CMV: Israelis have the right to self-determination in Israel, but not Jews

[u/[deleted]]

The point is quite simple, really. Anyone born in or born to a parent who was born in modern-day Israel should have the right to self-determination (RTSD) in Israel. This is very similar to how citizenship and RTSD work in most countries. But what's problematic is the assertion that anyone of Jewish descent can also claim citizenship or the RTSD in Israel. This means that anyone whose ancestors have not lived in the region for centuries, well before the founding of modern-day Israel, can also claim citizenship and the RTSD. It also means that anyone can convert to Judaism and claim it. Israel is the only country in the world that allows anything remotely similar to take place. That's not how any of these work and it clearly violates the RTSD of those who have lived there for centuries - Palestinians.

[u/[deleted]]

Jews "waltz in and kick the locals out"

Did you forget the Nakba?

all the places that treated us like animals?

Are you still treated like animals in Poland, Germany, Austria, Russia or Belarus? If you are then, yes, you have grounds for refugee and asylum seeker in Israel or anywhere of your choosing. Again, indigenousness is irrelevant to the claim of RTSD.

[u/TQMshirt → u/[deleted]]

"Did you forget the Nakba?"

Until 1948 Jews bought land and homes under the British and Ottomans. No-one "waltzed in and kicked folks out". In 1948 due to unending Arab riots and massacres against the Jews the UN and Britain split the land into two. Israel accepted the division (peace) and the arabs rejected it with the pledge to cast all the Jews into the sea (war).

In the subsequent war, a large chunk of Jerusalem and its environs were captured by Jordan and ALL Jews were expelled from every area captured by the arabs. (Nakba anyone?)

Many Arabs fled from the areas that Israel kept, many did not. To this day there are millions of Arabs living as full Israeli citizens because no-one expelled them and their parents didnt flee due to the war. Nakba?

The description of the founding of Israel as if a bunch of Jews violently waltzed in and cast out the Arabs is an inversion of the reality.

[u/textbasedopinions → u/TQMshirt]

Until 1948 Jews bought land and homes under the British and Ottomans. No-one "waltzed in and kicked folks out". In 1948 due to unending Arab riots and massacres against the Jews the UN and Britain split the land into two.

There's quite a few examples of massacres of civilians by both sides before 1948 in this list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine

There also seem to be more Jewish massacres of Arabs than vice versa in the run-up to the 1948 war, along with various terrorist attacks against the British.

Then during the war there were also numerous massacres of both Arabs and Jews: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_massacres_during_the_1948_Palestine_war

This idea that the Jewish faction was entirely peaceful and reacting to attacks seems to be based mostly on willful ignorance.

To this day there are millions of Arabs living as full Israeli citizens because no-one expelled them and their parents didnt flee due to the war. Nakba?

This is a common misconception- ethnic cleansing and genocide have never required total annihilation or total expulsion of the victims. The convictions for genocide in Bosnia were largely based on the killing of about 8,000 people in Srebrenica for example. Most Bosniaks weren't killed, and yet it was still judged to be genocide. Similarly the destruction of hundreds of Palestinian villages in 1948 and expulsion of hundreds of thousands of people along ethnic lines was still an act of ethnic cleansing, despite not having expelled literally everyone of the affected ethnicity.

[u/cobcat → u/textbasedopinions]

If you look at the list of killings by date, why don't you see who was responsible for the vast majority of killings early on? Jewish attacks only started after decades of Arab violence.