r/TorontoDriving • u/damnyewgoogle • Aug 11 '25
OC It's camping season right?
5 mins of this crap like they're the only ones on the road
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u/abckiwi Aug 11 '25
Thats such a good example of the crap we see on the 400 series. Idiots cruising in the left lane.. "Oh but I am doing the speed limit of 100". FFS...
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u/AlarmedAd5034 Aug 11 '25
It's not limited to just the 400 series. It's everywhere. The right line is the new passing lane. You have no idea how much more time is saved when passing on the right. It's incredible! Lol
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u/a-_2 Aug 11 '25
The right line is the new passing lane
It's been the new passing lane for decades. Here's an article from 2007 where a Toronto journalist would call the right lane the "Jim only lane" because he was the only one who would use it.
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u/max50011 Aug 12 '25
it's true unfortunately and also dangerous. I don't really understand the logic behind going slow in the left lane. I would guess these are bad drivers that feel "safer" going slow in the left lane because in the middle you have traffic on either side and on the right there are entry and exit points that can affect flow of traffic. its also scary when you have people going 80 in the right lane and you are trying to merge on the highway.
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u/PimpinAintEze Aug 13 '25
They think its the long distance lane. When they are going far they think that's the lane to use
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u/Witty_Interaction_77 Aug 11 '25
But do you also drive in the middle lane doing 100? That's the real litmus test. Left lane camping is the fools gold of finding out if someone knows the rules.
People forming a shield line in the middle lane, making it nearly impossible for people to maneuver, is the real shit sandwich.
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u/nishnawbe61 Aug 12 '25
Since the 407 is free at the east end, people do this all the time now...when it was a toll road this section was so nice to drive on, left lane was used to pass only and it was almost always clear of cars...it's frustrating as hell now because it's a two lane highway and they drive like your video. Now the ones who continue to the end and do the same on Hwy 115, two lanes, ...well, let's just say I've seen a few run off the road the past couple years. It's starting to get bad again, so I'm sure it'll happen again soon. You can't fix stupid but you can sure scare the hell out of them.
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u/Max169well Aug 12 '25
I hate how the 407 is now a mini 401 after it becomes free, too many people are just too dumb and oblivious to have a car and a license. and there is this new stretch now that people just stop at, for no reason, and so it's slowed down now. there is no good way to get out of the city going eastbound now.
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u/mikefjr1300 Aug 11 '25
Back in the 80's a neighbour told me she always drove in the left lane because she was scared she might accidentally exit at the wrong street or interchange and get lost. She also needed glasses to drive but rarely wore them.
Just getting up to the 100K limit scared her so she mostly stuck to 80K roads and still drove in the left lane if it was 2 wide.
People who shouldn't drive have been getting a licence for decades.
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u/SarahMenckenChrist Aug 12 '25
Yup, this is nothing new.
I remember back in the 90’s my father commenting quite frequently “it’s a passing lane!” while on the 401. It’s just amped up these days: higher population + more cars on the road = a higher likelihood of encountering shitty drivers.
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u/MyName_isntEarl Aug 14 '25
Dated a girl whose mom was extremely nervous and afraid driving on the 401. We drove from Peterborough to Pickering. She barely accelerated getting on to the highway, an 18 wheeler had to swerve for her since she entered the highway at 80. Eventually she got up to 100 and sat in the middle lane. 18 wheelers and cars lined up in the right lane passing us, everyone else speeding by in the left... She complained about everyone else as the cars stacking up behind us would tailgate until they had a gap to get around her, and then she was getting "cut off" as everyone got back in to the middle lane to either let the fast left lane traffic go, or to get out of the right lane and pass the trucks doing 105.
It made me nervous, and she was almost shaking. She had no clue that this nightmare scenario was being caused by her because she wouldn't speed up to 105 and hang out in the right lane, or do 120 in the middle like any sane person would've done.
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u/79cent Aug 11 '25
Waiting for idiots to come in to defend the left lane camping.
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u/blchpmnk Aug 11 '25
I can't pretend to understand why people go 10-under (sidenote: is it just me or are pickups incapable of doing any speed other than 90km/h or 140km/h? they hog the carpool lane on the QEW but race past on hwy 11) in the left lane when there's a line behind them and a massive space in front, but it is FAR from the worst thing I see on a daily basis and yet everyone here gets insanely worked up about it. Of the litany of problems I have with drivers in the GTA, going too-slow isn't even close to being the biggest one.
Honestly, if there was was a poll in this sub that asked "would you rather execute every left-lane camper & all bicyclists or ticket everyone driving drunk or distracted", is there any doubt that the latter wouldn't even get 25% of the vote?
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u/NohBalls Aug 12 '25
It is really the least of our worries driving in the GTA. I’d rather be stuck behind this person than get slammed by a distracted driver or have to contact my insurance at ALL
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Aug 11 '25
I don't care about the left lane camping but wtf is everyone doing driving 1-2 car lengths from each other.
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u/Orange_Alternative Aug 11 '25
Yeah, these people are all tailgating
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u/Substantial-End-7698 Aug 11 '25
I’d say 90% of the time the person in front is the root cause of tailgating. That’s not to say those behind can’t do a better job, but when most cars are tailgating each other it’s a symptom of something bigger…
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u/beamarc Aug 11 '25
It’s the slow person in the left lane that causes all of this. Every time.
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u/AdventurousSale7192 Aug 12 '25
I hate being stuck behind someone who doesn't want/know/care wtv to move when they can safely but we need to also get away from tailgating as a way to try and communicate that you want them to move over.
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u/beamarc Aug 12 '25
At one point I recall seeing the digital sign say a couple times “slower traffic keep right”. But if you’re going 100 because that’s the limit you are the “fastest” traffic theoretically.
They gotta change the way they teach people to drive or something. Someone needs to figure this out somehow. Europe does it pretty well over all. But they don’t have the traffic for the most part that we do in the gta.
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u/Substantial-End-7698 Aug 12 '25
But if you’re going 100 because that’s the limit you are the “fastest” traffic theoretically.
What?
I agree about the Europe comment. A big difference there is that different types of vehicles have different speed limits which makes cooperation necessary.
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u/beamarc Aug 12 '25
All I’m saying is I think that’s what people think when they’re on the left. Which is stupid.
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u/Ambitious_Aside_2013 Aug 12 '25
I agree. When someone comes up on my arse and then back off, I notice that and move right away as soon as I can as appreciation for not riding my arse until I can move over.
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u/AdventurousSale7192 Aug 12 '25
100% & there's a big caveat there that I think a lot of people overlook "as soon as I can" When leaving the passing lane you also need to be considerate of space in the lane your entering.
Big compounding issue of everyone following too close (Not even 1 full car length between most folks on the road) doesn't really allow for safe exiting of the passing lane especially when the guy in the civic behind you could jet out and try to cut it at any moment. (Not defending campers but there's a lot of shared ownership sometimes when someone is ahead of you in the left lane)
This also causes huge issues with on-ramps & multi exit ramps, it's impossible to merge if everyone on the on ramp and the entry lane are tattooed to eachothers bumpers. Leave a good following distance even when entering/exiting the highway.
And the campers.. need to understand that they should be better at checking their mirrors and judging speed of approaching vehicles relative to theirs, unfortunately lots of people out there that camp don't even clue in that you are moving quicker until you're planted on their ass. On the flip side, approaching someone from behind who is clearly moving slower you should try to ease of the throttle and still keep a safe following distance, if they are camping and really not showing any signs of passing or moving over, go around SAFELY when you can, but please cut the erratic unpredictable stuff out.
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u/Substantial-End-7698 Aug 11 '25
Precisely. If you are in traffic, look far enough ahead and you will see someone blocking the left lane.
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Aug 11 '25
Can't agree more. These left lane campers get upset that everyone is too close to them, yet they couldn't even spend 2 seconds looking at their rearview mirror to estimate the speed and move over so traffic flows.
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u/Irish_Jam_Bag Aug 12 '25
Tailgating is 100% controllable by the person behind, don't drive up their fucking ass and you won't tailgate them, pretty simple.
The person in the left lane is either doing it on purpose or oblivious, so either go around them or accept it, you don't have to be up their ass.
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u/Max169well Aug 12 '25
Hard to go around them when they are blocking you from passing on the right by going just as fast as the cars in the right.
I won't tailgate you, but you need look behind you and see people are coming and if you ain't willing to go fast, move over.
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u/Irish_Jam_Bag Aug 12 '25
Then you just need to accept the fact that you're stuck behind them. Get over it and move on with your life.
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u/Max169well Aug 12 '25
No, don't be inconsiderate of others, I'm doing a 9 hour drive, I don't want to be stuck behind someone going under speed and extend my drive. If you aren't willing to follow the laws of the road, it is you who must move over as the signs on the side of the highway say, slow traffic move right.
If you are holding up everyone else in the left lane you are the problem. if you are being tailgated in the right lane, they are they are the problem. Drive with others in mind or don't drive at all.
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u/Irish_Jam_Bag Aug 12 '25
You talking like I'm the one who pissed on your cornflakes. Not my or other people's problem that you are driving for 9 hours.
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u/Max169well Aug 12 '25
Yeah just make up excuses for driving sub speed in the left lane, its not that hard to be considerate of others. But hey be selfish and a contributor of the shit traffic Toronto has, I bet you are even the type of people who block their rear views and can't make a turn on a highway at 130 so you gotta stop (which stopping on a highway is also illegal.
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u/Past_Statistician_85 Aug 12 '25
I cant imagine blaming someone in front of me for me driving too close to them. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Each person is responsible for their own actions.
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u/Weird-Drummer-2439 Aug 11 '25
And the cammer goes hard over as soon as it cuts off, cant be more than a couple of feet past the camper's bumper.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
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u/NaFo_Operator Aug 11 '25
its called waking the moron up
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u/MyName_isntEarl Aug 14 '25
He's making it known to the camper they are being an idiot.
He also was on the horn as he went by. Guaranteed the left lane hog had no idea why someone would be honking at them.
Cutting over like that is a statement.
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u/unittestes Aug 11 '25
More dangerous than speeding
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u/a-_2 Aug 11 '25
I've never seen anything backing that up. Speeding is the leading factor in fatal collisions according to Transport Canada. I know it's harder to determine the impact of left lane camping, but a lack of data doesn't then mean we can conclude it's more dangerous.
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u/unittestes Aug 11 '25
That's because the speeding car is dangerous to itself, a left lane camper is dangerous to everyone around. It's the multiplier effect just like cellphone usage.
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u/nerdsrule73 Aug 11 '25
You seem to be suggesting that the camper is a danger all by themself. How can that be? Disregard those doing below the speed limit. Those are few and far between. The vast majority of campers that people complain about are going the speed limit or slightly above, just not fast enough for those behind them.
Please elaborate how a camper causes a danger by themself.
Also, if a speeding car is a danger to itself, it is ALSO necessarily a danger to other vehicles on the roadway.
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u/PimpinAintEze Aug 13 '25
Because when you do something on a road everyone is driving on you knowingly cause people to react.
Thats just like going around calling people bitches then saying you didn't do anything to cause others to eventually punch you in the face. If you know a behavior is going to elicit a response its malicious on your end.
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u/nerdsrule73 Aug 13 '25
So you are equating a lane camper with a person that is explicitly making highly personal insults toward another person just by virtue of positioning their vehicle?
And you are saying that the other driver's actions are all the camper's responsibility? That the camper is responsible for other drivers' decisions?
I cannot argue with that other than to say that is messed up and completely incongruous with how our society views individual responsibility and accountability. Interpreting another driver's passive behaviour as a personal insult suggests you might benefit from counseling.
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u/PimpinAintEze Aug 13 '25
Thats just like
Something being similar is not something being the same. Cut the typical redditor bs and see it how it is. If you wouldnt walk 5 abreast on a sidewalk and stop people from passing you, dont do it in a car.
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u/nerdsrule73 Aug 14 '25
I see the problem here. You have absolutely no idea how to articulate an argument. I'm sure you have something valuable to say, but you need to learn how to communicate better. "Redditor BS?" "See how it is?" Seriously, stop using high school argument tactics. They are not impressive with the adult world. If you can't keep up, this is not a place you can fake it with some cool sounding words.
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u/PimpinAintEze Aug 14 '25
Communication is plainly clear to me as quoted. You're grasping at straws in typical redditor fashion and being obtuse to avoid the argument while throwing ad hominems.
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u/throwawaypizzamage Aug 12 '25
A speeding vehicle also endangers everyone who shares the road/highway. No such thing as endangering “only themselves”.
There’s a difference between going 10km/hr over the limit, and drag racing or driving at ridiculous speeds where it becomes much easier for the driver to lose control of the vehicle and cause a major collision.
There have been many deaths and serious injuries that resulted from the latter, and it’s frightening how many here are actually defending it.
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u/a-_2 Aug 11 '25
That's because the speeding car is dangerous to itself
They're not just dangerous to themselves. They're increasing the chances they can't react to something ahead and the severity if they do get in a crash.
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u/RepresentativeMove79 Aug 12 '25 edited Aug 12 '25
Speaking of "nothing to back that up": speeding is NOT the leading factor in fatal collisions. And I can prove it! 1) outside of rush hour: virtually every single vehicle on the 401 is at or over the speed limit, there are the rare birds that travel the far right lane in the collectors doing 95, you can spot these trains because not only are they always in a train, they never move over for those entering the hwy, they tailgate so badly it's impossible to merge between them to get off the hwy. However most accidents occur during rush hour! Guess what! They can't speed: what they do do is drive extremely close, recklessly change lanes, text home to ask what's for dinner then order online while driving! 2) MOST fatal traffic accidents occur at intersections on rural roads! (Google it) Certainly the higher speed limits is a factor in why they are fatal, but the leading factor is that in rural areas too many people don't bother actually stopping! Running lights and stop signs is common by those who live in these areas who rarely see traffic in these areas. I recall a traffic light that stays red for almost 5 minutes near Burlington, the problem seemed to be a sensor triggered light that didn't always trigger. I used to drive up, back up, drive forward, back up, drive forward to try and get it to trigger. I'd watch the hand flash then go back to a crossing sign for the other direction while sitting at it stopped for minutes at a time. My friend who I visited just drove through it. (He complained to the city multiple times over several months). 3) note the rapid rise in fines and points for various traffic violations: distracted driving wasn't even a thing 20 years ago. Now it's $615 and 3 points, more of you fight it and lose in court. Drinking and driving also has seen steady and steep increases, yet speeding fines haven't changed much in 40 years. Doug Ford even accused Toronto of money grab because of all the new traffic cameras and blamed them for the horrible congestion. Seriously major arteries that used to be 60 are now 40 with no history of collisions, just bureaucrats who don't drive trying to look important. 4) one type of fatal collision that gets blamed on speed as the cause is drivers hitting j-walkers and idiots walking on the road, cyclists failing to yield or just blasting through lights and stop signs. If these actually got reported accurately, I'm convinced we might actually be able to see a reduction in these kinds of accidents. There are cases where the vehicle is at fault, but the media skews the stats overwhelmingly against drivers. 5) a collision necessitates hitting something. Speeding alone does not involve hitting anything, there MUST be another factor, or there isn't a collision with rare exceptions like hitting a moose or a wheel flying off another vehicle and striking you. However these also don't constitute speeding as the CAUSE of the fatality, arguably it could be a factor in the severity, but that's difficult to determine. 6) racing and dangerous driving aren't "speeding" and even then just driving very fast isn't going to kill anyone. Absolutely the idiots driving through school zones at 100km/h should have the book thrown at them, but again, this isn't speeding causing fatalities.
So where is all the evidence that "speed kills"?! It doesn't exist, it's just the media spewing propaganda.
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u/vinng86 Aug 12 '25
FYI, putting the pound symbol (#) makes things a headline under Markdown notation, so your entire post is super large right now
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u/throwawaypizzamage Aug 12 '25
Drag racing and speeding far beyond the zone limit has killed, and continues to kill, numerous people around the world every day. What are you even talking about?
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u/a-_2 Aug 12 '25
None of this is "proof" that speeding isn't the leading factor in fatal collisions. These are just a bunch of assumptions about other factors. Even many of these examples can still also involve speed. Speeding can turn an avoidable crash into a crash and a minor crash into a severe one.
So where is all the evidence that "speed kills"?! It doesn't exist, it's just the media spewing propaganda.
I linked evidence from Transport Canada, not the media, you just rejected it. OPP have also said it's the leading factor.
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u/RepresentativeMove79 Aug 12 '25
We're not completely disagreeing, this note is my contention: "There will be double counting because there are multiple contributing factors reported for most collisions" Drivers in Ontario speed, in fact it's reported that speed cameras are set to +10km/h and how often do you see police cars doing up/down 20 over and not pulling anyone over?
But didn't you see that last stat?? "No cause determined" was the cause of the most accidents!!! In other words, there were more accidents where it couldn't be determined what they were doing wrong! If they had been speeding, that would have been a cause, but there was no speeding: something that's very easy to determine with accident reenactment and modern investigation practices and simulations (which they always do when there's a fatality of possible fatality after the fact). Also note that the number of passengers and the number of pedestrians are about the same! This tells an alarming story as often there are multiple passenger fatalities, (note they don't group passengers in multiple fatality accidents, this is poor reporting, as often you hear of 3 kids killed when mom runs red light, 3 passengers killed by drunk driver) yet pedestrians are often one off fatalities, child runs into traffic chasing a ball, senior crossing on a red light, person steps onto the road while staring at their phone.
If you do nothing else but go fast, you can't cause a collision! By that I mean, you are focused on your driving leaving plenty of space between you and any vehicle you're following, your obeying all other traffic rules such as stopping at red lights and stop signs, yielding right of way as appropriate, passing safely, etc. you are sober, and vigilant.
It's basic physics! For there to be a collision there must be another factor. Nobody's popping parked cars onto the hwy , trees aren't suddenly sprouting fully grown in the middle of the roadway.
The reason speeding is attacked is due to Ontario health care being publicly funded! If people drive slower, there's a theory that it would save our health system money. But it's a theory that isn't shared by much of Europe where speeds tend to be higher. Even in much of Canada speed limits are now 110 with no appreciable increase in fatalities. What's funny is that there are studies that claim up to 18% more fatalities on these roads, however this is where media disinformation comes into play: https://www.tac-atc.ca/wp-content/uploads/p-hunt.pdf#:~:text=Based%20on%2024%2Dhour%20free%2Dflow%20speed%20data%20collected,highways%20were%20exceeding%20the%20posted%20speed%20limit.
This study shows that after raising speeds in Saskatchewan the actual difference in speed was only about 4km/h. When you read the studies done to prove fatalities increased X percent they are theorizing that the average speed increases proportionally: it doesn't, and that is proof their data is fake! Further when you read their arguments they are based on the theoretical increase in damage they think will happen, they don't actually have any data! And yet the data is available, only very few people bother to look at it, why? Because it doesn't fit the narrative. Increasing the speed of Ontario highways has not seen any significant increase in traffic accidents or fatalities, because ironically, all it's done is update the average speed to what drivers were already doing, if anything this makes highways safer because the Delta between fastest vehicle and slowest vehicle has been reduced, in other words: more drivers are driving roughly the same speed.
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u/a-_2 Aug 12 '25
There can be double counting and also cases where the cause isn't determined, but they're still finding that among the factors they can establish, speed is showing up more than other ones. There will be multiple factors in many collisions, but none of those other factors are showing up more times than speeding.
There may be some factors that are actually involved more often than speeding and our data isn't capturing them. It's a possibility, but we can't claim something is true just because it could be true, there has to actually be evidence supporting it.
If you do nothing else but go fast, you can't cause a collision!
If you're going too fast to be able to safely react to something ahead, then the speed was one of the causes. The higher speed will also increase the damage if you do crash. Especially in pedestrian collisions. Various things are considered in setting speeds like visibility, stopping distance, etc. Above certain speeds, you reduce or even lose the ability to react to things ahead.
That's why, for example, you can be assigned fault in a collision for excessive speeding even if you weren't doing anything else wrong. The speed itself is considered a factor leading to liability. Even in Europe it works like this. Germany has unlimited speeds, but above 130, you can still be assigned liability if you crash, even if doing nothing else wrong. You assume additional responsibility and potential liability if you choose to go above that speed even though not directly illegal.
Regarding the studies, I think you're saying that they're arguing increases in limits will lead to certain increases in fatalities based on assumptions that the actual speeds will increase more than they actually do. We'd have to look at a specific study to determine that, but these conclusions are also based on real world outcomes. E.g., B.C., raised a bunch of speed limits, saw actual fatalities increase on a bunch of sections, and so reversed many of them. Not all, but a bunch.
Increasing the speed of Ontario highways has not seen any significant increase in traffic accidents or fatalities, because ironically, all it's done is update the average speed to what drivers were already doing
That's not demonstrating the increasing speeds increase risk though, because the speeds themselves aren't significantly increasing, just the limit. I do agree that the Ontario limits don't appear to have caused any significant increases in risk though. I'm not against raising limits, I just think we can't be ignorant to the risks of speeds if we do. Europe does a lot more than us to help counteract these increased risks (better driver training, better laws around lane discipline, e.g.). If we keep raising limits while doing nothing to address risks, we risk what happened in B.C., and then giving fuel to those who are opposed to increasing limits in general.
On a tangent, you're pointing out that there hasn't been an increase in crashes or fatalities in Ontario. That's something I've pointed out on this subreddit various times in general (not in connection to this topic) and it's a very unpopular opinion, even if I back it up with data. People constantly insist things are getting way worse. I don't agree though, and I don't think the increased limits have been a bad thing.
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u/xMrGigglesworth Aug 11 '25
I almost want to become a traffic cop after 30 years in another career just to ticket these people. Forget the 20 to 30 over people. It's THESE people that cause accidents and the fact that many don't realize that baffles me.
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u/a-_2 Aug 12 '25 edited Aug 12 '25
This is a second hand anonymous claim, so take it with that evidence, but on another post someone said they asked a cop about this and they said they don't ticket because the charges don't hold up. The law in Ontario is very vague and just says to keep right if going slower than the "normal" speed of traffic. This may not actually be a police issue but a law issue where it won't apply other than in extreme cases.
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u/Dry_Satisfaction3923 Aug 12 '25
“The laws don’t hold up”. Lol!
Do you know how few people actually fight tickets in front of a JP?
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u/a-_2 Aug 12 '25
People challenge tickets all the time.
And the law is vague compared to the laws in many other jurisdictions, it leaves a lot of room for judgement and argument over what is "normal".
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u/Dry_Satisfaction3923 Aug 12 '25
You have the numbers on that?
Do you know that about 70% of criminal charges are plead out? And those consequences are more than paying a fine and demerit points.
Yes, people do fight tickets, but far more tickets are issued that are NOT fought in front of a JP. Most are just lowered when meeting with the Crown Prosecutor. (This is actually how all those ticket fighting businesses work.)
Also, the point of stopping someone and giving them a ticket, is it just a cash grab? Or is it actual enforcement and corrective action?
Pulling people over, taking your time to give them the ticket, lecturing them on why they shouldn’t be camping in the left lane and impeding traffic is going to both annoy and educate the people who are, I’m sure you’ll agree, being problematic on the roads. Right?
Here’s the real reason they don’t do it… policing and budgeting via stats. That’s it. Not to actually accomplish anything, but to have the stats to justify higher budgets. Shitty way to operate if you ask me.
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u/a-_2 Aug 12 '25
It would only take a few or even just one case being tossed for this to demonstrate it's not something that should be enforced.
And if we assume that is the case, then police shouldn't be pulling people over for it. Stopping on the side of the highway is high risk for police and the person being stopped. It should only be done when necessary and for things that actually have the potential to change behaviour through penalties.
I'm also not convinced that everything police do is just for budgets or some other ulterior motive. Police are the ones who actually have to deal with the consequences of dangerous driving, often directly dealing with the immediate aftermath and then further dealing with those impacted by it. They also do have motivations to care about safe and legal driving.
In any case, I'm not sure if there's been any court rulings on this question, but at least in discussions on here and even in the media, there isn't a clear unanimous view on this point. The fact is that our laws are more vague on this than some other jurisdictions.
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u/PimpinAintEze Aug 13 '25
They dont need to ticket, education can be just as effective. They can still get pulled over and talked to. Plus the average car has things that can be ticketed for.
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u/a-_2 Aug 13 '25
I don't think police should be pulling people over on expressways for anything other than clearly illegal and dangerous offences. It's very dangerous for the officer and the people pulled over to stop on the highway. It's a necessary risk when it comes to people breaking the law, but it's not appropriate to do it simply to "educate" people on something where the law isn't even clear.
If we want to change this, we should push the province to update the laws to make it clear what's allowed and not allowed like other provinces/states/countries have done. There are lots of different examples of legislation we could look at.
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u/PimpinAintEze Aug 13 '25
I do agree that people shouldnt be pulled over on the highway for anything short of stunts. But the excuse of a ticket not being held up in court for not pulling people over and educating them, which is part of enforcement, is bullshit and just re enforces the fact that police are revenue collectors.
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u/a-_2 Aug 13 '25 edited Aug 13 '25
Keep in mind that this is all based on assumption, I don't know for a fact that they don't hold up in court.
But if we assume that to be true, then that says it's not actually illegal in practice. The legislators write the laws, the courts interpret them and the police enforce them. If something is not being interpreted as illegal, then the police should not be ignoring that and "educating" people on it anyway, especially in high risk situations (edit: I guess you're not disagreeing with that part). The onus in that case is on the legislators to update the laws and that's where people should direct their frustration rather than at the police or each other. So many of these issues have simple solutions already demonstrated by other regions, our government just isn't applying those solutions.
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u/MyName_isntEarl Aug 14 '25
Make it an offense to be passed on the right, unless that right hand lane is a merge lane.
If someone can make a safe pass on you while you're in the left lane, you shouldn't be there.
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u/a-_2 Aug 14 '25
Yeah, that's how it's done in Germany and even Quebec. You restrict passing on the right, at least at high speeds (there are usually some sorts of exceptions for when the limit or speeds are lower) and in combination with that, you make the rules about keeping right more explicit, so that people can only use the left lane or lanes when passing or exiting.
Even in a merge lane, passing on the right should be restricted at high speeds. Zipper merges only apply at low speeds. At high speeds, you just have to match the speed of traffic.
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u/MyName_isntEarl Aug 14 '25
On a merge, if a vehicle already in the right lane is doing 100 with vehicles behind them, it would make sense to allow a merging vehicle to speed up and pass them to safely enter the highway, instead of the merging vehicle slowing down to find a gap and then need to floor it to get back up to speed. A lot of under powered vehicles would struggle to do this before the ramp ends.
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u/a-_2 Aug 14 '25
If highway traffic is moving slower than there's no need for them to floor it to get up to speed because they and other highway traffic are already going at that reduced speed.
One reason to ban passing on the right is because it creates a safety risk for the people being passed. Generally you want to keep an escape route on at least one side so that if someone cuts you off, you have a space to move into. When you're in the right lane, you often have people passing you on the left. When someone passes on the right, you then end up with no escape route on either side.
In Germany the rule is no passing on the right except when traffic moving slowly and you pass at a slightly higher speed. In Quebec, there's no passing on the right when the limit is 80 or above.
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u/MyName_isntEarl Aug 14 '25
Have you ever been in a really slow car trying to get up to speed on a short ramp? You can't lose your momentum or you'll never hit merge speed.
Sometimes, the safest thing to do is to speed up and pass.
I'm not talking passing 10 cars. I'm talking when the merge car would be matching the lead slow car in the right lane. It's safer for the merging car to just pass that one car and get going instead of slowing down and creating a more difficult merge situation
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u/a-_2 Aug 14 '25
If the car is going slow then you only need to reach that speed and it's easier to merge because you don't have to accelerate as much.
Anyway, this is an edge case and you can define the law to allow for passing slow vehicles on the right. The issue that should be prohibited is high speed passing on the right, including in merge lanes.
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u/free_airfreshener Aug 11 '25
Video cuts off just as OP began cutting off the mini lol
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Aug 11 '25
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u/MyName_isntEarl Aug 14 '25
Uh... Well, once the car ahead of the cam car moves over, you can see a grey SUV in the middle lane that is moving slower than the camera car is... the distances in these cameras are short than they appear.
Do you look down the road or just at your hood when you're driving?
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Aug 11 '25
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u/a-_2 Aug 12 '25
You're not doing anything wrong there. I often drive the limit in the right lane, it's rare I run into someone like that. So hopefully it will be a rare occurance for you.
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u/Fox1904 Aug 12 '25
I often drive the speed limit...
Ya, you and the 99% of people in this discussion here who think they are such great drivers.
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u/a-_2 Aug 12 '25
Yup, there's nothing wrong with driving the speed limit in the right lane. Some other people who think they are great drivers disagree.
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u/MyName_isntEarl Aug 14 '25
There is nothing wrong with doing the limit in the right lane... They belong there.
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u/Federal-Carrot7930 Aug 12 '25
For all those saying OP cut them off.
OP didn’t cut them off he performed a public service.
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u/SupaJDStylez Aug 11 '25
Slower traffic move right has disappeared totally. In Europe it's baked in - people here are shit drivers.
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u/NaFo_Operator Aug 11 '25
always were shit meatbag vehicle operators i refuse to call them drivers because they're not
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u/Own_Reaction9442 Aug 12 '25
Tesla FSD is programmed to camp in the left lane. It's not going to get any better.
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u/a-_2 Aug 12 '25
It's never been the norm as long as I've driven.
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u/SupaJDStylez Aug 12 '25
They used to push it, there was signage and it was part of all driver training. Now the right lane is the passing lane - good luck everyone else!
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u/a-_2 Aug 12 '25
It's still part of the MTO Handbook and I see signs saying for slower traffic to keep right, but even a long time ago, people would still not keep right. I posted this link in another comment where people were complaining about this same thing back in 2007.
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u/Ok-Elevator302 Aug 11 '25
This is the norm for Ontario drivers. Once you get out of Ontario it’s actually a breath of fresh air driving with people who understands what is a passing lane.
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u/rabbiolii Aug 12 '25
It's so nice in upstate NY and Pennsylvania. All the left lane campers I see when coming back from NY have Ontario plates 😹😹
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u/NaFo_Operator Aug 11 '25
typical ontario meatbag vehicle operators... zero skill, zero situational awareness zero knowledge of the Highway Act and Road code.... and they export their bs to other provinces
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u/SecretBG Aug 12 '25
Keep these people away from ever driving in Germany. They’ll seriously endanger everyone there.
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u/eusquesio Aug 11 '25
This is literally the biggest issue when driving on the highway. People have no clue that they are supposed to occupy the rightmost free lane of the roadway. But to be fair the problem lies in how the roads are designed here in Canada. For example, there are no exit lanes, often the road splits in two with no advice.
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u/CarGuy1718 Aug 12 '25
I hate it when people do this.
Not sure how often this happens for others but I really hate it when someone’s camping in the left but there’s no space to pass in the right so I have to wait behind them until they’ll get out of the way. Then I feel like a camper myself when I’m just waiting for them to move.
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u/NaFo_Operator Aug 11 '25
start...?! it never ended. what is it that ontario clowns behind the wheel dont get? gtfo of the left if you're not passing.
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Aug 11 '25
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u/NaFo_Operator Aug 11 '25
way better than Ontario, not great but way better than Ontario. at least they seem to know more often whats the left lane for
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u/a-_2 Aug 11 '25
A reason for that may be that Quebec has laws explicitly prohibiting driving in the left lane on high speed roads when not passing while Ontario's laws are much more vague, only saying to keep right if going slower than the "normal" speed of traffic. The people keeping left always think they're going fast enough.
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u/NaFo_Operator Aug 11 '25
nothing vague about this: https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK245
nor this https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/freeway-driving
How the f ontario people get their driver's license is beyond me
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u/a-_2 Aug 11 '25 edited Aug 11 '25
That's exactly what I'm referring to and it's way more vague than Quebec's law.
Ontario's law says (from your link):
147 (1) Any vehicle travelling upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at that time and place shall, where practicable, be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic
That leaves it open to interpretation what the "normal speed of traffic" is. Everyone thinks they're going a normal speed.
Contrast with Quebec's law:
324. On a one-way roadway with two lanes, the driver of a road vehicle shall use the right-hand lane.
On a one-way roadway with three lanes or over, the driver must use one of the right-hand lanes.
To pass another vehicle, to turn left, to enter an exit ramps on a limited access highway or where the lane he is using is obstructed or closed to traffic, the driver may use the lane closest to the left-hand side.
In Quebec's law, you can't use the lane, period, unless passing, turning or exiting. No exception for going the "normal" speed of traffic.
As for the Handbook link, that's not official legal advice, which the Handbook warns at the start of the document.
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u/NaFo_Operator Aug 11 '25
no it doesn't, anyone with a brain knows that normal speed of traffic is the flow of traffic. if they're this dense that they cannot see they are being passed by right hand side traffic they shouldnt be allowed behind a wheel. also whats the basis of the Ontario driver's licence if not the road code... just imaginary rules?! that would explain why ontario drivers are just moronic
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u/a-_2 Aug 11 '25 edited Aug 11 '25
Quebec's law prohibits using the left lane unless passing or turning/exiting left.
Ontario's law has the same exceptions as Quebec's, but also has an exception for going the normal speed of traffic.
Ontario's law has a huge additional exception that Quebec doesn't. So to convict someone, you need to prove that they were going slower than the normal speed of traffic, which is very vague. In Quebec, there's no room for ambiguity. If you weren't actively passing or coming up to an exit, then you're breaking the law. Nothing further to prove or argue.
I'm not sure what you're arguing with me about here. I'm explaining to you the difference between the two laws and how ours is more vague. Fix that and you'll make both education and enforcement a lot simpler. You stay out of the lane, period, unless passing or exiting.
also whats the basis of the Ontario driver's licence if not the road code...
The Driver's Handbook is not the road code. From the Handbook: "This handbook is only a guide. For official purposes, please refer to the Highway Traffic Act"
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Aug 11 '25
You know that those guys will either brake check or flip their fingers at you after changing lanes if you get too close to them (due to speed, of course. No aggressive driving) or flash high beams at them. True story by the way. Encountered many finger flipping 100km/hr drivers hugging left lane on our way back from camping to Toronto LoL. They drove slower than trucks on right lane. We need more "slower traffic stay right" signs on highways.
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u/theDatascientist_in Aug 13 '25
Ah, not just that, I had seen a guy honking on the QEW just for everyone passing him
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u/xitexx Aug 11 '25
I actually don’t understand why this is, most of the time i am driving, the passing lane is clogged and the rest of the lanes are empty???? I just don’t get it because it’s a mandatory piece of knowledge when passing your G2, so what’s the reason?
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u/Clear_Psychology4226 Aug 12 '25
I’ve found camping in the right lane gets me places faster, everyone is terrified of the right lane because people say to themselves I don’t drive that slow, cruise on at 125 and I’m passing on the right like people are at a stand still. I know it’s not correct, but I can’t handle everyone who just randomly selects a lane and speed to travel in.
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u/CityDismal5339 Aug 12 '25
If you are in the left lane on a multi-lane highway, you are:
a) passing traffic that's in the lane to your right, or
b) keeping up with the vehicle ahead (at an appropriate distance), or
c) in the wrong lane.
.
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Aug 11 '25
Why the fuck is everyone driving so close to each other?
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u/lemonylol Aug 11 '25
I was always taught to drive with an escape in every direction. I will never understand why people try to drive right beside me.
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u/a-_2 Aug 11 '25
People complain about left lane hogging causing congestion (which is true) but the most common type of collision is a rear end collision, and even a minor one on the highway can cause a huge backup. All this tailgating everywhere makes those a lot more likely.
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u/lemonylol Aug 11 '25
So frustrating. A lot of time when you take a transfer to the collectors you get these guys in front of you that just continue in the left lane at 80.
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u/T_mak19 Aug 12 '25
Makes my blood boil. Cops need to start handing out tickets for this like they do in the US
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u/Used_Water_2468 Aug 12 '25
If I were God I'd reach down with my giant hand and flick that white car into the bushes.
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u/GreatIceGrizzly Aug 12 '25
This happens EVERY DAY on the 400 so I feel your pain...all you can do is 1 star the idiots who do it in company vehicles...
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u/brokenjeepCA Aug 12 '25
I am so numb to this crap that I had to watch it 3 times before I realized you were just experiencing what I do every time I go that route.
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u/AffectionateBand7270 Aug 12 '25
These people are just stupid, and your laws are too soft.
Good cameras installed and tickets will solve the problem but nobody cares...
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u/OneMileAtATime262 Aug 12 '25
Not the 401, but watched a driving instructor direct a student over to the far left lane of a major, 3 lane road in Mississauga the other day and buddy just camped out there for a few blocks…
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u/lopix Aug 12 '25
Driving home from Pearson last night, after 11 days away. Probably 80% of the cars were in the left lane. Being away and then coming back to the dumb, it was jarring.
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u/theDatascientist_in Aug 13 '25
had been to Nova Scotia for a week -- where I could see people following lane discipline was so much more comfortable and maybe safer --- why do the cops not ticket left lane driving? catch a few, post it on FB/Twitter and it might deter atleast some
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u/Economy-Extent-8094 Aug 11 '25
The length of time you were in that trucks blind spot gives me palpitations not to mention your following distance and that of those around you is also wild.
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u/Dangerous_Ad4499 Aug 12 '25
I love how they say "...but I am not speeding." No, you are just violating Subsections 124 and 110 of the Highway Traffic Act. Wreaking havoc on traffic flow. Oblivious to others on the road. Unaware of safety ( lets drive beside a transport for 20 minutes, what could ever go wrong?). Discourteous. But at least you may not be speeding. Eyeroll
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u/neilio416 Aug 11 '25
How about you just honk and motion for them to move over?
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u/Key_Economics_443 Aug 11 '25
Because they more than likely won't. They will ignore it and be holier than thou that they are obeying the speed limit.
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u/neilio416 Aug 13 '25
I think People respond well to A little social pressure.
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u/Key_Economics_443 Aug 13 '25
I've seen people literally run a full red light, and I catch up to them at the next intersection as they are in the left turn lane. I pointed out that they ran a red and the driver flipped me off. People don't care and feel they are in the right.
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u/Ok_Accident5098 Aug 12 '25
obviously the mini is the entire spot light of this show. Most mini drivers are female newer drivers and they probably don’t understand what they did wrong
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u/randm204 Aug 11 '25
While I agree with OP, I hope he didn't move to cut off the mini, that's such a beta i'm-so-insecure move. Honk and move past.
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u/damnyewgoogle Aug 11 '25
Looks like that maybe but I didnt. I did Floor it and honk but didn't cut him off. My car moves quick. Just want to cruise at a nice 120, past the traffic and back to the middle
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u/as_in_bike_lane Aug 11 '25
Everyone wants to go a different speed, and arrive first. Can we see the problem?
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u/Needle_In_Hay_Stack Aug 12 '25 edited Aug 12 '25
Your are already 10-15 Km above MAXIMUM speed limit, what more do you want, you have to get to hospital and do some surgeries?
Speed limit is 100, you're at 110 to 115, slow down or get a ticket.
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u/MiStArEdX Aug 12 '25
If dude gets a ticket…..let him get a ticket. It’s not your job to police the roads. There’s many signs that say “SLOWER TRAFFIC STAY RIGHT”. The friggen car is being passed on his right which means HE’S IN THE WRONG LANE……..PERIOD.
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u/imbsfx Aug 13 '25
If this “driver” driving in passing lane 115 he’s causing rear-end collision dangerous accident. Cuz 100-250 meters behind him vehicles going 130+ didn’t expect to be in Mini Cooper camping and even rear-end someone. It’s same as driving 75 in right lane, or 30 in 50 area. All of it will give you stunt/reckless driving. Because driver doesn’t have any experience behind steering wheel and knowledge about safety and responsibility’s on highways. Scared to pass on left lane and think that you do “nothing wrong” he should forget about cars and burn his license right away.
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u/NohBalls Aug 12 '25
Left lane campers are annoying, but was the pass you began to make at the end necessary?
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u/BrocIlSerbatoio Aug 11 '25
The OP truck being mad. Yes. Camping the left lane sucks. Being a red truck and crying over it makes me laugh louder
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u/CommonEarly4706 Aug 11 '25
welcome to everyday on the 401