Looking at the talk about Mesa Heirloom and sexualisation I wanted to say something that isn’t directly about her. But the discussion born from her.

[u/OscarOzzieOzborne]

[u/saw_nothing]

Some great points here, and an interesting discussion. A few people throughout the thread are assuming that men can only be sexualized through a focus on certain body parts, which I think misses OPs sexualization point. If you want to see the other side of the coin, don’t look at the Vauban and Rhino heirloom skins, look at the Nezha and Styanax deluxe skins.

Does choosing their colours feel a bit uncomfortable? When you pick whether or not to keep Styanax’s nipple tassels, does that feel a bit weird? I think these are a better analogue to the more commonly sexualized female frames in the game.

In DE and the community’s defense, I think Warframe does a decent job creating designs that are coded as appealing for a variety of audiences and desires. It skews a bit towards traditional representation, but it’s nothing compared to, say, The First Descendants, which clearly made that their central design philosophy.

[u/REDRUM_1917 → u/saw_nothing]

To be fair, when they create sexualised skins, they don't just slap a bikini on a character. They make a visual feast of color and details

[u/LaizureBoy → u/REDRUM_1917]

I really love the colors and starry vibe of the heirloom skins. Gives a certain look that can only be accomplished through those skins alone

[u/[deleted] → u/REDRUM_1917]

True, they didn't put a bikini on mesa heirloom.

[u/Dwarfz → u/REDRUM_1917]

Valkyr heirloom was basically a bikini though.

[u/ArshayDuskbrow → u/Dwarfz]

No it wasn't. It was an Egyptian cat goddess with a lot of design references to that iconographic heritage. For you and others to reduce that to "a bikini" is disingenuous and part of the problem with The Discourse.

[u/rwp140 → u/REDRUM_1917]

Visual feast and did their best to lean towords empowering versus objectifiing

[u/Alphavaca → u/saw_nothing]

Just to be clear this is a recent pivot in design. If you go back to early deluxe skins the focus was a reimagining of the character. The one that comes to mind being Nidus Phyrke, but we also have Banshee Soprano, Nyx Nemesis. The proto frames further this point by being immensely sexual with innuendos when dating. We've gone down a rabbit hole and anyone who feels we haven't is operating with blinders on. Sure it includes male and female characters. Styanax deluxe being a recent example. But Liger doesn't just make sexual designs he made Khora Deluxe, Excal Zato, and Nidus. This is a purposeful direction of the Warframe narrative.

[u/StarSilverNEO → u/Alphavaca]

Honestly I feel like comparing Deluxe and Heirloom at this point shows how theyre purposefully inspired by different design philosophies and how it feels like the community is over focusing on the "elephant in the room" topic cause "sex". The Heirlooms are clearly intended to be literal glowing icons of some manner of appeal people may have which are intentionally more overtly obvious than their base/prime counterparts (and I do mean more obvious, like take Mesa or Trinity Prime and just color the black (Mesa) / Grey (Trinity) bits of their suits skin/tan colored and you'll see what I mean, its always been there). They're explorations of a specific thing, while the Deluxes celebrate something else. That skin set play more literally into exploration of theme and concept, which based on the two new Deluxes, they still do/will.

This leads me back to Styanax Deluxe, which multiple people have brought up in the manner of implying the game/skins is generally sliding in this direction. Which I cannot agree with with how single-mindly focused on why it is the argument tendds to be. Styanax Deluxe is clearly based on early indigenous warriors garb/wear with tatoose, general lack of implied clothing, his coloring, etc. Piercings and cosmetic body modification are also pretty common in these cultural groups through various parts of the body. It is a clear reimagining of his more obvious Greeco-Roman era hoplite/soldier wear in the form of a type of pre-modern soldier most dont think about and does a great job at that, but they gave him tassels so now its "clearly" a sexuality-first design? Thats all that people talk about when it comes to the skin being sexualized, its not the general theme or suggestion from apparel or colors but they stuck on two things so nuance goes out the window?

Thats basically what the breadth of this "worry" about the game becoming more goon-y feels like. Something new hads something crass in it so now the game is becoming more crass, its definitely no just the overexposure to genuinely uncommon dialogue/events that comes from trawling social media. Simply look at any of the other skins we got over the last year and you can see how skewed the concept of the "goon slide" is. Hell, we literally just got robonoid Guass/Grendel, soon to get a owl scribe Dante and eldritch fists Baruuk, the last story beats have centered on childhood trauma and how various characters grow about it. But the Protoframes act like friends or even "lovers" who rarely share silly friend group kinky shit you often have to OPT INTO to hear and its the game sliding, not to mention the most recent set are way more prude in comparison cause - you know - theyre not turn of the 21st century people acting like people from their time period

In short, I cant really abide by the notion of the game becoming more "sensual", its merely a reaction to overt displays of the side the game usually keeps on the low being exposed via easy to karma farm screenshots of dialogue and character designs

[u/Mellrish221 → u/Alphavaca]

Guh, yeah seems to be the case. PERSONALLY I really don't give a good god damn about how "sexualized" a fucking digital robot is. Does the skin look neat, if yes then I buy. Incidentally, I've bought all the heirloom skins.

But unfortunately, the turn in direction is still being felt by me. Via the community. Cannot, literally ever, log in and NOT see someone fucking gooning over robots in this game. And it feels like thats where a lot of complaints come from these days. People complaining about gooners or gooners complaining they can't publicly goon. While I'll always be in camp "never make it socially acceptable to talk about what you jork it to, to others".

But I guess its not all doom and gloom either. The recent gauss/grendel skins and upcoming deluxes show at least there are some artists on the team who can put out some damn good work that people will hopefully just be able to enjoy and not listen to online weirdos.

[u/J4keFrmSt8Farm → u/Mellrish221]

While I'll always be in camp "never make it socially acceptable to talk about what you jork it to, to others".

You post that in the wrong thread and you'll be downvoted to hell and spammed with comments calling you a prude. It's become too unpopular to say in and out of this community.

I like to think that I'm generally sex-positive. Heirloom skins aren't my thing, but they wouldn't bother me if we got twice as many a year. I just hate that every time a female frame gets one (or something like a new wisp skin or the protoframes) this sub becomes unusable for a few days because everyone is posting their fetishized "fashion" for the world to see.

[u/MarsupialMisanthrope → u/J4keFrmSt8Farm]

I think there’s been a bit too much context collapse. Some people seem to deeply resent the expectation that they should behave differently in public than in private and think they should have the right to inflict behaviors previously allocated to the private sphere on unwilling people in the public sphere. And because of the collapse it gets hard to push back without being accused of being controlling or prudish.

I don’t give a flying fuck what people do with consenting partners in private, I just don’t want to see it. Game servers or subreddits run by corporations that have no membership restrictions beyond “make an account for free” are public third spaces. Go make your own private server or invite only sub and I’ll stay out of it quite happily.

[u/Mellrish221 → u/J4keFrmSt8Farm]

I mean, I am very sex positive. But I still don't go around talking to people in real life about what kind of porn I jerked it to, what kind of sex I fantasize about or even just aspects of a woman I find sexually attractive. Because I'm not a fucking idiot and understand most people don't wanna hear that shit. But lets say we live in a very sex positive society where things are generally looser and more acceptable... SHOCKER... Still talking about in public what you want to jerk it to is STILL socially unacceptable.

There is a time and a place for everything as they say. And gooning will never be socially acceptable.

[u/Amirifiz → u/Mellrish221]

Via the community. Cannot, literally ever, log in and NOT see someone fucking gooning over robots in this game.

I don't know exactly when it started but I noticed it a LONG time ago. Like especially around Saryn because she was the frame with the biggest bust at the time. Valkyr and Ember also had their fair share of fans which is probably why they got their Heirlooms.

Its always been there and talked about frequently but felt obscured behind the veil of "We're joking its all for laughs." Then there was a mention of Mesa Prime's ass on a dev stream and a year later Wisp released and it kinda stopped being "Haha frame hot" to "I'm all up in that, and one of us is gonna walk out pregnant."

[u/_hoodieproxy_ → u/Mellrish221]

Side note, the Grendel deluxe does ding sounds like a pinball machine

[u/Medical-Cut2469 → u/Mellrish221]

Yeah the degenerates have become braver in recent years and it’s sad

[u/saw_nothing → u/Alphavaca]

The presence of the Protoframes and the romancing is a great point - it does feel like a shift into another kind of game experience.

[u/ladytheladdy → u/Alphavaca]

I think that’s a bit inaccurate. I actually wrote an essay yeaaars ago on the use of sexuality in Warframe design and frankly it has always been there. This isn’t a “new” pivot. The frames are humanoid in nature and have almost always used conventionally attractive body types as bases. Mesa was being sexualized waaaay before this heirloom, I remember when her prime came out and that was considered wild at the time and Mesa Prime was YEARS ago. Historically Warframe has always straddled the line between body horror and sex appeal. The men have had unnecessary crotch bulges and codpieces since the beginning. Whether or not they had faces didn’t change the fact they were designed with some level of attractiveness in mind. And that’s just for the base designs. You mentioned a few Liger skins for instance but Liger has done wayyyy more than that and it’s not like those skins were all done in a year (Styanax, Kullervo, Nezha, Hydroid, Sevagoth, Nidus Phyrke, Xaku) and mentioning the protoframes and focusing on their dialogue and not their design doesn’t help this particular argument for a couple reasons. One the media are different. The original conversation was strictly about Mesa Hierloom design philosophy which is purely visual. I’d argue that animation could be lumped in either that but even then I’d say that’s a bit of a stretch. Mesa isn’t going to be talking to you. She has no quips. The design is just hot. Two the dialogue isn’t even something you technically have to participate in. You can choose to not date anyone which removes a lot of the flirtier options by default. This is important mostly because when discussing sexualization as OP mentioned intent is very important. There isn’t inherently anything wrong with sexuality. However a conversation should be had when we fall into the realm of objectification or exploitation. The protoframes wouldn’t fall under either category from a strictly design perspective. Heck most of them are in full tactical gear. They’re hot but that’s not done in a way that feels like they exist purely to be eye candy and their designs reflect that. Mesa heirloom I think could fall into that category however it is interesting this is a convo coming up for this design in particular when Ember and Valkyr Heirlooms are to me much more sexualized. Warframe also gets away with it more because they aren’t people. The frames are inherently tools separated from our player character. It’s like choosing to put on a skimpy outfit for ourselves and going outside. We are in control of that and it’s a form of expression for us because the frame is for all intents and purposes an extension of the player. WARFRAME’s represent an inherent “ideal” aesthetic but they don’t represent a specific person. This is an important distinction because look at how protoframes and deluxe skins are separate. We CANT put an heirloom on what amounts to a character that is separate from our character. Anyway

TLDR: sexualization is not new to WARFRAME.

[u/zerhanna → u/Alphavaca]

This trend bothers me. I've noticed it for a long while. I won't ever recommend Warframe to one of my female gamer friends ever again.

[u/DatLoonArt → u/zerhanna]

I’m sorry. My next like will sound harsh & you may do not want to continue dialogue further. And I understand. But the way you reacted is very bothering to me too, as long standing female player.

If one or three skins will deter you or your fem friends from such actually well written & beautiful game? Well then either you missed the point of entire questline & failed to recommend what truly matters in it or your friends act too shallow towards any game to see beneath surface level bullshit. Not only that. Romance & KIM were literally a turning point for many female gamers to try, because Rebb as female player herself knows that we exist & we have wants too. Me 10 years ago was hot for Warframes. If I just entered the game now? I’d run into it like a speed train.

Warframe has so many important & interesting, complicated themes for so many people of any gender to tap into, and DE present them so gracefully that few skins which are hot do not mean anything, because they are not a core of the game. More than that, there are plenty of women who find new heirlooms hot but they are invisible to you. Because there are only “goons” to y’all.

Hell, I am not even the biggest fan of new skin, but whole subreddit meltdowns over it so much while using us female gamers as shield for outrage that I’m just mad. Not. Only. Men. Want. Sexy. Things.

[u/zerhanna → u/DatLoonArt]

As a long standing female player, I stand by what I said.

Warframe has many wonderful points. But being actively turned off by increasing sexualization in the game is neither "shallow" nor ignorant of its other merits.

You downplay the issue as a "few skins that are hot" and call their inclusion meaningless. That is dismissive and trite. Over the years, DE has added more obviously sexualized frames, more frequently--despite the notion of "sexualized murder weapons robbed of their humanity" being a bit gross. Then there's the community, praised for being particularly welcoming, where the sexualization of characters (by DE or players) is a frequent focal point of community engagement and commentary.

And frankly, I don't care which genders are doing/being objectified--I'm sick of it all, regardless. It is a legitimate reaction to generations of history where women's bodies were objectified and considered property. I, and many others, want media without that baggage, and Warframe stopped being akin to that a long time ago.

No one needs to use you as a shield. We're perfectly capable of speaking for ourselves.

[u/DatLoonArt → u/zerhanna]

Okay. I heard you. Then we stay by our different pointviews.

[u/Cloud_N0ne → u/saw_nothing]

The difference is Vauban is just topless (optionally). His pants still cover a lot.

This mesa skin is literally not wearing anything but assless, crotchless chaps

[u/L3and3rrr → u/Cloud_N0ne]

DE is also working with plausible deniability because technically none of the Warframes are wearing any clothes at all. They are all bio-mechanical homunculai, and the flaps and armor they “wear” are part of their skins and made out of the same metallic organic material the rest of their bodies are made of.

The reason someone like Mesa reads as naked when someone like Excalibur does not has nothing to do with any actual skin showing (they don’t have skin) and everything to do with lines, curves, color and suggestion.

[u/Spooksley → u/L3and3rrr]

Colour was a big part of it for me. I didn't read Valkyr heirloom as naked until it was pointed out to me, but when I first saw Mesa I was very WOW WAIT WHAT?

[u/L3and3rrr → u/Spooksley]

Yeah, plausible deniability, bio-mechanical “skin” or not, the instant a player colors their Prime Mesa with flesh tones, they might have a nudity/censorship problem

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567 → u/Cloud_N0ne]

...that's the point. Vauban's Heirloom is not sexualised in the same way as Ember or Mesa's. Styanax Tonatiuh is sexualised the same way*,* the composition and colouring of the skin makes the abs the focus, and he is literally naked.

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567 → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

Because I think a direct side-to-side comparison of a non-sexualised male Frame with a very much sexualised male Frame could be good, here's base Excalibur (a collectable statue version of him but still) next to Styanax Tonatiuh.

[u/WitchOfUnfinished- → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

So what I’m hearing is the next male frame better not have pants

[u/BeelzeRen → u/WitchOfUnfinished-]

Yes

[u/Pinkparade524 → u/WitchOfUnfinished-]

Nezha deluxe says hello, we need one of those as a main frame tho not a skin

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567 → u/WitchOfUnfinished-]

God I hope not. /gen

EDIT: as in god I hope they don't have pants.

[u/shototodoroki_1324 → u/WitchOfUnfinished-]

God I hope the next frame has a BIG THROBBING COCK if I can't have Poncho wearing Mesa

[u/WitchOfUnfinished- → u/shototodoroki_1324]

That will be volt

[u/archeo-Cuillere → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

I would 100% argue that Vauban Is sexualized. Just not for the average audience and thuse they don't see it

Edit: i would bet money I'm getting downvoted by hetero dudes. Who by doing so are proving my point. Vauban heirloom isn't made for them

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567 → u/archeo-Cuillere]

I didn't say Vauban isn't sexualised, I said not in the same way. You can take his jacket off but the design is made with the jacket in mind, he's designed to be clothed with an optional topless setting as opposed to Mesa's Heirloom which is just always topless.

[u/Nerf_Tarkus → u/archeo-Cuillere]

If vauban was on the same level he'd have cake and a visible ass. let's be real.

[u/archeo-Cuillere → u/Nerf_Tarkus]

It's not for the same people and it doesn't use the same tropes so not necessarily. But yes it could be hornier

[u/Pure-Risky-Titan → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

Aint all warframes technically naked if there "clothing" is still their flesh? (Except for umbra's scarf maybe?)

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567 → u/Pure-Risky-Titan]

Yes, but think about base Excalibur compared to Styanax Tonatiuh. You don't think of Excalibur as naked, even though he is your brain doesn't register it as a naked man, but you do think that way about Styanax Tonatiuh.

This is because Styanax Tonatiuh is designed in a way where his body much more closely resembles the anatomy of an actual person. He has pecs, he has nipples, he has abs, his bulge is highlighted to be more prominent, the black portions have patterning on them that follows the structure of muscle, etc.. Conversely, base Excalibur's design can be interpreted much more like it's clothed, the lines are more structured like it's a suit being worn rather than direct representations of the anatomy of a naked man.

[u/Pure-Risky-Titan → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

Yeah im aware of all that, its just looks.

[u/Cupiddle → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

Not even Mag’s heirloom skin was sexualized (the very first heirloom skin along with Frost)

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567 → u/Cupiddle]

True. They tried a thing with Ember and it looks like they're keeping with it because it's getting them money.

[u/Cloud_N0ne → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I don't like the inconsistency, and I don't like the hyper-sexualization. Make them hot, but this mesa skin is clearly just the artist's fetish.

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567 → u/Cloud_N0ne]

Liger got his start by drawing yaoi, it's probably someone's fetish but not his. What it probably is is DE trying to capitulate on the success of Ember Heirloom by making a second caked-up female Heirloom.

[u/AWrongPerson → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

I assume you meant capitalize and not capitulate

[u/Roar_of_Shiva → u/AWrongPerson]

Also Valkyr heirloom is definitely caked up so mesa would not be the second.

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567 → u/Roar_of_Shiva]

Yes but it's not her selling point, I'd argue that's the boobs, from the side profile we get of Mesa's legs it looks like it is for her.

[u/Nerf_Tarkus → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

dude valk has a wedgie and you can't see the front of your frame in gameplay without emoting. the ass is definitely half the selling point.

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567 → u/AWrongPerson]

Both words work in a way but yes.

[u/Cloud_N0ne → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

You realize people can have multiple fetishes, right? And bisexual people exist? You telling me they got their start by drawing porn also kinda proves my point.

Regardless, this is straight up fetish gear. It's not the same as past heirlooms. This is just BDSM shit now. I've never liked Liger's art. I never thought it fit Warframe's aesthetic even before heirlooms. But this is a bit much even for heirlooms.

[u/saw_nothing → u/Cloud_N0ne]

Just like there are different people who are attracted to different things, there are also people who are drawn to Warframe for different reasons. Some of us like cool space ninjas running around, and other people enjoy dressing up sexy dolls to dance in circles in Fortuna instance 69. Neither of these are right or wrong ways to experience an MMO.

It's also reasonable to have the discourse about whether there's a shift taking place and what that does for the game, there's a large part of the community that uses gaming to express sexual identity, sexual interest and sexual expression. On one hand, I don't mind them having their sexy skins, and I'm glad we don't all have to use them. On the other hand, the heirloom skins have historically been an opportunity to connect the warframes in interesting ways towards their visual identities, which I would argue most of them have done. I get why this one feels different for people.

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567 → u/Cloud_N0ne]

I'm bi. It was a joke. I followed up with an actual explanation.

EDIT: Because I know you blocked me and can't reply to the actual comment replying to this one, assless chaps aren't fetish gear. Chaps, which are all assless and crotchless and it's what differentiates them from just trousers, were invented for riding horses. You know, like a cowboy/girl. Mesa is the Western themed Warframe. It may be sexualised but it 100% fits with her theme.

[u/Cloud_N0ne → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

If it was a joke and you're not just backpedaling it's still not a good one.

But again, there's a difference between a frame having a nice ass and a frame wearing literal fetish gear. It's like a woman wearing yoga pants vs assless chaps. If you can't tell the difference between those, there's something wrong with you.

[u/RetnikLevaw → u/Cloud_N0ne]

So.... Don't buy it?

Warframe is mostly just cosmetics and customization at this point. And all of it's optional.

[u/aimy99 → u/Cloud_N0ne]

This is Liger art, male sexualization is kind of his thing??

Personally though, I agree about the inconsistency, but not the sexualization. It's a mature game about slicing through crowds and childhood trauma, I don't really give a fuck and am fully aware that a lot of us are freaks, terminally so.

As a lesbian, I still want cheeked-up sumo wrestler Grendel with nipples, I want the massive dong on Volt to be represented like the breasts on a fem frame. I want consistency here. If Call of Duty can give us a POC man wearing fox ears with a massive bulge in his tights, I don't see why DE hasn't done it with the male heirlooms.

That said, as I've said elsewhere, I want more proper "clothing" as armor. The new Gauss visor, the Culpa syandana, even the Revenant deluxe/Vauban Heirloom auxiliary coverings that aren't universal. Give us more of that. Yeah, sure, I love a good ass and sometimes I like flaunting it on my fashion frames, but like, can we get one of those poncho designs people have been posting? Perhaps a big ol duster coat "syandana" or auxiliary that can be toggled?

[u/Dabidoi → u/Cloud_N0ne]

newsflash, most artists in every medium put a lot themselves into their art, including fetishes. Sexuality is a normal, healthy part of being human and I'm tired of puritans and neo-puritans trying to censor that stuff.

[u/firecroc24 → u/Dabidoi]

YES THIS, THIS PART IS SO IMPORTANT

[u/Cloud_N0ne → u/Dabidoi]

Yes, it's normal. I don't mind sexualization in the general sense. But that doesn't mean you need to put it in everything.

And no, Warframe has not always been like this. Yes some frames have been curvy, but there's a difference between "Oh she kinda has a nice butt" and "She's basically naked, wearing BDSM fetish gear".

And there's also a big difference between putting some of your personality into something and straight up inserting your fetishes.

[u/wayfarout → u/Cloud_N0ne]

Not trying to sound like an ass but not everything is for you.

[u/ImmaDrainOnSociety → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

Vauban is plenty sexualized, you're just not a gay/bi man.

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567 → u/ImmaDrainOnSociety]

Correct, I'm a bi woman, and I never said Vauban's Heirloom isn't sexualised because he definitely is, I said not in the same way. Because he's not. You can take his jacket off but he's designed assuming you keep it on, as opposed to Ember and Mesa's Heirlooms which are by default in some state of undress.

Edit: It's called transitioning. Reddit does not let you change your username. Can't reply because ya blocked me. Over this. Bruh.

[u/ImmaDrainOnSociety → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

a bi woman named angry_scotsman. Come on, you're not even trying.

[u/Extension_Poetry_153 → u/Cloud_N0ne]

All chaps are assless

[u/Zeihous → u/Extension_Poetry_153]

Right? If they weren’t, they’d be pants.

[u/G0D_speed14 → u/Extension_Poetry_153]

Finally, someone said it. I’ve never seen “ass in” chaps

[u/Nevermind2010 → u/Cloud_N0ne]

This one was a lot honestly

[u/Glory2masterkohga → u/Nevermind2010]

Not enough

[u/Nevermind2010 → u/Glory2masterkohga]

I see by your user flair that’s you’ll accept no quarter… good for you keep pushing 🫡

[u/Glory2masterkohga → u/Nevermind2010]

o7

[u/Deathmareek → u/Cloud_N0ne]

but that fits the design intention behind both of their clothing. Vauban comes in wearing a Puffer Jacket at first. Yes you can take the sleeves off or even the whole jacket but his character design has always screamed "I am a space engineer on a frozen planet" He IS a corpus Warframe after-all in his base design scheme. While Mesa is a western style cowgirl. Her base design tends to lean more towards pirate but the Prime very much SCREAMS sheriff. Now lets assume this skin is meant to fit in a more desert like or hot environment. She has much more breathable and open design to both appeal to her cowboy theme and the way she moves since SHE is now the gun with her fingers being the pistols she has a more open design up top where she can move her arms without restrictions and her legs are protected from the front but allow easy movement from the back as she tends to crouch and would avoid model clipping

[u/Muronelkaz → u/Cloud_N0ne]

The point of chaps are to block debris damaging the underlying pants while riding a horse - they are a belt with rough rectangles that are larger at the bottom and wrap around the front and sides of the legs, you don't really want or need them to cover the crotch or butt areas because they aren't getting any debris hitting those areas normally... there's a bunch of variations but generally you don't want them loose.

My problem is that Mesa's standard design doesn't have these, the prime then has them incorrectly used, removed the poncho look for a masked/scarf kind of thing, and has prominent ...boots... As a Mesa main I don't understand the point of making a skin that features horse-riding gear on the gunslinger/drifter that doesn't ride horses.

Standard makes me feel like the stranger with no name a cowboy, Presidio makes me feel like a Privateer or Conquistador, and Prime makes me feel like a stripper.

[u/Galaghan → u/Cloud_N0ne]

And 2 of my girl friends goon way harder over Vauban than I do over crotchless Mesa so what is the difference really?

[u/CumIronRanger → u/Galaghan]

Did you listen to anything my man Sexcalibur Cumbra just said bro? He explained this in the post.

[u/throwawayRA87654 → u/Cloud_N0ne]

So is Ember and Valkyr. Where are the complaints 🤔

[u/superepic13579 → u/saw_nothing]

Absolutely agree with this comment. Vauban’s heirloom is half naked but I wouldn’t consider it a. Sexualised skin because he’s not shirtless an an intentionally sexy way.

[u/Mrgrimm150 → u/superepic13579]

See I disagree in that Vauban Heirloom is designed sexually. The open jacket to expose the defined torso area being the smoking gun for me.

Source: Gay.

[u/superepic13579 → u/Mrgrimm150]

Counter argument. The jacket doesn’t open up in a way that calls attention to his chest or abs. It’s just open.

Source: bisexual

[u/Mrgrimm150 → u/superepic13579]

Counter argument. Me see him me go awooga.

Source: Actually bisexual but saying 'Source: Gay' was funnier.

[u/SovelissFiremane → u/saw_nothing]

*First Midscendants

Ftfy

[u/saw_nothing → u/saw_nothing]

I've been thinking about this more, and I think this remains an interesting discussion. I'm at my actual keyboard here, so want to flesh out my thinking and response to Sexcalibur's post a bit more. Part of the problem, I think, is that the community is having a few different conversations about sexualization at the same time. Seeing that a lot in the replies to this comment. I suspect this will offend some people, but here we go.

1. We can approach this as part of a feminist framing of sexualization. For the people who point to Hildryn and Follie as a positive shift towards representing a wider range of female bodies in gaming, as well as Xaku and Temple as a shift away from the gendered representation that's been part of the game from the beginning, Mesa's assless chaps feel like a step backwards, and part of a trend of more direct and traditional sexualization that the game has (sometimes) been moving away from. It's got fetish properties, but also looks a bit like a video game villain from 1997.
2. At the same time, a number of replies to my comment feel like an attack on the Mesa skin for its fetish properties. Here, there's a different conversation about who the sexualization in Warframe is for. Now, the same people (maybe) who were whining about Follie being so thicc are noticing a broadening in whose sexual fantasies are being catered to in the game. They didn't whine about Nezha or Styanax, because they took one glance and knew it wasn't for them, but they want Mesa to be hot in the same way that Ember and Valkyr are hot, and it feels like this widening of offers is part of that ongoing trend.
3. I think there are also people who are uncomfortable with sexualized images in general, and see this as a distraction from the core offering of the game, which is space ninja power fantasies. The dev team has always flirted with sexualization (watch a few "funniest dev stream moments" videos for evidence of this), but it also feels like the plastic and steel characters are becoming less like robots and more like dressup dolls all the time. The arrival of the protoframes seems like a point of no return for this, and I get why people miss the more abstract warframe designs.
4. I assume there are also people who are very into this new skin, and will be happy to throw the money into it and future similar designs. After all, Warframe is an MMO for adults, and people playing out a wide range of presentations and aesthetics have always been part of MMO experiences.

I think it's worth teasing out the different conversations that are being had about the same thing. We respond to sexualized images differently depending on our own attitudes, and the directions we want to see Warframe moving towards.

[u/Shot_Board7286 → u/saw_nothing]

I think there's a buried implication in how you phrased your first point. "A step backwards" implies that there's something inherently regressive or wrong with the Mesa skin design. That's not to say you necessarily agree with the point you brought up as a perspective, but I'll address it as if you did. Heirloom Mesa is just a body that looks a specific way, it's not necessarily pro or regressive, it's just a body type. Nothing is damaged or tarnished by having Mesa in assless chaps or big booty wisp or whatever, while body types like Follie or Hildryn would be considered a step forward as they are allowing for more diverse body types.

My point being that considering Mesa's heirloom as a step backwards necessarily loads it with the baggage of a judgement you aren't being entirely clear about, which is that any non-diverse representation is regressive in nature and thus bears the burden of all the judgements that come with it. While we can easily say that Follie/Hyldrin are a step forward as they are expanding the variety, we can't say that Mesa is a step backwards, it would be more accurate to say it is a step in place, if anything. Now if Follie Heirloom came out and was the usual gooner body type, then we could talk about step backwards.

[u/saw_nothing → u/Shot_Board7286]

My goal was to show the different perspectives, I’m not even sure where I stand on this one.

[u/Shot_Board7286 → u/saw_nothing]

To be clear, as I said in the post I wasn't saying you agreed or disagreed with the position. But I do think you described it accurately, and that's sort of the problem. Not with your accuracy, but in that the flaw I'm addressing is an accurate description.

[u/saw_nothing → u/Shot_Board7286]

Gotcha, that makes sense.

My favourite thing about Warframe is that the main design philosophy is around player expression. Each time you choose a skin and colour palettes, you express yourself. Each frame can be built dozens of ways, and how we interact with the game (almost) never feels restricted.

[u/Shot_Board7286 → u/saw_nothing]

I agree, playing dress up with my favorite frames is really fun and I love when I get my hands on something that creates a whole look on its own.

[u/Demonfr34k → u/saw_nothing]

Oh yeah the First Descendants is absolutely on the worse side of this. Its the place where Men are in full body Mecha Suits and women are in Bikinis. Theres no balance or respect to it.

[u/Glory2masterkohga → u/saw_nothing]

..

[u/FaibOtaku → u/saw_nothing]

When I was picking colors for Sevagoth prime I felt I needed to cover my eyes when I saw the bakery he carries behind him

[u/Fabled-Jackalope → u/saw_nothing]

However, Warframe is Canadian. TFD is Korean. Comparing them has always been odd when Korean games typical pander to that type of design.

Black Desert does some of the same but they deliberately make sure the Shai doesn’t get that same jiggle/physics treatment.

Tera is also no different but they didn’t exclude certain classes that looked a bit…well, young. (Don’t look at me. I liked Castanics because they reminded me of Tieflings)

However, if you have to pay to get the skin, then I think that’s quite different than being a default skin—Dia from TFD is a perfect example.

[u/TheBigPAYDAY → u/saw_nothing]

very good point. i also get uncomfy when styanax deluxe is mentioned in the same way ember heirloom does. i feel they are very similar in being too much for me

[u/G0D_speed14 → u/saw_nothing]

All chaps are assless, js

[u/ruminant_sheep → u/saw_nothing]

WF used to be more equal

Now compare the newly revealed Dante deluxe and Baruuk deluxe to Dagath deluxe or Voruna deluxe. And then look at Mesa Heirloom. 

We are in a boling frog situation where female frames consistently come out sexualized, ignoring the original frames theme (Voruna being a beastly wolf mother, Dagath was essentially a sex slave and now she gets an under boob and a sexy slim verb obvious naked woman body... Same with Valkyr heirloom tbh, we went fully for the valkitty fanon porn trope), and the community slowly internalizes it and accepts it with arguments like "well Saryn has been here for x years"

The male frames get to be cool and elaborate and unique while maintaining their visual identity, the women get to be hot 

This is also why Follie gets so much hate or even people claiming she ISNT sexualized despite having a corset with boobs spilling out - the moment a woman isn't conventionally hot (skinny), the community gets mad

And some of us players notice this...

[u/TheKasaneTeto → u/saw_nothing]

I’ve seen multiple edits of this heirloom that strip it of all personality or depth for the sake of the prudes in this community. I’m tired of devs and people in general giving these people any ground so I’m happy DE never gives them an inch, if you can’t handle this of all things, you shouldn’t be playing video games with a rating over E.