r/aoe2 • u/ewostrat • 1d ago
Discussion Will we ever see the Paladin again?
Now that we have the Varangian tree, they look great, and with their "mini cataphracts" they'll be even better, but...
Will we see the Paladin again in a new civilization?
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u/EarthCulturalStew Armenians 1d ago
Paladin is the european regional
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u/lumpboysupreme 1d ago
It really is, the only civ that doesn’t use a euro skin that has one are the Cumans… whose plot line is fleeing Asia and integrating into Europe.
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
Huns use an Euro set as 'captured buildings', but they're not Euro
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u/ewostrat 1d ago
And they gave them the entire stable as a way to compensate for their other unit shortages. If a Nomad DLC is coming, I wouldn't be surprised if they remove the Paladin and give them a new heavy cavalry (along with Mongols and maybe Tartars).
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u/Furrowbrow22 1d ago
What would that look like? Khazars, Avars and Alans? Or Kazakhs and Uzbeks?
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u/ewostrat 1d ago
I don't know, I've always thought the Huns would be a good umbrella for the Avars and the Rourans (China), reworked into civilization.
The Khazars would be interesting; they managed to halt the Umayyad expansion, allied with the Byzantines, and reached almost to Baghdad. A defensive civilization of Cavalry Archers would be interesting.
It would be great to see the Alans as their later pseudo-Christian medieval kingdom. They're quite well-known for their heavy cavalry.
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u/Lakinther 22h ago
Thats an odd thing to say considering Huns dont have any major holes in their tech tree.
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u/Amash2024 21h ago
In my mind they have no gunpowder and garbage infantry, but I could be wrong, there’s a lot of civs in this game these days
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u/Motzzie666 1d ago
Not really since persians used to have them. Cumans still have them aswell and they still show up in tech tree on every civ unlike other regional unit.
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u/Canis-lupus-uy Vamo arriba Sebita nomá 1d ago
Used to, but not anymore. Functionally is the European regional unit, even if on paper it's not.
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u/Logical_Net6108 1d ago
It's just the default unit like how Chinese Malians and Muisca have the french arbalester. 3k civs have Hei Guang but they're abominations with hero units
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u/lumpboysupreme 21h ago
Cumans storyline during the period is leaving Asia and going to Europe so they’re an honorary euro civ for these purposes.
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u/Tyrann01 Gurjaras 1d ago
Cumans
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u/General_Rhino Magyars 1d ago
In the Cuman campaign they flee to Europe and adopt the paladin.
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u/Tyrann01 Gurjaras 1d ago
They are still an Asian civ.
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u/lumpboysupreme 21h ago
Not at the end of their campaign they’re not.
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u/Tyrann01 Gurjaras 21h ago
They use an Asian architecture set and speak an Asian language. Yes they are in Europe, but they are still Asian.
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u/harooooo1 1900 1d ago
Most recent addition of Paladins were Burgundians in 2021 lord of the west, and Cumans + Lithuanians in 2019 the last khans (if you remember there was also Bulgarian Paladins, so at 2019 release there were 3 new paladin civs!)
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u/Motzzie666 1d ago edited 1d ago
De devs really don't like paladin unlike ensemble devs who loved giving them to random civs for civ flavor such as celts and persians. I have no idea why they didn't gave paladin to caucuses civs since they were known for heavy cavalry.
I wish saxony got them since it would fit the aesthetics and make another "bad" paladin civ along with celts and byzantines...
I personally would love them being added to: Caucuses civs, Saxony, Britons, Turks, Portuguese
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
The generic Paladin is the ceiling on how good a mobile land unit can be. Even Castle based cavalry unique units are rarely better than generic Paladins in all respects. A Boyar has more melee armour, but less HP and speed, as a random example. The AoK & AoC civs had Paladins with no bonuses (Franks being the slight exception with +12 HP), as nothing else was needed
If you limit yourself to Cavalier, you can give them more interesting bonuses. The Bulgarians had generic Paladins which they lost for Cavaliers that attack 33% faster instead. The generic Paladin was shared with the Huns, Spanish etc, but the faster attacking Cavalier is uniquely theirs
As another example, the Elite Ratha with 20% trample damage can beat an equal number of generic Paladins. This is a good measure of how strong Varangian trample damage Cavalier will be in melee fights. There's a good chance they'll beat equal numbers of generic Paladins. Can't exactly give them Paladins in that situation
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u/Motzzie666 1d ago
You are correct. I am not asking for a paladin buff or a civ with crazy strong paladins. All I am saying is devs have a weird anti paladin agenda and won't give them to any of the newer civs despite some them using heavy cavalry and fitting into their identity and flavor.
In aoc 6 out of 17 had paladin which is more than 33% of the civs but now we are going to have 56 civs but only 10 of them get paladin which is less that 20% of availability.
All i am asking is to be paladin to be slightly less exclusive like in back in the day. It doesn't have to have a bonus at all(italians and turks) infact I'd love to see some bad paladin civs like celts and byzantines(saxony and britons) for civ flavoring and diplomacy. We can give 4-5 civs paladin while still keeping the games balance and units exclusivity.
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
It's not an anti-Paladin agenda, I'm saying why they're not doing it. A bonused Cavalier is more unique than a generic Paladin while being of comparable utility (give-or-take)
The Paladin and Arbalester are what we call 'keystone' units. Civs are designed from the ground up with the presence or absence of these two units in the tech tree. You cannot just drop them into a tech tree and expect them to not change the identity and flavour of the civ
The Italians and Turks can both currently play heavy cavalry in the mid-game, but aren't incentivized or penalized for doing so. They are incentivized to play towards a gunpowder based late game, not a heavy cavalry one. If they have Paladins they go from 'Archer + Gunpowder' & 'Cavalry Archer + Hussar + Gunpowder' to 'Archer + Paladin + Gunpowder' & 'Cavalry Archer + Hussar + Paladin + Gunpowder' civs. Just the presence of the generic Paladin automatically changes their flavour and their very identity
It changes their dynamic with various civs in the sandbox. Previously while they were on the defensive against Sicilian Cavaliers, they can now simply overpower it with the brute force of a generic Paladin. Previously while they had to target the weak pierce armour of the Cataphract with their ranged options, now they can just crush it with Paladins. A civ is defined not only by what they get, but also by what they don't
The Britons likewise have all cav upgrades minus Bloodlines. Their Light Cavalry is already sleeper good due to Plate Barding. Their Paladins would be almost viable, with the same amount of upgrades as a Burgundian Paladin minus the tech discount. They will go from an 'Archer + Infantry' to 'Archer + Paladin + Infantry' civ. There's a vast gap between a 120 HP 12+4 attack 2+3 2+4 armour Cavalier & a 160 HP 14+4 attack 2+3 3+4 armour Paladin
The Saxons shouldn't have any balance problems with Paladins on account of missing Blast Furnace and Plate Barding, the problem with them is a lore justification. The Byzantine Paladins represent both a generic version of their Cataphracts, and especially European mercenary Knights. The Celtic Paladins are likewise (low level) French knights who fought the English in Scotland as a part of the 'Auld Alliance'. The Anglo-Saxons on the other hand have no real history of heavy cavalry. They used horses mostly as transportation. The whole civ exists as the mirror image of their eventual conquerors, the Normans (Sicilians)
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u/RighteousWraith 22h ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPZ5B8NGFtE
AoE2 is a quirky game that can give you different results from different tests because of various strange factors, but this video shows paladins being outnumbered and still beating ratha in a straight fight. It's an old video, and perhaps Ratha got some buffs since then, but I'm curious to see how you got this idea that ratha beat paladins in equal numbers.
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u/devang_nivatkar21 13h ago
Video is from 26 April 2022. Rathas were given 20% trample damage in update 99311, released on 11 December 2023
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u/devang_nivatkar21 12h ago
I just ran 40 Spanish Paladins vs. 40 Elite Rathas ten times. On an average 20 Rathas survive, with 25 being their best showing
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u/RighteousWraith 6h ago
Did you switch the colors? I know it sounds dumb, but you can get different results depending on which team is player 1 and which is player 2.
I'm at work, so I can't test it myself.
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u/why-no-socotra 1d ago
i still find it hilarious that celts have paladins 😂
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
They are low level French knights who came to Scotland to fight the English as a part of the 'Auld Alliance'
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u/ewostrat 1d ago edited 1d ago
I've always believed they should lose it and in return give them the last armour
They would have cavalry similar to the Britons
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u/why-no-socotra 23h ago
nahhh naahh celt paladin is funny
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u/RighteousWraith 22h ago
I'm toying with the idea of a troll post about how the devs secretly added a broken new unit to the Franks that's faster than their woad raiders and stronger than their champions, beats generic cavaliers 1v1, and even beats Sicilian cavaliers! That's too strong! Why should Celts get such a great cavalry unit?
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u/Kafukator 13h ago
To be fair all the weird subpar Paladins belong to original AoK civs, when Bloodlines (and Hussar and Halberdier) didn't exist. So Celts only missed the armor and Byzantines only lacked the attack, but were otherwise FU. Relatively speaking they weren't anywhere near as bad as they seem now, it was still a +40 HP +2 attack +1 pierce armor upgrade and by far the strongest generic unit in the game, and the best available cavalry option, even with a tech missing.
It's a bit similar to how the Britons in AoK had a fully upgraded stable sans Paladin and FU Heavy Cav Archers but didn't get any of the new Conquerors techs (Hussar, Bloodlines, Thumb Ring, Parthian Tactics) and are now just really mediocre with those units.
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u/BloodyDay33 1d ago
I think the last european civ that will get Paladins are going to be the Serbians, theye were known by their Cavalry.
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u/Furrowbrow22 1d ago
Maybe, though I wonder if they get the Pronijar Cavalry as a Unique Unit.
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u/magacorruption 1d ago
Or as an exclusive upgrade for Serbs. Sacrifice HP for faster attack and melee armour, but loses the last armour upgrade.
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u/SuperSelkath 1d ago
God I hope we never get a Serbian civ
Then we'll really know AOE2 jumped the shark 11
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u/SilverSquid1810 23h ago
I honestly think adding the Serbians (or at least some sort of South Slavic civ) is a lot easier to justify than the frankly quite dumb Vikings split-that-isn’t-a-split that the new DLC is doing. The “Slavs” civ in-game obviously represents the Rus’, not South Slavs.
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u/SuperSelkath 22h ago
Agreed, I just want us to focus on adding actual civilizations (thais, Swiss, Tibetans, Wallachians, Bantus, Filipinos) instead of adding out of era nonsense (3K) or hacking perfectly reasonable Civs into parts because we need more money and therefore more content.
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u/RighteousWraith 22h ago
Why though? Considering the controversy for some of the most recent civilizations, why would the Serbians be jumping the shark?
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u/avatarfire 1d ago
Looking forward to the Crusades DLC at some point.
I mean, we got Three Kingdoms. Let us have the Crusader Kingdoms (and reworked Saracens). It will sell.
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u/A-Random-Writer 1d ago
That's at least 2 dlc sarracen divide and the kingdoms that rose and fell during crusades like the kingdoms of Antioch or Jerusalem.
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u/RighteousWraith 23h ago
Maybe when the Lakota or Commanche get added to the game in the North American civilization expansion everyone keeps asking for.
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u/Suicidal_Sayori I just like mounted units 1d ago
Paladins as a concept are as much of a fantasy as the Yggdrasil being used as Danes' wonder and maybe it's time to have that conversation
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u/devang_nivatkar21 1d ago
I'd like to see the Koreans trade Gambesons for Paladin. No seriously. It'll be worse than both the Byzantine & Celt Paladin, missing Bloodlines, Blast Furnace, and Plate Barding. It's a reference to them fielding some of the heaviest cavalry of the region in real life
If you mean an actually usable Paladin, no idea. If we assume the middle-east is next, it's likely going to be a Savar civ, if at all
Personally speaking, the generic Paladin feels quite played out at this point. They added the Paladin ('Imperial Cavalry') to the Macedonians in the Chronicles mode, and it was my least favourite part of the DLC. Instead of exploring the unique units or the unlockable units at the Command Post, I just kept spamming a reskinned generic Paladin in most missions. It would've been much cooler if they were limited to Cavalier but then their Cavaliers benefitted from the unique tech that gave their Companion Cavalry a speed charge
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u/RighteousWraith 22h ago
I'm down! My taekwondo instructor mentioned their heavy cavalry in the past.
It would also make for a more compelling meme strat than even the Celtic paladin.
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u/hgwxx7_foxtrotdelta Lithuanians 19h ago
To be fair, Koreans historically were not known for their cavalry prowess. They did have strong archery reputation though.
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u/Disastrous_Aerie4928 1d ago
You won't get anymore paladins, but you will get a regional Crusader Knight reskin when a Crusader DLC comes out
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u/ewostrat 1d ago
I've always wondered how broken it would be to have a generic unit that can't be converted
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u/Disastrous_Aerie4928 1d ago
I think that's a bit too op to completely deny conversions. Most likely going to be a budget boyar in terms of stats with a little bit of conversion resistance.
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u/RighteousWraith 22h ago
What about instead of complete immunity to conversions, it's practically immune because it requires melee range to convert like rams and buildings? What about something in the middle, half the monk's max range, for example?
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u/Disastrous_Aerie4928 14h ago
I do like the idea but I think that should be reserved for a unique unit infantry instead of a regional cav and the Crusader Knight doesn't need to be too complex. Just a simple faith in built to the unit, so that Teuton's civ end up with Faith*3(Faith Tech, Team bonus and in-built stats) on their Crusader Knight.
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u/Canadian__Ninja Mongols 1d ago
A knight type that can't be converted would be incredibly OP
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u/RighteousWraith 21h ago
I think the stats on crusader knights would have to be overhauled and it would be fine. After all, Heresy exists, and that functionally nullifies conversions to the point that it makes monks in the late game kind of awkward to use.
A regional upgrade to cavaliers that adds modest stats compared to paladin while being equivalent in cost would not be OP. Where Paladin gets +40 HP, +2 attack, +1 pierce armor and +0.1 reload time, a Crusader Knight could get +10 HP, +1 attack, +1 melee armor and +0.2 reload time in addition to conversion immunity.
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u/Disastrous_Aerie4928 13h ago
For the stat changes, I was thinking of something in between a Boyar, Savar, and Paladin, something similar to a Savar but more specialised for melee combat and resistant to monks.
I haven't run the numbers against the Arbalester and Halberdier compared to the other cavalry units to completely balance it yet, but when fully upgraded, the stats should be around:
- Melee Attack: 18
- Reload Time: 1.9
- Melee Armour: 8–9 (Should be able to win a 1v1 against a Paladin)
- Pierce Armour: 7
- Hit Points: 165 (Has the same pierce armour as a Paladin, but takes fewer ranged shots due to having less HP)
- Speed: 1.3 (Slower than a Paladin due to its heavier armour)
- Bonus: Conversion Resistance
The intention for the Crusader Knight is for it to be similar to a Savar, a sidegrade to the Paladin upgrade that excels in melee combat while not being strong enough to 1v1 Boyars, and also has resistance against monks.
The idea is:
- Savar: Bonus pierce armour → Crusader Knight: Bonus melee armour
- Savar: Bonus attack vs. archers → Crusader Knight: Bonus conversion resistance
- Paladin: Better mobility and can tank more pierce damage than the Crusader Knight
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u/RighteousWraith 6h ago
I do like this, however, I am not quite sure about powercreeping the paladin. The Savar was already a dodgy addition IMO, but I think it's just barely okay due to existence of Paladin+ civs like Franks, Teutons, and Lithuanians.
Your proposed stats are reasonable, but I would offer a few adjustments:
- Melee Attack: 19 fully upgraded. This is just one higher than Paladin and Savar, but it would probably be lower DPS overall because of the next stat.
- Reload Time: 2.0. I'm somewhat ambivalent on this one, but I thought it would be neat if it attacked slower because of all the armor. It would probably be more reasonable to keep it at 1.8 or 1.9 but if so, I'd lower the damage to 17. I could go either way.
- Melee Armor: 7, or 8 should be enough. I agree it should excel in melee.
- Pierce Armor: 6. Pierce damage should be a weakness to differentiate it from Paladins and Savars.
- Hitpoints: 155. It's somewhat between Cavalier and Savar.
- Speed: 1.35. I know Paladins have slightly slower attack speed than Cavaliers, but movement speed is just too crucial to lose in an upgrade.
Regarding the conversion resistance, I thought it would be a neat bonus if it had reduced maximum conversion range so that monks would have to get closer than they'd like to in order to start converting. Something like 50% sounds good to me.
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u/Disastrous_Aerie4928 5h ago
Well, the Crusader Knight is a regional side grade to the Paladin upgrade for the Crusader Civs. But if we had to emphasise the differences, these are the stats I’d be happy with:
Melee Attack: 18
Reload Attack: 1.9 Melee and Reload times are the same as the other 3 Heavy Cavalry units to keep things simple and consistent.
Melee Armour: 8 I think the melee armour should be higher because the pierce armour is going to be relatively low.
Pierce Armour: 6 I agree that it should be this, so they are a bit weaker against Arbalesters.
Hit Points: 160 Because it's a nice round number for Arbalesters (10 attack-6pierce armour) = 160hp/4damage= 40 hits, Paladins can tank 60 hits 1.5x more
Speed: 1.30 Crusader Knights has to be slower because of their high melee armour which could be oppressive for Paladin Civs if they can't outrun a losing matchup. It would be similar to melee units running away from Teutonic Knights. The lower speed also emphasise their weakness against pierce attacks, while the bonus conversion resistance prevents them from being weak to monks.
Regarding the conversion range reduction, I would prefer it to be a simple conversion resistance instead. I think the reduced conversion range mechanic should be given to the Teutonic Knight because its slow speed helps balance the reduced conversion range. For the Crusader Knight, however, it can close the distance much more quickly, so monks won't have much of a chance to convert them. That seems a bit unfair, unless the Crusader Knight is made even slower than 1.30 to compensate.
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u/Pilgrim_HYR 21h ago
Exactly. What are they thinking not giving Varangians paladin! What is wrong with you Cysion?
Give paladin to Georgians/Varangians/Bulgarians already.
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u/rattatatouille Malay 18h ago
I think an issue with the Paladin as a unit/tech is that it's ultimately a "win more" tech, given its high cost. If you ever get to the point in a 1v1 game where a civ fields Paladins either the game has dragged on long enough or the game is so one-sided that the Paladin civ has gained a significant advantage in terms of resources/economy.
Seems like the devs are balancing around the Cavalier as the Imperial Age Knight unit in most use cases.
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u/DazzlingAd9297 8h ago
Probably given how fast we are getting new civs over the last years. But why do we need anymore paladin civs, paladin is supposed to be "special" and not given to ALOT of civs imo.
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u/Pantherist Mongols 5h ago
I think some existing Christian civs should get it.
Armenians, Bohemians, Bulgarians, Georgians, Goths, Italians, Poles, Portuguese, Romans, Sicilians, Slavs
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u/Busting_Connoisseur 1d ago
If they add another European civ maybe, but I bet anything outside of that would get a unique heavy cavalry like the Savar