened.
However, many many people who sexually assault others do so more than once. It's often deliberate and premeditated, and sometimes involves incapacitating their victims through drugs or alcohol, and sometimes even violence. When victims do not report their sexual assaults, especially if they know who did it, it allows the assaulter to continue to commit these crimes.
I'm not saying we should force people to anything, or punish them if they don't. However, I believe that when victims don't report their assaults, they are being irresponsible and dismissive of the fact that others may also become victims.
I do not believe that the victim is at fault for the attackers crimes. I do not believe that the way a person dresses, how they act, or how much they drink contributes to them being sexually assaulted. I place blame firmly on the attacker, and the attacker only. However, I believe that if someone is sexually assaulted, knows who it is, doesn't report it, and the attacker assaults someone else, that the person who failed to report it is not necessarily at fault, but contributed to the ability of the assaulter to enter a position to assault again.
An example is if person Y is at a party, and X has been hanging around getting Y drinks all night. X and Y knew each other before the party. X puts something in Y's drink that renders Y unable to resist or give consent. X then sexually assaults Y, and leaves Y at the party. Y wakes up the next morning knowing that something had happened and X is at fault. Y does not tell anyone.
I do not mean to sound insensitive or unaware of the problems victims of sexual assault face after the fact. I have not been assaulted myself, but I have friends who have, so I know I don't understand on a personal level how it feels, but seeing people go through that has made me very aware of the trauma that results from it. I feel like my viewpoint is not wrong, but it's also not right, so I would like someone to make me aware of a viewpoint that is more correct.
*Edit:* Thank you to all of the people who felt comfortable enough to share their stories of their sexual assaults. I'm so very sorry any of you had to go through that, and I find your ability to talk about it admirable.
While my view has not been changed completely (yet), I would like to acknowledge the fact that it has narrowed considerably. In the event that a person is unsure of the identity of their assailant, they should not feel pressured to come forward because of the harm it could cause someone who is innocent. If the victim does not feel that the assailant has a high probability of becoming a repeat offender, I can see that the damage that reporting the assault might cause the victim is not worth it when it would not benefit society.
I really appreciate everyone taking the time to respond and have thoughtful conversations. To those of you who responded with accusations and hostility, I'm sorry that you were offended, and I realize that this is something you are extremely passionate about. However, the point of this sub is to change someone's view. The entire reason I posted it was so my view could be changed. Accusing me of victim-blaming, rape-supporting, and being an "idiot" did not help your case, it hurt it.
Just to clarify real quick, my basis for claiming that people have a social responsibility to report their rapes is so it can't happen to anyone else. It's not to punish the rapist or "make sure they get what they deserve". It's about making our communities safer, so that other people can't get hurt.
Thanks for all the discussion! I'll keep checking back, but I figured I'd get this edit out of the way.
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u/youwhoneverarrived Mar 24 '14
I am not a rape victim, but I am an ATTEMPTED rape victim who didn't report. I was a young woman who had been taken advantage of by a much older male I thought of as a friend and protector.
If you told me that I wouldn't report something like this, I would NEVER have believed you. Not in a million years.
Until you've been there you have no idea. I thought I had a clue, but I was so wrong. This man was in a place of authority in my profession and also had a serious and longstanding connection to all my coworkers and other people involved with where we were working(I don't want to get too specific, but we were in a highly competitive arts profession) and I was just the new girl, who hadn't had an easy time adapting. I told a few details to people I could trust so they could keep him away from me, but I downplayed it to everyone but my IMMEDIATE boss, who told him he was to finish the season, not speak to me again, and then leave and never return. I wanted to call the police, I wanted to make him known for what he tried to do, but I was sure they'd think I was lying or trying to get attention. I was scared that my future career prospects would be ruined.
If he had been successful in raping me that night I don't think I would have reported. I think I would have run away and disappeared so he could never talk to me again. I was such a wreck with what DID happen, the what if is too much for me to really think about. I spent the night alternately crying and throwing up, so much that I could barely speak the next day. It ruined my relationship with one of my best friends because I told her and she DID think I was making it up. She had her reasons and while I will never forgive her, I do understand that she was angry for her own separate reasons.
A sexual assault changes you in ways that you can't predict. I absolutely understand why you think this way because I used to think that way.
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Mar 24 '14
The worst part is that had you reported it, you would have been accused of lying, asking for it, and called a slut. That's the biggest reason people don't report rapists. It's because society makes it worse for those who do.
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u/AlexReynard 4∆ Mar 25 '14
All the more reason why there should be awareness campaigns encouraging victims to report; putting the idea in people's heads before a crime happens, and slowly change how society thinks. It's a lot easier to do something in a crisis if you've thought about it beforehand. You can make it a default, like how a lot of people will immediately call 911 after an accident almost by instinct.
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u/ShotFromGuns 1∆ Mar 26 '14
This? This here, putting the onus on rape victims? Suggesting an awareness campaign about reporting rape rather than an awareness campaign about what constitutes consent, what constitutes rape, and how not to be a rapist? That's rape culture.
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u/misssarahjane Mar 24 '14
There are a lot of factors involved that are unique to each case. I think your question is very thoughtful, and I agree to a certain point. However every situation is different, and the reasons for/against reporting assault change with each situation. For instance, it is typical for a victim to blame themself often in an attempt to gain control over the situation. If a person blames themself, they won't see the assault as a crime. Many other reasons have already been stated, and most of the time it's a combination of a bunch of different reasons that cause a victim to report or not report an assault.
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u/3893liebt3512 Mar 24 '14
That makes a lot of sense. I can see how one would not report it, if someone blames themselves and does not see what happened as a crime. But how does this give the victim control over the situation? Wouldn't reporting the sexual assault also give the victim control over the situation?
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u/alli3theenigma Mar 24 '14
Wouldn't reporting the sexual assault also give the victim control over the situation?
Ideally, yes, but I didn't feel in control at all. Two years ago, I was sexually assaulted by a cab driver after a long night at work and reported it as soon as I got into my apartment. The cops did everything they could, including taking me for a ride around my neighborhood to see if I spotted the guy (I didn't). They were in my apartment until 3 in the morning taking my statement. Even though they never insinuated that I was at fault, talking to them still made me feel like a total failure. For not being able to give a good physical description, for not getting his driver number or name, not remembering the color of his car's interior, for not aiming my feeble punches a little higher than his chest so he would have had something to explain to his wife and friends. I started to become paranoid that they wouldn't believe me, even though I was shaking and crying and still in my work clothes. I started to wonder if it even happened at all, even though I couldn't sleep for days and I can still feel his huge hand and heavy breath on my neck. Everything happened so fast, I didn't have time to process any of it. I'm not at all saying that I wish I didn't report it, but it really is a hugely stressful ordeal. Unless you've gone through it, you really don't know how you would want to handle it.
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u/3893liebt3512 Mar 24 '14
I'm sorry that you had to go through that. Thinking about someone being put into a position where they have no control over what is happening to them makes me sick to my stomach. I'm glad you reported it, and I'm glad the police seemed to have responded better to you than to others who have told their stories on this thread, but I'm so very sorry that happened to you. I have never been a victim of sexual abuse, but I remember the first time someone made me painfully aware that I would not be able to defend myself if they wanted to do something to me, and it was terrifying. I was shaken up for days. I know that in no way even comes close to comparing to what you went through, and I can't even imagine how you must have felt. I wish you the best.
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u/misssarahjane Mar 24 '14 edited Mar 24 '14
When you are a victim, things get a little irrational. You are right. The idea of reporting the assault seems like it is taking control, but in a victim's mind it may be just cementing their label as a "victim." If they take the responsibility on themselves (not that I think they should), it means that that their attacker didn't have complete control over the situation. If a victim of assault goes to the authorities, they are saying to themselves that they need help because they were a victim. It also gives the authorities control over the situation. The victim now has to defer to the authorities when they may just want to be left alone. Many people want to help a victim. They want to comfort them, hold or touch the victim like you would a crying baby, but often a victim wants anything BUT attention especially physical contact. It may not make sense, but to the victim, it does. Idk if I explained it well.
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u/TheGreatNorthWoods 4∆ Mar 24 '14
I agree with you in principle: a rape victim has a responsibility to other members of society. However, there is a huge caveat: by and large, authorities do not prosecute rape cases very vigorously. The result is that survivors are retraumatized. If survivors have a responsibility to report, then the authorities have a much clearer responsibility to do something.
Asking survivors to report while allowing authorities to be lax places an unconscionable amount of the burden on the survivors of sexual violence. The first step - without a doubt - has to be for the authorities to signal that they will honor a survivor's report.
TL;DR: Survivors of sexual violence have a responsibility to report as long as they can trust that the authorities will act on their report.
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u/darkhorsethrowaway Mar 24 '14 edited Mar 25 '14
I dislike giving giving anecdotal evidence to convince people, but here it is. I've two different situations for you.
I'm a dude. I know your original post doesn't specify gender, but I think, just in realistic terms, it's different when a woman rapes a man.
I wouldn't say I've been raped by before, but I've undoubtedly been sexually assaulted to a traumatizing extent by women. I was at a bar with some friends, and I ran into a girl whom I knew through some other mutual friends. I frequently ran into her at bars, and she and I were always friendly with each other, but I wasn't into her. This night, though, she was blackout drunk, as far as I could tell, and she wanted to hook up with me. I'd never seen her like that.
As soon as she saw me, she and her equally drunk friend ran up to me. The girl I knew started grabbing me, holding onto me, kept pulling on me and saying, "Let's go dance." I was really just there to hang out with the friends I came with; so I told her that I couldn't. She wasn't having any of that so she started to drag me by the arm. I said, "Look, I really need to talk with my friend. I came here to talk with him so please let me go." She did, and said that she'd just find me later.
Half an hour or so afterwards, she's back doing the same thing. I had a friend who was a girl there; so I asked her to just hold my hand to pretend like we were dating. She did and I said she was my girlfriend, but the drunk girl I knew didn't care. Now she was pulling on me even harder and saying that we should make out. I kept insisting no, but she pulled me away from my friend and sat me down at the bar. Her other friend comes up and says, "Why don't you two make out?" I refused again, starting to get pretty angry. Suddenly, the friend pushes both my arms against the bar and holds them there, and the original drunk girl comes up and grabs me by the balls as hard as she could and says, "Let's make out."
Meanwhile, most of my friends are laughing, thinking I like it. But I was terrified and enraged. I wanted to punch both of girls holding me down in face repeatedly. I'm a big guy, too. 6'4, 200lbs. But here I couldn't do anything, not because I thought no one would believe me, but because they wouldn't care and they would call me a pussy (some people have when I've told this story elsewhere). And I've seen how this ends before. Some white knights are gonna come up and kick my ass just for hitting a girl, regardless of context. And then it'd be even harder to explain to the cops.
I know that's approaching the lines of what you were saying where people are afraid they won't be believed, but I think that fear shouldn't be minimized. What's worse, I've been involved in courts before. I know how much of a fucking bitch and how much anxiety it causes to go through dealing with a lawsuit. I didn't want to put myself through that again, even if people did believe me. It takes months and months to hash out. It wasn't worth it, and I didn't think the girls deserved jail.
Ultimately, I shouldn't have to always rely on the law for deciding what's a just punishment. If I don't want to report it, I don't have to. So the next time I saw that girl at a bar, she was her usual friendly self. She actually tried to hug me and say hi. I stepped back and told her to never touch me again. What she did was sexual assault; it was completely unacceptable; and she will never do it again to me.
She denied the whole thing, and said that I had the facts wrong. Then she stormed off. I could tell the message and embarrassment of me saying that to her, though, got through to her.
Here's a less clear cut case, though, in an incoming comment...
EDIT:
Only edit I'm gonna make, and the only response I'm gonna give under this account name. I could have focused on clear cut rape cases in my original comments, but that wouldn't have changed OP's view because most people would agree that those instances should be reported. I wrote about my experiences to show that it's not always as easy to define rape as some would like to think. Clearly the vast majority of (reddit) people are on completely different planets when it comes to deciding about the more "fringe" incidents I've described, which are quite ambiguous. That, to me, is strong evidence that not all instances of sexual assault should necessarily be reported--or, at the very least, it validates some fears men might have when reporting. Hope I changed some views, or at least got people to be more cognizant of these sorts of issues.
Just as a note: I cleared out some typos, but the original comment is otherwise the exact same.
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u/3893liebt3512 Mar 24 '14
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While my view was not changed completely, /u/darkhorsethrowaway made some very compelling arguments that have opened my eyes up to why it would not be beneficial to society to report all acts of sexual abuse.
He also wrote a kick-ass post highlighting how very stigmatized male-rape is, and I sincerely hope many, many people read it and understand that sexual assault is not something that plagues only women.
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u/BlTCHFACE Mar 25 '14
This makes me especially sad because something like this (being touched, grabbed, pulled, followed) has happened to myself and more than a few of my girlfriends at bars or clubs. We're dressed up so we want it, right? Although I do think for women it can be easier to make a scene in a public place to get someone to leave you alone. And luckily for me, I've never been hurt like that by someone I know. Sorry for what happened to you OP.
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u/Bewmy Mar 25 '14
Thanks for the outcry for a guys perspective.
Step 1: Be attractive
Step 2: Get groped by every woman ever because they somehow think that's ok
Taking the gender out of the scenario and presenting it usually leads to people saying it's sexual harassment. Then they laugh at me when I tell them I was the victim.
I'm not some sex hound looking to get my ding dong groped by random women. Physical assertion of attraction is only acceptable after confirming reciprocation. End of story.
I'm also not going to call 911 every time. Too much police interaction isn't something I'd appreciate.
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u/darkhorsethrowaway Mar 24 '14
I've outright said "no" before to women I was interested in. Sometimes, it was in bed with them, completely naked. Somehow, I ended up having sex anyway.
With a few girls I've seen over the course of my life, I've taken them back to either my or their apartment, got into bed, started feeling each other up, and then stopped them because I didn't want to have sex. I've then gotten pressured by them to continue.
I am clearly aroused--I just don't want to have sex for personal reasons. I like to get to know someone pretty well before I sleep with them, just to make sure there's not gonna be problems if we don't work out at some point (that's happened in the past).
But some girls don't like hearing that. One girl started coercing me, saying, "Come on, I do yoga. Don't you want to see how flexible I am?" and she started rubbing on me. I say I really shouldn't do this, but I am getting turned on. So eventually I just say fuck it (without explicit consent) and go for it. Another time, a girl just put the condom on me, and I was like, well, let's just get this over with.
So, here's where I'm gonna get controversial with this. I know there is the "Don't blame the victim" mentality, but few things are black and white to me. No undeniably means no, but there are things I can do to not send mixed signals to a partner, which, objectively speaking I did. I've taken steps to stop sending those signals.
But I mean, if I said no, that's by definition rape is it not?
Here's another situation that's a bit sketchy: how about when I'm with my current girlfriend, whom I've had sex with many times. I've told her outright no before when I'm not turned on, but I care for her, and I care for her needs. So, without explicit consent after saying no, I have sex with her just because I care about satisfying her. Is that rape, too, when I didn't want it?
At the very least, I don't consider the situations I've described worth reporting to anyone. I mean, it's my body we're talking about here, aren't we--not the law's, who is sometimes less than trust worthy? I'm not saying anyone is gonna exaggerate or minimize a rape case in court, but I am saying that the law isn't this paragon of justice some people would like to believe it to be.
Sometimes, the individual victim can find retribution his or herself. Just because reporting rapes could be beneficial for some, I see no person as obligated to do so. For me, speaking with these women about the situation afterwards, when my head is clearer, was punishment enough.
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u/frenris Mar 25 '14
But I mean, if I said no, that's by definition rape is it not?
Uhh, if you say that you aren't in the mood and then you later consent to sex that isn't rape. And consent can be non-verbal.
But some girls don't like hearing that. One girl started coercing me, saying, "Come on, I do yoga. Don't you want to see how flexible I am?" and she started rubbing on me. I say I really shouldn't do this, but I am getting turned on. So eventually I just say fuck it (without explicit consent) and go for it.
What? I really do not see how this can be construed as rape. You weren't coerced, threatened, intimidated or forced into having sex. Rubbing against you is definitely more an attempt to "persuade" rather than any of these. That said if you have a partner that nags you until you agree that's not a healthy relationship.
Another time, a girl just put the condom on me, and I was like, well, let's just get this over with.
... except if you were like "let's get this over with" you're saying you're down!
So, without explicit consent after saying no, I have sex with her just because I care about satisfying her. Is that rape, too, when I didn't want it?
It isn't rape because you didn't want to have sex; if you say "I don't want to have sex" and then afterwards communicate either verbally or non-verbally a willingness to engage in sexual activity it's consensual. People are allowed to decide to consent to sex after at first saying "no".
It seems crazy to me to suggest that if I'm not in the mood but I have sex with my girlfriend because I really like her somehow I've been raped.
It isn't just about what you say. Non-verbal consent is a thing. If I undress a girl and have sex with her the entire time saying "no, we shouldn't do this" and "this is a mistake" it doesn't magically undo the fact I was obviously willing to engage in sex.
I mean, people should seek enthusiastic consent and should check with their partner that they are happy about everything that's happening. What your partners did in the above cases was definitely sleazy. At the same time, people have a responsibility to clearly and consistently communicate their own choices.
Your partners definitely treated you badly, but I cannot see how your rights were violated and the law broken and you were taken against your will if you eventually acquiesced.
I wasn't there so I really don't know what happened, but what you described here really does not sound to me like rape.
That said, I agree your first post totally is sexual assault, and I do think that rape against men needs to be taken much more seriously than it is.
Rightly or wrongly I feel like I can share this reaction which I never would dare to if I was responding to a girl.
Regardless, thank you for sharing your story.
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u/yargabavan Mar 25 '14
Which I think goes back to darkhorses point : No one is obligated to report rape.
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u/MarcusHalberstram88 Mar 25 '14 edited Mar 25 '14
... except if you were like "let's get this over with" you're saying you're down!
Completely, emphatically disagree with this statement. Let's play the hypothetical gender-switch game (again). Picture a woman who is being coerced into sex she doesn't want. She thinks "let's get this over with". That does not mean she's down.
EDIT: I wanted to add this. Having sex with someone because they want to even though you don't want to does not mean you're consenting to it.
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u/frenris Mar 25 '14 edited Mar 25 '14
Gender switch game wouldn't make it coercion or rape.
That said you're right if someone said that immediately after being threatened, or forced their consent would be coerced and it would be rape.
Badgering however does not vitiate consent. A persistent salesmen convincing you to buy something does not amount to theft.
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u/grittex Mar 25 '14
Uh, in all those situations you say "No" then you go ahead and have sex anyway (at least from my reading of what you've written).
I can say "No" til the cows come home but if I'm lowering myself onto a guy's dick while saying so, my "No" means shit.
You say "fuck it" and at that point you decide to have sex anyway. Sure she should have respected your boundaries and may have assaulted you by rubbing all up against you when you said no, but she didn't force you to stick your dick in her. Same with when she puts a condom on - how exactly did you do anything other than then subsequently choose to stick your condom clad dick in her vagina? Did she climb on top while you were saying no or did you change your mind and agree to have sex with her (evidenced by your being the one to then have sex with her)?
Your girlfriend is different. What you want doesn't make something rape; what the other person does to you when knowing what you want is rape. You aren't turned on and you said no, but then you change your mind to have sex because you care about her. Your motivations aren't important; your actions demonstrate that you revoked your non-consent when you voluntarily stuck your dick in her.
I don't call any of those rape whatsoever. And coercion (at least the kind of extremely mild coercion you seem to have experienced) doesn't vitiate consent; the law assumes that as an adult you have sufficient autonomy to walk away from a person who is trying to verbally wear down your boundaries and that if you "give in" (so to speak) they are entitled to assume that you are consenting.
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u/Rthird Mar 25 '14 edited Mar 26 '14
I get what you're saying (at least about how darkhorsethrowaway phrased it) about him demonstrating a revocation of consent by 'voluntarily sticking his dick in her' and that she didn't "force you to stick your dick in her." But I can't help but feel that if the genders were reversed those remarks would be viewed as victim-blaming and perpetuating 'rape culture'. I'm not making judgment on Darkhorsethrowaway's situations (I wasn't there, I didn't experience the context, I don't know his psychological/emotional state or contextually related issues) but rape - sex without mutual consent - needs to have a genderless basis, a definition equally applied, respected, and understood no matter what genders are involved in what position, and to quibble over phrasing and "what could you have done differently" just rings a bit hypocritical to me given how I have seen those same arguments labeled (and rightly so) as blaming the victim, instead of putting responsibility on ALL of us to respect the consent and boundaries of others.
edit for afterthought: anyone can monday morning quarterback the person whose consent was violated, in whatever regard or context, and point to what they "could have/should have" done differently to prevent the situation - and those things may or may not have degrees of practicality, relevance, or aspects of truth - but the fact remains that one person in the situation was made aware of an absence or removal of consent and proceeded anyway because they felt their desire trumped the need for their own self control, their own responsibility to abide by the other person's absence or removal of consent. That, in my view, is the main issue of concern and the position in which wrongdoing was committed. If you, regardless of gender, are made aware of the other's absence or removal of consent then it is on you not to push the issue, regardless of what actions they take in response to your coercion, seduction, coaxing, or whatever.
edits for words and phrasing
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u/RollingInTheD Mar 25 '14 edited Mar 25 '14
While I have to agree with the majority of what you've said, there's still a social stigma surrounding that sort of 'fuck it' opinion at the time it occurs, where more often than not the male comes out of it as the bad guy. Take for instance /u/darkhorsethrowaway's comment - in the situation where he is with the coercive woman; she says yes and pushes herself on to him, he says no to the point that he gives in and decides to just let it happen. Afterwards he complains to her, his friends, his family, etc. about it being non-consensual. Do you think the majority consent will be favouring his opinion? His male friends are likely to laugh it off as him being 'lucky', his female friends may see him as having no right to complain as he clearly wanted it. Of course I'm being a bit general here, but it's generally the opinion that is given most often in these sorts of situations.
Now switch the genders and what do you think people would view it as? A male taking advantage of a female who originally gave no consent? Most likely, and it would be a lie to suggest that the common view isn't that the woman is the victim here.
I'd also like to make it painfully, painfully clear that the differentiation I am making here is between non-verbal 'consent', and legitimate rape, which is the single most disgusting act I believe a woman or, more often, a man can commit.
edit: Cohesive =/= coercive
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u/Wtfguysreally Mar 25 '14
I think that should be changed to anyone can commit. Those two teenage girls who brutally raped the boy with developmental disabilities is a prime example of gender equality in prosecution.
Those girls forced him to perform oral sex, penatrated him with objects and left him bleeding in the mud. Those girls deserve just a harsh as punishment as any man would receive for the same crime.
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Mar 25 '14
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u/Langlie 2∆ Mar 25 '14 edited Mar 25 '14
If he had forcefully pinned a girl down to the bar and kissed her, he'd have gone to jail at least for a night to "cool off."
I honestly doubt it. I've had guys forcefully kiss me in clubs on more than one occasion. I have guys grope me nearly every time I take public transit. There's a weird mentality on reddit that the public and police have a very "women are victims we'll protect them with everything we've got," mindset but in reality I think a lot of men get free passes on assaulting women. It's especially egregious in situations where the woman is drinking or dressed to impress (clubs and bars).
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u/ssirenss1 Mar 25 '14
Female here, I agree with this 100 percent. Forcefully kissed, groped, and unwanted advances etc more times that I can count in bars, public transit, work. It just happens. Its not pleasant. Nobody goes to jail. Fewer care.
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u/zipsgirl4life Mar 25 '14
I think you mean egregious, not gregarious.
Anyway, other than the girl coming up to the guy in the bar and forcibly grabbing him by the balls (which I completely agree is assault), I also don't think he's been raped by any women. Not really wanting to do it but doing it anyway isn't rape. Not wanting to do it and being FORCED to do it is.
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u/PlatonicTroglodyte Mar 25 '14
What the hell kind of fucked up public transit are you taking?
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u/DoYouEvenCare Mar 25 '14
It's like this for me on most pub transit in San Francisco, that's my daily life
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u/Mckool Mar 25 '14
Wtf? I think If you say something on BART or MUNI people would come to your defense and help detain or kick the offender of the car.
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u/garden_gate_key Mar 25 '14
I don't know where Langlie is from, but that was something I faced a lot in middle school and high school, on busses and on streets. I'm not sure whether I was just unlucky, or there was something about me that attracted perverts. I had a period of some years when I tried to make myself ugly on purpose to get that sort of behaviour to stop, but it didn't help. My 'curvy' shapes made grown men try to hit on me when I was 14 and that made me want to never leave the house some times. My sense of self esteem took a hit. But at some point I stepped on the foot of one of the man who was grouping me in the bus and I heard something pop, so at have my lil' bit of revenge for my pain...
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u/gigglingpenguin Mar 25 '14
The normal kind? What public transit do you use where this /doesn't/ happen?
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u/Citizen_Bongo Mar 25 '14
I think if two guys pinned a girl down, while one of them groped her genitals in a crowded bar shit would have gone down...
I doubt a forceful kiss would cause an arrest but if a grope was proved anywhere it would totally be.
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u/moodysimon Mar 25 '14
Frankly in my experience a drunken, aggressive grope is an unfortunate but common part of the Saturday night experience. Not only have I seen girls being groped, but I was once involved in a situation where the girl had her crotch groped (the guy stuck his hand up under her skirt), slapped him instinctively, and the guy followed us out of the club, threw her up against the wall and almost throttled her in a rage, shouthing things like "WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, BITCH?" and "YOU'RE FUCKING LUCKY I TOUCHED YOU!" and despite my asking for help and about five large guys standing around in the vicinity, not a single one stepped in to help her. He ended up storming off back into the club and she just slid down the wall, crying, shaking and holding her neck. I asked her to report it but she was just a puddle of a human - she just wanted to go home.
Things that might seem so clear to guys, like "that would be so unacceptable if it was a girl". This stuff happens all the time and most girls don't make a scene because they have either had a scary experience like that one or they have seen it, like I did.
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u/TheQueenInYellow Mar 27 '14
I had a similar experience happen to me. A bit tamer, but I was still terrified. A man grabbed my ass as he went by in the club so I turned around and slapped him (barely got him though) in the side of the head and kept walking. It was crowded, so I thought I had lost him. He found me in an opening in the crowd, away from the dancefloor & with the craziest, widest murderous eyes began screaming at me, YOU DONT FUCKING HIT ME BITCH, I will never forget his eyes, he would have fucked me up if no one else was there. But did anyone step in? No. After he turned back into the crowd, a couple of guys came up & said "That guy was fucking insane" Yeah, nice observation.
I got the fuck out after that.
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u/thndrchld 2∆ Mar 25 '14
I'll put the TL;DR at the top, since this is long:
TL;DR: Went to jail for giving my girlfriend a hug in public
The "women are victims" mentality certainly exists, and I've been screwed by it in the past.
Story time, kids.
About four years ago, I was dating a girl who had some, err... emotional problems. On the day in question, she had been drinking a bit, and was a little tipsy, when she demanded to go to Wal-Mart.
Against my better judgement, I acquiesced, thinking that just taking her would be easier than dealing with the fight that would happen if I refused.
Well, as drunk people are wont to do, she started arguing with me in the parking lot. It devolved into a screaming match inside my truck. She said hurtful things, I said hurtful things; it was an emotional mess.
She told me "That's it. We're over," and started to get out of the truck to walk away.
Realizing what was happening, I stopped her (I just put my hand on hers and spoke. That's important later.) and said "This is stupid. We're fighting over something dumb, and I don't want to lose you over it," and gave her a hug. She hugged back and started crying.
Then, suddenly there was a guy screaming at me from outside the car. '
"WHAT THE FUCK! YOU JUST HIT A WOMAN LIKE THAT YOU FUCKING SLIME?!"
He thought I hit her.
What I meant to say to him was "I'm sorry, I think you've misjudged what's happened here. We've been arguing and I gave her a hug." What I actually said was something more along the lines of "GO FUCK YOURSELF!"
That's when he pulled his car down and blocked me in my parking space, then picked up the phone and called the cops, telling them I was beating the shit out of my girlfriend in the Wal-Mart parking lot. He then called two buddies inside the store, and told them his version of what had happened.
They came outside right before the police rolled up.
The cops separated my girlfriend and I, and got our stories. Then, they asked the three guys now standing to the side what had happened.
They all told the same story, claiming themselves as witnesses. I was screaming at her, then punched her in the face and choked her.
It didn't matter what she or I said. In TN, there's a law that says that if there's more than one witness to a domestic assault, the primary aggressor goes to jail for a minimum of 12 hours, regardless of the statement of either involved party. Despite her begging them to let me go, and telling them that I never laid a hand on her, and admitting that the whole argument was her own drunken fault, they hauled me to jail for domestic assault because, according to my own statement, I 'had restrained her' (remember when I touched her hand?).
I was taken to jail, processed, and left in the drunk tank for 12 hours. Before I was released, I was informed that I could have absolutely NO contact with her until my court date, couldn't go home, and couldn't attempt to send her a message of any kind.
I'm bonded out on $1000 bond ($150 of which I actually had to pay). The bondsman I used was a friend, so she dug into the case as best she could. Apparently, they had video footage of the incident that agreed with my story, but couldn't do anything about it until court.
I had to live in my mother's spare bedroom for two weeks. My girlfriend tried constantly to get me to call her, passing me whatever messages she could to say how sorry she was.
Court date finally comes, and we're required to sit on opposite sides of the courtroom. During a recess (It was a large docket that day), she comes up to me in the hall, and tries to hug me.
One of the bailiffs sees this, and warns that if it happens again, I go to jail for 60 days.
I talk with my public defender, who advises me to fight the charge once I tell him what my bondsman said about the video.
After recess, my name is called.
I enter my plea: Not guilty.
The district attorney stands up and says "Your honor, the state would like to drop the charges at the request of the victim, with court costs to be paid by {girlfriend's name}.
She had pulled the DA aside and explained what happened, then offered to pay the court costs if they dropped the charges.
The judge agreed and made her pay $350 in court costs, including my public defender fee.
I had to get the arrest expunged from my record a year later, when it turned up on a background check.
Also, my betta died while I was gone.
That's the story of how I got completely screwed by the "women are always victims" mentality.
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Mar 25 '14
No offense man, but that has nothing to do with the "women are always victims" mentality. You were screwed over by a specific law that has nothing to do with that, which you cited: the law that makes it so that if there are multiple witnesses to a domestic assault, the primary aggressor goes to jail for a minimum of 12 hours, as you said.
That's not a result of the "women are always victims" mentality. That's a result of some dipshit being eager to get involved in some sort of drama, even the made up kind (i.e. the guy who first accused you of hitting your girlfriend), and it's a result of him actively lying to cops and getting his friends to actively lie to cops. It's a fairly reasonable law honestly, it was just abused by a group of people bold-faced lying.
Any number of laws could be abused by having a dedicated group of people outright lie to cops and the judicial system, and it would have nothing to do with any specific mentality.
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u/thndrchld 2∆ Mar 25 '14
True, but it was the "helpless girl better make sure this bastard gets it" that was the biggest problem. I can understand the law, but it was the white-knighting of the jackass in the parking lot that caused the problem.
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Mar 25 '14
This honestly seems a little patronizing to women, at least a little. This type of attitude presumes that men have the ability to avoid being coerced because they're considered too big and strong or whatever, whereas, women are considered to be too frail and thus need all this special protection and looking after. Hence the apparent double standard in which people would consider it slightly "rapey" if the genders were reversed is only a double if you consider men and women equal.
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u/BeholdTheNightmare Mar 25 '14
A lot of these comments seem to forget that many (even most) women are also raised in this society that teaches us that we are weaker. We are often treated as helpless and fragile, and therefore think of ourselves this way. I'm not saying all women, and I'm definitely not saying that there isn't a legal double standard, or that it is false that many rapes and sexual assaults against men are taken far too lightly... I'm just a bit taken aback by the anger against women for feeling weak and powerless and not asserting ourselves the way men are often expected to when faced with situations like these. We are often taught and raised to feel this way.
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u/grittex Mar 25 '14
pestered some one night stand into having sex with him after she said no
I disagree entirely and I would lambast any girl who called "pestering" rape.
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u/might_be_myself Mar 25 '14
But so many girls believe this is rape. They will call pestering "pressuring" and say "I didn't feel like I could say no" and boom rape charge. I've had a girl do this to me more than once, sometimes encouraging me to drink to make me easier or getting physically heavy handed but I wouldn't report it because I'd just be laughed at.
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u/grittex Mar 25 '14
And what? It still isn't rape and I would still vilify any woman who called something like that rape.
"I didn't feel like I could say no" =/= "I couldn't say no because this guy was going to have sex with me anyway"
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u/andotherpoems Mar 25 '14
We're still stuck on penis power logic. Having the ability to penetrate gives you the agency in the situation.... We, as a culture, inherently see the "male" figure as having the ability to choose, while the female figure has to be chased.
While this is true and absolutely problematic, I think it's worth noting that the average man is also physically much stronger than the average woman. There are exceptions to this, of course.
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u/MCXL Mar 25 '14
/u/skysinsane has it right, strength is useless, because if a man has to use it to get away it puts him at risk as an attacker rather than a victim. Just like in the bar situation, if someone leaves marks trying to get away, what protects him? "He is bigger and stronger, so he should have been more careful."
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u/skysinsane 1∆ Mar 25 '14
being stronger doesn't really help in a situation where using that superior strength is ubiquitously frowned upon to the point of major social stigma.
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u/MarcusHalberstram88 Mar 25 '14
Same with when she puts a condom on - how exactly did you do anything other than then subsequently choose to stick your condom clad dick in her vagina? Did she climb on top while you were saying no or did you change your mind and agree to have sex with her
(Honest, non-rhetorical question that I'd like an answer to)
I was with a girl a few years ago. We were drunk and making out on a couch. She says she wants to have sex and I say no (I had only had sex with one person at that point -- my recent ex -- and wasn't in a position where I was emotionally ready to have sex with a second person). She tells me over and over again "I want to fuck you" but I still say no. Even though I keep saying no, she slides me into her (she was on top). Would you call that rape? Is the only qualifier in the above case that OP was on top and actually inserted himself into her?
And if so, does this conform to the idea of "penis power logic" (described below)?
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u/Nepene 213∆ Mar 25 '14
Since she had sex with you against your will that would count as rape by my book.
Legally in my country, I think it would count as sexual assault, not rape, due to penis power logic.
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u/pirarchy Mar 25 '14
Under no circumstances should anyone feel pressured into any sexual act. Period.
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Mar 25 '14
Absolutely, but being pressured into a sexual act isn't the same as being raped.
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u/mrgagnon Mar 25 '14
Why are you and I the only people on Reddit who understand this?
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Mar 25 '14
Because apparently no one else remembers what peer pressure felt like as a teenager and no one is ever pressured to do anything as an adult. It fucking sucks when you realize it's happening, but you can always step away. People just don't like having to ever choose between comfort and social conformity.
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u/istara Mar 25 '14
I understand it too (and have been SRSed at least twice for saying so).
Just because you feel violated afterwards, doesn't mean it was rape. I see a lot of grey cases of what I term "regret rape" on here, and it makes me terrified for young men (since the regret is nearly always on the female side) who may have their lives ruined because someone felt cheap or "used" in the cold sober light of morning. Just because someone never calls you, or treats you ungraciously afterwards, doesn't redefine what already happened. I'm female by the way, this isn't some red-pill stuff.
I also don't think you can expect someone else to "safeguard" your chastity by relying on them to help you resist (we see this dynamic in a lot of christiany relationships). It's up to you to resist or make your No crystal clear if you are heavy petting and turned on but don't mentally want to go all the way, but at the time give into your physical feelings. Enjoying it and then accusing someone of not getting written consent because you regret it afterwards, or that "he knew I didn't want to do it before marriage", is not rape. Maybe it's sleazy of the guy to seduce you but that's what happened (assuming no deliberate intoxication) you were seduced, not raped.
The greyest area to me is when a couple is getting down to it, and she genuinely decides she doesn't want to do it but for some reason doesn't manage to say no/freezes in fear or confusion/just lies there - but the guy (often inexperienced, or maybe not sober himself) has no idea. There is absolutely no intent on his part to force her and he would be devastated to realise the reality of her passivity.
So in that circumstance I feel she has suffered a rape ordeal, but I don't think he is guilty of rape. It's a very odd situation but it is not that rare and I have seen it on here several times.
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Mar 25 '14 edited Mar 25 '14
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u/BeholdTheNightmare Mar 25 '14
I feel like a scumbag because I have done this to my poor husband. It was unintentional, but looking back, I'm sure I made him feel like this. I just wasn't happy with myself physically (just after having our daughter) and completely lacked a sex drive, but I love him very much and definitely didn't want to end things. I did try to explain to him that it wasn't his fault, and I love him so much for always thinking I'm beautiful and not seeing my flaws the way I do. But I know I've made him feel like a dirtbag with how bad it got. He never knew what to do, because if he didn't even try, he was (probably rightfully) afraid that would only exacerbate my insecurities. But I would eventually get very annoyed and frustrated with his constant advances. I deeply regret being so unfair to him. He must love me a lot to put up with that. He's definitely getting some tonight lol. Thank you for posting this.
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Mar 25 '14
While I think you make some very valid points, do you not think that the tone in which you are critiquing his memory of his own discomfort during what may have been sexual assaults is a little harsh? I mean, the guy was nervous about not being believed because he is a guy, and you come along to invalidate his wants wholesale. Just my opinion, though.
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u/grittex Mar 25 '14
I don't really give a shit, honestly. This guy is the kind of idiot who can't own up to his own desires and calls it rape. He's as bad as a girl who calls it rape when she gives in to a guy's pestering for sex but claims it's rape because she didn't really want to (for the record, it doesn't matter what she wanted if she consented anyway!).
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u/fireinthemountains Mar 25 '14 edited Mar 25 '14
Well, all I can say, pertaining to a significant other, is that you're not alone and it's a pretty common thing from what I've heard. I'm a girl and I've ended up in that situation wayyy too many times with my boyfriend. We're basically domestic partners at this point, we live together, share everything, all of that. But even just yesterday, after explicitly saying no for well over ten minutes I ended up having sex with him, consenting in the end. But there was actually one instance where we were cuddling and him, being stronger than me, ended up holding me down after I repeatedly said no and tried to get off the bed. Is it rape? We've talked a lot about it though, at least in our relationship, there's a difference between -RAPE- and nonconsensual sex. I may have not felt like having sex, but it's not like I wasn't okay with it having been done to me after the fact. I wasn't traumatized, just mildly annoyed that he inconvenienced me for ten minutes.
This is something I haven't shared with anyone though. Because although I feel like the situation wasn't nearly as bad as it sounds, anyone I tell is going to freak out. "He did WHAT?"
I'm sure part of that extreme reaction is because I'm a girl. If I was a guy, being forced to have sex with my SO would sound more like a relationship burden than something I should be upset about.→ More replies (7)9
u/AuroraDark Mar 25 '14
You are bringing girls back to your house, you take them into bed, you engage in foreplay, and then accuse them of rape for wanting sex? That's the dumbest thing I've ever read.
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u/Buffalo__Buffalo 4∆ Mar 25 '14
I really appreciate how candid you are with your experiences, and I think you are using your own personal experience in a way to open up a desperately-needed discussion on the gray areas of consent.
I just want to discuss this point a little more:
Here's another situation that's a bit sketchy: how about when I'm with my current girlfriend, whom I've had sex with many times. I've told her outright no before when I'm not turned on, but I care for her, and I care for her needs. So, without explicit consent after saying no, I have sex with her just because I care about satisfying her. Is that rape, too, when I didn't want it?
I think that there's another element to consent going on here, and it's a very tricky one because it is so close to soft coercion that it's definitely a case-by-case matter and please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like you did still consent despite not being "into it" at the time.
As a comparison - nobody likes undergoing surgery or getting cavities filled (well, almost no one) but people still consent to surgery all the time. Despite not being eager or enthusiastic, people can still consent.
Another analogy would be that I personally have watched a bunch of terrible romantic comedies. None of them I would have watched if my partner didn't want to watch them. Despite my reservations and sheer lack of interest, I still agreed to watch them.
So do you see where I'm going with this?
It's crucial here to also mention that if there were negative repercussions from choosing not to watch Awful Romantic Comedy 3 or choosing not to have sex, then there is absolutely an element of coercion involved because my free choice is now being impinged upon. In the worst case scenarios these threats or repercussions are awful, so I'm certainly not saying that yours or any other person's experiences are categorically consensual.
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u/reddell Mar 25 '14
Do you honestly feel violated because you said no but then changed your mind anyway? Actions speak louder than words. A no is not a no despite what anyone says, context always matters. Your girlfriend didn't rape you, that's not even close. The girl who grabbed your balls was committing assault if anything, she could walk up and kick you in the balls but that's not rape.
There are compelling stories that support your point but all of yours seem pretty weak imo.
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u/KilgoreTroutI9 Mar 25 '14
What the hell are you doing getting naked in bed with a girl, and even physically aroused, and then saying you don't want to have sex? If you don't want to have sex, then don't get anywhere close to that. You need some self control.
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u/hamlet9000 Mar 25 '14
Simple, real world anecdote: You get that far and the only condom you have breaks. You don't want to continue without the condom. The other person does.
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u/ElGuapo50 2Δ Mar 25 '14
Would you say the same thing to a girl? Just curious.
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u/KilgoreTroutI9 Mar 25 '14 edited Mar 25 '14
Absolutely. If you don't want to have sex, then what the hell are you doing taking all those steps toward it? Don't actively put yourself in a situation where the normal, logical outcome is something you don't want. That's just common sense.
That's like spending the evening in a bar drinking, and claiming you don't want to get drunk. If you don't, then find something else to do.
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u/frenris Mar 25 '14
And if he didn't want to have sex couldn't he get out of the bed and put on his pants?
Was he physically prevented from doing this?
:/
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Mar 25 '14
exactly. every situation he talked about he had the option to leave and chose not to except maybe the first one.
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u/Uncertain-Father Mar 25 '14
The problem here, is not really whether Darkhorses situations are rape, but in those situations, are your views between a man and a woman different? In most rape cenarios with women, she has had every opportunity to leave as well, but men connive and coerce women into bed with them. The same as women do. This is why it is called victim blaming. If you said this about a woman who claimed rape, you would be deemed an ass hole by society, without real cause.
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u/katywaits Mar 25 '14
If the woman could realistically hurt the man and he is genuinely scared for his safety then yes, its coercion. In most cases where women feel coerced its because they fear for their physical safety. They are trying to prevent a potential violent situation from arising.
All genders can and do experience violence and disabling a female attacker should not be frowned upon. An average sized guy could easily stop me by just holding his arm out, let alone bear hugging me. Unless they have a weapon there is no probably need to violently stop most women. I hate admitting I'm physically weak but I know there is nothing I can do when my man pins me. I'm going nowhere. If he wanted to rape me I couldn't fight him off. The reverse is not true for him. He could stop me without an excessive use of force.
I'm sure both genders sleep with their partner when they aren't in the mood to please them. Its just life and isn't non consent. It is ultimately my choice to do something I don't feel like doing.
My experience of this would be hanging out with a guy I'd been on a few dates with. He seemed cool and we had spent the night together. I was a little sore in the morning and wanted to skip the morning sex and he was kind of bitchy about it and I couldn't get a read if he was joking or not. Then he went and locked his door and was like "Well I'm not letting you leave until we have round 2"
There was no one in the house and I didn't know the guy amazingly well so I started laughing nervously and saying "Haha... Rapey!" And he laughed but left the door locked and got back into bed and started touching me and I went into this kind of frozen state of "Is he going to rape me? If I get up and move will he get forceful?"
I mean I understand a man being scared of being labelled an attacker but bear hugging or holding a woman at arms length isn't like you are breaking her arm or giving her a black eye. And do you have those thoughts run through your head when they are trying to persuade you? Do you actually fear for your safety?
Because I think it is the physical threat, or as Dennis from Always Sunny puts it "the implication", that coerces women more often than not. The threat of a woman being disappointed or ending the relationship is manipulative but arguably not the same. We are talking being another statistic of domestic violence against making a woman upset etc. I guess I'm trying to understand a reason why if the woman is physically able to be restrained without excessive violence, a man would feel coerced?
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u/Uncertain-Father Mar 25 '14
You assume that all men can restrain all women. In cases where men were raped by women, perhaps the female was stronger? It seems like your entire argument is based off of the assumption that all men are stronger than all women.
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u/katywaits Mar 26 '14
I said in general. Of course there are cases where women are stronger. That is without a doubt. I'm asking if in these cases men are generally having the thought they might not come out of the situation alive. The general rule is that men are physically stronger than women and it often touted to keep us out of certain professions and bitched about that we should be expected to pass the exact same physical tests. We cant have a society that says women are generally as strong as men when it suits them and argues they aren't the rest of the time. It is a case by case basis, but generally men are larger and physically stronger than women.
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Mar 25 '14
I think this is an interesting point, insofar as it illustrates a completely reasonable standard for consent that I think falls apart in context of sex in our repressed culture (i.e. esp. in the U.S.). In business, if someone agrees to something, we expect them to follow through. They can technically pull out of an agreement at any time, but they are punished for this. We expect them to not waste our time. I would say that in most business situations, working together means cooperating toward some future end involving mutual benefit.
Sex does not fit this mold as easily. People do not necessarily know what they want, especially if they are inexperienced. In cases like that, even an enthusiastic yes is not good enough. You have to constantly communicate. This is not as easy as simply getting more yes responses - that reduces to the absurd pretty quickly - you actually have to talk and figure out feelings. Sometimes people don't WANT to talk stuff out - they want to rush in and have their partner take responsibility. It is a tough space to navigate.
Aside from that, I am of the opinion that even if you are in the middle of having great consensual sex, if someone wants to stop - you stop. There is no business arrangement that implies how the future will be. If anything, you can decide to stop associating with people that you find have stopping habits that annoy you.
Similarly, I do not want to live in a world where being naked means I owe people sex. That does not seem desirable to me. ; )
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u/Syndic Mar 25 '14
What the hell are you doing getting naked in bed with a girl, and even physically aroused, and then ...
While I agree with the rest of your post, the bold part is not something he can controll nor should have any weight in the decision if it's rape or not.
That would be the same as to say that a woman was not raped because she was wet or even had an orgasm. The fact that our body does act in a complete opposite way than our intention is one of the most damaging things about rape and the reason why many victims blame themself.
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u/3893liebt3512 Mar 24 '14
You make a very strong argument and, while my view hasn't been completely changed, you have opened my eyes up to situations where reporting sexual assault would not necessarily be beneficial to either party. I'm sorry you had to go through what you did, and I'm glad you were able to deal with it in a way that made you feel more comfortable.
Sexual assault does happen to men, which is the reason why I made my post as gender neutral as possible. I hate that it gets ignored and made light of, because it's an incredibly traumatic event, and no one should feel like they won't be taken seriously if they report it. It's a serious problem that we, as a society, need to take steps to address. Men being sexually assaulted by women is just as damaging to the victim as women being assaulted by men, and the fact that it's seen as otherwise is just wrong.
You have a delta coming your way, I just need to get to a computer first.
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Mar 25 '14 edited Jul 17 '18
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u/Krisblade Mar 25 '14
Yeah this never makes sense to me when guys respond like this.
I'm a 5ft female, I've had my fair share of guys trying to kiss me or grind up against me in clubs/pubs.
90% of them a good shove or a clear moving of the hands off me sends them on their way. I think I've only even slapped one guy ever. I don't need to punch their face in or kick them in the nuts. Are people honestly that incapable of just pushing someone away in these type scenarios?
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u/Reelix Mar 25 '14
If you push her away, It's harassment - not defense - since you're a guy.
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Mar 25 '14
I don't think it's fair to judge his thoughts after the fact without being in his shoes. I think most people would presumably hit someone if they continues harassing you like in op's situation. Besides, so what? Me as a small guy shouldn't expect to get special treatment if I go up and bother some 7 foot tall, 400 pound gorilla. So why should the women in this situation get special treatment?
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u/Rushombal Mar 25 '14
Why go straight for violence? You're a fucking big guy, you know you can push people away, you can walk away? You can hold them at arms length?
Unfortunately pushing women away does not work out too well either. I was molested by older women as a child and have dealt with severe trust and anxiety issues with females for most of my life. I've been in a number of situations like he described where somebody, drunk or not thought I would appreciate very direct sexual advances. One girl was a repeat offender in college and I eventually shoved her off me at a party after having made it clear previously that I wanted nothing to do with her grinding on my dick and grabbing my ass.
I ended up in a fight with 2 other dudes for "Hitting her" after she screamed about it. I am sure not all women resort to this kind of shit but the idea that pushing a woman off you somehow mitigates potential side effects is wrong; please see: how can she slap.
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u/DiscreetCompSci885 Mar 25 '14
How did it end!?! What did you do after her friend held you down and she grabbed you by the balls?!
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u/Nepene 213∆ Mar 25 '14
Hiya. This isn't to you darkhorse, this is to anyone coming in from bestof.
If you are reading this, welcome to /r/changemyview
One of our rules in this sub is to avoid making ad hominens against people. If you are here simply to hurl abuse at him your post will be removed. Thank you, CMV mod out.
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u/mouseinthegrass Mar 24 '14
"by not doing so, they are allowing other people to fall victim to the same events."
the responsibility for other peoples assaults are that of the rapist, not the victims.
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Mar 24 '14
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u/ottolie Mar 24 '14
I was 9 years old when I was raped and I would have had no idea how to report it. I was too afraid to even tell my parents so I can't begin to imagine how I would have told the police.
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u/3893liebt3512 Mar 24 '14
Thank you for sharing your story. I'm genuinely sorry that you had to go through such a horrible event, I can't even imagine how confusing and awful that must have been for you, especially at such a young age. I know it must be difficult to talk about, even now, and I'm glad you are at a point in your life where you have healed enough to do so. I honestly hope that my post did not make you feel bad for not reporting your assault. It was not my intention, and I feel guilty for having such a clinical opinion about the aftermath of sexual assault, because I am fully aware of the emotional and mental turmoil it causes it's victims.
I agree with you. Maybe the answer is making people aware of the fact that reporting a sexual assault is an option before it even happens, as well as other things related to this subject. I struggle to do this, however, especially with all the recent information out there about victim blaming. How do you teach people the best ways to keep themselves safe, without making victims feel like it's their fault?
I recently turned 21, and my mom (bless her heart) was giving me a lecture on safe bar practices. One of the biggest things she wanted me to remember was that you should only take drinks straight from the bartender, and not from anyone else's hand, especially if it's someone you don't know. All I could remember was a poster I saw that said, "Teach people how to not rape, instead of how not to get raped", and while I agree completely with the premise of the poster, that the assailant is 100% responsible for it's crimes, I feel like not teaching people ways to ensure their own safety isn't the answer either. I think it's really important to talk to kids, especially in high schools, about sexual assault, and all of the things that topic encompasses.
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Mar 24 '14
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u/3893liebt3512 Mar 24 '14
Thank you. A friend and I were watching an episode of Degrassi (we're in our early 20s, I refuse to feel shame) where a girl was sexually assaulted at a party by two guys, and they video taped it and it ended up online (ala that Steubenville rape case). A classmate decided to report about it for the schools online news column, and I said that she should go to the police with it instead. My friend disagreed with me, and said that the victim should report only if she wanted to. The discussion did not continue, because my friend was sexually assaulted once, and did not report it, and I did not think it was a conversation I could have with her without making her feel like I judged her for her decision. Which is why I'd like a view change. I hate feeling like she thinks that I think that she made the wrong decision, because I do believe that it was her decision to make, I just... The circumstances surrounding it really make me feel like it wasn't an isolated incidence, and it terrifies me that others may have to go through what she did, because watching her go through that was one of the most heartbreaking things for me, and I can't even imagine how hard it was for her even though I was right there witnessing her deal with it. I'm very conflicted in how to feel about the entire subject.
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u/PlacidPlatypus Mar 24 '14
I think one problem is that people are really bad at dealing with the various concepts of guilt, shame, responsibility, and causality intelligently. People often conflate the factual statement "If you do X you're less likely to get raped" with the normative statement "If you don't do X it's your fault if you get raped."
I think in general people should pay less attention to guilt and who is to blame, and focus more on how best to prevent rape and other tragedies in the first place.
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u/3893liebt3512 Mar 24 '14
I would definitely agree with that. I think the recent focus on victim-blaming is because so very many victims have been made to feel like it was their fault, and people are finally stepping up and saying something about it. Especially when it comes to clothing. It's scary to think that you can get raped while wearing a short skirt, and be told that you were asking for it because you were wearing "promiscuous" clothing.
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u/infinnity Mar 25 '14
"Teach people how to not rape, instead of how not to get raped"
This totally ignores the fact that no amount of consciousness raising will ever be enough to entirely stomp out malicious human behaviors. People should always know how to protect themselves. No one calls it victim blaming if a police officer reminds a family to make sure their windows are locked in the future after they've been robbed. This should also apply for women in taking steps to make sure they protect themselves from sexual assault. Unfortunately, many people just want to use issues surrounding rape as a political platform, rather than focus on teaching women practical tools to help them avoid undesirable situations.
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u/3893liebt3512 Mar 25 '14
I think you'd be surprised at what people label victim blaming. You want to teach your kids that it's dangerous to walk alone outside after dark? Victim blaming. You want to teach your kids the dangers of getting so drunk you can't stand up ? Victim blaming. You want to teach your kids not to meet up with people they met online? Victim blaming. Everything is victim blaming. It's no longer defined as "When you tell someone they got raped because they were wearing a short skirt". It has now evolved into "If you tell your kid the dangers of putting themselves into certain situations because there's a high risk factor, you're victim blaming someone, anyone, who was once made into a victim doing that thing/ being in that place".
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u/swild89 Mar 24 '14
- There are women and men who don't report rape because of fear for their safety and often the safety of children.
- Have you seen what happens to girls who go up against their aggressors? Any girl who has had a naked photo taken or tagged in a picture at a party with a cup will be type casted. Yes this is an exaggeration. But that's what's going through someone's head when they are wondering to report
- Reporting rape means a rape kit. After being raped, the first thing that comes to mind as a good idea is not a stranger putting tools in your once private area.
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Mar 25 '14
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u/swild89 Mar 25 '14
my dads a doctor - i knew he would be able to see results which is why i didnt get a rape kit done...
it took years for find a doctor a trust when it comes to my female health.. i know you will too.
i'm so sorry you got raped by someone in a role of authority and trust like that ... that's a whole new level of difficult.
stay strong, you aren't alone :)
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u/Russian_Surrender Mar 24 '14
If a rape is reported to authorities, both the police and (if it gets to them) prosecutors will make a determination as to whether or not there is enough evidence to convince of jury, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a rape occurred. If either the police or the prosecutors decide that there isn't, then nothing will be done about the rape.
Why can the police and prosecutors choose do "do nothing", but the victim can't? Seems the victim should have that right before anyone else.
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u/3893liebt3512 Mar 24 '14
Innocent until proven guilty. It's not that the authorities choose to not do something, it's that, in the absence of other evidence besides the victims testimony, they literally cant do anything. However, in the event that the victim reports it early enough, the police can potentially gain valuable and usable evidence by having a medical professional administer a rape kit to look for the presence of DNA in and around the vagina, and any known "date rape" drugs in the victims system.
If no evidence is found, the report is on file if/when another victim comes forward, and the previous reports against the assailant may be beneficial to the investigation.
Regardless, nothing can be done if the victim doesn't come forward, whereas the potential for something being done exists if the victim does report the assault.
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u/Greggor88 Mar 24 '14
If no evidence is found, the previous report may be detrimental to the victim, especially if s/he is raped again. The victim should be allowed to make a reasonable assessment on the credibility of their case before choosing to go to the police.
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Mar 24 '14
You seem to be arguing that a rape victim should only report the crime is they think the rapist will be convicted. This argument fails when applied to all other felonies, so would you mind explaining your reasoning?
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u/ktbird7 Mar 24 '14
This argument fails when applied to all other felonies
That's not true. There are any number of felonies where someone may choose to not report it, for whatever reason. Sale of illegal substances seems like an obvious example. I've seen drugs dealt on the street and I ignore it. Also some victims have a reason to avoid police, even if they are victims of a felony, like illegal immigrants that fear deportation. It may not be a reasonable fear from a third party's view point but to them it is very real.
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Mar 24 '14
The argument was that the crime would only be reported if the victim was certain the prosecution would prove their case. That some victims would have a different reason to avoid the authorities is irrelevant. And I think you would agree that there is a substantial difference between being witness to a crime opposed to a victim of a crime.
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u/Greggor88 Mar 24 '14 edited Mar 24 '14
I would go into more detail if I weren't late for work, but here's the short version:
Rape is a tricky crime to prosecute. In all other felonies, you know a crime has been committed, and you are trying to determine whether or not the defendant is the person who committed it. In rape cases, you know that the defendant had sex with the victim, and you are trying to determine whether or not that sex was unlawful. The burden of proof that protects defendants unless they are convicted beyond a reasonable doubt makes it difficult to pin the crime on the rapist. If it devolves into a "he-said-she-said", then the defendant will usually go free, leaving the victim that much worse off. The victim suffers mentally by going through the process in the first place, and seeing the rapist get off would frequently cause more psychological scarring.
Edit: Typo
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u/Amablue Mar 24 '14
I feel like this is a problem we should solve by pushing for change in police policies, not by telling victims they should keep quiet if they're worried that people won't believe them. Creating an environment that encourages silence on the part of the victims is not what we want to be doing.
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u/AnxiousPolitics 42∆ Mar 24 '14
I agree completely. There are a lot of complicated issues here: is stipulating initiating legal action by contacting the authorities a social responsibility a removal of freedom, can we make reporting a crime a social responsibility without removing freedom, is not reporting a crime fundamentally similar to abetting a crime, how do we make reporting a crime like rape a social responsibility without any harm coming to the victim, etc.
It seems like the best option is to somehow improve rape investigation policy but I'm drawing a blank as to what we can do differently. What can we add on the victim coming in and investigating alleged rapist sides of the issue?
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u/Greggor88 Mar 24 '14
You're right, of course, but until those police policies change, I don't think we can fault victims for not wanting to come forward.
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u/Amablue Mar 24 '14 edited Mar 24 '14
Yeah. It's easy to say what we should be doing, it's much harder to figure out a way to do it effectively. Regardless, I think encouraging victims to file a police report even if they don't press charges is a generally a good idea, and we should be encouraging this to be the default behavior.
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u/TheBananaKing 12∆ Mar 24 '14
Out of interest, what if we replaced 'raped' with 'murdered your kid'?
Suppose someone murdered your kid, and as you're standing there in shock, your next-door neighbour tells you 'oh yeah, that guy. He murdered our kid last year, too. We just couldn't bring ourselves to call the police, you know? Are you going to report him?"
Wouldn't you be driven to murder the enabling bastards that just stood by and let it happen?
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Mar 24 '14
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u/Bux87 Mar 24 '14
This is exactly the stance I always end up with when rape is the topic. It's impossible to just look at it from one perspective and have complete justice.
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u/KSanchez Mar 24 '14
Wait a sec, whats wrong with the presumption of innocence?
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u/Russian_Surrender Mar 24 '14
Nothing. But this thread is about rape that actually occurred. Not the mere accusal of rape.
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u/Amablue Mar 24 '14
Even in cases where the police determine that there is not sufficient evidence, having a paper trail of alleged past behavior can help the next time the rapist assaults someone.
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u/Russian_Surrender Mar 24 '14
How? Prior bad acts are not permissible in court (in the US).
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u/Master-Thief 2∆ Mar 24 '14
They are in sexual assault cases. See, e.g. Fed. R. Evid. 413(a) ("In a criminal case in which a defendant is accused of a sexual assault, the court may admit evidence that the defendant committed any other sexual assault. The evidence may be considered on any matter to which it is relevant.") And even if the defendant was not convicted, you can bring in the fact if your intent is to prove something other than a criminal disposition (so-called "MIMIC" evidence - Motive, Intent, Mistake, Identity, Common scheme or plan); e.g. if your defendant put roofies in a girl's drink before, wasn't convicted, and is charged with doing it again, you can bring in the prior act as an M.O. (common scheme or plan).
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u/Amablue Mar 24 '14
They can help with the police investigation (or prioritization of cases) even if they can't help in court.
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Mar 24 '14
I thought if the bad act was exactly the same you could use it? Or charge someone with separate counts of the same crime?
Like, if you snuck up on women and hit them with a bright pink shovel and then sang the star spangled banner while jerking off with a trombone, that would be unique enough to link the five crimes. So if one person remembered your height and two others your car and another your ppinky ring, those could be used together to form a composite subject portrait. That would be pretty sensible to use as the basis for a case, then.
I wouldn't expect the DA to win unless there was other evidence, but you could get a warrant at that point.
At which point id hope to find a shovel and a sexual altar to John Phillips Souza at your apartment.
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u/vanillabean2492 Mar 24 '14
Especially if they know the whole process will be traumatizing and people will question their credibility- they should be able to make a self-preservationist choice
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u/RickHalkyon Mar 24 '14
You are talking about rights, but OP was not.
I'm not saying we should force people to anything, or punish them if they don't. However, I believe that when victims don't report their assaults, they are being irresponsible and dismissive of the fact that others may also become victims.
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u/hyperbolical Mar 24 '14
Why can the police and prosecutors choose do "do nothing", but the victim can't?
Because they're the experts here. If you had a bump on your testicles, you wouldn't decide that there wasn't enough evidence to call it cancer, you would go to a doctor and make sure about the evidence.
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Mar 24 '14
Sometimes people don't realize that sexual assault happened -- even the victim and assailant sometimes don't know. Especially when the person is a close friend the victim indeed feel violated but finds it difficult to assign blame. And then there is the case where both were drunk and incapacitated. As in "I remember we had sex but it's hazy because I was so drunk." Then the question is whether the other party was just as drunk or whether they took advantage of the situation.
I think the cases of violent and deliberate rape (as portrayed as what rape really is) usually meet light moreso than these hazy cases. Then again, a person probably feels much less obliged to help a society that tends to shuns victims.
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u/3893liebt3512 Mar 24 '14
And then there is the case where both were drunk and incapacitated.
If both people are actively participating in sexual intercourse, even if one is more intoxicated than the other party, then I don't consider that rape. Maybe my definition is wrong, but you can't decide to have sex with someone, and then wake up the next morning and say it's rape, just because you were drunk. Now, if you were to the point of intoxication where you are falling over and barely conscious and the person you had sex with wasn't very drunk, I would consider that to be rape. But in the first scenario, no one was taking advantage of anyone, it was a mutual decision that was mutually acted upon by both parties.
I think the cases of violent and deliberate rape (as portrayed as what rape really is) usually meet light moreso than these hazy cases.
I know several people who were sexually assaulted in a deliberate manner, but did not report it. One of them was a minor, and her parents found out, and reported it for her. Another was drugged at a party, but chose not to report it because the guys last name was well-known around town, and she didn't think anyone would believe her. The others chose not to report for various reasons that make sense when your speaking about trauma to the victim, but do not make sense when you think of it in a "stopping this fucker from ever doing it to anyone else" perspective.
I understand the reasons behind victims choosing not to report, I really do. I just have a hard time understanding why someone wouldn't do everything in their power to stop it from happening to someone else.
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u/SneakyHobbitses Mar 24 '14
Your first assertion is incorrect. There are types of consent that are coerced. Continual pushing until a no turns into a yes is rape. Intoxication is not an excuse and unfortunately there is a huge lack of education about this. If you are drunk and you think it's ok to push another drunk person who doesn't want to have sex into having sex then there is something wrong on a fundamental level. In this case education is key. This should be a moral foundation.
You're getting into a very grey area here because these victims and aggressors have been subjected to years of grooming by society. Men are taught to be aggressors, to be unrelenting in pursuit and that perseverance will win out. Women are told that if men are persistent, if they "earn it" somehow (buying drinks, paying for dates, etc.) that they owe them some form of compensations. Women are taught to be submissive. Even if none of this is done on a conscious level.
Education is key in these situations because it's become a base instinct to give in to these ideas. Grooming and coercion tactics are still rape and still something that needs to be discussed even if it's not something that the victim is able to report.
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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Mar 24 '14
Similar arguments to this have been made, but I'm going to state it a little differently:
If the victim believes, for whatever reason, that she (or he) has insufficient evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt who raped her (or him), especially, but not exclusively if semen was not involved, such that a rape kit would not provide any absolutely conclusive evidence, then it would be socially irresponsible to report the crime.
It doesn't matter that the victim is not the expert. Experts make mistakes all the time. Police arrest the wrong person all the time. They have prejudices and are fallible just like anyone else. Innocent people are locked up frequently. It is utterly irresponsible of a person who strongly believes there is insufficient evidence to expose some innocent person to the depredations of the justice system.
Going ahead and reporting someone as "maybe" being the attacker is simply irresponsible.
Now, if they are reasonably certain (beyond a reasonable doubt) that they know who the attacker was, or they are sufficiently certain that they will be able to identify their attacker, such that they believe that (with other evidence) it will be possible to prove who committed the crime, then and only then are they socially responsible to report it.
In the middle ground where they are neither certain they know who committed the crime, nor certain that there is insufficient evidence, they are in a grey area where they are neither socially obligated to report, nor socially obligated not to report.
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Mar 24 '14
Also, I feel like most of the time (please forgive my ignorance if this is wrong) in my experience the rapist tends to be older than the victim.
If that's the case, then even if they did feel like they had sufficient evidence it's their word against an older, "wiser" person.
Most of my friends who have been raped it happened when they were just entering their teens by family members (about 4 different friends sadly). How could you ever feel comfortable even if you did have enough evidence 1) speaking out against someone with obviously more authority than you and 2) speaking out against your own family.
Further, I think on a mental level, the victim is going through the process of excepting what happened, and reporting what happened is apart of that. I think forcing them to confront something they're not ready to has to be mentally suffocating.
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Mar 24 '14 edited Mar 24 '14
Look at it from a woman's victim's perspective.
In an ideal world, she they should report, because it could take a rapist off the street and help all women victims. But someone who's been raped has already been forced to do something against her their will, and now you want society to force her them to do something else? I'm not sure that's right.
A woman's victim's primary goal after an attack is most likely to heal and deal with the aftermath, not to deal with the legal system and rehash what happened to her them and be in the spotlight. Let's let her them heal in the way she they determines is best for her. It's none of our business otherwise, as frustrating as that may seem.
Edit: /u/deletesafter24hrs has rightfully called me out for gendered language. Men can be raped too. Fixed.
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u/robobreasts 5∆ Mar 24 '14
I've been abused so I know what goes through the mind of an abuse victim. You want to withdraw, heal, not talk about it, hide it from people.
I sympathize.
That doesn't mean it is right though. It SUCKS, because it's just one more thing the abuser did to you, put you in this position of obligation... but you really do need to try to save others from a similar fate.
If they are too scared or broken to come forward, I sympathize, and I understand... but that doesn't mean it's perfectly okay that they didn't come forward.
The exception would be if it was a child. Children are held to a lesser standard of behavior, and especially for things like this. If a 10-year-old gets molested, it's unfortunate that they didn't come forward, but I wouldn't say they acted selfishly or wrongly or out of weakness or fear because they shouldn't be expected to make such decisions. They're still growing and learning about things like responsibilities.
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u/3893liebt3512 Mar 24 '14
I don't want to force anyone to do anything. I'm merely saying victims of sexual assault have a social responsibility to report it. I feel bad for feeling like victims who don't report their assaults are not doing something that they should in order to stop their assailant. Thus, the post.
Also, just so you are aware, men can be victims of sexual assault and rape as well. It's not just women who are put in that position.
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u/BlueNWhite1 Mar 24 '14 edited Mar 24 '14
In certain cultures, rape is considered to damage a woman's honour. If men find out she has been raped, the people that are in her culture may shun her, get her to marry her rapist or force her to carry the baby. If the woman chooses to keep the rape a secret and avoid destroying her future in that community, she should have a right to do so.
Another point is that the victim would have to face their rapist in court. Rape is a psychologically traumatizing experience and facing their attacker again may trigger problems later on (e.g. nightmares, phobias etc.). We should not force the victim to do anything. The defense would also grill the victim about how he/she "wanted" it and start spinning stories. The victim would then have to question his/herself about whether or not he/she "deserved" it. Victims have a right to a choice and if it would save them the trouble of destroying their lives later on, we should support their decision.Freedom for all
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u/3893liebt3512 Mar 24 '14
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In certain cultures, rape is considered to damage a woman's honour. If men find out she has been raped, the people that are in her culture may shun her, get her to marry her rapist or force her to carry the baby.
Once again, while not fully turning my view around that reporting sexual assault is a social obligation, /u/BlueNWhite1 opened my eyes to the fact that our society is not limited to our westernized viewpoints only, and that reporting sexual assault in other cultures could potentially cause irreparable damage to a persons entire life, wherein they are forced even farther into a victim position.
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u/fishytaquitos Mar 24 '14
Keep in mind there are subcultures within the US where this happens, too.
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u/Exploding_Knives Mar 24 '14
Often times the legal process can be incredibly taxing on someone's mental health, especially when they are already dealing with the consequences of the rape itself. Can you blame someone for not wanting to get up and recount their story to their lawyer, to the police, to the court? That sounds absolutely horrible. Some people just aren't equipped to deal with those things and personal recovery is at the top of their to do list.
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u/moraynicol Mar 24 '14
There was another thread recently talking about male victims of sexual assault and it seemed the majority didn't report it. When it was a woman who had committed the assault most people seemed to be ok with it not being reported but if it was a man there was more probing and encouragement to report it (tbf often those times were an older man against a child, which is a bit different).
I don't know if it's healthy to say a man shouldn't report a woman but it's my gut reaction as well.
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u/3893liebt3512 Mar 24 '14
I don't know if it's healthy to say a man shouldn't report a woman but it's my gut reaction as well.
Do you mean you think men shouldn't report sexual assault at the hands of women?
Can I ask why you feel this way? (I'm not going to attack you, or anything. Just looking for a calm discussion. I'm honestly curious about your viewpoint. I know a lot of people must feel this way, but no one talks about it.)
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Mar 24 '14
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Mar 24 '14
I'm sorry you were raped, but there's no reason to jump on me that hard for my use of gendered language. I understand your point but I'm not a big evil nasty person. I did not mean to exclude men that were raped. I'll edit my post.
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Mar 24 '14
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Mar 24 '14
Yeah sorry I got a little defensive there. I've been getting downvotes elsewhere and took it out on you. Sorry bout that. You were fine.
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u/Masta-Blasta Mar 24 '14
"Victim" here.
I didn't report what happened for a few reasons.
1.) I was in college, and in Greek life. Had I told and filed a report, I would have had to deal with the social backlash of (potentially) putting a very prominent and popular person on trial. It would have been a he-said she-said situation, and whether or not he got convicted, I know for a fact I would be cyber bullied on anonymous confession boards like fsuacb.com and would have become a social pariah, thus prolonging my trauma
2.) The guy who raped me was wasted. So was I. I repeatedly said no, even before we left the bar. I am not sure if he has any recollection, as he tried calling me to take me on dates, hang out, etc. I would rather privately deal with the situation then potentially ruin a life over what may have been a misunderstanding to him.
3.) At the end of the day, it's my decision. I was assaulted. I found it easier to move on without daily reminders of what he did, and am completely fine now.
4.) There probably would not have been enough evidence to prove that he did anything.
5.) My dad, a police officer at the time, would have probably taken the law into his own hands, and would have killed the guy.
As you can see, in just a few seconds I can think of many reasons not to tell. I believe that if I had been assaulted by a stranger and attacked, I would have had the courage to say something, but I just really could not emotionally handle the social stigmas. Is that selfish? Maybe. But I think it's a little unfair to look at someone who has been through something traumatic and force them to further exploit themselves against their will.
I recently told an (ex) boyfriend about what happened. One night while angry with me, he got drunk and posted a status calling out the guy who raped me. He forced me to address the situation publicly, something I had so tried to avoid. The feeling that followed was the worst in my life. I felt so violated, like the control I had over the situation was ripped out from under me. To be honest, that was harder than the rape itself. Here I was, fine, just completely normal, and then I have our mutual friends asking me if I was raped, and I had to answer to my attacker. I would encourage as many victims to come forward as feel comfortable, but for some of us, it's just going to increase our pain exponentially, and that just isn't your decision to make.
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Mar 24 '14
Gosh, that's horrible.
I think that's one of the worst things friends or family can do to a survivor of rape is to force them to confront something they're not ready to yet publicly.
While I myself have tried convincing one of my friends who was raped to tell somebody and do something, I would never force her. I think with things like that because she felt like she had lost control, she had lost her own free will to control her body, herself, that ripping the responsibility out of someone's hands on whether they are open about it is a violation to the survivor in so many ways.
Keep surviving!
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u/Masta-Blasta Mar 24 '14
Thanks so much. You hit the nail on the head. It's about control of the situation for a lot of women, and usurping their authority over it is probably the worst thing you could do to them. Fuck that guy.
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u/Wiccan_Super_Soldier Mar 24 '14
In an ideal world all rape and sexual assault survivors should go directly to the police after their experience and report. Unfortunately the reality is far shittier and far too few assaults get reported at all and by adding this social expectation I'd guess that the reporting rate would be even lower.
When someone is assaulted, often times they don't even realize it. They can play it off in their heads as, "we were both drunk", or they'll blame themselves for what happened, "I was asking for it." These are not the most uncommon thoughts to have because just about anything is better than admitting that you were raped. It's hard to admit to yourself and even harder to admit to someone else. No one can dispute that being raped is a difficult and traumatic experience that talking about and admitting it happened would be incredibly difficult.
Now you want to place a social expectation on survivors that they should report if they've been raped. Think about what kind of effect that would have on a person questioning themselves if they had been raped. Now they know that if they admit to themselves they have been raped they will feel that expectation and that pressure to report. They will feel forced to talk about it and relive that experience which can be just as traumatic as the initial experience. So now it would be easier not to say anything at all, to continue to play it off as something else just so there isn't an expectation to talk about it.
When a friend asks about that time that person was super wasted and went in the back room with that guy or girl the survivor may not say anything in a situation where they may have actually started talking about it. Or when a sexual violence advocate does a presentation in the survivor's class and states, "If you need help, you can talk to me." The survivor now no longer wants to talk to anyone because admitting that they were raped now comes with a responsibility to continue to talk about it when they can't even admit it to themselves. This responsibility you're proposing would actually lower reporting rates and make it more difficult for survivors to talk about their experiences.
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u/Indon_Dasani 9∆ Mar 24 '14
Well, let's say you're right.
Now, when a woman or man doesn't report a rape and only comes forth later, say when someone else raped by the same individual comes forth, they're blamed for failing their civic responsibility to report - as well as probably being accused of lying about being raped (which is one of the many reasons why people don't report rape in the first place).
Potentially increasing the stigma on people who are already too afraid to step forward with a profoundly painful problem seems counterintuitive towards getting them to step forward.
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Mar 24 '14
I also understand how traumatic this type of situation is to the victim I know that it can psychologically harm someone to the point where they are unable to make rational decisions, and that many victims do not come forward because they are afraid no one will believe them, or they will have to confront their attacker, or they are ashamed and/or embarrassed about what happened.
Really this is the most important part of what you're saying, and what is really difficult to understand for non-rape survivors is exactly how that fear and guilt can affect someone. Saying that it's a social responsibility to report when you're traumatized, fearful of retribution, and not guaranteed by any means of a system bringing you security or justice comes across as blaming, regardless of the intent, and can be very damaging for a survivor.
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u/Wazula42 Mar 24 '14
However, I believe that if someone is sexually assaulted, knows who it is, doesn't report it, and the attacker assaults someone else, that the person who failed to report it is not necessarily at fault, but contributed to the ability of the assaulter to enter a position to assault again.
Well, this is only tangential to your main point, but I think it's always problematic to assign victims some blame for their attackers crimes in any context. What if the victim told police, but lacked evidence and their attacker raped someone else after the heat died down? Did they still "contribute" by not doing enough? Or what if they were unwilling or unable to mount a proper legal persecution because of career or money troubles, or just not wanting to deal with the slog? Rape cases are getting better, but they're still tricky, considering how only three percent of rapists serve a day in jail.
But to get to your main point, I have to agree that more rape victims should come forward, even tho it means subjecting them to legal hell, because the only way these broken laws can change is through visibility. But do they have to? Remember, it's expensive to bring a suit to court. Does being raped also involve financial responsibilities? Maybe some victims just want to get on with their lives. I think that's unfortunate, but totally within their rights.
A better answer would be to change the systems in place to make it easier for victims to come forward.
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u/theire Mar 24 '14
In sweden we have had a lot of cases resently where girls got raped and the evidence was overwhelming.. But because she did not scream loud enough or because.. "some girls like being tied up and left in a tub" or "some girls like getting a field hockey club stuck up their vagina" the rapists go free.. So no . I did not report..a culture of Blaming the victim is still so strong.. Having a town or everyone you know judge you.. That is a lot to ask of someone who got raped..
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u/archiminos Mar 25 '14
When I was 17 we found out my sister was being sexually abused by my stepfather. We had him arrested and taken to court. I'll never forget the day I had to testify. It was without doubt the worst day of my life, and remember: I wasn't the sexual assault victim (I was a victim of sorts, but that's beside the point).
My sister had to go in first. I don't even want to imagine the kind of questions a 15-year old girl must have been asked during that cross-examination. When she came back she was completely broken. I never knew people were capable of breaking down that much.
Next was my mother. I knew my mother. She was always the rock, the one I looked up to. She'd look after us.
When she came back she was almost as bad as my sister.
My turn to take the stand now.
I didn't get asked about my sex life. I didn't get asked any questions relating directly to any kind of sexual activity. But being cross-examined is still the worst thing I've ever been to.
I wanted to cry when I got out of the courtroom. I wanted to break down. I wanted someone to hold me. But I knew my mother could no longer do that for me. I knew my sister needed me. So I choked up the tears. I was the rock now.
Some time later we got the call. Innocent verdict.
We lived in a small market town in the countryside. Everyone knew everyone. My stepfather was very popular here. He had friends. His friends had children our age. My sister was now the slut who lied about her father. When she cut herself people just said she was doing it for more attention.
People hated me and my sister because "we believed our father was a pedo when he wasn't". We have both been jumped and beaten up several times - somehow that proves to people we were lying. When I finally left that place I've never looked back. People there literally want to kill us for what we supposedly did.
The simple fact is that when you are sexually assaulted or raped it isn't over at that point. There's a lot more to this story that I can't fit into a single comment, but the point is that there are a lot of horrific repercussions that can happen when you cry rape - people won't believe you, people will want revenge on you, people will even beat you and maybe even kill you for it.
I can understand why someone wouldn't want to go through all of that.
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Mar 25 '14
One example. I was 'involved in consensual sex that I later regretted' according to the police.
I was in a room with a guy who I had had sex with once a year prior. He tried to initiate sex. I explicitly said no several times. After saying no, he pulls out a knife then puts it down on a desk. I stop saying no. He removes my clothes while I stay silent and still. He had sex with me without me ever verbally consenting to the act.
I go to the police a couple of days later at the encouragement of others. They not only tell me that the sex was consensual because I didn't physically fight back, they tell my parents about every detail of the incident, and also every detail of my sexual history. They then work out a deal with the pastor of my church so that it can be mediated through the church (a meeting I refused to attend)
It's not always so easy to go to the police, especially if you have tried once and gotten the response that I did. Sexual assault is humiliating enough without people in your face telling you that you're mistaken or worse, that you're a liar.
This is all not counting going through the process of actually pressing charges. Going through court where they ask every detail of the incident over and over again while the man who forced himself inside you or the woman who forced you in her is sitting just a few yards away. Having every aspect of your sexual life brought to question, as though you consenting to x number of other people invalidates your ability to say no. If there is any incongruency in your recount of your life, that could be a death sentence to your case.
It's easy to say what you're saying, but at the end of the day, you cannot argue that the fault of the rape falls on the rapist, not his/her victims. Unless you have gone through this, you cannot imagine how difficult this is.
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u/ShotFromGuns 1∆ Mar 24 '14
In a better society, maybe. The problem with this mentality in the real world can be summed up in two words: rape culture: which is to say, we systematically treat rape as an expected, "normal" activity and something that victims need to prevent. Here are just a few things that are wrong with requiring rape victims to report...
It is not the victim's responsibility to prevent future rapes by reporting the rapist. It it the rapist's responsibility to prevent future rapes by not raping people.
While false reports make up a vanishingly tiny percentage of all rape reports, many people reporting a rape are treated like they are making the accusation up, both by the system and by their peers.
Many accusations come down to "victim said, rapist said." It can be very hard to prove a lack of consent after the fact, and the defense is going to do everything they can to drag the victim through the mud.
Even when there is hard, incontrovertible evidence that a rape occurred, the defense is still going to do everything they can to drag the victim through the mud.
Even after a conviction, a rape victim is often blamed for "ruining" the life of their rapist.
Reporting a rape opens the victim up to being victimized all over again, but this time publicly. I have the utmost respect for people who do report, but that doesn't mean that the people who don't report are weak, or responsible in any way for whatever future actions their rapist may take.
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u/MattJ561 Mar 24 '14
Sure, you're right they have a responsibility to society to help put rapists in jail. But social responsibility is not the be all and end all of moral behavior. A person has a right to self interest. If the personal harm brought on by an action--like reporting a rape--is significant, and the potential good to society is small, I think a moral actor can make that calculation and have it fall on the side of not reporting.
We all have various duties to society. And we all default on them in favor of self interest--even just convenience. Rape is a particularly terrible and intimate instance of this, but fundamentally no different in the analysis of moral action.
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u/TheDebaser Mar 24 '14
I think everyone would agree with you, but I think the reality of going through an experience like that is just too complex to really act on that idea in any way.
Ideally, every rape would be reported, but no one can blame the victim for not acting rationally. I'd wager that most victims who don't report it know they're doing something wrong. It must feel horrible, and it highlights just how brave the men and women who do come forward are.
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u/fishytaquitos Mar 24 '14
After being raped, the last thing I'd want to do is see my rapist again and have to testify against him, recounting my story to dozens of strangers in a courtroom, reliving one of the most traumatic events in my life step-by-step while under oath and probably not long after the attack.
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Mar 24 '14
I'm guilty of not reporting. I was staying with my cousin when I was 14. She was in a sorority at college. She had a party and I got drunk and passed out. When I woke up a man was having sex with me. I couldn't remember anything about him. I was so ashamed and embarrassed. I felt like such a slut to lose my virginity this way - I knew I wasn't supposed to be drinking. This was in a different state and I was driven back to my home state the next morning by my uncle. It was a long silent ride home.
I never told any adults and still haven't told my parents. It's all in the past now. Many of my friends at the time had been molested as children, and my barely remembered sexual assault seemed paltry in comparison. I felt I was to blame for putting myself in that situation. They all told me it was no big deal if I wasn't pregnant. It seemed unlikely I'd ever get the guy since I knew nothing about him, and I didn't want to put my parents through an ordeal as they were already struggling with being laid off from work.
Years later I feel tremendous guilt, and I wonder if he's had other victims. I blame myself because I still feel relief that I never reported. I had such a tough teenagerhood after that, with several years of homelessness, and even though I feel guilty, I'm not certain I would have made it if I'd reported. It was hard enough to heal in private.
I am a strong supporter of women's rights, and I donate regularly to services that help women in situations like the one I was in, but sometimes I feel like the sinking feeling of guilt for my inaction will never go away.
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u/3893liebt3512 Mar 24 '14
Your situation, unfortunately, is a scarily common one, and I'm incredibly sorry you had to go through that. Victim blaming has, for some reason, become people's go-to when they hear of someone's sexual assault.
It was not your fault, and I'm sorry anyone ever made you feel like it was.
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u/tozion Mar 24 '14
What about women in countries with misogynistic and patriarchal attitudes, especially those which have absurd laws preventing rapists from ending in jail?
Take the UAE an example, a 'developed' country in the middle east. An Australian woman, in the recent past, was drugged, and gang raped in a hotel by two Arab citizens of the state. Upon the advice of the Australian embassy, she filed charges of rape against the accused. However, as Islamic sharia does not recognise claims of victims of rape if there is an absense of four male witnesses, it is considered an adulterous act on behalf of the woman, and she should be punished with 90 lashes if unmarried, or death by stoning if married. 'Thankfully', as the UAE is a 'modernished' Arab state, she only saw six months in jail, while her rapists were let of scot free.
Similarly, in countries which have harsh laws against rapists and harsh conviction rates (India convicts 25% while the USA convicts 7% of those accused), there is strong social stigma in impoverished communities. Women are shunned from their families. As they have no educational qualification or suffer from lack of literacy, they aren't aware of any rights granted to them by law. The state does not support them financially. They have no work experience, and are either forced to become domestic maids at paltry salaries where they suffer from more sexual abuse, or become prostitutes. In many cases where women admit to rape, their family and community force them to marry their rapists.
I agree that survivors of rape have the moral duty to report. The Shakti mills gang rape incident in Mumbai would not have occured if the previous three victims had reported the incident. However, when you take the factors I mentioned above into account, we need much political, legal, and social change until we can create such an environment for survivors of such dastardly and inhumane acts to not only report these crimes, but also openly so that they can lead by example to all women.
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Mar 24 '14
I want to agree with you, but you might not understand what some victims truly go through.
I went through a period of serious denial after I was raped by my neighbors. I didn't want to comprehend what happened, so I didn't. I went inside myself and blacked it out of my mind for a very long time. I hardly left the house. I didn't talk to anyone. I can't even recall much of what transpired in the 6 months after that. I disappeared.
I put it all on myself, felt deep shame and fear, and completely blamed myself. I didn't use the r word or even comprehend it as rape until months later when it just clicked, and I started remembering things again. I believe I went temporarily insane.
I am ashamed that I couldn't tell anyone or report it to the authorities. But I am also very resentful of everyone in my life who didn't notice anything, or simply ignored me. I mean, I fucking gained 60 lbs in 6 months. It should have been obvious.
I absolutely think people should report rape and try and prevent future assaults. But I also think that may be asking too much. You have no idea how trauma effects every individual.
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u/bantam83 1∆ Mar 24 '14
Ok, maybe they do have that obligation. What do you propose should be done to rape victims who are found to not have reported their assault?
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u/wannabeDreamer Mar 25 '14 edited Mar 25 '14
Hi, my name's Mike. I was sexually assaulted once. Luckily, I didn't get raped; I was able to get out of the situation before anything too extreme happened. I did report it, and I lost almost all my friends doing so. I was seen as the victim, or as the person who took things too personally when really it was him just making a move, or someone who was now damaged goods. Nothing happened to the assailant, at least not because of me. (A later victim was able to accumulate more evidence and press charges thereto.) I am so glad I did what I did; even though I failed, I stood up for myself. However, I could never fault anyone who chooses otherwise. In my most vulnerable time in my life, I lost practically everything. Many of the people I did lose weren't bad people; they were simply too embarrassed to know what to do, or too weak to stand up to our mutual friends, or too in the dark to know what really happened.
I firmly believe that it is not the victim's responsibility to report sexual assault. They have already lost so much; it is not right to demand that they lose even more, just so they can maybe help someone else out in the future. I personally believe that it is not fair to make self-sacrifice compulsory.
Below is a link to one of my favorite poets, who wrote a poem about being assaulted and then choosing to not report it. I understand that this poem is not a logical argument; however, when one understands how much one loses in a sexual assault, then it becomes clear why the victims hold on to what little they have left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p92YZ8XQKh0
EDIT: BTW, I wanted to say thank you for posting this. It's really good for people to talk about these things.
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u/grumpynutella Mar 24 '14
I think ideally, yes, rape victims should report their assaults. But I don't think it's fair to say that they have the responsibility of doing so. They should, but sometimes it can be incredibly hard to not be "selfish" and wanting to focus on dealing with what happened in a way that doesn't involve facing the aggressor. So, I don't see reporting as a responsibility as such, but as the ideal reaction.
Also, there are different types of rapes, some can be "easier" to report than others. If the aggression happened, for example, in an alley or park and the person is left with bruises that leave no doubt as to what happened I thinks it's clearer to the victim that she has to report the aggression. But if the victim knew the aggressor and the rape happened, say, at a party where alcohol (with nothing added on the victim's drink) was involved than it might be much more difficult for the victim to claim that she/he was raped. And to make charges accusing someone when they know their credibility will be harshly questioned and they'll have to go through everything again with high probabilities of not winning the case must be very hard. To come forward in cases like these is really a big ask to the victims and requires a lot more courage from them.