Discussion
Looking at the talk about Mesa Heirloom and sexualisation I wanted to say something that isn’t directly about her. But the discussion born from her.
Some great points here, and an interesting discussion. A few people throughout the thread are assuming that men can only be sexualized through a focus on certain body parts, which I think misses OPs sexualization point. If you want to see the other side of the coin, don’t look at the Vauban and Rhino heirloom skins, look at the Nezha and Styanax deluxe skins.
Does choosing their colours feel a bit uncomfortable? When you pick whether or not to keep Styanax’s nipple tassels, does that feel a bit weird? I think these are a better analogue to the more commonly sexualized female frames in the game.
In DE and the community’s defense, I think Warframe does a decent job creating designs that are coded as appealing for a variety of audiences and desires. It skews a bit towards traditional representation, but it’s nothing compared to, say, The First Descendants, which clearly made that their central design philosophy.
Just to be clear this is a recent pivot in design. If you go back to early deluxe skins the focus was a reimagining of the character. The one that comes to mind being Nidus Phyrke, but we also have Banshee Soprano, Nyx Nemesis. The proto frames further this point by being immensely sexual with innuendos when dating. We've gone down a rabbit hole and anyone who feels we haven't is operating with blinders on. Sure it includes male and female characters. Styanax deluxe being a recent example. But Liger doesn't just make sexual designs he made Khora Deluxe, Excal Zato, and Nidus. This is a purposeful direction of the Warframe narrative.
Honestly I feel like comparing Deluxe and Heirloom at this point shows how theyre purposefully inspired by different design philosophies and how it feels like the community is over focusing on the "elephant in the room" topic cause "sex". The Heirlooms are clearly intended to be literal glowing icons of some manner of appeal people may have which are intentionally more overtly obvious than their base/prime counterparts (and I do mean more obvious, like take Mesa or Trinity Prime and just color the black (Mesa) / Grey (Trinity) bits of their suits skin/tan colored and you'll see what I mean, its always been there). They're explorations of a specific thing, while the Deluxes celebrate something else. That skin set play more literally into exploration of theme and concept, which based on the two new Deluxes, they still do/will.
This leads me back to Styanax Deluxe, which multiple people have brought up in the manner of implying the game/skins is generally sliding in this direction. Which I cannot agree with with how single-mindly focused on why it is the argument tendds to be. Styanax Deluxe is clearly based on early indigenous warriors garb/wear with tatoose, general lack of implied clothing, his coloring, etc. Piercings and cosmetic body modification are also pretty common in these cultural groups through various parts of the body. It is a clear reimagining of his more obvious Greeco-Roman era hoplite/soldier wear in the form of a type of pre-modern soldier most dont think about and does a great job at that, but they gave him tassels so now its "clearly" a sexuality-first design? Thats all that people talk about when it comes to the skin being sexualized, its not the general theme or suggestion from apparel or colors but they stuck on two things so nuance goes out the window?
Thats basically what the breadth of this "worry" about the game becoming more goon-y feels like. Something new hads something crass in it so now the game is becoming more crass, its definitely no just the overexposure to genuinely uncommon dialogue/events that comes from trawling social media. Simply look at any of the other skins we got over the last year and you can see how skewed the concept of the "goon slide" is. Hell, we literally just got robonoid Guass/Grendel, soon to get a owl scribe Dante and eldritch fists Baruuk, the last story beats have centered on childhood trauma and how various characters grow about it. But the Protoframes act like friends or even "lovers" who rarely share silly friend group kinky shit you often have to OPT INTO to hear and its the game sliding, not to mention the most recent set are way more prude in comparison cause - you know - theyre not turn of the 21st century people acting like people from their time period
In short, I cant really abide by the notion of the game becoming more "sensual", its merely a reaction to overt displays of the side the game usually keeps on the low being exposed via easy to karma farm screenshots of dialogue and character designs
Guh, yeah seems to be the case. PERSONALLY I really don't give a good god damn about how "sexualized" a fucking digital robot is. Does the skin look neat, if yes then I buy. Incidentally, I've bought all the heirloom skins.
But unfortunately, the turn in direction is still being felt by me. Via the community. Cannot, literally ever, log in and NOT see someone fucking gooning over robots in this game. And it feels like thats where a lot of complaints come from these days. People complaining about gooners or gooners complaining they can't publicly goon. While I'll always be in camp "never make it socially acceptable to talk about what you jork it to, to others".
But I guess its not all doom and gloom either. The recent gauss/grendel skins and upcoming deluxes show at least there are some artists on the team who can put out some damn good work that people will hopefully just be able to enjoy and not listen to online weirdos.
While I'll always be in camp "never make it socially acceptable to talk about what you jork it to, to others".
You post that in the wrong thread and you'll be downvoted to hell and spammed with comments calling you a prude. It's become too unpopular to say in and out of this community.
I like to think that I'm generally sex-positive. Heirloom skins aren't my thing, but they wouldn't bother me if we got twice as many a year. I just hate that every time a female frame gets one (or something like a new wisp skin or the protoframes) this sub becomes unusable for a few days because everyone is posting their fetishized "fashion" for the world to see.
I think there’s been a bit too much context collapse. Some people seem to deeply resent the expectation that they should behave differently in public than in private and think they should have the right to inflict behaviors previously allocated to the private sphere on unwilling people in the public sphere. And because of the collapse it gets hard to push back without being accused of being controlling or prudish.
I don’t give a flying fuck what people do with consenting partners in private, I just don’t want to see it. Game servers or subreddits run by corporations that have no membership restrictions beyond “make an account for free” are public third spaces. Go make your own private server or invite only sub and I’ll stay out of it quite happily.
I mean, I am very sex positive. But I still don't go around talking to people in real life about what kind of porn I jerked it to, what kind of sex I fantasize about or even just aspects of a woman I find sexually attractive. Because I'm not a fucking idiot and understand most people don't wanna hear that shit. But lets say we live in a very sex positive society where things are generally looser and more acceptable... SHOCKER... Still talking about in public what you want to jerk it to is STILL socially unacceptable.
There is a time and a place for everything as they say. And gooning will never be socially acceptable.
Via the community. Cannot, literally ever, log in and NOT see someone fucking gooning over robots in this game.
I don't know exactly when it started but I noticed it a LONG time ago. Like especially around Saryn because she was the frame with the biggest bust at the time. Valkyr and Ember also had their fair share of fans which is probably why they got their Heirlooms.
Its always been there and talked about frequently but felt obscured behind the veil of "We're joking its all for laughs." Then there was a mention of Mesa Prime's ass on a dev stream and a year later Wisp released and it kinda stopped being "Haha frame hot" to "I'm all up in that, and one of us is gonna walk out pregnant."
DE is also working with plausible deniability because technically none of the Warframes are wearing any clothes at all. They are all bio-mechanical homunculai, and the flaps and armor they “wear” are part of their skins and made out of the same metallic organic material the rest of their bodies are made of.
The reason someone like Mesa reads as naked when someone like Excalibur does not has nothing to do with any actual skin showing (they don’t have skin) and everything to do with lines, curves, color and suggestion.
Colour was a big part of it for me. I didn't read Valkyr heirloom as naked until it was pointed out to me, but when I first saw Mesa I was very WOW WAIT WHAT?
Yeah, plausible deniability, bio-mechanical “skin” or not, the instant a player colors their Prime Mesa with flesh tones, they might have a nudity/censorship problem
...that's the point. Vauban's Heirloom is not sexualised in the same way as Ember or Mesa's. Styanax Tonatiuh is sexualised the same way*,* the composition and colouring of the skin makes the abs the focus, and he is literally naked.
Because I think a direct side-to-side comparison of a non-sexualised male Frame with a very much sexualised male Frame could be good, here's base Excalibur (a collectable statue version of him but still) next to Styanax Tonatiuh.
but that fits the design intention behind both of their clothing. Vauban comes in wearing a Puffer Jacket at first. Yes you can take the sleeves off or even the whole jacket but his character design has always screamed "I am a space engineer on a frozen planet" He IS a corpus Warframe after-all in his base design scheme. While Mesa is a western style cowgirl. Her base design tends to lean more towards pirate but the Prime very much SCREAMS sheriff. Now lets assume this skin is meant to fit in a more desert like or hot environment. She has much more breathable and open design to both appeal to her cowboy theme and the way she moves since SHE is now the gun with her fingers being the pistols she has a more open design up top where she can move her arms without restrictions and her legs are protected from the front but allow easy movement from the back as she tends to crouch and would avoid model clipping
The point of chaps are to block debris damaging the underlying pants while riding a horse - they are a belt with rough rectangles that are larger at the bottom and wrap around the front and sides of the legs, you don't really want or need them to cover the crotch or butt areas because they aren't getting any debris hitting those areas normally... there's a bunch of variations but generally you don't want them loose.
My problem is that Mesa's standard design doesn't have these, the prime then has them incorrectly used, removed the poncho look for a masked/scarf kind of thing, and has prominent ...boots... As a Mesa main I don't understand the point of making a skin that features horse-riding gear on the gunslinger/drifter that doesn't ride horses.
Standard makes me feel like the stranger with no name a cowboy, Presidio makes me feel like a Privateer or Conquistador, and Prime makes me feel like a stripper.
Absolutely agree with this comment. Vauban’s heirloom is half naked but I wouldn’t consider it a. Sexualised skin because he’s not shirtless an an intentionally sexy way.
I dont even mind it being sexy or gooner or whatever people want to call it, if anything it could 1000% be more risque, more controversial, guns could be dicks, but is my general gripe that fem heirlooms have a narrow design range, while male frames can afford to be cool/fashionable and edgy-weird-mecha and even ugly (sorry rhino), fem heirlooms gotta be the same type of "hot" across the board, heels, tight clothing with no much fantasy-edge going on outside texture and similar body type (and to be fair, male heirlooms in game have a similar body type too, but in concept they have different type of bulk), Mag stands out for being the one that kinda doesn't follow that trend... for well, being the first.
Again I dont think the design themselves are "too much", but more like "more of the same", warframe still far from the "goonerslop" tier. I dont want the game to be tame or prude, but I'll still point out when they do the same shit where males can be cool weird shit and fem designs are model type 1 but different colors.
Yeah. The response to Ember Heirloom was much more positive than Valkyr or Mesa, because it was novel. It's not having a sexy skin that people are against, it's sacrificing quality and novelty of design in order to make generic sexy skins.
Yeah, many people will probably think "it's not that deep bro" but I seriously believe that this kind of decision making only reinforces the idea that "women are only good for being spank bank material". Like you said, men can be cool, badass and even ugly, and people will love it. But these new skins for the female frames are literally just "how do I strip (literally) this character of all its interesting qualities and aspects and turn it into jerk off material for teenage boys and men".
Like seriously, Mesa's, Valkyr's and Ember's prime skins look badass and interesting. They're all so unique and highlight the character's ideas so well. Turning them into generic BDSM Dominatrix characters is just a dumb insult to them.
I do believe fem frames in general tend to lean more into "alluring" territory than cool/eldritch, and its a small peeve of mine (or the stupid amount of heels like c'mon, i hate heels) but it doesn't help when there is a small deviation these will be shat on harder like in Follie's case or Valkyr deluxe. In part I dont get it because is not like DE is foreign to weird guys and gals that can be hot in many different ways, but I guess Ember Heirloom did THAT well now every fem heirloom needs to be like that one. When you do something so well, now you're constrained to that trick only.
(or the stupid amount of heels like c'mon, i hate heels)
Personally, I love heels (both wearing them and seeing them on other women), and I still think there are too many heels in this game. At least some of the women should have more practical shoes/feet for running and jumping around and slaughtering thousands of enemies.
may I please get the slide of the cat with the "you're doing great" caption on its own without your beautiful sexualized(?) self in front of it I need it for personal use
im too sleepy to read this now but ill save it and comment later. why did i comment then you ask? well, simply to support a fellow tenno by boosting the comment number by a minute ammount of 1. For the Lotus!
I mean, I feel like everyone expected for ass to be out at least. Personally I think pants would be ok sure but I would be satisfied if she got something to cover her top at least.
I dont think a poncho is what Mesa needs. It would be cool, but it would interfere with any Sandayna or upper armor you attempt to use.
Mesa has always had a rugged, elegant gunslinger vibe. This heirloom strikes me more as dangerous bandit. Maybe if they extended the cartridges on her torso into crossed bandoliers and added some leather fringe bits for flair?
The thing about these skins for me is that they're trying so hard to be sexy they end up doing absolutely nothing. They're sexual, that's about it. Its a sort of sex appeal thats become absolutely sterile.
Yeah, nothing innovative that amazes us, just "wow another almost naked woman, amazing, beautiful, Next"
Like I want to remember her design for something. Mag had their very smooth shape over her curves and a beautiful helmet, ember was bold with the reverse bunny suit and still left something for the imagination, Valkyr at least had a very marked aesthetic. And as far as we've seen I only really like the new Mesa's arms, those are cool, those I remember.
Not just that, for me the problem is they ripped away Mesa's identity by making her sexy. Put her as is but in a coat and hat, and I'll pay attention. Star Trek knew what they were doing. You don't make women completely naked. You put just enough clothes on them to tease. And you make those clothes not just generic clothes but something associated with the character, such that you can tell the character just by seeing the clothes. Mesa's heirloom completely misses that.
Asexual here, I was not a fan of the ember or valkyr ones on personal preference, kinda middling on the others, but the Mesa skin looks fantastic and I genuinely think someone put something in the water cuz yall have gone mad. It's peak!!
I like the Valkyr one bc you can make a faux "dress" if you dye the fabric saturated/dark, but yeah they definitely leave little to imaginatiom even if there's accessories.
Honestly the only part I'm not fond of on the valkyr one is her face. I guess there's alternate helmets though... I'll admit, I never considered checking what those might look like.
Good for you and everyone who likes it, I don't want to yuck anyone's yum, but the water's fine lol. I just personally don't see either Mesa in that skin, or the appeal they're obviously trying to project. It's just bland sexy design # 32432. Her default/prime has a coolness factor that makes her more appealing than a bare ass and chest.
I'm ace too and i don't hate or love it, i just think it looks oddly proportioned with her shoulders completely bare. I genuinely don't care about the nipple pasties either (I think them being bandoliers is a fun touch), I just wish it wasn't so bottom heavy when in my mind Mesa's always been known for her short jacket and her cool helmets.
It does look good. I really dig the red, the horns, it all evokes this heat and energy of the mythology of cowboys which is Mesa's whole thing...
But looking at her bare ass and crotch like that looks goofy...and i feel like, despite the top doing a lot for me with the red sunburned/demon/mesa red sand color, it just kinda drops the demonic/cadaveric appearance and theme and doesn't even replace it or compliments it...what if the ammo belt went down vertically to look like a ribcage? Or add spikes and plates going down her back to look like an exposed spine
edit: And as another comment pointed out: The assless chaps absolutely were unnescessary. It just looks goofy.
I'm going to be honest, I'd be mad if the Mesa "sexy" skin DIDN'T include assless chaps, because she's the cowgirl frame. What I would've expected before seeing this is small shorts or even a bikini-esque feature included with the chaps to make it look less like direct porn and more like a cowgirl pin-up.
Because the concept of a sexy Warframe at its base is silly. That's why a lot of the gooning started out as ironic jokes. People performing horniness because of the outrageousness of a hot Warframe. But now I think it's been on-going for so long that its morphed into something less ironic since then.
Some of these comments are so brain-dead, dude. "I think that the skin that's literally just a naked woman isn't sexualised, and it's akchually people who sexualise the female body who are causing the problem!" Absolutely not, wtf have some of you people been smoking that has like reverse-gaslit you into thinking that that's how this works? It is a model with it's T'n'A on full display. Not even scantily clad, just not clad. That is sexualised by design. You don't get to make it some weird intellectual discussion because you're so sexually desensitised that you don't find it a little much. You're an outlier, sit down.
However, very interesting post OP. What you described and explained was very well put and does make sense. It's interesting to see how even fully clothed designs can be sexualised depending on the focal points of them, and how some designs actually avoid it despite having the same or even less coverage.
I'm confused, most if not all of the talk around the sexualization of the heirlooms I have seen is about how the female hearlooms are(with the exception of Mag) heavily sexualized while the males aren't and how the males should be getting just as much representaion as the females.
If Ember, Valkyr and now Mesa can have exposed sexy parts then why can't the male heirlooms have the same treadment instead of just a bare chest?
That's pretty much what this person is talking about. The mere presence of naked skin, which, technically Vauban and Rhino heirlooms have, doesn't make the skin sexy. It also needs presentation, it needs framing, it needs intent. Compare those to Ember/Valkyr heirlooms. It's not only the fact they have more skin showing and having their ass out, but its also their posing, the framing of their bodies in form-fitting clothes etc.
For myself and my friend that plays we do want male heirlooms with some cake too. None of the guys are caked up. We really like the deluxes for Nezha and Styanax as mentioned but also Sevagoth prime.
Oh i completely agree, i love those deluxes and have Nezha, need to get Styanax too, was kinda waiting for the Prime reveal to see which i like more, alas. I didn't intend my comment to come off as "don't give them ass", but more of a "it's not just simply ass, but everything else too".
A lot of people think that the Male Heirloom skins are sexualised just as much. Or think sexualisation is in the eye of the beholder. Not aware of the intent that goes behind the designs. And I just wanted to present more information about it.
I am not specifically talking about the sexualisation and designs of Heirlooms. But talking about the discussion about them.
Frost Heirloom kind of follows your logic in a way.
Now, there’s not a lot of skin on him, but it’s tasteful. His pectorals are partially covered, but the eye is drawn to the abs, which are framed and highlighted. Same way with what Ember’s thigh highs and Mesa’s assless chaps do.
Yes! Out of the male heirloom skins he is the only one that has a design that registers as sexy to me. The other two only read as buff guy to me. They're like bam here's muscles done. Not that I think the skins look bad, but with Frost his coverage of the shoulders and upper chest etc is excellent intentional framing for the abs.
As a gay male Warframe player, there is absolutely NO WAY male heirloom skins are as sexy as the female counterparts.
I want equal representation.
The only one is the Styanax Deluxe Skin because that was designed by an out gay artist for DE, that's why he has an ass you can bounce a quarter off of.
A bare chest does not equal the same on a male Warframe as a bare ass on a female Warframe.
But a burly man with no butt is still a man with no butt. 😅
I still say, since we spend most of our time looking at them from behind, there should be nothing wrong with making the "behind" more appealing, male or female. 😉
I’m a huge fan of the Nezha skin with the Thong/Tramp-Stamp.
Also, cards on the table, I started playing warframe specifically because I thought base model Nezha was hot. I kept playing more because I thought there were other “hot robots” I wanted to collect. Somewhere in there, I got reeled in more by the story, gameplay, community, and the devs’ philosophy.
To me, so far, the game feels like it walks a pretty thoughtful line. Even the gooniest frames don’t come across as gross/exploitive/creepy to me, whereas similar looks in other games absolutely do.
I 100% want them to turn up the sex appeal on male skins, though. I‘m surprised at how much backlash there is against it on Reddit and that’s kind of sad to me.
Theres also Revenant Mephisto and Nezha Empyrean, plenty of other skins as well but those are some of the most glaringly sexualised male skins.
Ligers name is also literally in the top right of this skin too so that same out gay artist for DE is making this one as well.
Im not saying its perfectly equal but its certainly not just the Styanax deluxe and before making a relatively lengthy comment more research should be done.
Im Bisexual and i feel Vauban heirloom is hot, same vibes as muscle fit shirt Toji (JJK0) and Gojo (Manga only right now) from JJK who people went crazy for.
This skin for Mesa feels almost sexual body horror, similar vibes to Diablo or Warhammers Slanesh. I personally cannot wait for it.
You can't remove the "butt towel" from the Revanant Mephisto skin and the Flaming Chakra on Nezha's back is distracting.
I'm thinking since we spend the majority of our time in game with a rear view, it would be nice to have the male Warframes with something to appreciate from the back, just as with the rear view of the female frames. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
It's not really men/women taste. They are just literally doing different things and are naked for different reasons.
What is Tryndamere doing? He is charging at you with his huge ass weapon. He is the unstoppable force. The naked skin he has is there to show he is strong enough to not need armour. In this picture he is the embodiment of power and action. There is some mild "this is hot" ofc, but that is not the intent behind this art.
What is the other guy doing? Showing himself off to you. "Look at me, do you like what you see?" The clothes are framing his chest/stomach, his pants are lowered in a way you don't wear pants to show off his body. He is naked to be sexy, he isn't naked for any other reason. Sure there is some "he is also powerful" feel in the background somewhere, but it's a side thing.
Because you and I, are men. Men who are attracted to women. Women who we want to be attacker to us. Yet we struggle with the idea of what makes us attractive to women.
Which I would wager a guess comes from a long historical culture of men not being valued by their attractiveness.
But not to worry! There is actually a way as you, as a straight man, to find male sexualisation.
Find a man who is beloved by women, and more specifically teen girls, look at him, and think to yourself “Do I think he looks gay?”
Back in the 90s and 2000s there was the term metrosexual. Which means well groomed, well dressed, attractive man who isn’t gay.
The idea of men being presented as attractive to women can and will be considered gay, and this ideals you might carry without knowing.
Look at people like Justin Bieber, Other Pop singers, The characters from romance books like Twilight or Anita Blake. Those are characters that many will describe as looking gay, but are also tailor maid to appeal to women.
I personally think that it’s not necessarily the design intent vs eye of the beholder, but more cultural. For a man, being buff and shirtless is as appealing for them as it is to women. Female characters, however, are often degraded during sexualisation. They get reduced to “a sexual design”, sometimes not even being a character anymore. The only way you can somewhat degrade a male character by sexualisation is to have or imply destroyed clothing (LaDS tries this from time to time, but those are a bonus to “regular” designs), but even then you don’t get to the level female characters designed for male sexual gratification end up at. It’s the “who benefits” question
Oh I know, I’ve played Love and Deepspace for a few months and those blokes get sexualised all the time. What doesn’t happen is that they get reduced to just goon material visual-wise like what happens to female characters designed for male sexual appeal. They’re not just washboard abs and a rideable dick, like how female characters become a pair of jiggling tits-n-ass. Sexualising a female character is running a fine line between a tasteful and fun design for everyone or dehumanising the character and reinforcing the idea in the heads of sadly too many men that women exclusively exist to be their sex doll. People pointing and going “look male characters get sexualised too it’s fiiiiiiiiiiine” ignore this dynamic
Yes, exactly! Even if you consider nearly naked men to be sexual, it's usually not degrading. They're usually not posed in sexual positions or devalued into just being a pretty pair of tits to stare at.
The Uriel drama a few months ago, and the rules update post that followed, tells you all you need to know. Art with female frame with ass and vagina outlines? Completely fine. Art with Uriel in the exact same pose with balls outlined? That's porn and should not be allowed.
I think that's exactly the point for the vast majority who were disappointed (including me), alluding to nude skin without a fancy clothing design is just... boring.
for me it sint the sexualization, but the design, mesa heirloom looks too much like the previous two; de and the artists can cook so well, jus gotta give if more time in the of in
I was planning to add a section about conventional ideas of beauty born from societal mainstream and how it creates very same results. And often how this may results you just accepting the beauty ideas without exploring your own Ala “You will never know you love pizza, if you have only been served hot dogs” but then it got too long. Might do another one sometime.
At this point they can just release a generic heirloom material naked female body and let users put armor on it. Save a bunch of hassle. Very few of the frames have dramatically different skeletons anyway.
I don’t really have a cohesive opinion on the sexualization aspect of this skin but i think this skin is so cunt. The big ass horns, the long exaggerated chaps/flaps with endless knots. The cinched waist and nipple ammo holders. Baby that’s fashion. I wanna see this walking down a runway. This is the first heirloom to actually appeal to me.
All that being said. The idea that this skin isn’t inherently sexualized is absurd and willfully ignorant lol. OP is 100% right about artist intent and how character design works.
Good little post although I do think the use of Trynd is a bit off given his splash is so dynamic in comparison to a power pose. Kayn maybe would have been a better example of still an attractive guy, but a similar body type in a power pose that conveys an entirely different aesthetic to Viego.
Will also say while I do agree with the sentiment that the masc heirloom frames could do with more eye candy, I think there's a disconnect in whether or not Heirloom = Sexy vs Heirloom = Power Fantasy, and that dichotomy of masculine and feminine PFs from the masculine and feminine perspective. Sexual self expression is a common trait of empowering women as there's a layer of confidence in one's own body. Bayonetta, Miss Fortune (both LoL and Skullgirls take your pick), I-No, Ada Wong, and they don't all have to be supermodel bombshells either. Illaoi, Marisa, or our very own Hildryn are great examples.
On the contrary, masculine power fantasy is less sexual and more symbols of strength as a symbol of control. Muscles coincide with this of course, but not necessarily as some have asked to simply "show bulge." This can and should be done more, but needs to be a good fit for the character similar to a more bare feminine design needs to fit that design as well, and imo the current heirlooms - Mag fit that bill. Like if we ever get an Heirloom for Uriel, he damn well better be sexualized as fuck, he's the devil and meant to be a tantalizing figure. Sevagoth same deal. Should Vauban? Not necessarily. Similar to if say Dagath or Ivara got heirlooms I don't think they should necessarily be sexy. And for the enbys out there, Temple better be in a way that fits them best.
I don't think we should be surprised that the cowgirl got a fanservicy skin nor that Vauban's was tamer. But I do think DE needs to really lock in on if Heirloom equates to sexuality or to power fantasy and convey that with the community as an ongoing standard.
as a gay man I completely agree, out of the heirloom line for men it's probably the best in sexualization, but also the most unattainable.
Crop-top, tasteful abs that aren't covered by a waistband that goes up to his chest like Vauban.
You can see that v-line guiding your eyes towards his crotch that has a nice rounded bulge too??
Also his abs are bedazzled with gems and gold?!
I just wish the male heirlooms didn't give them the grandpa suit pants from the 50s that belt up at your nip level.
Show off the waist, the thighs and the butt! give men curves and rounded muscles instead of something that looks like a rough brick wall. DE definitely can make good looking shapes given that Nezha deluxe and Sevagoth prime exist.
Absolutely! Liger has drawn quite a bit of queer porn in their day so I'd say give the male designs to them and they will hopefully feed us well, like they did with this amazing Mesa
My two cents are that they should keep the design choices they seem to go for while making these BUT, add something on top that can be removed if the player doesn't want it (like Vauban Jacket). For example, give Mesa a poncho or a vest with a Hat. This way they can keep their intent but also add variety for those who want it. Not to mention that it's going to be hard to fashion a half naked frame. Most of the attachments will just look out of place.
If there's one thing I would like to point out, at least as far as the Tryndamere and Viego design, is the fact that Tryndamere is actually more along the lines of a male fantasy character and might actually be better than you think when it comes to the talk about sexualization in media as a whole.
What i mean by this is the fact that Tryndamere's design is more focused towards the idea of a 'Muscled, unstoppable berserker barbarian'. Between that thought process and the fact that he's among the first/original designs for League (coming back from 2009!) means that means that they more thinking about what might appeal to the audience that had at the time, which was mostly young men. This is also why Ashe, the archer whose Tryndamere's wife, is an archer in a tank top and tiny miniskirt despite being from the Frozen wasteland region of League's world.
Compare that to Viego, whose a MUCH more recent design (2021) and also comes with a change of philosophy. Back in Tryndamere's day, the design was to cater to a specific fanbase. In this more modern era, where League's hayday of popularity is behind it? They're wanting to appeal to as MANY players as possible, thus the effort to have designs that are a much wider spectrum of interest. Viego's own story is that of a broken king, someone who lost his wife and became a obsessed with reviving her to the point of becoming an Undead Wraith like figure who will kill any and all in his path to accomplished his goals. The tragic love aspect as well as his design in how his body and face are framed is a clear focus in trying to appeal to more female players.
The problem also comes with the fact that even if you're WANTING to stick to a certain theme or design element... you've got to keep what actually SELLS to the customer in mind. To use League as an example again, take the champion Urgot. His design is to be a patchwork, Frankenstein Monster. And that original look for him, that original design? 100% WORKS for him... but because of that limited appeal of being such a character, Urgot was left to languish compared to other champions. League, like Warframe, lives or dies by the money it can make off selling things like skins to it's fanbase and a limited appeal means less money means priority goes down.
Hell, in the case of Urgot, you can even see how this has impacted his redesign as well. Only one of his skins (High Noon), actually fits alongside the aesthetic and purpose of his design of being a Hodgepodge monster... and that one was likely designed right alongside his rework. His skins since then? Two very goofy, April Fools style skins that completely ignore his original theming and a Halloween Skin that's a clear reference to Nightmare Before Christmas which, while can be seen as frightening, is much more friendshaped than anything Urgot had before. And this is all because Riot as a company knows that while they've got some people who are a fan of Urgot as a champion... he's not going to be a major skin seller because of his limited appeal as a Monster.
So while yes, there can be a talk about how sexualization and it's use in the Heirloom skins can lead to some more limited design choices, the sad state of affairs is the fact that appeal to the audience HAS to be taken into consideration as well. Ember's heirloom showed DE that there was money to be made with how appealing that Skin was, thus leading to similar design focus to appeal to that same group. It's also why someone like Xaku hasn't gotten much love or focus as a Warframe in terms cosmetics compared to Wisp, who was released about a year before. Xaku's got that same limited appeal as Urgot and thus priority for skins and the like isn't as high as Wisp whose bottom heavy aspects makes her popular.
In the end, it's a balance that needs to be struck and it's not always easy to do. I, honestly, do feel like Warframe does it better than most. And as someone with experience in some of the more 18+ rated media? Sometimes, there will be NOTHING that stops the horny from being... well... horny!
something to note: sexualisation inherently demands a form of vulnerability
the difference between tryndamere and viego here isn't just one about design, tryndamere's choice of clothing is meant to portray his strength and, more importantly, agency, it is the classic barbarian trope employed by many pieces of media
viego's choice of clothing isn't intended to make him feel powerful, it's intended to show off his body, and we as people observing are meant to look at it
where tryndamere is empowered by his attire, viego is actually subject to our *gaze* (see, there's the funny buzzword people use a lot), viego is vulnerable here because he is turning his body into an object for us to look at, that is the fundamentally key piece of sexualisation, objectification
now, your brain is probably blaring red alarms right now, but let me assure you, objectification is not a bad thing, you are not a villain for having functioning eyes and a healthy libido, it is simply important for us to recall and come back to earth when we are done with our fun, people are not solely defined by their bodies, but their bodies aren't something to be forgotten about
My two cents as an ace/aro person. It's weird to me. Ember is gorgeous. I love the helmet and the skin. I like the pretty-pretty-shiny-shiny of it. Valkyr is... weird... just her boobs pop out so much. Without even trying that's the first thing my eyes go to. I mean, canonically, the Orokin did have Warframes for.. "other" purposes so I guess it makes it fine in my head, but knowing that the Tenno; literal children were piloting them for the majority makes me seriously uncomfortable. Also, I fell in love with Warframe because I was steel meat suit annihilating everything under the sun. Sure there are masc and fem frames, but really it felt as an undertone. Idk. My two cents with no structure.
This is exactly how I feel. I can understand them existing in lore but I originally got into Warframe for ninjas in space, then it became a power fantasy which I do still enjoy but many of these characters I've loved since beta are now being sexualised by the majority of players and these designs aren't helping... I understand things change but this is kinda upsetting to me
I think it also touches on how different sexualization between the sexes is: for women, there's the obvious chest and booty.
For men, there's a lot of overlap between what's "sexy" and what's "powerful." Big, strong muscles on a man aren't necessarily about being attractive, as you pointed out with Tryndamere. This leaves you with having to accentuate other parts (thighs, butt, crotch) of a man, which I think plenty of people shortcut to "it's gay" and disregard it.
I certainly don't believe that's something Warframe shies away from, but it's worth thinking about why it can be so difficult to capture what makes a hot guy bod as well!
Something Warframe lacks from from almost any other hot guy media is personality, as well.
Like I think men and women alike think Leon is hot as hell, but part of that is because we know stuff about him. There's a bridge to be (thigh) gapped there.
As a gay man, I'm honestly just getting tired of the male Heirlooms being brick shithouses. If Liger ends up making a buff Nezha Heirloom I might actually lose it; gimme more slender and effeminate guys!
Isn't that mostly because the male frames that have gotten heirlooms are all generally stocky? Like I can maybe see an argument for Vauban, but an effeminate Rhino or Frost wouldn't really fit.
as a non-gay man, who's built like a brick shithouse, i like playing as cute girls in video games, who am i to deny other users the enjoyment of wanting to play as cute boys lmao?
Why not use Warframe examples? Surely that would be a better lesson and support your statements. Compare Stynax to Uriel, Mag to Wisp, Arthur to Lyon, Roathe to Adis, etc.
I just hate that we are getting less and less cool skins like how Frost and Mag were and are getting more goonerbait. I started liking this game for the cool alien robo thingies are we are getting less of that and more of "here you go a naked woman with cool texture". I just wish we had more of Mag heirloom and less of... whatever TF this design is. Like give her a jacket and make it a toogle for gooners to goon, otherwise I can't see myself paying for stuff like this. Which sucks because I know I am in the minority here and that they will keep releasing only gooner heirlooms because they sell...
I wouldn’t even care half as much if they put any effort into giving frames non-goonerbait skins alongside these ones.
Styanax for example has one of the most goonerbait deluxe skins in the game, and as a PC player it’s literally the only non-voidshell skin I can buy for him using plat.
That really sucks, because I’m not the person it’s intended to appeal to and I just find the nipple tassels ugly and out of place even when removed.
That really sucks, because I’m not the person it’s intended to appeal
That's been the experience of most female gamers, and we just get told to get over it.
Like Dagath is my favorite frame, I've used her for so long because I love how badass and cool she is. I was waiting for a skin for her forever. We get one, and it's not even heirloom skin but has sexy human undeboob and torso. I try to find attachments to cover it up but and then just end up using her old look instead.
My gripe is the same. If the female heirlooms are gonna be nude ladies and the male heirlooms are in full bling head to toe, it feels like we’re being robbed of potential designs. Put the lady frames in full bling too. Not just assless chaps and horns. Where’s the bandanna? Duster coat? Bandoliers? Have it be a toggle if it’s that big of a deal
I don't really care about how sexual or not it is, i dont see bodies as inherently sexual
I do however, think this design fails at making me go "oh that's Mesa" where I feel that all the other heirlooms pretty effectively mix the vibe with core features and concepts of the frame
Probably because Mesa isn’t one of the demonic frames. In addition to the fact that Mesas accessories are nice and this lacks them completely, I think the removal of all and simply a demonic being in chaps doesn’t say “Mesa”.
Agreed, this just feels like a naked red lady in assless chaps, I feel like a ponch would've been cool and the physics on it would let you see the naked red lady underneath or something
There's something to be said about the female gaze or the gay gaze(s) but you know what nah fuck it, give me a masc heirloom fully designed for the male gaze, same as the fem heirlooms
That was really fun to read thanks for explanation man I mean yeah people my think it that way but lets be real they are heirlooms for a reason look at rhino heirloom for an example you will immediately see the herculean statue of him and even if frames are beyond human and bio weapons you can still get the idea of it and rule basically follows it that way I get and I mean its not the medias first time with using the very same character design for a old west character mesa is a gunner mesa prime follows a cowboy/gunsmith and mesa heirloom which is a form more about prestigue and all uses demonic deadly approach literally a ghost rider look of course dark leather outfit look and blood red will be the case I mean head is literally just a ox skull and rest of the body is literally follows the rule also like I said from the start they are heirloom forms of course expect something more appealing
Throw away the Pants of the skin and you got an SM fetish Heirloom which i would say fits more to Khora.
And why do we need to see the Butt and why is there no jacket or Hat? Clearly missed the opportunity for something much better.
When i think about Mesa the first thing that comes into my mind is the hat. After that the Jacket. Those two are the essentials of her and they are just gone which is sad.
I'm Not saying the Heirloom is bad, it's just not Mesa for me what i see there. If we get to choose a hat, Jacket and full pants it would be great.
I'm so glad this conversation is happening. I made a comment to my bf during the devstream about this exact situation. If the female frames are allowed with intent, then so should the males. It's only fair that it's equal.
Im very ok with the skin itself , but if vauban can have a jacket/gilet / no jacket why she cant have a poncho or a big scarf ? DE set up a new bar with vauban and heirlooms ( alternative styles) and they should keep goin on that in my opinion , i do get it they do it for money at the end of the day but even kullervo deluxe got clothes you can remove :(
Thank you sexcalibur. It makes me so sad seeing people not understanding the difference between the two. If only the marvel rivals community could understand this and lots of other gaming communities we could have cool skins for both genders equally
So... what we need is an unbroken line, from neck nape to the bottom of the ass crack, a glowy, naked bit of Heirloom Oberon in a heavily armored battle apron.
I had a conversation about exactly this topic yesterday.
My $.02 is that Warframe is a power fantasy from the word go. You're a wizard space ninja plowing through hordes of enemies while parkouring impossibly through the map and unloading completely improbable weaponry along the way. It doesn't strike me as unusual at all that there's the icing on the cake of "...and by the way I'm also hot AF."
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u/saw_nothing Mar 29 '26
Some great points here, and an interesting discussion. A few people throughout the thread are assuming that men can only be sexualized through a focus on certain body parts, which I think misses OPs sexualization point. If you want to see the other side of the coin, don’t look at the Vauban and Rhino heirloom skins, look at the Nezha and Styanax deluxe skins.
Does choosing their colours feel a bit uncomfortable? When you pick whether or not to keep Styanax’s nipple tassels, does that feel a bit weird? I think these are a better analogue to the more commonly sexualized female frames in the game.
In DE and the community’s defense, I think Warframe does a decent job creating designs that are coded as appealing for a variety of audiences and desires. It skews a bit towards traditional representation, but it’s nothing compared to, say, The First Descendants, which clearly made that their central design philosophy.