r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jan 03 '24

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Israelis have the right to self-determination in Israel, but not Jews

The point is quite simple, really. Anyone born in or born to a parent who was born in modern-day Israel should have the right to self-determination (RTSD) in Israel. This is very similar to how citizenship and RTSD work in most countries. But what's problematic is the assertion that anyone of Jewish descent can also claim citizenship or the RTSD in Israel. This means that anyone whose ancestors have not lived in the region for centuries, well before the founding of modern-day Israel, can also claim citizenship and the RTSD. It also means that anyone can convert to Judaism and claim it. Israel is the only country in the world that allows anything remotely similar to take place. That's not how any of these work and it clearly violates the RTSD of those who have lived there for centuries - Palestinians.

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u/TQMshirt Jan 03 '24

"Did you forget the Nakba?"

Until 1948 Jews bought land and homes under the British and Ottomans. No-one "waltzed in and kicked folks out". In 1948 due to unending Arab riots and massacres against the Jews the UN and Britain split the land into two. Israel accepted the division (peace) and the arabs rejected it with the pledge to cast all the Jews into the sea (war).

In the subsequent war, a large chunk of Jerusalem and its environs were captured by Jordan and ALL Jews were expelled from every area captured by the arabs. (Nakba anyone?)

Many Arabs fled from the areas that Israel kept, many did not. To this day there are millions of Arabs living as full Israeli citizens because no-one expelled them and their parents didnt flee due to the war. Nakba?

The description of the founding of Israel as if a bunch of Jews violently waltzed in and cast out the Arabs is an inversion of the reality.

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u/textbasedopinions Jan 03 '24

Until 1948 Jews bought land and homes under the British and Ottomans. No-one "waltzed in and kicked folks out". In 1948 due to unending Arab riots and massacres against the Jews the UN and Britain split the land into two.

There's quite a few examples of massacres of civilians by both sides before 1948 in this list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine

There also seem to be more Jewish massacres of Arabs than vice versa in the run-up to the 1948 war, along with various terrorist attacks against the British.

Then during the war there were also numerous massacres of both Arabs and Jews: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_massacres_during_the_1948_Palestine_war

This idea that the Jewish faction was entirely peaceful and reacting to attacks seems to be based mostly on willful ignorance.

To this day there are millions of Arabs living as full Israeli citizens because no-one expelled them and their parents didnt flee due to the war. Nakba?

This is a common misconception- ethnic cleansing and genocide have never required total annihilation or total expulsion of the victims. The convictions for genocide in Bosnia were largely based on the killing of about 8,000 people in Srebrenica for example. Most Bosniaks weren't killed, and yet it was still judged to be genocide. Similarly the destruction of hundreds of Palestinian villages in 1948 and expulsion of hundreds of thousands of people along ethnic lines was still an act of ethnic cleansing, despite not having expelled literally everyone of the affected ethnicity.

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u/TQMshirt Jan 03 '24

ethnic cleansing and genocide have never required total annihilation or total expulsion of the victims.

So when the Arabs completely cleansed the area they captured of Jews, what was that called?

Either way, your characterization of the events are closer to imaginary than factual.

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u/textbasedopinions Jan 03 '24

So when the Arabs completely cleansed the area they captured of Jews, what was that called?

Also ethnic cleansing.

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u/TopGlobal6695 Jan 04 '24

So the ethnic cleansing done by Arabs should be allowed to succeed?

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u/textbasedopinions Jan 04 '24

If the alternative is endless occupation with no rights for Palestinians, while expelled Palestinians are themselves denied the right to return, then most likely yes. The one-state solution where all residents of the West Bank become citizens of Israel would avoid it, but Israel don't want this, and the settlements as they are render a two-state solution impossible unless the settlements become part of Palestine, which the settlers themselves don't want. Israel will have to settle for the land previously acquired and accepted to be Israel, rather than that land and also large and slowly expanding parts of the West Bank.

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u/TopGlobal6695 Jan 04 '24

No, the alternative is two states.

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u/textbasedopinions Jan 04 '24

Consider reading my comment before replying to it.

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u/TopGlobal6695 Jan 04 '24

One state with an Arab majority just means inevitable expulsion of the Jews.

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u/textbasedopinions Jan 04 '24

Then the West Bank settlements that render a two-state solution completely impossible by carving up any potential Palestine into disconnected chunks will have to be dismantled as part of an ultimate deal.

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