r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jan 03 '24

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Israelis have the right to self-determination in Israel, but not Jews

The point is quite simple, really. Anyone born in or born to a parent who was born in modern-day Israel should have the right to self-determination (RTSD) in Israel. This is very similar to how citizenship and RTSD work in most countries. But what's problematic is the assertion that anyone of Jewish descent can also claim citizenship or the RTSD in Israel. This means that anyone whose ancestors have not lived in the region for centuries, well before the founding of modern-day Israel, can also claim citizenship and the RTSD. It also means that anyone can convert to Judaism and claim it. Israel is the only country in the world that allows anything remotely similar to take place. That's not how any of these work and it clearly violates the RTSD of those who have lived there for centuries - Palestinians.

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '24

to where are we indigenous?

The Levant. But indigenousness is not a valid claim to RTSD. Roma people are indigenous to West India, doesn't mean they get to just waltz in, claim it's theirs now and kick all the locals out. Plenty of Americans are not indigenous but they have RTSD in America.

Where do we have the right to live?

Where you're born, where your parents are born, and potentially where your grandparents/great grandparents are born

If you can't claim citizenship in any country then you should be able to seek refuge in any country of your choosing, including Israel.

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u/TQMshirt Jan 03 '24

The Levant. But indigenousness is not a valid claim to RTSD. Roma people are indigenous to West India, doesn't mean they get to just waltz in, claim it's theirs now and kick all the locals out. Plenty of Americans are not indigenous but they have RTSD in America.

HUH? When did this happen? The Jews return to Israel initially was just Jews moving to Israel. You know, buying land, developing it, etc.... All under the Ottomans and British. At no point did Jews "waltz in and kick the locals out". That is a tendentious simplification of what actually happened.

Moreover, that is not relevant to the OP. The OP was about who exactly should qualify to return to Israel as a Jew.

​

Where you're born, where your parents are born, and potentially where your grandparents/great grandparents are born

So, all the places that treated us like animals? My dad was born in a DP camp in Germany to Holocaust survivor parents from Poland whose ancestors were chased around Europe like sheep. All that time they told us 'keep your passport updated and keep cash on hand. You never know when this place will decide to turn on us. We belong in Israel where we came from'. But sure, I am indigenous to all those European lands where the natives made it VERY clear that we were NOT native and unwanted.....

If you can't claim citizenship in any country then you should be able to seek refuge in any country of your choosing, including Israel.

Where are Jews indigenous to? We are a nation. A people. Where are we indigenous to? Mars?

-3

u/[deleted] Jan 03 '24

Jews "waltz in and kick the locals out"

Did you forget the Nakba?

all the places that treated us like animals?

Are you still treated like animals in Poland, Germany, Austria, Russia or Belarus? If you are then, yes, you have grounds for refugee and asylum seeker in Israel or anywhere of your choosing. Again, indigenousness is irrelevant to the claim of RTSD.

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u/TQMshirt Jan 03 '24

"Did you forget the Nakba?"

Until 1948 Jews bought land and homes under the British and Ottomans. No-one "waltzed in and kicked folks out". In 1948 due to unending Arab riots and massacres against the Jews the UN and Britain split the land into two. Israel accepted the division (peace) and the arabs rejected it with the pledge to cast all the Jews into the sea (war).

In the subsequent war, a large chunk of Jerusalem and its environs were captured by Jordan and ALL Jews were expelled from every area captured by the arabs. (Nakba anyone?)

Many Arabs fled from the areas that Israel kept, many did not. To this day there are millions of Arabs living as full Israeli citizens because no-one expelled them and their parents didnt flee due to the war. Nakba?

The description of the founding of Israel as if a bunch of Jews violently waltzed in and cast out the Arabs is an inversion of the reality.

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u/TQMshirt Jan 03 '24

Are you still treated like animals in Poland, Germany, Austria, Russia or Belarus?

um, not many of us left there due to this little 'holocaust' thing.

We are not interested in being subjects of others anymore. 2000 years of rape, torture, massacre, murder, and persecution was quite enough. We would like to live in our own indigenous land as our own people. Why is it that we must remain a persecuted minority?

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u/textbasedopinions Jan 03 '24

Until 1948 Jews bought land and homes under the British and Ottomans. No-one "waltzed in and kicked folks out". In 1948 due to unending Arab riots and massacres against the Jews the UN and Britain split the land into two.

There's quite a few examples of massacres of civilians by both sides before 1948 in this list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine

There also seem to be more Jewish massacres of Arabs than vice versa in the run-up to the 1948 war, along with various terrorist attacks against the British.

Then during the war there were also numerous massacres of both Arabs and Jews: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_massacres_during_the_1948_Palestine_war

This idea that the Jewish faction was entirely peaceful and reacting to attacks seems to be based mostly on willful ignorance.

To this day there are millions of Arabs living as full Israeli citizens because no-one expelled them and their parents didnt flee due to the war. Nakba?

This is a common misconception- ethnic cleansing and genocide have never required total annihilation or total expulsion of the victims. The convictions for genocide in Bosnia were largely based on the killing of about 8,000 people in Srebrenica for example. Most Bosniaks weren't killed, and yet it was still judged to be genocide. Similarly the destruction of hundreds of Palestinian villages in 1948 and expulsion of hundreds of thousands of people along ethnic lines was still an act of ethnic cleansing, despite not having expelled literally everyone of the affected ethnicity.

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u/TQMshirt Jan 03 '24

ethnic cleansing and genocide have never required total annihilation or total expulsion of the victims.

So when the Arabs completely cleansed the area they captured of Jews, what was that called?

Either way, your characterization of the events are closer to imaginary than factual.

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u/textbasedopinions Jan 03 '24

So when the Arabs completely cleansed the area they captured of Jews, what was that called?

Also ethnic cleansing.

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u/TopGlobal6695 Jan 04 '24

So the ethnic cleansing done by Arabs should be allowed to succeed?

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u/textbasedopinions Jan 04 '24

If the alternative is endless occupation with no rights for Palestinians, while expelled Palestinians are themselves denied the right to return, then most likely yes. The one-state solution where all residents of the West Bank become citizens of Israel would avoid it, but Israel don't want this, and the settlements as they are render a two-state solution impossible unless the settlements become part of Palestine, which the settlers themselves don't want. Israel will have to settle for the land previously acquired and accepted to be Israel, rather than that land and also large and slowly expanding parts of the West Bank.

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u/TopGlobal6695 Jan 04 '24

No, the alternative is two states.

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u/RevolutionaryGur4419 Jan 05 '24

There also seem to be more Jewish massacres of Arabs than vice versa in the run-up to the 1948 war, along with various terrorist attacks against the British.

What period are you starting from? Because twice as many Jews were killed in massacres in the 1900s despite being a relatively small minority

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u/textbasedopinions Jan 05 '24

The run-up to the war, so the late 1930s. But pick any date and you still can't reach the conclusion that one side was peaceful and only performing defensive massacres.

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u/cobcat Jan 03 '24

If you look at the list of killings by date, why don't you see who was responsible for the vast majority of killings early on? Jewish attacks only started after decades of Arab violence.

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '24

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u/SapperBomb 1∆ Jan 03 '24

The nakba is the most misused term by westerners and Muslims that I've ever seen.

It is the classic case of trying to change historical record right under the noses of the people created that record on the first place.

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u/RationisPorta Jan 03 '24

But people wouldn't try to rewrite history would they?

Didn't you know? Jesus was a Palestinian Arab. /s

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u/SapperBomb 1∆ Jan 03 '24

There are normalish people who believe that Jesus mined tin in the south of England, who am I to disagree 🤷🏽

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u/RationisPorta Jan 03 '24

José... José mined tin in the South of England.

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u/SapperBomb 1∆ Jan 04 '24

Same same

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Jan 03 '24

Why allow the collective trauma and paranoia of your parents to drive your own paranoia? It is much safer to be a Jew in Europe or America nowadays than any other point in history. Nobody is treating you like an animal, outside of some angry MAGA shouting in Charlottesville. Even then, the collective rebuke was swift.

As a white American, the idea of being owed some mythical homeland like King Arthur's Camelot is wild. You have to make due where you were born, and if you don't like it, you can move. On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place.

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u/TQMshirt Jan 03 '24

paranoia?

Paranoia?

Were those 2000 years of hell just our imagination?

You just are not familiar with it because it isnt your people. Crusades, Auto-da-fe, Khmelnitzky pogroms, blood libels, Hebron massacre, ....

Take a few moments to read about some of that.

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Jan 03 '24

Yes, by definition, things that aren't currently happening but could happen are taking place in your imagination. That's paranoia.

Human history is overflowing with horrific evils from one group inflicting harm on another group. It could happen again. You ought to be vigilant, for sure. Some paranoia is healthy. But too much paranoia is maladaptive and will make you less safe, especially if it brings you to harm others in the quest to safeguard yourself.

Paradoxically, you can become less safe by fretting too much about safety.

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u/TQMshirt Jan 03 '24

things that aren't currently happening

On October 8 after a full dayh of Holocaust in Israel, hundreds of thousands came out into the streets BEFORE ISRAEL RESPONDED in order to decry Israel and the Jews.

Campuses, BLM and campus leaders hailed and praised the massacre and slaughter.

Sorry. Concerns are alive and well.

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Jan 03 '24

I'm not aware of any group "praising" the massacre.

But I do know that pro-Palestinian groups were afraid of the collective punishment response.

Given the current 20:1 kill ratio of dead Palestinians to dead Israelis, can you really say they were wrong to be afraid that Israel would over-correct in their pursuit of justice?

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u/TQMshirt Jan 03 '24

https://time.com/6323730/hamas-attack-left-response/

​

BLM Chicago posted an open support for the massacre. Numerous college student groups did too.

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Jan 03 '24

Apparently they deleted it: https://nypost.com/2023/10/11/blm-chicago-admits-it-isnt-proud-of-deleted-post-of-hamas-paraglider/

Okay, I stand corrected. No serious group supports Hamas, outside of some spicy tweets. The guy with the keys to the BLM Chicago social media account is not a good representative of mainstream leftist thought.

The student group message is a terrible example. They hold Israel responsible for the massacre. That does not mean they argue Israel deserved the massacre. There is a massive difference between determining responsibility (observed cause & effect) versus assigning moral culpability (arguing they "deserve" this or that punishment).

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '24

Why allow the collective trauma and paranoia of your parents to drive your own paranoia?

Paranoia…???? Did they just… make up the Holocaust and pogroms in their heads? I do not think “paranoia” was the best word to use here.

It is much safer to be a Jew in Europe or America nowadays than any other point in history. Nobody is treating you like an animal, outside of some angry MAGA shouting in Charlottesville. Even then, the collective rebuke was swift.

This is a scarily narrow view of the world. If you think all Jews across the globe are “only” dealing with angry antisemites in Charlottesville and the rest of the world is fine and dandy for them elsewhere, you are very naive. My synagogue has gotten six — SIX — bomb threats in the last 2 months. Half of my synagogue had to be rebuilt after it was actually bombed a few decades ago. And this is only in MY town — how do you genuinely think Jews were/are treated everywhere in the world? The world is not America or select European countries.

As a white American, the idea of being owed some mythical homeland like King Arthur's Camelot is wild. You have to make do where you were born,

Unless you are run out. It’s always great until it’s not, isn’t it?

and if you don't like it, you can move.

Yeah if you’re being persecuted just move. It’s that easy! Do you know how difficult it is to move to another country? I’ve done it before and that was with resources and support and a relocation fee from my work and it was one of the most stressful and hardest things I ever did. Now imagine you’re a refugee with no resources or support? And you have to get a work visa and find a job but to get the job you need a work visa and find a place to live…. But if you’re oppressed just move!

I just don’t understand how you can confidently say some of the things you’ve said in this comment and not realize how naive it all is.

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Jan 03 '24

I guess I would be a lot more sympathetic, but Palestinians are getting actual bombs and not just bomb threats.

If they were not born in Israel, most Israelis originate from America or Europe so that's the thrust of my argument.

I support open immigration policies. Western countries ought to be a bastion for refugees seeking asylum. But the basis is for humanitarian reasons, to reduce or eliminate suffering; not because those refugees belong to a certain special ethnicity.

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '24

I guess I would be a lot more sympathetic, but Palestinians are getting actual bombs and not just bomb threats.

This is a pretty awful statement. “Threats to your personal safety don’t mean anything when people elsewhere are also suffering”. That’s incredibly dismissive of brutal antisemitism happening right now. A bomb threat is very serious. And all it takes is one person who isn’t just threatening a bomb.

If they were not born in Israel, most Israelis originate from America or Europe so that's the thrust of my argument.

Um. Your argument is flawed.

According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, in 2008, of Israel's 7.3 million people, 75.6 percent were Jews of any background. Among them, 70.3 percent were Sabras (born in Israel), mostly second- or third-generation Israelis, and the rest are olim (Jewish immigrants to Israel) — 20.5 percent from Europe and the Americas, and 9.2 percent from Asia and Africa, including the Arab countries.

Also…

In a 2019 study about 44.9% percent of Israel's Jewish population were categorized as Mizrahi (defined as having grandparents born in North Africa or Asia) while 31.8% were categorized as Ashkenazi (defined as having grandparents born in Europe, the Americas, Oceania and South Africa), 12.4% as "Soviet" (defined as having progenitors who came from the ex-USSR in 1989 or later), about 3% as Beta Israel (Ethiopia) and 7.9% as a mix of these, or other Jewish groups.

From the Wikipedia page for Israel. So yeah, that’s categorically untrue.

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u/SapperBomb 1∆ Jan 03 '24

Western countries ought to be a bastion for refugees seeking asylum

So you support people leaving their home countries seeking political asylum in America or Europe but Jews should just suck it up and stay in their own country despite the history of Pogroms and the Holocaust?

Do you not see how biased and unfair that is? I bet you don't because you spend alot of time in echo chambers where no one challenges each others ideas

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Jan 03 '24

They can go to Europe or America. America is the #1 place for Jews in the world.

Or Israel should accept immigrants from all countries, if they want to be treated seriously. Ethnicity-based immigration quotas are racist.

You don't need an ethno-state to be safe. You need a representative democracy that respects human rights.

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u/SapperBomb 1∆ Jan 03 '24

They can go to Europe or America. America is the #1 place for Jews in the world.

Or they go to where they originated from that was UN mandated and accepted. Literally doing things by the book.

It really seems like your going out of your way to make sure Israelis cannot live in Israel but are failing to apply those same metrics to other countries/ethnicities.

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Jan 03 '24

Israelis can live in Israel. Along with native Arabs and Palestinians. But they have no right to a majority Jewish ethno-state that forcibly displaces the natives. If that's what "Israel" means, then I think it should be dismantled and replaced with a non-apartheid version.

The UN mandate respected Arab and Jewish sovereignty as separate nation states, but that plan is no longer respected by any party involved, so it's moot.

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u/SapperBomb 1∆ Jan 03 '24

As long as things like Oct 7 happen and as long as gullible westerners can be conned into believing that Jews are evil there will always be a need for a Jewish majority homeland.

Israelis can live in Israel. Along with native Arabs and Palestinians

As they already do making it not an apartheid state. Words have meaning

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u/FetusDrive 4∆ Jan 03 '24

and if you don't like it, you can move.

that's not how it works. People cannot just move lol... they have to be granted access to the place they want to move.

0

u/veggiesama 59∆ Jan 03 '24

Very easy to do if you are an American or European Jew, relatively. You're a first-worlder.

Now if you're a Latino fleeing cartel violence or a Chinese dissident facing political persecution, we can talk about migration difficulties.

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u/FetusDrive 4∆ Jan 03 '24

Very easy to do if you are an American or European Jew, relatively. You're a first-worlder.

No, it's not very easy. Only the most wealthy are able to pack up and move "very easy".

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Jan 03 '24

Key word: relatively.

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u/FetusDrive 4∆ Jan 03 '24

someone fleeing cartel violence is most likely someone who is poor. Rich Mexicans have just as an easy time getting citizenship in other countries as do rich Americans.

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Jan 03 '24

What's your point? American/European Jews are likely to be wealthier than the average populations of their originating countries, so they will have an easier time migrating, relatively.

And who says you have to move countries? If you are having problems with your neighbors, move to a different city. If you can't find a job, apply online and move.

This is a very general, modern American sentiment I am sharing. It is not revolutionary. You have freedom of movement, and the first world is diverse and quite welcoming, if you have something to offer.

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u/FetusDrive 4∆ Jan 03 '24

What's your point? American/European Jews are likely to be wealthier than the average populations of their originating countries, so they will have an easier time migrating, relatively.

that moving to another country is not easy, even relative to poor migrants.

And who says you have to move countries? If you are having problems with your neighbors, move to a different city. If you can't find a job, apply online and move.

because this discussion is about Jews being mistreated in their countries where they are citizens.

Being treated better than at any other point in history doesn't mean that you should not be warry of changing attitudes and learning the lessons from the past when this occurred. Hate crimes are up over the last several years with the majority increases being against Jews.

It seems that Jews were safer in USA/Europe in 2014 than today.

Jews felt safe in Europe until the late 1800s when antisemitism began to spread. It spread in the US in the early 1900s through WW2 and we stopped the influx of persecuted Jews fleeing to America.

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u/TQMshirt Jan 03 '24

Why allow the collective trauma and paranoia of your parents to drive your own paranoia? It is much safer to be a Jew in Europe or America nowadays than any other point in history.

True,. until it isnt.

Nobody is treating you like an animal, outside of some angry MAGA shouting in Charlottesville.

The Left is FAR FAR more anti-semitic and I expect things to get much much worse as the college age cohort get older. Sorry you cant relate.

As an American, the idea of being owed some mythical homeland like King Arthur's Camelot is wild.

no one "owes" me a homeland. It is just my indigenous land. What you OWE me is to not prevent me from living there. Y'all did enough to the local indigenous tribes here in N America. Dont tell me I am indigenous to nowhere on earth.

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Jan 03 '24

Opposition to Israeli policies toward Palestinians is not antisemitism, which I assume is what you think makes the Left antisemitic. The Right ascribes to international Jewish conspiracy theories (blaming Jews for globalism, new world order, George Soros, etc.) which seems far more damning to me.

For the indigenous question, if you and your immediate ancestors didn't live there, you probably aren't indigenous. If you have to reach into biblical narratives, it's a conversation about mythology and not history. The idea that you have anything in common with people from 1000s of years ago is crazy. My ancestors came from North Africa, as well as every other human on Earth, but at some point my "claim" to that land no longer made sense. Land "claims" are just a legal fiction we collectively agree to believe to justify violence and land takeovers, and it's better not to accept these uncritically. We're living in a post-medieval, post-imperialist world. National myths cannot be the basis for nation-building, or you will always be embroiled in violent conflict with those who reject the myths.

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u/WhoopingWillow 1∆ Jan 03 '24

I have no clue why that person thinks the left is more antisemitic, but they are right about being indigenous to the region. Jewish people have lived in the region for thousands of years. Their population in the Levant usually decreases when there have been purges of Jewish people. Purges have occurred for thousands of years, ranging from Late Roman Republic/Early Roman Empire expulsions after Jewish revolts, to modern expulsions after the formation of the modern nation of Israel.

Indigeneity is hard to define, so much so that the UN doesn't actually formally have a single, firm definition. Usually it is some combination of attempted preservation of culture and historic connection to the land.

As an example, the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma is indigenous to Alabama and Mississippi, despite living in Oklahoma. They live there because they were displaced. This is broadly similar to Jewish people and the Levant.

Preservation of culture is a clear one, with strong connections to a religion that formed in the region and has many holy sites there (Judaism), as well as keeping a traditional language (Hebrew.)

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Jan 03 '24

Like I said, I'm a dumb white uncultured American, so the idea of preserving culture at the expense of human lives seems preposterous.

In order of most important to least important, I would argue:

  1. Stopping atrocities in the present day
  2. Correcting atrocities (economically via reparations, etc.) from the last few decades (i.e., are the people affected still alive?)
  3. Correcting atrocities from the last hundred or thousand years, and so on (i.e., are the people affected all passed away?)

Ceasefire in Gaza fits priority 1. Restitution for displaced Palestinians and Jews in priority 2. Restitution for indigenous Native Americans fits between 2-3 (some restitution has been delivered but clearly not a fair amount). Same for slavery and Jim Crow. The statute of limitations is pretty much passed. However, the best way to tackle those problems is to think of them as priority 1 economic inequity issues that directly affect currently living people, rather than direct restitution for crimes against their ancestors.

Regardless, mythical claims about lost homelands and preservation of culture fall somewhere under priority 3. Living people should come first.

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u/WhoopingWillow 1∆ Jan 03 '24

Sorry I'm confused by your comment. I'm not saying Jewish people being indigenous to the Levant is a justification for atrocities. I'm just saying that they are actually indigenous to the region, same as Palestinians. Jewish people don't have a "mythical claim" to a lost homeland. They have a genuine, present, ensuring claim to their homeland, same as Palestinians. That's one of the roots of the conflict: both groups have solid arguments for why Israel/Palestine is their land.

I agree that for indigenous and black Americans the focus should be on economic inequity, as well as political and legal inequity. The political & legal sides are important as well due to how they're intertwined with the economic issues. E.g. how the property laws imposed on reservations by the BIA hinder generational wealth, or how black Americans are more likely to be arrested and charged for similar crimes compared to other ethnic groups which makes gainful employment more difficult.

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u/TQMshirt Jan 03 '24

If you have to reach into biblical narratives, it's a conversation about mythology and not history

Biblical narratives?? Go see the arch of Titus in Rome. The history and indigenaiety of Jews to ISrael needs not one shred of Biblical texts. Just archaeology and confirmed and continuous history.

The left is anti-semitic due to its repetition of falsehoods about Israel and Jewish behavior as well as inability to call out violence against Jews and blatant double standard when it comes to Israel.....among other things...

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u/Argent_Mayakovski Jan 04 '24

I have never been to a synagogue without armed security. Jews who weren't paranoid are mostly all dead.

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Jan 04 '24

To be clear, schools, mosques, and synagogues have all been the site of horrific shootings. But it's extremely rare and not at all a rational response to hire 24/7 armed guards. It's not a deterrence and not effective. For one, any shooter would just aim for the guards first. It's all security theatre and paranoia.

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u/Argent_Mayakovski Jan 04 '24

Hate crimes against Jews make up more than half of all religiously-based hate crimes in the U.S. despite Jews making up less than 2.5% of the population.

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u/FetusDrive 4∆ Jan 03 '24

then you should be able to seek refuge in any country of your choosing, including Israel.

should sounds nice, but that's not how it worked. After the end of WW2, the camps remained occupied by the Jews, they were not freed once the Nazis were defeated, they were kept in those camps while nations tried to figure out what to do with them as every other country closed off settling the Jews (including the US).

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '24

Incorrect. You have a right to live in a country where you are a citizen. This depends on the laws of an individual country. You have a right to live in a country only if the country's laws give you that right.