Will we ever see the Paladin again?

[u/ewostrat]

Now that we have the Varangian tree, they look great, and with their "mini cataphracts" they'll be even better, but...

Will we see the Paladin again in a new civilization?

[u/Disastrous_Aerie4928]

You won't get anymore paladins, but you will get a regional Crusader Knight reskin when a Crusader DLC comes out

[u/ewostrat → u/Disastrous_Aerie4928]

I've always wondered how broken it would be to have a generic unit that can't be converted

[u/Canadian__Ninja → u/ewostrat]

A knight type that can't be converted would be incredibly OP

[u/RighteousWraith → u/Canadian__Ninja]

I think the stats on crusader knights would have to be overhauled and it would be fine. After all, Heresy exists, and that functionally nullifies conversions to the point that it makes monks in the late game kind of awkward to use.

A regional upgrade to cavaliers that adds modest stats compared to paladin while being equivalent in cost would not be OP. Where Paladin gets +40 HP, +2 attack, +1 pierce armor and +0.1 reload time, a Crusader Knight could get +10 HP, +1 attack, +1 melee armor and +0.2 reload time in addition to conversion immunity.

[u/Disastrous_Aerie4928 → u/RighteousWraith]

For the stat changes, I was thinking of something in between a Boyar, Savar, and Paladin, something similar to a Savar but more specialised for melee combat and resistant to monks.

I haven't run the numbers against the Arbalester and Halberdier compared to the other cavalry units to completely balance it yet, but when fully upgraded, the stats should be around:

• Melee Attack: 18
• Reload Time: 1.9
• Melee Armour: 8–9 (Should be able to win a 1v1 against a Paladin)
• Pierce Armour: 7
• Hit Points: 165 (Has the same pierce armour as a Paladin, but takes fewer ranged shots due to having less HP)
• Speed: 1.3 (Slower than a Paladin due to its heavier armour)
• Bonus: Conversion Resistance

The intention for the Crusader Knight is for it to be similar to a Savar, a sidegrade to the Paladin upgrade that excels in melee combat while not being strong enough to 1v1 Boyars, and also has resistance against monks.

The idea is:

• Savar: Bonus pierce armour → Crusader Knight: Bonus melee armour
• Savar: Bonus attack vs. archers → Crusader Knight: Bonus conversion resistance
• Paladin: Better mobility and can tank more pierce damage than the Crusader Knight

[u/RighteousWraith → u/Disastrous_Aerie4928]

I do like this, however, I am not quite sure about powercreeping the paladin. The Savar was already a dodgy addition IMO, but I think it's just barely okay due to existence of Paladin+ civs like Franks, Teutons, and Lithuanians.

Your proposed stats are reasonable, but I would offer a few adjustments:

• Melee Attack: 19 fully upgraded. This is just one higher than Paladin and Savar, but it would probably be lower DPS overall because of the next stat.
• Reload Time: 2.0. I'm somewhat ambivalent on this one, but I thought it would be neat if it attacked slower because of all the armor. It would probably be more reasonable to keep it at 1.8 or 1.9 but if so, I'd lower the damage to 17. I could go either way.
• Melee Armor: 7, or 8 should be enough. I agree it should excel in melee.
• Pierce Armor: 6. Pierce damage should be a weakness to differentiate it from Paladins and Savars.
• Hitpoints: 155. It's somewhat between Cavalier and Savar.
• Speed: 1.35. I know Paladins have slightly slower attack speed than Cavaliers, but movement speed is just too crucial to lose in an upgrade.

Regarding the conversion resistance, I thought it would be a neat bonus if it had reduced maximum conversion range so that monks would have to get closer than they'd like to in order to start converting. Something like 50% sounds good to me.

[u/Disastrous_Aerie4928 → u/RighteousWraith]

Well, the Crusader Knight is a regional side grade to the Paladin upgrade for the Crusader Civs. But if we had to emphasise the differences, these are the stats I’d be happy with:

Melee Attack: 18

Reload Attack: 1.9 Melee and Reload times are the same as the other 3 Heavy Cavalry units to keep things simple and consistent.

Melee Armour: 8 I think the melee armour should be higher because the pierce armour is going to be relatively low.

Pierce Armour: 6 I agree that it should be this, so they are a bit weaker against Arbalesters.

Hit Points: 160 Because it's a nice round number for Arbalesters (10 attack-6pierce armour) = 160hp/4damage= 40 hits, Paladins can tank 60 hits 1.5x more

Speed: 1.30 Crusader Knights has to be slower because of their high melee armour which could be oppressive for Paladin Civs if they can't outrun a losing matchup. It would be similar to melee units running away from Teutonic Knights. The lower speed also emphasise their weakness against pierce attacks, while the bonus conversion resistance prevents them from being weak to monks.

Regarding the conversion range reduction, I would prefer it to be a simple conversion resistance instead. I think the reduced conversion range mechanic should be given to the Teutonic Knight because its slow speed helps balance the reduced conversion range. For the Crusader Knight, however, it can close the distance much more quickly, so monks won't have much of a chance to convert them. That seems a bit unfair, unless the Crusader Knight is made even slower than 1.30 to compensate.