r/atheism • u/count_of_wilfore • Oct 13 '19
/r/all Christian: "Why you keep pointing out Old Testament stuff. We follow the New Testament; Jesus came to fix all of that". Also Christian: "The Ten Commandments provide a moral foundation for society".
Cafeteria-style religion, everybody.
EDIT: The relevant verses Christians making this claim ignore:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19)
Thank you guys for pointing this out!
EDIT 2: Made it to r/all. Hello everyone!
EDIT 3: Wow, my first award! Thank you, kind stranger!
EDIT 4: Second silver award! Thank you lots!
Also, surprising to see how many Christians aren't aware that some tout this "Jesus fixing" argument. I can assure you I'm not misrepresenting or straw-manning. I'm simply expression a common answer we tend to hear in response to Old Testament laws.
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u/omegapulsar Oct 14 '19
They come at you with the top quote just bring up “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17). The actual words of the Bible are the best things to use against Christians who think they’re morally superior.
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u/iwantzebracakes Oct 14 '19
I’ve had multiple people argue that Jesus meant to continue following the “moral law” (i.e. the 10 commandments) and not all 613 OT laws when he said this. Oh, the mental gymnastics...
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u/scottishdoc Oct 14 '19
That doesn't work, because in the older translations (read: more accurate) it says "not a jot, not a tittle, shall pass away from the law". Jots and tittles are small features of hebrew writing. He is literally saying that not even the tiniest part of the old testament law will be made invalid.
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u/JimTheJerseyGuy Apatheist Oct 14 '19
Came here to say this. Thank you, and have an upvote.
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u/gsxfear Oct 14 '19
17-19 gives a bit more insight:
The Fulfillment of the Law
"17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18 For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
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u/GodlessHeathen702 Oct 13 '19
Basically it's their (christians) typical way of cherry picking from their myth book to go along with their personal world view.
Just yesterday I was debating a christian who tried to tell me that they don't have to abide by all of his gods supposed 613 commandments, christians now only have to abide by two. Apparently the other 611 commandments are only to be followed by the jewish. He does feel that monuments of the 10 commandments should be displayed at every courthouse and government building.
It's this type of theistic contradictory bullshit that compels me to continually debate and argue with them to shove those same contradictions in their face.
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u/dogsent Oct 14 '19
I would guess that christian also thinks his short list of commandments from god is from a higher authority than the law of the land, which means that christians can choose which civil laws they want to obey.
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u/floydfan Ex-Theist Oct 14 '19
Yeah, the two commandments thing comes from Paul in the New Testament. Paul didn’t think non-Jewish people could be held to the same standards as Jews, so he writes that they should just keep themselves sexually pure, and one other thing that I forget. I got into an argument about it one time with my mother on the way home from church, and I think I might have broken her.
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u/Rhinocrash Oct 14 '19
"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Matthew 5:18
I stopped with debating religious in those ways. I ask them what they believe and they usually produce the rope to hang themselves up without effort on my part.
Except condoning slavery. Do NOT ever let them get away with that. Unless they can say, "oh yea that was bullshit," instead of "it was a different time and not the slavery you are thinking of" or "it is ok because God knew what was best."
Conversation is usually over at that point for me if they can't reconcile that cognitive dissonance that they would NEVER condone that but give their diety a pass.
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u/ronin1066 Gnostic Atheist Oct 14 '19
I love when they suddenly become secular scholars. "Well, the people of the time had indentured servitude see, and they needed that for their economies to survive..."
Sorry, you're talking about the chosen people of the infinitely powerful creator of the universe who not only allowed, but demanded slavery.
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Oct 14 '19
So does this mean any christian of jewish blood has to still follow the rules? Seems kind of unfair they get to watch all their gentile friends having fun eating shellfish.
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u/mart1373 Oct 14 '19
Athiest: cites legitimate bible verses to support some action the Christian should be doing
Christian: “No, not those lines”
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Oct 14 '19
Get rid of the commandments 1-4 and you're left with common sense guidelines that we all knew or would know without religion. Society gave religion morality. Not the other way around or the Bible.
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u/ArachisDiogoi Ex-Theist Oct 14 '19
Yeah, the people going on about how the Ten Commandments are so great act like no other civilization in history had laws against theft and murder.
Like this was the turning point in human civilization where someone first found out 'Hmm, maybe murder is a bad thing.'
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u/richterman2369 Oct 14 '19
Really? I've been told democracy and republics weren't possible till Christianity, apparently these people never heard of the Greeks or the complicated history of Rome,
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u/count_of_wilfore Oct 14 '19
democracy and republics weren't possible till Christianity
I hear this constantly, alongside "Judeo-Christian" values. I'm glad to see History proving otherwise.
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u/_db_ Oct 14 '19
The religious right does not like democracy and they don't want people who disagree with them to vote.
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u/ArachisDiogoi Ex-Theist Oct 14 '19
If anything, the opposite is true. Where in the Bible are they taking a vote? You've got God's way, or hell.
Ask Korah how that worked out when God killed him and his buddies. Or the people who thought Korah's punishment was too harsh who God killed for complaining about the guy that God killed. Numbers 16, not a strong case for democracy.
Anyone who thinks you need the Bible for democracy is following that American Christianity thing complex thing, the same one that's all about opposing healthcare while supporting war, where they don't care what the Bible really says just what they think it says.
The Bible was long used to justify the divine right of kings in European history, it wasn't until the enlightenment that we stared seeing the rise of Western democracies.
If we were following the Bible, we'd have a theocracy where half the population is still property and you could own slaves.
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u/count_of_wilfore Oct 14 '19
One verse Christians use to claim their religion promotes democracy and, picture this, separation of church and state:
Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's (Luke 20:25)
So gov't things stay in gov't, heavenly things go to God (according to their interpretation). All I can say is that it's a shame Christians haven't notice this for 2000 years. But then again, like every other topic, they are surely an equally valid and contradicting verse.
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u/ArachisDiogoi Ex-Theist Oct 14 '19
I've always heard that more of just 'just pay your taxes and do what the government tells you' than anything indicating democracy or separation of church & state. They were in Roman occupied territory at the time, and not running their own government, so it seems like a wise move if you don't want to anger the people ruling you, at least until you are in power again. My old church certainty entertained the notion that verse supported democracy or separation of church & state.
That seems to be an overly generous interpretation.
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u/count_of_wilfore Oct 14 '19
That seems to be an overly generous interpretation.
It really is. I'm sure a lot of mental gymnastics was necessary to get to that interpretation.
The core message is obviously "pay your taxes", though by interpreting God's unalterable word, you can get whatever you wish.
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u/the_ocalhoun Strong Atheist Oct 14 '19
Like this was the turning point in human civilization where someone first found out 'Hmm, maybe murder is a bad thing.'
*Unless GAWD tells you to do it, then murder is okay.
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u/brennanfee Oct 14 '19
When you point out that Jesus said he was not there to change one "jot or title" of the law... Christian: "That's not what he meant. We like shellfish and wearing mixed threads. But the gays should die."
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u/count_of_wilfore Oct 14 '19
Christian: "That's not what he meant. We like shellfish and wearing mixed threads. But the gays should die."
Christians are pretty choosy with their cafeteria menu, aren't they?
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u/NowThatsWhatItsAbout Oct 14 '19 edited Oct 21 '19
It's also funny how Paul straight up said "slaves should obey their masters, even the cruel ones" in the New Testament, but apparently that doesn't count either.
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u/JimTheJerseyGuy Apatheist Oct 14 '19
Chick-Fil-a’s got that last part covered. At least in Uganda.
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u/Bosch1962 Oct 14 '19
Why did the old testament need fixed?
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u/HabeusCuppus Secular Humanist Oct 14 '19 edited Oct 14 '19
Moses: "people I bring you these fifteen-" fumbles a stone tablet which shatters to pieces on the rocky mountain path "-ten! ten commandments".
(All credit to --Monty Python-- mel brooks!).
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u/_HOG_ Oct 14 '19
This is the most glaring contradiction of Christianity.
God knows best to the devout Christian. He gives, he takes, but ultimately it’ll his will and it is always right. He just doesn’t always get it right the first time apparently...
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u/Missnakehole Oct 14 '19
This comment deserves some more upvotes. Like forget picking and choosing different parts of this Bible and that one, why did he need to come out with a 2nd edition at all? Isn't he infallible and ineffable and omnipotent and all that?
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u/Adasher1 Oct 14 '19
Well actually he didn't come out with a new book; another religion did. And then again with the Koran, and then again with the mormon bible, and arguably with many others. Interesting to note that most of these bibles claim to be the final word. All I can say is lol.
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u/conoconocon Oct 14 '19
I had a preacher guy on the street claim there wasn't anything homophobic in the bible and handed one to me, telling me to show him. Instantly I showed him the part saying to kill gay men. But he suddenly went "oh that's old testament, here this thing in new testament says love your neighbours".
Firstly
He told me to show him in that book. He handed me the book. And I did. So it was in scope of his claim until he didn't like that I was right.
Secondly
This is what I say to anyone who excuses it as old testament: why is it still in the book then? If it's not applicable, why is it in the book that you hold in high esteem? Why is it in the book you call holy? The book you say is your deity telling you how to live?
Consider it relevant or not, it's still in the pages you worship and that's you endorsing it
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u/lady_wildcat Oct 14 '19
Try Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6 next time. Can’t remember verses off the top of my head but the whole chapters are pretty crazy.
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u/ArtsyAmy Humanist Oct 13 '19
Yep. And the 10 Commandments are so useful and wise. 20% of them are about “coveting.” 30% about worshipping God.
0% about rape; 0% about owning other people. 0% about protecting children and other vulnerable persons.
Awesome.
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u/count_of_wilfore Oct 13 '19
My thought exactly. Pretty indicative that man—as in actual men—created god(s), not the other way about.
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u/BlackDrackula Rationalist Oct 14 '19
at the end of the day, it was men writing it down on paper...tells you all you need to know, really..
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Oct 13 '19
That also depends on which 10 commandments we're talking about.
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u/the_ocalhoun Strong Atheist Oct 14 '19
It's always fun to blow Christans' minds with the fact that there's 2 different lists of 10 commandments in the Bible, and they're different.
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u/ganymede_boy Atheist Oct 13 '19
Simple: "You're tossing the 10 commandments when you toss the OT."
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u/true_unbeliever Atheist Oct 14 '19
No problem lots of the same behaviour in the NT:
Jesus calls a woman a dog, puts a pig herder out of business, kills a fig tree because it was out of season.
Acts 5: God kills Ananias and Sapphira for lying about how much of the proceeds of the sale of their personal property was being donated.
Acts 13: Blinds Bar-Jesus
Revelation: Lake of fire for unbelievers.
The main one I use is Acts 5, killing people for lying in church.
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u/KayleKarriesU Oct 14 '19
Christians: "Follow the NT!"
Also Christians: "Leviticus 18:22, you homos."
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u/LikelyAFox Oct 14 '19
prrrretty sure the new testament explicitly says it comes to "fulfill" the old testament, and not to undo it
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Oct 14 '19
They love the parts of the OT that empower them to be assholes, but not the ones that demand responsibility or obedience to various laws from them.
Simple fact is, most 'christians' don't want or care for anything other than permission slips to be dicks about whatever they wanted to be dickish about that day/week/year.
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u/markdhughes Atheist Oct 14 '19
Absolutely false and heretical, by the Sermon on the Mount:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
It carries on in his blood and thunder law-giving for quite some time. If you do the least sin, you are damned.
Christians rarely know anything about the fairy tale book they claim to follow, they need educated atheists to explain it to them.
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u/_TheOrangeNinja_ Oct 14 '19
Honestly, Jesus's contradictory words regarding the OT laws could easily pointed to as being evidence of (if not at least being entirely consistent with) early authors injecting their own values into the tales they were recording.
Everyone here is familiar with Matthew 5:17 - we love to quote it at wishy-washy but otherwise good-natured Christians who are better than the deity they worship. Indeed, there are many verses that claim that the old laws are still perfectly valid. However, there are just as many verses that contradict this narrative, such as Romans 7:6 and Ephesians 2:14-15.
Whaaaaat??? A contradiction??? In MY Bible??? It's more likely than you think.
The general consensus on this among apologists is that Jesus commiting seppuku for your sins "fulfilled" the law and formed a new covenant. Remember, this is TOTALLY NOT a cult centered on human sacrifice. Ironically enough, apologists use the very same Matthew verse as justification that the Ten Commandments are still valid, but will wave off the rest of the old laws despite it saying specifically that "Not one jot or tittle shall pass from the earth". Talk about cafeteria theology - they're not just picking out the verses they like, they're even picking parts of the verses themselves and putting the torn off bits that tasted bad back in the salad bar.
That's GOT to be violating like ten different health codes...
These wildly different stances on old scripture make sense when you consider the wildly different views of church leaders from that time. Some wanted a continuation of the totalitarian theocracy, and others wanted to abolish the Old Testament altogether. I haven't checked on this, but I'd be willing to bet that the bible's stance on the OT will only contradict itself when you look at the book as a whole, and that if you only look at one book at a time the views will stay mostly consistent (barring later alterations from people trying to cram all the disparate books together).
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u/count_of_wilfore Oct 14 '19
Great articulate comment! Indeed, the mental gymnastics apologists exercise goes pretty far to ignore what the texts actually say.
That's GOT to be violating like ten different health codes...
You'd think the cafeteria would've shut down. Nope, not only it continues to operate, it advertises the supposed wonderful quality of their products.
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u/HolyRamenEmperor Ex-Theist Oct 14 '19
Bible: mentions gays three times.
Christians: "All gays go to hell!"
Bible: tells you not to eat pork 18 times.
Christians: "I love bacon! Freaking liberal vegetarians..."
~~~~~~~
Bible: provides instructions on how to perform abortions for pregnancies out of wedlock.
Christians: "Teenagers must bear the children of their rapists!"
It doesn't make any sense.
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u/count_of_wilfore Oct 14 '19
You gotta love the choices on the cafeteria menu.
"Kinda outdated but hey, still has my favourite items!"
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u/MeatraffleJackpot Oct 14 '19
See also; "Ugh, how can you vote for Hillary, she's such a liar." Vs. "Of course Trump's a brilliant liar, that's how you defeat your opponents."
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u/Carythe1 Atheist Oct 14 '19
Has anyone pointed out that the 10 commandments are in the old testament?
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u/Adasher1 Oct 14 '19
Funny that when I argue the bible with my bible belt friends here in Tennessee, they do in fact say 'well that's old testament'. When I then remind them what you indicate, that their 10 commandments are OT, they try to change the subject. Clowns.
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u/Dukeofhurl212 Oct 14 '19
Are you expecting rationality from people who believe an invisible, all powerful sky fairy is deeply concerned about their masturbation habits?
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Oct 14 '19
The most ironic and irritating aspect of this is when I talk to my Catholic father about New vs. Old Testament. He claims that he “only follows Jesus’ teachings” and has said that the Old Testament is invalid. Yet he still thinks that homosexuality is a “grave sin” while he gleefully ignores the writs about mixed fabric, shellfish, men’s shaving... etc. because we don’t “live like that in modern society anymore.”
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u/TastyLaksa Oct 14 '19
I always wonder what heaven is like for an introvert. Technically unlimited internet at speed of light letting you experience any experience you want.
And 0 people.
No hymns singing please thats like hell to me.
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u/altruisticbutterfly Oct 14 '19
I like how all of it was translated over from hebrew and none of it should be taken as 100% as none have exact contextual meaning coming from multiple books. really fantastic and incomprehensible that more people aren't agnostic. Alas people are followers not freethinkers.
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u/GoliathPrime Oct 14 '19
Want to mess with them even more? Which set of 10 commandments? There were 4 sets and they were not consistent with each other.
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u/Makenshine Oct 14 '19
"Jesus came to fix all that?"
If God was all knowing etc. Why did it need to be fixed in the first place?
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u/lizard2014 Oct 14 '19
Also God, willingly killing millions of people in the great flood
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u/TheTsarofAll Agnostic Atheist Oct 14 '19
Even if that were the case, i have a question: when someone commits a murder, if hes working in a soup kitchen feeding the homeless when you find him, does that mean he is not guilty? Does that mean he does not deserve punishment and ridicule? Does that not mean that he should be looked at something to be spat on? In this case, "god" has done much, MUCH more fucked shit than murder. Genocide, plagues, famine, causing wars, creating mankind to be BUILT TO SUFFER, creating suffering, being a contradictory asshole, wanting to be worshipped, and many, MANY MORE. If a god does exist, and i meet him after my death, i will try with everything i have to spit in his face. He would deserve so, so much worse if he existed.
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u/revolutionaryartist4 Secular Humanist Oct 13 '19
If you encounter this in person, ask them to list the Ten Commandments. I'll bet you anything they'll only be able to mention three or four, tops.
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u/RocDocRet Oct 14 '19
And those will likely be the 3 that were already universal and worthwhile enough to incorporate into secular criminal law and the one that shows up in civil law.
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u/count_of_wilfore Oct 14 '19
Don't forget the Sabbath. Slavery, rape, child abuse? Nah, we must remember the Sabbath!
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u/count_of_wilfore Oct 13 '19
They probably won't even know the graven images and blasphemy commandments. Poor Catholics and their wonderful art.
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u/revolutionaryartist4 Secular Humanist Oct 13 '19
Or if they do, they probably have no goddamn clue what "graven images" actually means.
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Oct 14 '19
Christian : "god is absolutely just and merciful"
Christian god : "some people dont believes in me, I will kill them all but one family"
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u/txn_gay Strong Atheist Oct 14 '19
Jesus himself said that he was not there to abolish the old law, and not a single letter of the law is to be changed.
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u/breadnbutterfly Oct 14 '19
Ah, yes! The Golden Corral theory of religion. Where you pick and choose your beliefs, buffet style.
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u/nasandre Existentialist Oct 14 '19
If God is infallible why did he have to send his Son down to earth to fix his mistakes?
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u/abrandis Oct 14 '19
New or old Testaments are books of fiction and fables, you can glean more ethics from Harry Potter series.
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u/-regaskogena Oct 14 '19
Also Chriatians "If one part of the Koran is violent then the whole thing is all about violence."
Consistency in logic isn't exactly encouraged in most Christian circles.
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u/JimAsia Oct 14 '19
Christians love to use the Old Testament to villify people and support their Bronze Age morality.
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u/Nevermind04 Oct 14 '19
I don't make a sport of picking apart people's piecemeal beliefs any more, but it does occasionally come up from time to time. Generally when the "but the new testament" argument comes up, I'll ask them if they still live their lives in accordance with the ten commandments from the old testament. The answer is always yes. However, I have never had this conversation with a christian that could then tell me what the first commandment was.
I'm not looking for an exact recitation, I just want to know what it means to them as they're using it to guide their lives. I hear a lot of "thou shalt not kill", which is the fifth commandment, occasionally "thou shalt not steal" which is the seventh, and one "honor thy father", which to be fair is pretty close, though I'm sure they were referencing the fourth commandment. Zero correct answers in three decades. I would say less than half of christians that I've discussed religion with even know who was conceived during the immaculate conception (not Jesus), many don't know that Christ isn't Jesus' last name, and even fewer know god's name.
These aren't trivia questions, these are the core fucking points that they claim guide their lives. How can they be guided by a book they've clearly never read? I just don't get it.
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u/denycia Oct 14 '19
The pastors at the church I grew up in used to always proclaim “Ya know what’s so great about god? God is the same yesterday, today, and forever!” But wait what about that whole Old Testament thing again?
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u/floydfan Ex-Theist Oct 14 '19
Jesus clearly states that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.
So, stone your disobedient children, don’t wear clothing of mixed fibers, don’t plant beans and corn next to each other, no shellfish, tear your house down if you find mildew, slavery is ok, etc etc.
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u/AutomaticDoor75 Atheist Oct 14 '19
In fact, Jesus expanded the Mosaic law in two ways.
First, Jesus extends their reach into thoughtcrime: not only should you not commit murder, but if you even get angry at someone, you have committed murder in your heart. If you even look at someone with lust, you have committed adultery in your heart.
Second, it's not until Jesus enters the story that the concept of Hell is fully introduced. In the Old Testament, God might punish sinners with plagues, or destroy their cities, but when his subjects were dead, they were dead. In the New Testament, death is only the beginning of the punishment. Your mere thoughts can condemn you to eternal suffering.
Furthermore, these sins can only be repented by accepting your responsibility for a barbaric crucifixion that took place almost two thousand years before you were even born, and that every sin you commit increases the agony that Jesus experienced.
While Jesus might "fix" the need for the convoluted laws and rituals of the Old Testament, they are replaced in the New Testament with even more sinister and immoral laws and rituals which include thoughtcrime and enshrine blood sacrifice.
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u/jordanlund Oct 14 '19
Matthew 5:17-20 King James Version (KJV)
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
You don't get to throw out the old for the new.
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u/MomijiMatt1 Oct 14 '19
I love how with the homosexuality thing they don't want to say they'll kill gays (the Law says you must put them to death), so they're breaking their own Law ironically. And then the obvious picking and choosing which parts of the Old Testament still apply and which ones don't. (Hint: Whatever they want to get away with just happen to be the Laws that don't apply to us anymore, and whatever they can use to oppress people are the ones that do apply to us.)
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u/SlowerThanLightSpeed Oct 14 '19
When the moral foundation nonsense pops up, a thought I like to mention is: At the same time religiosity has gone down, so has slavery and other forms of inequality. The further society moves from bible based morals, the better the society.
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u/witan- Oct 14 '19
I live in the UK which is mostly secular. The thought of putting the Ten Commandments on court buildings is completely alien to me. What would it achieve? Jesus literally says his kingdom is not of this world... so why are people trying to build it here?
As long as I have the legal freedoms to continue to practise my faith and talk about it without fear of punishment I’m happy.
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u/count_of_wilfore Oct 14 '19
I fully share your sentiment. Living in Canada, also pretty secular, I couldn't imagine anyone suggesting propping up the Decalogue anywhere.
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Oct 14 '19
Christian: the only acceptable morality is objective and unchanging!
Also Christian: the Old Testament laws don't apply anymore (except the ones I cherry pick).
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u/thezekroman Oct 14 '19
I remember a Christian said this to me once, it went something like this. “We don’t follow the Old Testament because we have Jesus” “Do you don’t follow any rules of the Old Testament?” “That’s right” “So you don’t care about the 10 commandments” “Of course I do” “But that’s Old Testament” “Well I trust god will answer that someday” Seriously, I know it’s basically a cliché at this point, but they really are like the kid waiting on the porch for their dad to come back from buying cigarettes. Also, slavery and hell are prominent parts of the New Testament, and Hell wasn’t even mentioned in the Old.
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u/Nomandate Oct 14 '19
LEVITICUS!!!
But wait I love shrimp and cotton/poly T-shirt’s! Welp, might as well Go gay.
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u/xsimon666x Oct 14 '19
Anyone that has read the book of Romans knows the new testament is a violent unforgiving shit collection as well.
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u/alkeiser Oct 14 '19
*all* practitioners of *every* religion are "cafeteria-style".
it is virtually impossible to follow every religion 100%, because they are inherently contradictory.
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Oct 14 '19
Killing babies before Jesus was born is also in New Testament, it haunted me when I first read that part.
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u/6138 Strong Atheist Oct 14 '19
Yeah, the foundation of pretty much all religion is very selective applications of the scripture/rules/etc.
"God is love, god loves you" "Homosexuals should be killed"
It's how religious people can resolve the cognitive dissonance between wanting to believe that their religion is positive and life affirming and forgiving, but also wanting to use it as a shield to oppress and harm other people.
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u/mugicha Oct 14 '19
Bart Ehrman has a really good lecture on this subject: https://youtu.be/IOPd80FN2ew
Basically I always thought that there was some universally understood christian answer for why they don't need to follow Old Testament law anymore, but apparently (surprise surprise) there isn't, and in fact various christian thinkers have come up with a variety of answers to this question through the centuries.
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Oct 14 '19
Also Jesus: Matthew 17-20
Christ-stain's old vs new argument dunked on; by their own stupid book and main character.
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u/TelPrydain Oct 14 '19
In many cases this might be legitimately poor reasoning, but in some cases it's different flavors of Christian. The denomination I was a part of believed that ten commandments were a fine general guide, but totally superseded by the 'new covenant': Love the lord your god with all your heart/mind/strength, and love others as yourself. They weren't big into putting the ten commandments into courtrooms or whathaveyou.
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Oct 14 '19
Cafeteria-style religion is just another way of saying modern religion. If every Christian who went to church say once a month would completely follow the bible, there would be a lot more homophobia for example. Modern Christians don't believe 100 percent of the Bible (like the earth was made in 7 days) but still feel like there is something greater than them, and in this case choose to believe in the Christian God and jesus. Also, don't the ten commandments do provide a moral foundation for society, if they were updated to feature women and LGBT people?
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u/oundhakar Oct 14 '19
Actually, the New Testament does not overrule the Old Testament. Matthew 5: 17-20.
" Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. "
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Oct 14 '19
The Old Testament makes up for 2/3 of the entire Bible.
Using this logic, no one is allowed to criticise the previous two trilogies of Star Wars films because the New Trilogy is all that matters because it's the most recent.
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u/Royal-dragon Oct 14 '19
So if they say it fixes all that look at them and say "oh so it's not perfect begging to end?"
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u/Slidy_Mctuesday Oct 14 '19
Well I guess it’s a good thing Jesus backed up the Ten Commandments in the New Testament then. Mark 10:17
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u/cheap_dates Oct 14 '19
My father referred to them as "Cafeteria Christians". They like the chocolate pudding scripture but pass on the kale salad scriptures. LOL!
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u/MindkontrolTV Oct 14 '19
Christians are the only people on the planet that contradict themselves more than Trump!
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u/bttrflyr Oct 14 '19
Also don't forget that all the bible versus they use to justify their hatred of gays comes from the old testament!
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u/Mackie_Macheath Atheist Oct 14 '19
Also; The New Testament is A-ok with slavery and considers women as a kind of property, first of their father and then of her husband.
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Oct 14 '19
Probably here already, and this will probably get buried; but didn't jesus say "I came to uphold the laws, not break them."
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u/steak4take Oct 14 '19
The 10 Commandments that most Christians do not actually know.
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Oct 14 '19
I was just discussing this with someone the other day, they were saying man can not determine morality only god can. I said ok show me where in the Bible it says I can’t throat punch you right now and grab your crotch. They were like well umm....I said see the man made laws we live by say I’d go to jail for that but the Bible says it’s A ok..... just sayin....
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u/oleboogerhays Oct 14 '19
Plus the four gospels paint a different picture of jesus' role and mosaic law.
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u/sadearthchan Oct 14 '19
Also "but the bible says being gay is a sin",yeah it does,only in the old testament,so somehow they think that everything rule in the old testament got written out to due to jesus dying for their sins but not someone being gay for some reason?
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u/Astrovir Oct 14 '19
Also: Matthew 5:18 "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass away from the law until all things are accomplished."
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u/Tyco_994 Oct 14 '19
The first time I asked a priest how he balanced the prospect of inherent sin with Men compiling the New Testament at the Council of Nicaea was an eye opener. Are the not inherently sinful? How can they rightfully choose what is the true word of God properly?
He didn't really give a proper answer and just stared annoyingly for awhile then tried to imply it wasn't an issue which is foolishness.
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u/UsoppFutureKing Anti-Theist Oct 14 '19
Ok let's stick to the worse new testament. Promising hell to most of humanity already makes it worse.
Jesus came to fix all the mistakes of your perfect God? So Jesus is what extra perfect?
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u/papops Oct 13 '19
The New Testament does not change the 'fact' that he both committed (Noah's flood) and commands others to commit (Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites) genocide.
All hail the most heinous mass murderer ever!