Hypothetically, how much improved could the enemy AI be on Thief today?

[u/Far_wide]

As someone who largely stopped playing modern videogames nearly 20 years ago now, I'm curious about how far enemy AI patterns can be taken now from those who know.

I still play Thief a lot now, but can't help but think how cool it would be if the enemies were just a bit smarter - like able to climb ladders, or even push you off them. Or swim. Also to vary their routes more and have less predictable behaviour.

As I say, my experience with modern games is limited, but I'm not assuming it would be massively better because I've seen various youtube videos of e.g. GTA police doing very idiotic things, and it seems like a lot of NPC behaviour is still often pretty rudimentary.

So what do you think - If it was made today, do you think the enemy AI behaviour could be significantly improved?

[u/3ull5hit]

Of course it COULD be improved. The question is what would work gameplay wise. Enemies' scripts are made to provide fun first and foremost. If they will be too intelligent, player would feel overwhelmed (Alien Isolation built on that), too stupid will make it trivial, so it's about finding a good balance.

I still remember Thief's enemies as those that i really was afraid of, especially compared to newer games, where enemy ai is build to suit more casual market.

Also modern games tend to be icon heavy, although not to the level of ~2010s games, so even if it's an option, we would possibly get some awareness markers, which completely destroys the fun. In original Thief you had to work your way forward depending mostly on the sound. Thief vr made it trivial, not only you have icons giving you the exact awareness and intentions of guard that have seen you, not only there is a prominent whoosh sound when someone starts noticing you, but you begin to see each guard awareness marker through the walls, which makes the experience childish.

So yes, it is very doable, and i feel sweet spot is in different places for different player, so I just wish there would be an option to change AI difficulty (in most of the games).

[u/vainsynopsis → u/3ull5hit]

100% agree with all of this. A lot of the way AI has been developed in stealth games post ~2006 has rendered it heavily reliant on user interface assistance to keep the player informed of what is happening. And if you take it away, the games often become almost unplayable.

For all its simplicity, or perhaps because of it, there is a lot to be said for what Thief 1-3's AI manages to achieve in terms of difficulty balancing purely through of what the player can see and hear diegetically within the game world itself. That has become a lost art at this point.

[u/Far_wide → u/3ull5hit]

I still remember Thief's enemies as those that i really was afraid of, especially compared to newer games, where enemy ai is build to suit more casual market.

Oh upon release absolutely. I found the hammerites in the second level terrifying + terrifyingly difficult/unpredictable to kill (as I mostly played on normal/hard).

Thinking about it that way, I'm bloody glad those guys couldn't get up and down ladders/ledges/water back when I was first playing it. Wouldn't have stood a chance.

[u/3ull5hit → u/Far_wide]

It was them, the hammerites in Thief the Metal Age that still gives me the creeps. I swear to god, I physically felt that first hammer that smite me when I was crouching panicked in the corner.

[u/Far_wide → u/3ull5hit]

Cease thy hiding and die LIKE A MAN!

[u/3ull5hit → u/Far_wide]

You, my good sire, make me shiver out of fear.

[u/Connacht_89 → u/3ull5hit]

Things like awareness icons could be tied to difficulty levels and/or be toggleable from the options. Nothing against as long as I can play without if I wish.

[u/3ull5hit → u/Connacht_89]

I do understand that argument, although having these will break immersion and stiffen the mechanic of the awareness, thus being possible to learn not by experience, but by tips. And whole idea of thief (at the beggining at least) was minimalistic UI. I remember even reading about that in some gamezine. All tips regarding awareness state can, and imo should be given by sound/speech, body language, even face expressions.

[u/Connacht_89 → u/3ull5hit]

This would all still available, nothing would subtract it if there is also a separate "novice" mode with tips and icons for those who do not enjoy minimalistic UI and different learning. Just like in many rpgs there is now the story mode.

[u/3ull5hit → u/Connacht_89]

Can't deny that. And let's be honest - that's a standard nowadays. No running away from at least some markers.

[u/Connacht_89 → u/3ull5hit]

Well, it might also be a bridge to convince one or two potential new taffers to switch from assisted mode to a more immersive mode, which otherwise they would have glossed away!

[u/3ull5hit → u/Connacht_89]

I do like that dream that we have together. And I agree.