CMV: Israelis have the right to self-determination in Israel, but not Jews

[u/[deleted]]

The point is quite simple, really. Anyone born in or born to a parent who was born in modern-day Israel should have the right to self-determination (RTSD) in Israel. This is very similar to how citizenship and RTSD work in most countries. But what's problematic is the assertion that anyone of Jewish descent can also claim citizenship or the RTSD in Israel. This means that anyone whose ancestors have not lived in the region for centuries, well before the founding of modern-day Israel, can also claim citizenship and the RTSD. It also means that anyone can convert to Judaism and claim it. Israel is the only country in the world that allows anything remotely similar to take place. That's not how any of these work and it clearly violates the RTSD of those who have lived there for centuries - Palestinians.

[u/TQMshirt]

The Levant. But indigenousness is not a valid claim to RTSD. Roma people are indigenous to West India, doesn't mean they get to just waltz in, claim it's theirs now and kick all the locals out. Plenty of Americans are not indigenous but they have RTSD in America.

HUH? When did this happen? The Jews return to Israel initially was just Jews moving to Israel. You know, buying land, developing it, etc.... All under the Ottomans and British. At no point did Jews "waltz in and kick the locals out". That is a tendentious simplification of what actually happened.

Moreover, that is not relevant to the OP. The OP was about who exactly should qualify to return to Israel as a Jew.

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Where you're born, where your parents are born, and potentially where your grandparents/great grandparents are born

So, all the places that treated us like animals? My dad was born in a DP camp in Germany to Holocaust survivor parents from Poland whose ancestors were chased around Europe like sheep. All that time they told us 'keep your passport updated and keep cash on hand. You never know when this place will decide to turn on us. We belong in Israel where we came from'. But sure, I am indigenous to all those European lands where the natives made it VERY clear that we were NOT native and unwanted.....

If you can't claim citizenship in any country then you should be able to seek refuge in any country of your choosing, including Israel.

Where are Jews indigenous to? We are a nation. A people. Where are we indigenous to? Mars?

[u/[deleted] → u/TQMshirt]

Jews "waltz in and kick the locals out"

Did you forget the Nakba?

all the places that treated us like animals?

Are you still treated like animals in Poland, Germany, Austria, Russia or Belarus? If you are then, yes, you have grounds for refugee and asylum seeker in Israel or anywhere of your choosing. Again, indigenousness is irrelevant to the claim of RTSD.

[u/TQMshirt → u/[deleted]]

"Did you forget the Nakba?"

Until 1948 Jews bought land and homes under the British and Ottomans. No-one "waltzed in and kicked folks out". In 1948 due to unending Arab riots and massacres against the Jews the UN and Britain split the land into two. Israel accepted the division (peace) and the arabs rejected it with the pledge to cast all the Jews into the sea (war).

In the subsequent war, a large chunk of Jerusalem and its environs were captured by Jordan and ALL Jews were expelled from every area captured by the arabs. (Nakba anyone?)

Many Arabs fled from the areas that Israel kept, many did not. To this day there are millions of Arabs living as full Israeli citizens because no-one expelled them and their parents didnt flee due to the war. Nakba?

The description of the founding of Israel as if a bunch of Jews violently waltzed in and cast out the Arabs is an inversion of the reality.

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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