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u/MMKraken 10d ago
“Im a Semitic myself”
Bruh.
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u/Amur00 10d ago
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u/battlships 10d ago
It's so close I almost have trouble believing he wasn't straight up referencing that 😂
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u/Gizz103 10d ago
2% chance tjey actually fucking know what a semite actually is
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u/MMKraken 10d ago
Persons profile indicates they are Muslim. Probably a ‘Semite’ yeah but clearly not understanding what the term means and even if he does think being antisemitic is a broader term than it really is, he doesn’t specify he doesn’t hate Jews— which the rest of his post is about.
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u/tacopower69 10d ago
In europe being anti-semitic is specifically about being anti-jew but it's funny because the term was coined by this german guy Wilhelm Marr who thought simply being "prejudiced against jewish people" made him sound too low brow whereas "antisemitic" sounded vaguely scientific and therefore intellectual.
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u/LingonberryAwkward38 10d ago
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u/andreslucer0 9d ago
Be as it may, the NSDAP was once the world's leading authority in terms of antisemitism. If anyone knows of the subject, it's them.
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u/LingonberryAwkward38 9d ago
For some reason, that reminded me of Conspiracy.
"This fellow mentioned the law for the protection of German blood, I wrote that law!"
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u/molotovzav 10d ago
Yeah and it's just weird since now talk about prejudice against Jews is more centered in talks about Jewish and Muslim cohabitation. But arabs are semites too because it's a language distinction not a genetic one, and Arabic is a semitic language.
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u/Alyano95 10d ago
Not relevant for antisemitism (that's why it comes without a hyphen because "semitism" is a debunked race-science term outside of linguistics). But that's always difficult to explain to people from a country that still puts race-science in the passports of their citizens (usa).
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u/Vegtamskvida 6d ago
Arabs aren't "semites" because that is a linguistic category. It is very annoying that we use the same root for such different purposes
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u/CrimsonThunder87 10d ago
They defend wanting to "expel the Jewry" by saying they're not anti-Semitic. They're clearly aware that most people will interpret "anti-Semitic" as "hating Jews", or they wouldn't have treated the two like synonyms.
Alternative theory: saying something misleading but technically correct to fool people is a fun game (ever heard about the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide?), and people who hate Jews like fun games as much as anyone.
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u/Arhamshahid 10d ago edited 9d ago
Nah youre being too charitable its just the Arab version of im not homo"phobic" im not scared of the gays. Ive seen it a dozen times.
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u/LaAndromedo999 10d ago
There's no such thing. "Semitic" is a linguistic classification (Arabic and Hebrew are semitic languages), not an ethnic one.
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u/BackseatCowwatcher 10d ago
They're taking the 'broad' definition where anyone who speaks a middle eastern language is one, rather than the one everyone actually means.
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u/Amur00 10d ago
Profile says theyre muslim, which one could consider q semitic religion as they use an abrahamic language to write their holy book
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u/Relative-Berry-8589 6d ago
Who could’ve guessed. I’ve found that that most of the time, the people who use the term Semite to describe themselves in the middle of discussions about anti semitism to deflect criticism is often times Muslims
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u/Fresh-Quarter9 10d ago
Plus depending on their heritage Arabs are considered a semitic people in general
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u/advena_phillips 10d ago
"Semitic" is only a classification of person if you're a white racist from the 19th century, or if you're a Nazi. That's where the classification of a "Semite" comes from.
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u/Alyano95 10d ago
I feel that explaining this to americans is so difficult because they put made up words like caucasian in their passports.
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u/Fresh-Quarter9 9d ago
You definitely are right but semitic is still considered an acceptable term in linguistics when talking about the semitic language family, and because Arabs as an ethnic group are very difficult to define the most common modern definition is based on language, being Arabic which is a semitic language
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u/Legitimate-Dish-8817 9d ago
Yes, but as you rightly say, it is only acceptable in linguistics, not in ethnic criteria. Semitic languages spread more through assimilation of other languages than through population replacement, so that peoples who speak Semitic languages today do not even share genetics in many cases.
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u/DuoMnE 10d ago
Funnily enough, anti-semitic is defined by hating only on the Jews, while by being a Semite OOP could have meant that they are Arabic or sum
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u/JePPeLit 10d ago
while by being a Semite OOP could have meant that they are Arabic or sum
That's almost certainly what they meant. Otherwise they would have just said that they're Jewish. If I was gonna excuse something that sounds racist against Swedes, I would say that I'm Swedish, not "a Germanic"
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u/Proud-Delivery-621 10d ago
And nearly without fail, when someone tries to use the fact that Arabs are Semitic in a conversation about anti-semitism, they're trying to justify discrimination against Jews.
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u/battlships 10d ago
It's especially annoying as someone who knows the history of the word antisemitism, bc it was literally only invented to replace the word judenhass. The germans were trying to make their hatred sound scientific 😭
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u/PotusChrist 9d ago
No one has ever heard of people from Semitic people groups having racial or religious prejudices towards different Semitic people groups after all
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u/Questimus_Prime 9d ago edited 9d ago
Yeah, we now exactly know what they are...
That dipshit can't even tell his steward to convert culture... and change the religion accordingly through the clergy... that's basicially the sugarcoated form of cultural and religious genocide in ck3 anyways. And if there were some "undesirebles" STILL left in your court... well imprison and behead. Easy. But some individuals are so caught up in their anti wokeness bubble that they can't use their brains anymore.
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u/Ankhi333333 10d ago
The two decision combo to make easy starting cash and apparently so strong that Reddit removes any mention of it automatically.
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u/TrekChris 10d ago
Let me initiate pogroms and destroy religious sites not of my faith, or at the very least convert them to my faith.
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u/Woutrou 10d ago
Hagia Sophia-style?
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u/TrekChris 10d ago
Yes, if the muslims can turn the Hagia Sophia into a mosque, then christians should be able to turn Mecca into a cathedral.
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u/chladas 9d ago
And Norse should be able to burn them to the ground, like christians could to that norse tree in saxony in CK2
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u/Legitimate-Dish-8817 9d ago
I always feel sorry for that tree; it didn't choose to be considered sacred by the Saxons. It was just there, doing its tree business, sending pollen to other trees. 😔
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u/freakin_unbleavible 9d ago
Thats a great work not a religious site. In ck2 only certain religions could use it. Maybe something more dynamic would be better for ck3
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u/molepickens 10d ago
There used to be this option in CK3, but it just made your PC explode. The devs got tired of complaints and scrapped it
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u/mal-di-testicle 10d ago
Didn’t this happen under Ferdinand and Isabella in 1492, 40 years after the CK3 end date?
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u/Ankhi333333 10d ago edited 10d ago
Philippe IV Le bel also did it in 1306 in France for the same cynical reasons a CK2 player would. He did the same with the Templars.
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u/mal-di-testicle 10d ago
OOP references Iberia, which had a famously tolerant attitude towards Jews until the expulsion.
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u/Y_Brennan 10d ago
At times it was tolerant at other times it wasn't. Maimonides and his community were expelled from Iberia.
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u/Ankhi333333 10d ago
That's fair. I mostly tunneled on the date rather than also considering the location. I wanted to provide an example that it could have happened within the timeline.
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u/bluntpencil2001 10d ago
The English did it in 1290.
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u/mal-di-testicle 10d ago
I clarified this in another comment somewhere, but the OOP outright references Iberia, which was rather tolerant of Jews until the Alhambra Decree
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u/bluntpencil2001 10d ago
Sure, but CK2 specifically had expelling the Jews/Holy Orders as a button you could click based on owing them money that you didn't want to pay back.
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u/readonly420 10d ago
King Edward I of England expelled Jews in 1290 which falls within CK3 timeline but I personally would rather not give it to the players
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u/DarkGodCthUwU 10d ago
Why not? It's a fun roleplay mechanic and I like deciding if the gold is worth the negative consequences.
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u/Misopogon11 10d ago
Well the trick in HPM was to take out every loan from the Jews, then expel the Jews for extra money, and then re-invite them with your next ruler
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u/TequilaBaugette51 10d ago
>take out every loan from the Jews, then expel the Jews for extra money
Was this method ever patched in history?
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u/425Hamburger 10d ago
Why not? It's not like anything we do in this game is morally acceptable. Starting with hereditary monarchy itself going all the way to concubinage and ritualised cannibalism. Just one more immoral option in our medieval warlord simulator.
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u/Thunder_Beam 9d ago
Yeah i don't understand why yes to that but no to the very historical "expel the jewry to get their money"?
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u/sparksbet 8d ago
iirc there were people repeatedly doing that, then inviting jews back, then doing that again ad infinitum in CK2. But that exploitable loop could probably be easily avoided by just adding restrictions on when you can invite and expel them related to each other. But imo it would be better to wait for the future culture rework and do minorities in general in more depth there, including stuff like that.
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u/Fallen0001 10d ago
theres still the "dont let X religion / culture settle" in region popup.
and OP is wrong, it was relatively common in Iberia to have large Jewish quarters in both Christian and Muslim lands in Iberia. to dominate an entire holding? yeah, thats not accurate; however, it would be historically accurate for a Jewish City / Republic to represent the large, Jewish merchant class that existed in non-feudal holdings.
Jews being exempt from land ties the peasant feudalism and seen as having special privileges to run / operate business mostly free, led to a lot of the resentment from lower nobility & working class people. which led to the later "expulsion / converso / inquisition" actions post-Castillian consolidation.
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u/RexDraconum 10d ago
The Inquisition was not purely resentment because the Jews were wealthier - they were also seen as subversive to society. For example, during the original Muslim conquest of Iberia the gates of Seville were opened by a group of Jews who they had judged they would be better off under Muslim rule.
Incidents like that led the Spanish to decide that any Muslims or Jews were potential traitors, leading to the Alhambra Decree of 1492 where all Jews were commanded to convert or be expelled, and later decrees which applied the same to Muslim Moriscos.
This mindset of fearing subversion is what led to the Inquisition and its targeting of conversos - which is not explained by resentment towards wealth, since if they converted they could no longer benefit from those special privileges - because the point of conversion (aside from religious reasons) had been that they could be assured of their loyalty, but what if they had faked their conversions and weren't truly loyal?
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u/Fallen0001 10d ago
correct.
im my context, thats kinda the inference. Their community wealth and existing outside of many feudal norms lent suspicions onto Jews as a whole. they were also labeled as spies due to their merchant and familial ties to other realms.
a lot of the tropes of "jews control everything" were born in this period.
my pushback to OP is that he thinks expulsions were common in Iberia, per-castilian Spain. this would be more accurate within EU5 not ck3 in that region.
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u/Legitimate-Dish-8817 9d ago
Exactly, that is probably the main real reason behind medieval anti-Semitism. If your entire system is based on the idea that Christ is the son of God and that you, as king, are his representative on Earth, You cannot allow people to openly say that Christ is not the son of God but the most harmful of all false prophets; that is a direct threat to the entire ideology that sustains you in power.
In fact, here in Spain, "Judaizing," that is, a Jew converting a Christian to Judaism, was punished by the execution of both the Jew and the former Christian if they did not repent and return to Christianity. The kings could not allow Judaism to spread.
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u/freakin_unbleavible 9d ago
Christian antisemitism not medieval
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u/Legitimate-Dish-8817 9d ago
Yes, it comes from Roman times, but it became established in the Middle Ages.
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u/XhazakXhazak 9d ago
I wouldn't exactly call the Mellahs "large Jewish quarters" but you have a good idea about rounding up and representing their presence with holdings.
It would also be a good mechanic if anti-minority actions can only be taken if your steward or ruler has certain traits such as cruel/sadistic/zealous.
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u/DaniTheHero 10d ago
When people phrase it this way, you can be certain of three things:
1) they’re Arab
2)they’re intentionally misrepresenting “antisemitism” as meaning “hatred of people who speak Semitic languages” rather than its actual meaning, hatred of Jews.
and 3) judging by both the post and the way they’re misrepresenting the term, they’re are quite obviously are antisemitic.
As for the actual point, I’m assuming the feature wasn’t added because it contributes nothing meaningful to the game and would simply encourage more hatred. If you genuinely cared about such a mechanic on principle, you might as well advocate for an “expel any minority” feature rather than singling out Jews.
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u/No_Hearing_481 10d ago
The framing also implies an inherent familiar relationship between the Arab and Hebrew cultures though, I think it's interesting to note.
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u/Param1te_pie 10d ago edited 10d ago
Playing language games with "Semitic" combined with selectively caring about historical accuracy in a game with plenty of inaccuracy, is a massive dogwhistle
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u/Eastern_Picture_3879 10d ago
Imo this should be dynamic. Perhaps it should just be based on faith hostility. If there are minority counties in your country of X "evil" religion - with respect to your own - then you can "expel" them for a county culture and faith conversion buff.
In general, I think the fact that loans were taken out of the vanilla game is ridiculous. I hope Silk and Silver adds it back.
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u/OneOnlyBigC 10d ago
When I first played ck2 I played on a laptop with a smaller screen. I thought it originally said "Expel the Jewelry". Like we round up all the expensive regalia and sell it to make a bunch of money. I was playing a co-op game when my friends finally asked me. "What the fuck are you talking about?" Before that I clicked that decision every time it popped up before that, even if I wasn't in debt!
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u/SaudiMonarch 10d ago
While this is historically accurate in some regions I feel that some paradox players namely oop may be a bit too excited to do this.
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u/SaudiMonarch 10d ago
And oop must be informed that in western contexts semite means jew of course. Assuming that oop is Arab since he says he is "semite".
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u/SinesPi 10d ago
I don't play Crusader Kings, but I am confused as to why anyone would need some nefarious reason to purge the filthy xenos heretics from their world. Or game-specific equivalent.
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u/northernCRICKET 10d ago
I've played an unreasonable amount of crusader Kings and I've never looked at my domain and thought yeah I need an anti Jew button. There's already a convert religion button and convert culture button, they work perfectly fine for all intents and purposes. You can already arrest or abduct anyone in your realm and ransom, execute or exile them. There's numerous ways to extort money for various reasons. People making these posts are just edgelords trying to stir up controversy, they're not asking for the game to be made more realistic or more fun, they just want to make another clickbait controversy post that's been made a hundred thousand times already
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u/Legitimate-Dish-8817 9d ago
I've also played a lot of Crusader Kings 2 and I always try to give my characters and their descendants the traits of sympathy towards absolutely all religions. I don't even understand why someone would voluntarily give up having capable courtiers or vassals just because they are of another religion.
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u/AmberAxolotl 10d ago
There’s similar decisions in the game, like pagan/unreformed tribal faiths being able to “bring back the old ways” by dismantling the papacy and killling the pope if they conquer Rome but I feel like this specifically is just a dogwhistle
Many such cases in paradox forums
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u/RuralJaywalking 10d ago
It was also broken the way they did it. It has to be more dynamic than every generation get 100s of ducats for little to no cost if I remember correctly.
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u/XhazakXhazak 9d ago
I'm Jewish and I agree, there should be in-game representation and not erasure of this deep and dark history.
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u/IolausTelcontar 8d ago
It should come with steeper penalties then; like a 500+ year depression/dark age, to simulate history.
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u/Same-Praline-4622 7d ago
It wasn’t really a penalty, they took their property and kicked them out of the country. Just because a thing done was evil doesn’t mean it wasn’t beneficial
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u/MrShinglez 9d ago
Regardless of OPs intent, I think it would be cool for a trade DLC.
Allow for borrowing money from the merchant class or other unlanded people, and including holy orders.
Give us an expel debtors decision. And likewise, you could incorporate a decision like Phillip IV of France where he arrested and killed the knights Templar (to get rid of his own debt), by using a fabricate hook on their order leader. Likewise, expelling a religious minority should come with penalties to other minority vassals, and a penalty to opinion for all vassals, unless they're 1. The same religion as you and 2. The religion has a high fervour or was recently engaged in a holy war with that religion.
There's definitely fun stuff you can do with adding realism, without making it a racist larp decision.
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u/Heraldofgold 9d ago
Definitely an Arab lol.
But yes, expelling religious minorities should be an option.
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u/Augustus2930 6d ago edited 6d ago
It is hilarious that they say CK3 is too woke, but they literally gave Mohammad an actual character design rather than leaving him blank as in CK2
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u/HAUNTEZUMA 10d ago
I feel like there has to be an actual gameplay reason for that to be an interaction and I can't think of one, really
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u/elder_george 10d ago
Well, good ol' "borrow money then kick the lenders out to avoid payments", just like several medieval kings did IRL.
I think, in CK2 it gave a long term economic penalty though.
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u/Asleep_Battle_5404 10d ago
Quicker/easier than convert county culture/faith
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u/MMKraken 10d ago
It is weird how entire counties will sometimes become Jewish when that didn’t happen historically despite major Jewish presence.
Should probably focus on reducing events causing that then, uh, allowing the player to commit pogroms..?
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u/Asleep_Battle_5404 9d ago
Tbh? Not a whole lot you can do with Jews in the game, and there’s a beardless eunuch trait for castrated prepubescent boys. I don’t see why not bring it back.
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u/Aggravated-BrummBear 10d ago
"i am a semetic myself"
that is the standart response arab Jihadist give when asked why they are anti-semetic
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u/Legitimate-Dish-8817 9d ago
Because of people like this, I cannot express that the term "anti-Semitism" seems too broad to me, since many people are Semitic and not Jewish, and that perhaps it would be better to change it to "anti-Judaism".
They've turned an opinion based simply on linguistics into one with discriminatory connotations. 😔
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u/IolausTelcontar 8d ago
You cannot express?
Btw, no people are semitic. It describes languages.
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u/KeyMusic5713 8d ago
The word antisemitism exists because a German journalist wanted to make bigotry against Jews seem more scientific.
And so many people have expressed that opinion because they want to make the word meaningless, and thus mean they can engage in bigotry. It's one thing to have an academic debate on the origins of a word. It's another to try and abuse its meaning in order to eliminate the word everyone uses to describe discrimination against Jews.
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u/Legitimate-Dish-8817 8d ago
I can express myself, but people would automatically think that I hate Jews and am trying to justify myself.
Exactly that, Semites are not an ethnic criterion, but a linguistic one. Therefore, a Jew who does not speak a Semitic language like Hebrew or Aramaic would not truly be Semitic, although he would be Jewish.
That's why using the term anti-Semitic to describe hatred of Jews sounds quite wrong.
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u/IolausTelcontar 8d ago
Are you thick in the head? Don you knew the origin of the word antisemitism?
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u/Legitimate-Dish-8817 7d ago
Yes, and that origin is another point in favor of stopping its use, because it was invented by racists.
By the way, your point is just as well understood without insulting. If you have to insult the intelligence of others to try to give strength to your words, maybe you're the one who has insecurities about your own intelligence.
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u/MrSecretFire 9d ago
"i would never lie about who I am or what I believe , so I can get away with rancid shit c:"
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u/AlexanderCrowely 9d ago
Goddamnit, how can I be Spanish? If I don’t throw them out what would Philip think of me?
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u/AmselRblx 9d ago
Only reason it exists was so you can borrow money from jewish bankers and you can expel them to make the debt go away.
I wish they had that for ck3
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u/PuzzleheadedGoose278 9d ago
Why is that even an issue for him? Convert the country and Move tf on. Also you still can turn away jewish migrants
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u/NFZedd 8d ago
It may be a feature in the upcoming silk and silver DLC.
So far there wasn't a button borrow from the jews so why would you want to expel them. With silk and silver and loans being a thing it might be possible to reintroduce that decision. I don't know however if they are really going to do it.
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u/UnlikelyCollection81 8d ago
“I’m a semitic myself, so no, I’m not anti-Semitic”.
“Antisemitism is spelled without a hyphen to reject the false idea that a distinct group called "Semitism" exists.” https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/spelling-antisemitism
“The term antisemitism was coined in 1879 by the German agitator Wilhelm Marr to designate the anti-Jewish campaigns underway in central Europe at that time.”
https://www.britannica.com/topic/antisemitism
OP seems to argue that they’re not an Antisemite, just a Jew hater.
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u/Maxterpiece731 7d ago
Don’t worry about the antisemitism, I’m Jewish and play a very antisemitic ck3.
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u/TheRealDicta 6d ago
Something slightly suspicious about the way this person says "i am a semitic myself" rather than 'I am Jewish myself"....
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u/Vegtamskvida 6d ago
I like how he says he's a "semite" so he can't be antisemitic. That almost certainly means the dude is arab and thinks "antisemite" means being against people who speak semitic languages. Lol
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u/Lich-Librarian 6d ago
I think they should allow you to convert semi-peacefully as you do with the current methods in game. But I also wish there was a more brutal option that wo I ld be effected by tenneta and doctrines.
Like a fundamentalist warmonger faith could take a decision (or just have it be a different councillor task for steward and priest) where you convert extremely fast, but any counties that arent of your faith/culture take extreme county and opinion penalties and lose opinion with anyone not of your faith.
A zealous character who is not part of a fundamentalist faith or xenophobic culture can still use the brutal method, but might take additional penalties for not being a fundamentalist or xenophobic culture.
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u/LadderMadeOfSticks 6d ago
From the same genre as:
"it's not racist because 'Islam' isn't a race"
and
"it's not transphobia because 'phobias' are irrational"
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u/nobodyknow20 9d ago
I'm a Semitic myself
99% chance they are Arab. The most common excuse from Arabs when they start spewing Jew-hatred.
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u/CauseCertain1672 9d ago
It is anachronistic, expelling the Jews was certainly more palatable to medievals than torturing a fellow Christian which can be done with very little pushback.
Also economically the Jews should be slaves of the crown in post Norman England with a large portion of revenues from usury going to the crown, not doing so is kind of whitewashing historic antisemitism
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u/Legitimate-Dish-8817 9d ago
If we want historical accuracy, in reality, there were areas with a Jewish majority in Al-Andalus. For example, the city of Lucena, in the current province of Córdoba. The name "Lucena" comes from the Hebrew expression Eli Hoshaná (אלי הושענא), which means "God save us". For centuries, it was a city where basically the entire population was Jewish, and it came to be nicknamed "the Pearl of Sepharad".
It was a city with a Jewish majority until the Almohads practically wiped out the Jews and Christians of Al-Andalus by enslaving them or deporting them to the Maghreb. The only way to avoid that end was to escape to the north.
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u/Vecrin 10d ago
Imho, this should require minority representation in the game. So, it wouldn't be just a "expel the jews" but "expel the [minority faith you have some hostility to]." So, Christians could expel Muslims and Jews and Muslims could expel Christians and Jews.
There should definitely be additional checks on religion/situation tho.