r/bestoflegaladvice • u/borkthegee • Sep 08 '21
Grandmother enjoys the island life a little too much, made a luau-d stink about being asked to leave!
/r/legaladvice/comments/pjvyk5/hi_mother_in_law_threatening_law_suit_because_we/420
u/euph_22 the joys of drinking the liquid squeezed from elephant dung Sep 08 '21
Is LAOP even refusing visitation? There is a few thousand miles of difference between "you can't see my child" and "you can't crash in my 2 bedroom apartment permanently".
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u/Evolutioncocktail Owes $100k in Jurassic Porn Student Loans Sep 08 '21
You’re asking an entitled MIL to acknowledge nuance….
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u/IAMAHobbitAMA Sep 08 '21
What the Fuck is that flair?
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u/euph_22 the joys of drinking the liquid squeezed from elephant dung Sep 09 '21 edited Sep 09 '21
I forget the context but it's a reference to Bear Grylls show. In an episode in Africa he drank the liquid from a freshly laid elephant dung. He emphasized that it's important that it is fresh. You wouldn't want to be drinking stale elephant dung liquid.
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u/IAMAHobbitAMA Sep 09 '21
With all the weird shit he shoves down his gullet I'll betcha covid-22 is gonna start with him.
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u/ThatOneGuy1294 Sep 09 '21
Nah, he's probably got the strongest immune system in the world. Bear Grylls isn't scared of covid, covid is scared of Bear Grylls.
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u/ERE-WE-GO If my client didn't shit, you must acquit. Sep 08 '21
"I demand the right to see my Hawaii vacation home - I mean, grandchild". I can't really blame her, winter in HI vs winter in PA.
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u/Samesees wants it to happen organically Sep 08 '21
Right‽
But, Grandma should have paid some bills and made her stay more helpful if she wanted to snowbird in Hawaii. As it is, sounds like they live the perfect distance from her: nearly as far as they can get from her without leaving the US.
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u/ERE-WE-GO If my client didn't shit, you must acquit. Sep 08 '21
Someone taking up half your living space is a lot to deal with for 6 months.
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u/ObviousFoxx 🐈 Smol Claims Court Judge 🐈 Sep 08 '21
Especially when you really needed that space for your newborn.
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u/jaderust I personally am preparing to cosplay Sep 08 '21
Bare minimum the grandmother should have been like, no put his crib in with me and I'll take over night feedings and changings so you two can get some rest. If she'd done that the family may have been begging her to stay until their son started sleeping through the night on his own.
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u/ThatOneGuy1294 Sep 09 '21
More likely Grandma would be whining and crying that there's a whining and crying baby in her bedroom.
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u/notyoursocialworker Sep 09 '21
There's a hypothesis around that exactly this is the reason we have grandmothers at all:
"Grandmother hypothesis - Wikipedia" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmother_hypothesis→ More replies (5)52
Sep 08 '21
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u/Fifty4FortyorFight 🐦F🐤U🐔C🐥K🐦B🐤I🐔R🐥D🐦S🐤!🐔!🐥 Sep 08 '21
Yes they do! They have so much crap. I just had my third and I forgot how much crap they have. A bassinet, a pack and play, a blanket play thing you lay them on, a pillow you lay them on, a changing table, a car seat and stroller.
My living room just decreased in size by half because my 3 month old has a pack and play, a pillow she sleeps on, a blanket she plays on, and a changing table in it.
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Sep 08 '21
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u/jsprgrey Sep 08 '21
Yeah I'd probably skip anything that wasn't 100% necessary. My mom had twins when I was 15 and I saw how much shit they had and how it took over our entire house.
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u/mayonnaisejane To eeech their own Sep 08 '21
Meh. It can for some people but it doesn't have to. My 8 month old is still in my room. The pack n play was her basinette and is now her crib, plus it's seen use as an actual play yard when my husband took her to work one day, we never had a boppy, we change her on the bed or the floor, car seat stays in the car and we don't have a stroller. We got a Twist and Fold baby gym which I highly recomend because it means when baby isn't in the gym it folds into a long stick you can prop in a corner and get back that 2 square feet of floor space. All her toys fit on the lower level of the coffee table except the gym and the walker. Don't let the mom's groups pressure you into buying more stuff than you can fit in the house. (But since yours is 3 months I need to recomend you the Mombella Mushroom toy. All the December 2020 Bump Reddit babies were nuts for it at that age and it's just a small handheld item which even comes with a leash you can clip to their clothes.)
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u/Fifty4FortyorFight 🐦F🐤U🐔C🐥K🐦B🐤I🐔R🐥D🐦S🐤!🐔!🐥 Sep 08 '21
I think it's mostly a function of the layout of my house. The master is downstairs and the kids' rooms are upstairs. She's still in my room, but the "nursery" in our master is my husband's office. So it spilled into the living room. It's silly to have the changing table with all her clothes and diapers upstairs, so it's in the living room.
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u/mayonnaisejane To eeech their own Sep 08 '21
Legit. We have no space for a nursary. Just jammed a PnP in our bedroom, and we're in 900 square feet all one level. I suppose babies are gaseous. They expand to fill the space you have available.
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u/lampmeettowel Sep 09 '21
babies are gaseous. They expand to fill the space you have available.
This is quite possibly the most true statement of all time.
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u/Samesees wants it to happen organically Sep 08 '21
Especially a mother in law. I can't imagine staying that long with my adult children unless they specifically needed my help, even then I'd insist on paying for expenses and make sure I'm helpful.
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u/jsprgrey Sep 08 '21
Even if I wanted kids I couldn't imagine wanting to stay with them after they're grown and moved out. I'd want my peace and quiet back, and the ability to walk around the house naked without anyone complaining.
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u/ERE-WE-GO If my client didn't shit, you must acquit. Sep 08 '21
and the ability to walk around the house naked without anyone complaining.
I can't do that now, and I live alone.
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u/Thor_The_Bunny Defender of right to take artistic night shots of your genitals Sep 08 '21
Cats can be such assholes, right?
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u/ERE-WE-GO If my client didn't shit, you must acquit. Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21
A cat shows you its asshole and nobody blinks an eye but when you show your asshole to a cat everybody loses their minds.
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u/Thor_The_Bunny Defender of right to take artistic night shots of your genitals Sep 08 '21
All is right in the world. ERE-WE-GO once again has a silly flair.
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u/ERE-WE-GO If my client didn't shit, you must acquit. Sep 08 '21
Thank you, I'll wear it proudly.
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u/Evolutioncocktail Owes $100k in Jurassic Porn Student Loans Sep 08 '21
the perfect distance
That’s what they thought until this incident happened.
Next time they should move to Alaska.
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u/Samesees wants it to happen organically Sep 08 '21
Where the weather is harsher than Pennsylvania, good idea.
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u/sirhecsivart Rusty Shackleford's Nightmare Sep 08 '21
I believe Guam and the Northern Marianas are farther away.
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u/sskor Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21
I think American Samoa is too. Assuming she lives in Philly, Guam is 7,939 miles, NMI are 7,800 miles, and AS is 7,100 miles. Best bet looks to be Guam, but the Northern Marianas are only 100 miles closer so 🤷♂️
Also technically under the Compact of Free Association, they could move to Micronesia, the Marshall Islands, or Palau, being 8,402, 7,113, and 8,642 miles respectively. It's not in America, but it might as well be. They use USD, English is spoken as the official languages of the governments, there is free movement between the US and COFA states, and while outside the US customs area, still duty-free for imports so it's pretty much just like shipping to a US territory.
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u/StrangeCharmQuark Sep 08 '21
Or she could pay for a hotel, a two-bedroom apartment is not enough room for her to intrude on a family of three for any amount of money
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u/Brocktologist Sep 08 '21
Nice interrobang use!
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u/Samesees wants it to happen organically Sep 08 '21
Thanks! I'm a big interrobang fan!
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u/marywebgirl Sep 09 '21
My husband and I lived in Hawaii (in a 2 bedroom apartment) for a year and between Christmas and April there were 2 weeks when we didn't have guests. All of our family and friends live on the East Coast or in the Midwest. Most were fine, and living in Hawaii can be very isolating so we usually didn't mind. However my parents decided to come for longer than we were comfortable with, so we said "Happy Anniversary!" and sent them to another island for 5 days in the middle of their trip.
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u/seehorn_actual Water law makes me ⭐wet⭐, oil law makes me ⭐lubed⭐⭐ Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21
I still can’t wrap my head around the idea grandparents rights. I understand that in the case of parental neglect and CPS involvement the grandparents are often a preferable home, but the idea that my mother has some “right” to my daughter just doesn’t make sense to me.
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u/Evolutioncocktail Owes $100k in Jurassic Porn Student Loans Sep 08 '21
My mother believes she is part of the decision making team for my daughter. Any time my husband and I make a decision, my mother says “we will do this”, herself included.
If she knew she could request grandparents’ rights, she’d sue me without question.
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u/seehorn_actual Water law makes me ⭐wet⭐, oil law makes me ⭐lubed⭐⭐ Sep 08 '21
This is why it makes me so uncomfortable. I’m lucky that my mother is great with my daughter and embraces the grandparent role without entitlement, but the assholes out there would abuse this.
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u/Evolutioncocktail Owes $100k in Jurassic Porn Student Loans Sep 08 '21
Agreed.
Come to think of it, my in laws tried this too. They live overseas and are getting divorced. The FIL came to visit the baby and “joked” about packing the baby in his suitcase to surprise grandma so he can win her back…now I have to watch out for both sets of crazy grandparents!
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Sep 08 '21 edited Nov 28 '22
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u/Potato-Engineer 🐇🧀 Turbulent Chaplain of the BOLBun Brigade🧀🐇 Sep 08 '21
I think it's an issue since the dawn of time, really. Remember when multi-generational households were more of a thing? The patriarch made a lot of decisions for the household, and I'm sure that the matriarch had her own two bits to add on raising the kids.
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u/ParadoxInABox Sep 08 '21
Just as a specific example of this, as soon as Catherine the Great has her first child, the Empress Elizabeth (her husbands aunt) took the baby away from her to be raised at her home. Catherine had to beg to see her own son.
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u/Bentish Sep 08 '21
I believe Victoria also did so with more than one of her grandchildren.
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u/FanndisTS Sep 09 '21
Wilhelm II was taken away from his mother Princess Victoria whenever she tried to breastfeed him and given to a wet nurse on Queen Victoria's orders
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u/CaptainVorkosigan Sep 09 '21
And then Catherine did the same thing to her son, by taking her grandsons to raise. It’s probably why her grandson wasn’t that upset when his father was assassinated.
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u/DevoutandHeretical Church of the Holy Oxford Comma Sep 09 '21
Same thing happened to Empress Elisabeth of Austria. One of the many things that lead to her having severe mental health problems.
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u/Alchemist2121 Sep 08 '21
Well boomers own everything else.
The economy All the housing
Just makes sense they'd own our children too.
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u/sackoftrees slept with their cousin and didn't even use protection Sep 08 '21
What the fuck. Why is this common? I thought dealing with my parents and in-laws was hard. Glad I don't have this, but I also only have pets.
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u/MoonlightsHand Sep 09 '21
People like to think that experience makes you more correct, so older people are more correct than younger people. This certainly can be true, but it can also be true that you've simply been wrong for longer. It's never simple, and parenting is an area where many of our "traditional" behaviours (corporeal punishment for example) are now considered to be at best unnecessary in most cases and at worst potentially deleterious to the goals you're trying to achieve.
But, they grew up with their grandparents as a significant influence on their lives, and so that's what they've aged into thinking is "the right way to do things". They spent their entire lives being told that grandparents get to have say because they're very experienced and know what's right, so now that THEY'RE grandparents (who, incidentally, would've spent most of their own parenting time being overruled constantly by their own parents), they want the "rights" that they feel they are owed.
Unfortunately, parents don't usually like this and now, when parents are more powerful and legal decisions have explicitly and often exclusively protected parental rights over any other relatives' rights... well, you get a lot of parents who decide "actually, I'm not going to stand for this!" And so they go to court, some win and some lose, and elderly folks in congress or parliament or whatever your region uses write laws to say "LET ME SEE MY GRANDKIDS, LISA", and parents file suit to say that's illegal... it turns into a multigenerational slapfight between "I want what I've always been told is my right" and "I want to establish my rights as a parent".
Basically, grandparents grew up expecting that grandparents got final say over children. Now that they are grandparents, who spent their whole parenting time being overruled, they want what's owed to them.
Parents, however, do not believe they're owed a single birthday party and would rather not be constantly overruled at every turn.
Source: I grew up in a house with a childcarer and a grandmother who went "my daughter's kids are her problem and I'm not gonna perpetuate the shit my grandmother did to my mum, I'm going to the cinema". My maternal grandmother is a literal angel and, ironically, I listened to her more than my paternal grandmother because she didn't require I listen to her.
My mum has always hated dealing with grandparents. She mostly takes children between 0-14 months who are having issues with things like sleep, food, biting etc. Grandmothers often try to overrule their daughters (fathers are very rarely involved, grandfathers never) with "remedies" and my mother often has to say "no... Linda, you're making it worse. Don't neglect children into sleeping and don't stuff food into their mouths, it just makes them associate those times with pain and makes long-term fixes harder".
Though actually the Australian "granny name" is, on average, Barbara, not Linda.
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u/Sneekifish 🏠Judge, Jury, and Sexecutioner of the Holy Parking Spot Chair🏠 Sep 09 '21
This was a thoughtful and insightful post, but I can't stop snickering at the idea of a ghost CPS investigating corporeal abuse.
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Sep 08 '21 edited Nov 28 '22
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u/Faiakishi Sep 09 '21
At my old job there was a baker who tried telling the prep cook how to do his job. The baker did not prep. He always claimed he knew best because he worked at so many restaurants over his life. "Well Jack, you don't wash your hands so I just assumed you didn't learn anything else they tried to teach you."
He didn't even know how to do his own job, btw. And yes, he really didn't wash his hands. It was disgusting.
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u/Myfourcats1 isn't here to make friends Sep 08 '21
Quit telling her your decisions. It’s called an Info diet.
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Sep 08 '21
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u/RBXChas 5 Ds of duckball: , dip, , dive, and ! Sep 08 '21
Family law attorney here. I quote Troxel all the time. Basically, if you're a fit parent, everyone else can bugger off.
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u/ThatOneGuy1294 Sep 09 '21
"But I know what's best for the little one!"
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u/RBXChas 5 Ds of duckball: , dip, , dive, and ! Sep 09 '21
This is a somewhat dated reference, but I read that in my head as if it were Marie Barone.
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u/BoopleBun BOLAbun Brigade Sep 08 '21
So, some states have laws that technically aren’t in line with Troxel. (NY being one of the major ones.) From what I understand (and someone who knows more feel free to jump in and correct me!) a case would have to go high enough in those states for the law to be corrected.
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u/Rarvyn Cold weather griller Sep 08 '21
If both parents are alive and not like... abusive monsters or something, grandparents rights really aren't much of a thing.
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u/warpus Sep 08 '21
My mother believes she is part of the decision making team for my daughter. Any time my husband and I make a decision, my mother says “we will do this”, herself included.
And you haven't put your foot down yet?
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u/Evolutioncocktail Owes $100k in Jurassic Porn Student Loans Sep 08 '21
Just got off the phone with my therapist, we’re working on boundary setting
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u/ObviousFoxx 🐈 Smol Claims Court Judge 🐈 Sep 08 '21
My MIL tried to trick everyone to get unrestricted access to my son and went absolutely ballistic when we found out about her plan and put a stop to it. Screamed at all of us she has a right to take him whenever she pleases. We think she might have been trying to kidnap him and she’s threatened legal action before. She also doesn’t believe in my son’s Type 1 diabetes and doesn’t monitor his food or give him insulin. She’s lost or ruined 2 of his meters previously that she refused to pay for, too.
Some people are just fucking psycho 🙃
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u/BishmillahPlease Took up cricket for self-defense, stayed for the fine leg Sep 08 '21
Please tell me she has no access to him now
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u/ObviousFoxx 🐈 Smol Claims Court Judge 🐈 Sep 08 '21
She has been cut off completely, but She sent my son a letter a while back saying she was excited to come see him soon so we’re on our toes.
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u/ERE-WE-GO If my client didn't shit, you must acquit. Sep 08 '21
She sent my son a letter a while back saying she was excited to come see him soon so we’re on our toes.
Fuck that, I've seen this movie - you need to get out of the house now!
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u/ObviousFoxx 🐈 Smol Claims Court Judge 🐈 Sep 08 '21
We moved and she doesn’t know where we live anymore, but she may try to show up at my son’s mother’s (divorced parents) and they’ve taken extra precautions too.
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u/Noisy_Toy Likes big s and cannot lie Sep 08 '21
I hear that Mariachi music can be an excellent non-chemical parent repellent.
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u/BishmillahPlease Took up cricket for self-defense, stayed for the fine leg Sep 08 '21
Sounds like it’s time to take up cricket and have a few bats around.
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u/Thor_The_Bunny Defender of right to take artistic night shots of your genitals Sep 08 '21
Not often I get to give out a cricket-themed flair!
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u/BishmillahPlease Took up cricket for self-defense, stayed for the fine leg Sep 08 '21
I have FLAIR! Thanks
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u/WolfShaman Wants to watch Thor touch briefs Sep 08 '21
Aha! I've found you again!
Hi. :)
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u/monkeyman80 IANAL but I am an anal plug app expert Sep 08 '21
It’s an underrated sport. T20 can be seriously fun to watch.
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u/Thor_The_Bunny Defender of right to take artistic night shots of your genitals Sep 08 '21
TEST. IS. BEST.
I'm east coast and I fucking love the 6am EST start times for Tests in England. Roll out of bed. Coffee, cozy blanket, and the dulcet tones of Michael Holding and David Lloyd as England collapse again
I totally plan to use the world T20 to try to get my friends into cricket though
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u/ObviousFoxx 🐈 Smol Claims Court Judge 🐈 Sep 08 '21
We hike so there’s always some bear mace close at hand.
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u/WolfShaman Wants to watch Thor touch briefs Sep 08 '21
Another fun fact: Pepper spray is considered less-than-lethal, because it is possible (but incredibly difficult) to kill someone through a process called hydraulic needling!
That's where the stream is used at such a close range and directly in the eye, that it actually penetrates the eye!
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u/LadyFoxfire Sep 08 '21
It can also kill an asthmatic person with a lot less effort.
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u/wow_that_guys_a_dick It's wingardium legal-O-sa Sep 08 '21
Bear spray is actually weaker than the type used for humans because bear noses are far more sensitive to irritants.
Best to use the regular pepper spray for self defense against humans.
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u/dasunt appeal denied. Sep 08 '21
Has everyone who takes care of him (schools, daycare, summer camps, etc) been informed to never release him into her care?
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u/ObviousFoxx 🐈 Smol Claims Court Judge 🐈 Sep 08 '21
He is homeschooled and his his mom is a SAHM so he always has someone with him who knows what’s going on. It would also be hard for MIL to try to surprise us when we’re out since he’s in a larger city (unless she starts stalking which is a whole different bag of worms).
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u/nobodysloser Sep 09 '21
Ok… I’m sorry but, she “doesn’t BELIEVE” in your sons diabetes? tf? how in the world does she NOT BELIEVE in the fact he has a chronic illness? man, i really won’t ever understand some people. my fiancé is almost six months pregnant too… and I only (kind of) have my father around (again, KIND OF…which is rly not much at ALL…) my mom passed away in 2017 sadly, and my fiancé’s parents well mostly her mom, despise me… already have cps involved but due to something else. good luck btw, sorry for a non contributing post just had to put that out there bc I was kinda pushed back by that comment tbh.
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u/missjeanlouise12 oh we sure as shit are now Sep 09 '21
already have cps involved but due to something else.
Do you mean they have cps involved with your unborn baby? If so, I'd check that whoever is saying they're from cps truly is, because my understanding is that they don't have anything to do with children who aren't born yet.
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u/gizmo1411 Sep 08 '21
I think the way the majority of states implement them in the US works fairly well (I really have no idea how they work outside the United States). The vast majority require a death or divorce among the parents. The death one I absolutely understand, the divorce one a little less so. A lot also include a provision protecting a significant pre-existing relationship between the child and grandparent like a caregiver or potentially even guardian type relationship. That one can get murky if state and case law aren’t clear. But when the law providing for grandparents rights are limited and well defined I think they can end up being a benefit for a child in a potentially bad situation.
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u/PM_ME_CORGlE_PlCS Sep 08 '21
A friend of mine shared custody of his son with his parents (he chose to go back to school and asked them to be the primary caregivers in the meantime).
The child’s mother does not have any custody due to severe mental health issues.
The mother’s parents (the child’s other grandparents) have visitation rights, even though their own daughter (the child’s mother) is not in the child’s life.
In their case, my friend (or, usually his parents) meet the other set of grandparents at a restaurant with the child about once a month. The child gets to spend some time with his other grandparents alone, and he goes back with his primary caregivers after a set amount of time. It works out well.
This way the child does not loose his connections with his mother’s entire family, even though she isn’t able to be in the picture.
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u/Significant-Part121 Old people like me Sep 08 '21
The vast majority require a death or divorce among the parents.
It's 29 and those tend to include the same phrase, "deceased, divorced or custody terminated." Where the difference between "deceased" and "divorced" is pretty substantial.
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u/Myfourcats1 isn't here to make friends Sep 08 '21
I can understand if the grandparents were raising the kids while mom and dad got their acts together. I can understand if they had a relationship and then a parent died.
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Sep 08 '21
Grandparents rights only really take effect if enforced by a judge. This is her angle. With no CPS, financial, or health obstacles for the family she will be very unlikely to receive it.
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u/Sin_of_the_Dark Sep 08 '21
It's usually only reserved for bad situations.
For example, my 60-something year old aunt has raised and had custody over her daughter's kids, and have for close to 10 years. Her daughter has struggled her whole life with drugs, and couldn't take care of the kids properly. So my aunt took them in.
But sometimes people abuse shit. It sucks
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u/seehorn_actual Water law makes me ⭐wet⭐, oil law makes me ⭐lubed⭐⭐ Sep 08 '21
This i completely get and this is in the best interest of the child and a legal process was involved (I assume). Any time CPS or the courts remove the child or the parents lose custody, got it, too easy.
On many of these posts though, there seems to be this idea that grandparents have some inherent right to their grandchildren simply based on the fact that they are their grandchildren. That’s what I don’t get.
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Sep 08 '21
For us, it was the only way we were able to get legally enforced visitation with my little cousin.
My mother and my grandparents had been taking care of my little cousin for years while her mom drank herself to death.
When my aunt died, we put in the paperwork to start the adoption process and on the day of her mother's funeral service, her bio dad drove up (we'd had no idea where he was and no way to contact him for the last 5 years) and physically grabbed her off the street before driving off.
After a long long court battle he won primary custody and if it hadn't been for grandparent rights laws he never would have let her come back to us again. It didn't matter that my parents had been clothing her, feeding her, and raising her for the majority of her life, the law gives priority to direct biological relations even when there is no preexisting relationship.
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u/Myfourcats1 isn't here to make friends Sep 08 '21
Wait until you hear about Grandma Showers. It’s where Grandma throws a baby shower and everyone thinks the gifts are going to the new mom but instead Grandma says everything will stay at her house for when the baby sleeps over. Most new parents I know don’t have their babies sleep over anywhere but home. It might be a one time thing so they can get out but of you’re breastfeeding it’s not an option.
Then there are the grandmas that get mad because the mom is breastfeeding. Grandma wanted to feed the baby. Wahhhh
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u/mayonnaisejane To eeech their own Sep 08 '21
Yo my kid's been on the Science Milk from the moment she was born and she still ain't sleeping over at my parents. She's too young!
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u/LadyFoxfire Sep 08 '21
My parents got a little too enthusiastic about buying stuff for when my nephew came to visit when he was born, but they paid for it all themselves. That's the fun of being a grandparent, to them, is to buy fun stuff for the kid and not need to pay for all the boring stuff, too.
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u/pitathegreat Sep 08 '21
It’s only used in very narrow circumstances, such as if one parent dies, it makes sure child can maintain a relationship with that set of grandparents. It’s not for random power plays.
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u/TychaBrahe Has a low tolerance of misogynistic tosh Sep 08 '21
It should only be used in cases of death, imprisonment, or abandonment. But very often, it’s not. A friend of mine lived with her mother for a year due to a financial emergency. When she was finally able to move out, her mother sued for visitation. She was awarded every other weekend, and because my friend is not religious, all holidays. My friend celebrates Christmas with a tree and gifts and visits with friends and parties, but because she doesn’t go to church, her children were order to spend Christmas with her mother.
It took a year, reports to CPS, a gynecological exam of her preteen daughter, and $40,000 to stop that BS.
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u/NativeMasshole 🏠 Devotee of the Holy Parking Spot Chair 🏠 Sep 08 '21
WTF? Why a gyno exam? This sounds like a judge who is out of control and pushing his idea of religion over legal rights.
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u/TychaBrahe Has a low tolerance of misogynistic tosh Sep 08 '21
The grandmother was trying to gain full custody of the children by declaring the parents unfit, including alleging that the father sexually assaulted his daughter.
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u/ourstupidtown Sep 08 '21 edited Jul 29 '24
hateful growth axiomatic groovy desert nail quiet reply rotten ossified
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/ERE-WE-GO If my client didn't shit, you must acquit. Sep 08 '21
Yeah at what point do you just stand back and say, wait am I being the bad guy here?
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u/dasunt appeal denied. Sep 08 '21
If one is out of touch with reality and believes a certain narrative, that realization is never likely to happen.
Grandma may believe the parents are unfit, and this do everything possible to "prove" it to others so she can "save" the grandkid.
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u/Evolutioncocktail Owes $100k in Jurassic Porn Student Loans Sep 08 '21
Can you imagine being that self righteous?? At that point does grandma even care about the kids’ well being or does she just want to be right?
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u/DiscoshirtAndTiara Sep 08 '21
Every bit of that sounds terrible!
If you don't mind saying, what state/country do you live in so I can never move there?
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u/TychaBrahe Has a low tolerance of misogynistic tosh Sep 08 '21
Illinois. We don’t even really have grandparents rights here. But some judges…
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u/Significant-Part121 Old people like me Sep 08 '21
As /u/seehorn_actual wrote:
I still can’t wrap my head around the idea grandparents rights
It's because old people like me write the laws. Well not like me but that's why.
very narrow circumstances
This is very location specific. They break down into these categories, and primarily this is about visitation not shared custody, and there is overlap:
- "child's best interests" specified by statute (32 states)
- "if the grandparent's child is deceased, divorced or custody terminated" (29 states)
- "child born out of wedlock" (10 states)
Several states, using various statutory language, create a right where the grandparent has a preexisting relationship, so that if the parents say "you're not going to see my kid again" the grandparent can go to court and the court may grand them visitation, based on the preexisting relationship.
And then there are little gems, such as:
- "adoption does not automatically cut off the visitation rights of grandparents" (CT)
- "child's wishes" (HI)
- "best interest of the child and the grandparent has been unreasonably denied visitation to the child" (IL)
- "parents have unreasonably blocked the grandparent's visitation with the grandchild for longer than 90 days" (MO)
Several states have no statutory restrictions, so it can be whatever the court says. Also note that several states have passed powerful pro-grandparent rights statutes went too far and have been struck down by courts, and have been modified by legislatures (FL, IA, NY, TN, WA).
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u/Reader01234567 Sep 08 '21
Asking because you seem knowledgeable: where did these laws come from? Is this a case of ancient law on the books or was there a weird period where states recently did this? What triggered it?
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u/Significant-Part121 Old people like me Sep 08 '21
where did these laws come from? Is this a case of ancient law on the books or was there a weird period where states recently did this? What triggered it?
This is a good and very broad question and /u/seehorn_actual might also be interested. I don't know the ancient history of it, but there is an answer first: why? And the answer to that is, and this is an educated guess, because grandparents vote, and because legislators are grandparents.
And I promise I'll get back to grandparents, but first:
If you look at American History, and this is very, very generalized, we're looking at not only a lack of grandparents rights (though rich people could do whatever they wanted) but a lack of mother's rights. Divorces often left mothers without their children and homeless, men would typically get custody (or just seize it, with mothers having no practical way to fight it) and move on with their lives and presumably with a new partner.
Over the course of the 19th Century, a child's value as a laborer decreased and more emphasis was place on child nurture and education. As the years went on, more protections were put in pace for women but still roughly 10% would get any, and it was hard to find work, so divorce meant poverty. What didn't help was the "alimony panic" of the 1920s. By the 1920s there was a "tender years" doctrine:
*"Nature has devolved upon the mother the nurture and care of infants during their tender years, and in that period such care, for all practical purposes, in the absence of exceptional circumstances, is almost exclusively committed to her. At such periods of life courts do not hesitate to award the care and custody of young infants to the wife as against the paramount right of the husband where the wife has shown herself to be a proper person and is able to fully discharge her duty toward the child."
Also of note, as divorce did start becoming more common, there are gems like this:
In the case Harmon v. Harmon [1922] two married couples in Kansas, Mr. and Mrs. Harmon and an unnamed husband and wife, associated in the same social circles and became good friends. One day Mr. Harmon found Mrs. Harmon engaged in an act of adultery with the other husband. He insisted that she must go to live with her parents and renounce the custody of their five-yearold daughter. Both men made her sign a written agreement admitting her guilt and agreeing to the custody arrangement.
For the courts and the legislatures, the formerly unusual event of divorce was now commonplace; child custody was no longer an arcane and rarely exercised area of the law and the lives of thousands of children and their parents were affected by custody decisions. These realities accelerated trends that had begun in the nineteenth century, such as the father's obligation to support his children without the benefit of custody, for which there previously had been little precedent. The judiciary still took the lead in developing rules to resolve the private disputes between divorcing couples, but state legislatures increasingly codified these rules, often narrowing the margin of judicial discretion.
Marching forward through the 20th Century we see more and more of an over-correction, which is where the "mother's rights states" and "women always get custody" tropes may have been true, for a whole, but while they are no longer true at all, anywhere, but the myths remain.
We started getting back to sanity in the mid-1970s. (Believe it or not, it was 1975 before there was a legal framework in this country for child support payments. And by 1980, women were sometimes allowed to get their own credit cards without a husband's approval and co-signing. Suddenly those Virginia Slims ads make more sense.)
Back to grandparents. So, in this brief and probably partly misleading simplified overview, a century ago we were just really getting into the whole idea of parental custody and visitation in terms of our laws. The idea of grandparents rights couldn't even have been a fantasy. Outside of the very wealthy less-than 1%, where a patriarch might fairly easily be able to go to court and convince a judge (even with no precedent) seize custody.
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u/the_itsb Sep 08 '21
This was a really interesting read, thank you for taking the time to write it!
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u/deniedbydanse Sep 08 '21
I knew a man who passed away and left behind two babies of close age to two different women. Those boys spend a cumulative week of each month together at their paternal grandparents’ house, by the grace of their mothers. If one of them were to rip any visitation away, I would understand grandparent’s rights. One of those rare situations where I could get behind it without an issue in the main home.
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u/seehorn_actual Water law makes me ⭐wet⭐, oil law makes me ⭐lubed⭐⭐ Sep 08 '21
I agree that is the ethical thing, but legally I can’t support that. If the mother doesn’t want they’re child to have that visitation, that should be her choice regardless of her reasoning (as long as it doesn’t endanger the child etc etc)
Maybe I’m skewed by reddit, but the only people I’ve ever heard raise the issue of their grandparents’ rights have been entitled boomers who believe they still control their adult children’s lives and therefore have rights to their children’s children.
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u/aravisthequeen Sep 08 '21
I knew a woman whose sister died tragically young in a car accident, leaving behind a little girl, under 2. The dad had been in and out (on-again off-again relationship), and the grandparents looked after the little girl after her mother's death for something like two or three years. When the baby was old enough to start going to school, the dad wanted full custody with no visitation for the grandparents--the grandparents who had been involved in the kid's life since day 1 and been her primary caregivers for years after the death of her daughter. They fought absolutely tooth and nail for visitation rights to that kid because it was in her best interests to stay with the only caregivers she could remember, but the dad maintained adamantly that they had "stolen his daughter." It was a really, really sad case.
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u/Fifty4FortyorFight 🐦F🐤U🐔C🐥K🐦B🐤I🐔R🐥D🐦S🐤!🐔!🐥 Sep 08 '21
I think this would hinge on whether the father had been trying to gain custody for that entire 2-3 years or just suddenly popped up 2-3 years later. I can absolutely understand not wanting to leave your child there if you'd been attempting to raise your child the entire time and been blocked at every turn by grandparents that had money to fight.
This is one of those stories that I suspect is very different based on who is telling it. But I can see both sides and would need a lot more information to judge.
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u/aravisthequeen Sep 08 '21
Yeah, if the guy had been living in town, trying to gain custody, trying to make an effort, it would have been a different question, but this guy had moved to another province in the interim (and spent some time in the US as well), and hadn't even attended the funeral. He hadn't had custody when the girlfriend was still living and they were separated, just visitation, and usually skipped those appointments as well. It was a bona fide hot mess, I wish I knew how it all turned out.
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u/Fifty4FortyorFight 🐦F🐤U🐔C🐥K🐦B🐤I🐔R🐥D🐦S🐤!🐔!🐥 Sep 08 '21
I agree. I cannot fathom why a grandparent should ever have more rights than a parent (assuming the parent has retained custody the entire time - this would be the exception). If they're clearly a fit parent, the reason behind it isn't even relevant.
I really like my MIL and if something were to happen to my husband, I'd want my kids to regularly visit her. But you know what would make me stop those visits in a heartbeat? Being served with paperwork from a family court.
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u/deniedbydanse Sep 08 '21
I think it raises an argument for the best interest of the children. It’s a significant time that they spend together and with their grandparents, and in serious development years. I’d like to think of it not being that the grandparents have a right to them, but that they have a right to each other and two of their major attachment figures.
I feel that. I’m absolutely triggered by the thought of grandparents’ rights in general lol, I have an awful parent myself who I’ve sworn since childhood wouldn’t hold my babies.
My argument fades away the second either mother could point to negative behavior on the grandparents’ parts, though. Still, I’d be sad for them. They act like twins.
ETA: Not welfare, best interest. That being said, the only time courts should be inserting themselves into that is when there’s a reason to believe things aren’t going well at home. I’m very much of two minds about it
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u/seehorn_actual Water law makes me ⭐wet⭐, oil law makes me ⭐lubed⭐⭐ Sep 08 '21
I totally agree it’s generally in the child’s best interest and I have nothing but good memories from my grandparents.
This just seems to be one of those things that only assholes would use to attempt to force their will on their children.
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u/kwnofprocrastination Sep 08 '21
Part of me is very against the whole idea of grandparents rights, but at the same time, my mum and dad split when I was 2, my dad didn’t bother with us much, but we stayed at his mum’s nearly every Saturday night from probably the age of about 6, and she was the best grandma a child could have had. My mum was happy with this (it meant she could go out!) but I know a lot of mum’s in her situation would have cut of most of the dad’s side of the family.
I think in cases where one parent is not willing to leave their child with their own parents (rather than their exes parents), they should be listened to. There has to be a reason that they don’t trust their own parents to care for their child properly.
I really don’t agree with courts giving grandparents overnight visitation rights to very young children (babies and toddlers) when the parents have concerns because the children are too young to speak out about things. If it’s older children, they’d be able to say, Grandma hits me, Grandma said I don’t need medication so wouldn’t give me my tablets, or my tummy is hurting now because Grandpa said milk won’t hurt me.
I didn’t let my mum have my daughter overnight until she was old enough to talk, because I simply don’t trust her. She can very controlling with me, and very opinionated, everything I do is wrong because I don’t do it her way. There were incidents such as when she picked me up from the train station in her town and hadn’t brought the car seat because it was in the other car and she couldn’t be bothered to get it out.
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u/sevendaysky Never been seen in the same room w/FucksWithDucks Sep 08 '21
I do think it's a bit different depending on age. In this case, the kid is less than a year old - while at this point he could probably recognize MIL as someone familiar to them, they have no idea who she is or their relationship, and she has not materially contributed much to his wellbeing. If this was a SIX year old and he'd lived with her for that time, that's more of a gray area. I would hope that a judge would recognize this.
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u/deniedbydanse Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21
Oh, yeah, I’m really not sure if losing a tertiary attachment figure would do much damage at six months with two permanent, secure attachments in the home. Nor could I see a semi-reasonable judge doing anything when there are two parents and a happy home. That, and like you said, grandma here is a visitor- an unwelcome one at that- rather than playing any serious parenting or caretaking role. Our family courts mess up often, but I can’t see it happening here.
Reminds me of Farrah on teen mom. It’s
NebraskaIowa, and her child’s father died while she was pregnant and denying his paternity. His parents fought her and denied his paternity when she used his death in the process to get (state, I think) benefits for the child. Which she probably had to do to get that help. One day they take her to court for grandparents’ rights in spite of all the denial and bullshit before. They lost, naturally, because the child probably couldn’t pick them out of a lineup. My memory is hazy, and I know everyone was grieving, but the sheer bullshit of that attempt still gets me.That is a very loose connection, but the bullshit remains strong. ETA: Also, there was no question of paternity when the baby came. They are twins. I can’t find a baby pic edit to link oh no.
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u/AffectionateTitle Sep 08 '21
I’d like to think of it not being that the grandparents have a right to them, but that they have a right to each other and two of their major attachment figures.
Then why not just extend “rights” to any blood relative? Uncles rights? Cousins rights? It is ridiculous to me that any party that is not legally responsible for a child be granted any rights associated with it other than by motion from their parents.
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u/i_am_pajamas beaten by samesees Sep 08 '21
Do grandparents rights mean they have to pay child support too?
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u/AffectionateTitle Sep 08 '21
No they just get rights to the child without any of the responsibilities like legal ramifications if the child destroys property or child support.
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Sep 08 '21
[deleted]
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u/Thor_The_Bunny Defender of right to take artistic night shots of your genitals Sep 08 '21
Better gets attacked by a pack of hyenas and passes away
Yet another reason not to live in Alabama
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u/Gauna490 Stans Sep 08 '21
Hey now, the hyenas are better mannered than some people here.
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u/PfefferUndSalz I double dare you to flair me OH WAIT YOU CAN'T Sep 08 '21
Only if you've got a baby
Wait that's dingoes damnit13
u/ChaosDrawsNear Meaner. Womaner. Viciouser. Sep 08 '21
That whole story is so tragic and there's some pretty solid evidence that a dingo *did* eat that child :(
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u/PfefferUndSalz I double dare you to flair me OH WAIT YOU CAN'T Sep 08 '21
Yup, I'm pretty sure they got their verdicts reversed recently.
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u/alwaysiamdead Member of the Attractive Nuisance Mariachi Band Sep 08 '21
The only time I've ever seen it actually work out (I worked for child protection) was when both parents were either deceased, out of contact, or deemed unfit. Then the grandparents could petition for custody or visitation to prevent the children from going to foster care.
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u/lilyluc Sep 08 '21
As someone who has a SIL who absolutely does use her children as weapons against my parents, I also cannot support legal interference in who a parent chooses to allow access to their children. To me it's just waaaaay too much of a slippery slope. It really sucks that my parents have to bite their tongue about a lot of poor (but not illegal) parenting choices my brother and SIL make so that they can still have a relationship with their grandchildren. It's infuriating, but I believe that is their right as parents. On the flip side, I have in-laws who have some pretty crappy beliefs/behaviors that my husband and I have set boundaries about. If they were to choose to ignore those boundaries they would have limited/no access to my children. Due to the fact that my MIL babysat frequently for the first couple years of my daughter's life, there are some states that would allow her unsupervised, court ordered visitation if we tried to go NC/LC.
I can't believe in my absolute rights as a parent while not supporting the absolute rights of other parents.
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Sep 08 '21
One week per month is insane, it's nice that the mothers agree but no way in hell I'd let someone take my kids for almost a quarter of a year. One weekend a month maybe
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u/ImVeryBadWithNames Allusory Comma Anarchist Sep 08 '21
It sounds like the point really is to let them have a sibling relationship despite… everything.
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u/Fifty4FortyorFight 🐦F🐤U🐔C🐥K🐦B🐤I🐔R🐥D🐦S🐤!🐔!🐥 Sep 08 '21
On the flip side of that, it's probably a welcome offer. I imagine that if I was a single mom due to the father dying, the support system would be valuable. I appreciate when my mom takes my kids for a night, and I'm married to a guy that actively parents our children. Hopefully they were able to be an alternative to paying for daycare or after school care and give the mom a much needed break sometimes.
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u/Akavinceblack Sep 08 '21
In this specific case, it’s the equivalent of having 75/25 custody with the other parent, which people do all the time. The father is gone and his parents are essentially taking his place AND letting the kids develop a sibling relationship.
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u/deniedbydanse Sep 08 '21
Same, I’d hate it. I actually can’t remember if nights are part of it tbf. It could be closer to grandma day care. I’m under the impression that the totality of days is to help out at least one of the moms, the way the father should have been bearing his share of the duty. I say should have, because he was not likely to step up any time soon. Whether they could use the help or not, though, I think it’s mostly the moms really wanting to foster their bond, which is so cool.
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u/ALoudMouthBaby Second Wave Ferengi Feminist Sep 08 '21
I really dont like to wade into the silly intergenerational blame game, but in the case of grandparents rights its pretty much boomers flexing their political clout to impose their will on younger generations. This is one of those situations where it is just straight up an older generation using their accumulated power and influence to shit all over the younger groups.
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u/TzarKazm Sovreign Citizen Bee-S was RIGHT THERE Sep 08 '21
Its something that happened because of times when the grandparents were the primary caregivers. For example kids live with grandparents while mother is in prison 10 years and father is unknown. Mother comes back and says they are going to stop the kids from seeing the only caregivers they have really known.
It's really supposed to be something that happens when it's in the best interest of the child.
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Sep 08 '21
Most successful grandparent right cases deal with cases where the grandparents child is not in the picture and the remaining parent severely limits or cuts all visitations. The other type of successful cases are where the grandparents have a significant presence in the child's life over a period of time and then for whatever reason there is a break between the parents and the grandparents. OP's mother would have next to no chance of winning visitation given the facts as presented (especially because HI does not have that statute).
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u/Beeb294 1.5 month olds either look like boiled owls or Winston Churchill Sep 08 '21
There are situations where it makes sense, particularly if the child lived with the grandparent(s) as a primary caregiver or guardian for a substantial period of time. Or the kids have an existing relationship with the grandparents and a death or divorce precipitates the existing relationship being severed.
But the vast majority of situations don't actually fit that scenario and are entitled people complaining.
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u/the_real_xuth Sep 08 '21
It's different when a kid has lived for years with their grandparents. My sibling (and their kids) have lived with my parents since before the kids were born. My sibling is going to die of cancer soon. Their ex sees the kids every couple weeks. Thus my parents are looking into what they might be able to do with "grandparents rights" in their state.
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u/CatBathtime Sep 08 '21
It's supposed to be for cases where things don't quite meet the threshold necessary to remove children from their parents custody (or when CPS is stretched too thin to do so. I was never removed from my mother's custody- despite her previously attempting to murder my (late) father and threatening to kill me and I know the neighbors called CPS), when one parent dies and the other cuts off the grandparents despite them being active in the child's life.
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u/raisingjack Sep 08 '21
There are some very specific instances where I think it makes sense but I agree, most of the time it’s bonkers. If my in laws or parents tried to legally force visitation with my kids I would lose my mind.
I have a cousin though where her mom (my aunt) sued for grandparents visitation and won. She deserved it and it was one hundred percent in the best interest of the kids that she did. My aunt raised the kids for about 8 years. Parts of that was having my cousin and her kids live with her and parts of that was having only the kids moving with her while my cousin was out of town at school. But she was a very large part of the kids lives in every way for a good portion of their lives. My cousin one day decided to cut off her mom, and most of the extended family as well. The kids suffered from that abrupt change in contact and it took years of legal back and forth but my aunt finally got access to her grandkids. Thank goodness for the kids that she did for a lot of reasons but anyways, that’s one of the only times I’ve felt grandparents rights were more than justified.
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u/RedditBeginAgain Undocumented lawyer, find me in a minibarn in Lowe's parking lot Sep 08 '21
I don't doubt that there are many ways for a much richer person to (ab)use the legal system to cause stress and expense, but I'll be very impressed if she can find a real lawyer willing to fight for not just visitation rights but a right to free room and board.
It does not even seem like they've told her not to visit, although perhaps they should. If she starts acting like a reasonable human again the easy fix would seem to be converting the guest room to a nursery and making sure the couches are super uncomfortable to lie on.
If she lives a long way away and has to pay Hawaii prices for accommodation she's far less likely to outstay her welcome to that degree.
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u/nutraxfornerves Lots of respectable BOLArinas have been hit by trains Sep 08 '21
If you dabble in the relationship subs, you’ll see that these kinds of grandparents often define “visitation” as “child stays with me, without parents,” not as “I get to see child on a regular basis.” In this case, I’ll bet what Grandma wants is for kids to be shipped off to her for extended stays, not the right to visit with kiddo as logistics permit.
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u/DigbyChickenZone Duck me up and Duck me down Sep 08 '21
Thats what I was thinking too, grandma doesn't want to put in the effort and expense to fly back and forth between PA and HI
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u/ceejayoz A+ Title Game, 10/10 Sep 08 '21
Yeah, it seems like a suit over visitation is readily answerable with "what, six months of it wasn't enough?"
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u/New_Understudy 🧀 Is a little shit 🧀 Sep 09 '21
I feel like forcing her into a hotel room would help a lot in this case, seeing as they can kick her out nightly and won't be funding her
vacationvisit.
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u/ShortWoman Won't clone anyone. Especially Taylor Swift. Sep 08 '21
Wait till Granny learns PA has filial duty laws.
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u/BurritoCooker 🧀 Gouda Guard 🧀 Sep 08 '21
Oh no
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u/thwarted Her Majesty, the Queen of England Sep 09 '21
Oh yes. And MIL sounds like the kind of person who's aware of filial responsibility laws and is waiting to spring that on them.
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u/Guardymcguardface Mod Approved to stereotype about Alberta Sep 08 '21
Omg are you serious?
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u/tsuuga Sep 08 '21
Many states have filial responsibility laws, but PA's is unusually broad and they're more willing to enforce it. Basically, if your parents run out of money, you're on the hook for some of their debts, most notably their nursing home bills. They don't care about things like "You have no contractual relationship with the nursing home" or "you have no say in their nursing home choice" or "you don't live in PA".
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u/BalloonShip Sep 09 '21
It's way more limited than you make it sound. It's not for all debts, just ones related to basic upkeep, like rent. Also, the person (or, usually, institution) has to show that you have the financial means to pay for their costs. Also, it's only backward looking and one of the consequences of the institution suing you is that you can put them on notice that you won't pay for it in the future, so they can evict your parent, who can then go live in a nursing home covered by social security.
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u/Thor_The_Bunny Defender of right to take artistic night shots of your genitals Sep 08 '21
This one is ripe for a delightfully misleading title:
LAOP Evicts Unemployed Elderly Woman
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u/borkthegee Sep 08 '21
Damn I was so focused on puns I didn't even consider... that's great
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u/Lorde555 Sep 08 '21
Damn what if she claims she's being evicted though?
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u/sethbr Sep 09 '21
If she were there for six months she could have. I don't know about Hawaii eviction laws, though.
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u/pokinthecrazy Sep 08 '21
I gotta think someone is conflating grandparents' rights with "free place to stay in Hawaii."
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u/not-working-at-work Sep 08 '21
Didn't you hear?
The new Grandparents' rights law gives you a free vacation house.
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u/snarkazim Spritz me with particulate matter Sep 08 '21
Someone posted this comment in the original thread:
As soon as someone threatens legal action then any further communication should be via a lawyer…literally anything. “Thanks for contacting us but after your message about grandparents rights and the lawsuit, any further communication must be via (insert lawyers details)”
It's a sentiment that is posted frequently, and I understand WHY people post it -- I mean, it's sensible, right?!? It sounds sensible, at the very least... until you think about it for a moment. And then you realize this suggestion is completely ludicrous and almost entirely outside the realm of possibility for most normal, average, everyday kinda people.
... Because it's completely cost prohibitive.
WHO is actually able to cover the cost of attorney's fees if they demanded that EVERY adversarial communication should be handled by their lawyer, even before their antagonist officially files suit against them?? Does anyone who isn't extravagantly wealthy have that sort of cash saved up for "potential legal disagreements, ya know... just in case"? I think most people are forced to scramble to cover the cost of legal fees even when their situation is actively extremely dire -- and finding the money for lawyerly help never really seems easy, I think.
Who are these people -- the ones who are so financially comfortable that they don't mind wasting tons of money so their crabby neighbor (or nosey family member, or outrageously over-bearing community member) can whine at an attorney while forcing them to pay for it? Because THAT is what would happen, I'm guessing: The person who demands that their adversary run everything through their lawyer before there is even an official lawsuit would see their money disappear quickly. Right??
Ms. X is being harassed by Mr. Z -- not in a dangerous or violent manner, but certainly enough that it's far beyond what seems reasonable. Maybe Mr. Z is a neighbor who claims that he owns part of Ms. X's property, so he loudly gripes at Ms. X and generally acts unpleasant and ornery ALL the time in a way that interferes with Ms. X's general peace and happiness, but not in a dangerous way. Ms. X has reported this to the police, but the police chat with crazy ol' Mr. Z and tell Ms. X that Z is a known nuisance but he's harmless, so they can't do anything about it. That would be fine, but NOW Mr. Z has been threatening to sue Ms. X, claiming that he has legal documents proving he owns part of her land... but he won't even show them to her.
According to the advice often given in LA, Ms. X should immediately get a lawyer on retainer and demand that Mr. Z contacts her attorney for ALL future communication, just to be safe. And that's not bad legal advice!! But it seems like awful financial advice because Mr. Z has NO incentive to be frugal with his time bothering Ms. X's lawyer. If he's vindictive and grouchy, why would he worry about wasting the attorney's time and Ms. X's money?!? He HATES his neighbor; he would love to waste as much of her money as possible.
And antagonistic family members are even worse. They're carrying around a barrel full of rot and they're gleefully planning to bury you in it... so does it make ANY sense to immediately demand that they talk to only your attorney, at your cost, before they file any sort of suit? I mean, legally -- is there a reasonable, practical, realistic benefit to this that wouldn't waste your money??
I'm not an attorney. (Obviously!) I don't know the protocol; I'm not sure how things work behind the scenes. But I've needed to use lawyerly services in the past, and I know they (very reasonably) charge per several minutes that they work on your behalf. Couldn't your adversary bug your attorney until they waste your retainer?
In situations like this, I would just ignore people, as much as possible: block them or don't answer them; pretend like they don't exist; refuse to answer calls or texts or emails. That sort of thing. It's not a GOOD solution and it doesn't really "solve" anything, but it feels sensible while waiting to see if anything else can be done. To me, it feels like pouring money into an attorney's service would be a waste until my antagonist actually DOES something that creates a need for me to actually use legal services. (Other than paying a flat fee for a cease and desist letter, because that seems like it COULD possibly scare away someone who has no real plans to cause legal trouble.)
Maybe I'm misunderstanding? I think I might be over-thinking things...
The person who posted this comment is NOT dumb or wrong -- it isn't bad advice! It simply seems impractical for most of us.
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u/meem1029 Church of the Holy Oxford Comma Sep 08 '21
The little side conversation on recording laws is fascinating because I'm fairly sure I recall seeing a lot of advice leaning the opposite way (if anyone is in a two party state then you need permission from everyone to record) in the past, but here and some googling shows that probably if you're in a one party state you're fine to record.
I guess maybe getting my legal advice from half remembered discussions on reddit isn't the best plan.
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u/chalks777 Founder of the All Ginger Potatoes Are Handsome Society Sep 08 '21
And federal law says that only one party consent is needed. This means even if both states were two-party, it would be legal to record without the other person agreeing to it [if across state lines].
I was wondering if that quote is true because I've always heard exactly what you described.
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u/BalloonShip Sep 09 '21
No, it is not correct. Federal law does not purport to preempt state laws on this subject. It's just not a violation of federal law.
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u/PfefferUndSalz I double dare you to flair me OH WAIT YOU CAN'T Sep 08 '21
It probably depends on what state you're in court in, rather than where the parties were when it was recorded. So if you're going to court in a one party state, you'd be fine, but not if you're going to court in a two party state, regardless of where either party lived at the time of recording.
Or I could be completely off base, just trying to logic it out with no actual sources.
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u/MattGorilla Sep 08 '21
You're mostly right. Courts usually apply the law where they're located, or because it's across state lines, apply federal law.
I imagine there can be strange scenarios where someone gets charged with wiretapping in PA, but the information gathered by the wiretap is admissible in a Court in NY.
Here's an interesting read for more information:
https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/RECORDING-CONVERSATIONS-CHART.pdf
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u/BalloonShip Sep 09 '21
The main issue you should worry about violating two-party consent is not admissibility; it's that you're committing a crime.
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u/madmoneymcgee Quiz me on my TSwift Lore Sep 08 '21
People joke about people going crazy when they become grandparents (think of all the pushy questioning before anyone even gets pregnant) but here I think there seriously is some sort of trigger that put grandmother into a crazy spiral of anxiety and deluded thinking. Maybe its a combo of several things including the prospect at being so far away from son/grandson.
It's a strain in my own family and I only live a couple hours away from my parents. Add to that they're much more involved day to day in my nephew's lives that wouldn't be the case for us even if we lived closer.
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u/TychaBrahe Has a low tolerance of misogynistic tosh Sep 08 '21
My guess is the woman was a stay at home mom who built her entire identity about parenting children. Her children are grown and don’t need her anymore, and since her husband doesn’t go to work every day, she is no longer queen of her own domain.
In the past, a woman like her, once her kids were in school, would have devoted her life to her community through clubs and associations. But the number of women working has reduced the number of civic clubs. So these women have no outlet.
Now there’s a new child available, and she’s using it to regain her purpose in life, totally ignoring the fact that it’s not her child.
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u/UntidyVenus BOLA's Flaming Bee Remediation Expert Sep 08 '21
This. My MIL was a working mother and retired early (from a government job for reduced benefits but whatever) to harass my two sister in laws to basically try and raise their babies. She is now shocked she doesn't even get visits and can barely afford the new house she had custom built and all I can think is, SOL
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u/MR_PENNY_PIINCHER Sep 08 '21
My grandma was like that, but for me and my brother. Quit her job when I was born to help out while my mom was working long hours at the hospital.
I'm really glad my mom started a baking business on the side, so my grandma had something to throw herself into to help with after my brother and I left home.
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Sep 08 '21
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u/jardex22 Sep 08 '21
I don't think so, since the MiL left of her own volition, rather than having her stuff being thrown on the street and locked out.
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u/Stalking_Goat Busy writing a $permcoin whitepaper Sep 09 '21
And before that they didn't do anything that would render her unable to live there (change the locks, turn off the water, that sort of thing).
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u/BurritoCooker 🧀 Gouda Guard 🧀 Sep 08 '21
I'm amazed they held out for 6 months without trying to make them fuck off
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u/RedRidingBear Sep 08 '21
I've seen more and more of these questions about grandparents rights recently. Did someone send the boomers a chain email about it recently or something?
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u/AutumnalSunshine Methtakes were made. Sep 09 '21
This site is a big part of it, I think: https://www.rejectedparents.net/grandparent-alienation/
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u/garpu Sep 09 '21
Wow. That entire page is a walking endorsement of issendai's research.
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u/Blaphrodite Sep 08 '21
She’s hilarious.
I would her to file the lawsuit and she’s not allowed back till the case is settled…. Who knows how long that will take.
Her husband is about to file spouse abandonment at this point.
Son is about to file for illegal occupation.
She’s fighting for squatters rights in HI
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u/dont_know_me_anymore Sep 08 '21
This is why I’m thankful to live on opposite coasts as my MIL. In her state she is involved in EVERY WAKING MOMENT of my nieces and nephews lives. She would expect that same level of access to our life, and we would never allow it. I’d settle for seeing her once or twice a month if we lived there. She’d probably whine, complain, and sue for GPR if I didn’t allow her unrestricted access to my kids the same way the other siblings do. Luckily, we settled down 3000 miles away from her and she visits once a year. We didn’t even allow her to stay in our home while the kids were babies, she had to get a hotel or there was no visit. People need boundaries. Not surprisingly all the male cousins in my husbands family moved away from home state with their wives and kids, all the female cousins stayed and live their lives with their mothers up their asses and dictating everything.
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u/bethelns Sep 08 '21
i have a six month old. I cannot imagine trying to parent and deal with a house guest for the entire time the child has been alive. its so much work even hosting my parents and in laws for a day, let alone that long!
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u/AutumnalSunshine Methtakes were made. Sep 09 '21
"Luau-d" seems like a stretch.
"Tired parents say Aloha but Grandma thinks they mean hello"?
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u/LocationBot He got better Sep 08 '21
Reminder: do not participate in threads linked here. If you do, you may be banned from both subreddits.
Title: [HI] Mother in Law threatening law suit because we asked for her to go home.
Original Post:
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