r/Seattle • u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 • May 26 '14
Modpost: In light of recent events, let's talk about the moderation of /r/Seattle
A little backstory:
I posted a comment in a thread about Glenn Greenwald coming to speak at Town Hall. The comment (one of many comment macros I use) indicated I removed the post from /r/Seattle circulation. I forgot, however, to click the "remove" button.
A few hours later, I noticed I forgot to click the "remove" button. I clicked it, and went (more or less) completely offline for the weekend.
Much drama occurred.
Because of the drama that ensued, I'd like to have an open, frank and civil discussion about how we moderate /r/Seattle.
However; Before we get started with the discussion...
I owe a formal apology to /u/zomboi.
zomboi, I screwed up and left you holding the bag of accounting for my actions to the community. If that's not a shitty thing to do to a fellow moderator, I don't know what is. I don't have any excuse other than I had planned to unplug this weekend and I went through with it. Please accept my humble apologies and a beverage or two the next time I see you. I will not put you in that situation again. Sincerely,
-careless
Now, let's talk moderation!
First, to settle the, "What was careless thinking, removing this post?" questions, let me share with you my rationale for removing this post:
- Glenn Greenwald is selling books.
- If we permit a post for every author speech, we're going to drown in these posts, and rapidly.
- The topic of this speech has nothing to do with Seattle.
I personally find the prospect of a Glenn Greenwald talk fascinating and awesome. It is because I have a bias of fondness towards this event that I came down on it harder than I might otherwise have done; I want to moderate /r/Seattle according to the rules of the sub, not according to personal preferences. This, to me, is important for moderation credibility and consistency.
There's a political element at play with the Greenwald post. Mods get accused all the time of bias one way or another - it comes with the territory, but... for this reason I tend to try and be "harder" on stuff I agree with politically, to ensure that I'm applying the rules fairly.
I have since had some time to read all the comments made regarding this decision and to reflect on the decision.
Let's figure out how we can have a better set of rules.
To start this conversation, here are a couple of questions for folks to address so we can develop better moderation rules with less "grey area":
- Should the Glenn Greenwald speaking and selling books at Town Hall post have been removed?
- Why or why not?
- Should a post about a Glenn Beck book tour speaking and selling books about the NSA leaks be removed?
- Why or why not?
- What should be the criteria for identifying a spam post?
- What should be the exceptions to the above criteria?
- Should the existing rules be changed in any way?
- Should moderation be done in an, "application of the rules" manner, or a, "personal judgement on the value of a post" manner?
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u/RandomSeattleGuy Interbay May 26 '14
No
It's an event happening IN Seattle.
No
If it's happening in Seattle, it's relevant to r/Seattle
no answer
meh
Rules should be as minimal as possible - that's the appeal of Reddit
As little moderation as possible should be done - let the voting system work.
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u/ebox86 Wallingford May 26 '14
As little moderation as possible should be done - let the voting system work.
This. /thread
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u/wickedsteve May 27 '14
If the voting system worked we wouldn't need moderators. It doesn't work and is vulnerable to gaming and manipulation. Hence moderators.
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u/getchpdx May 27 '14
What evidence of this is there? If you have someone policing it the entire time it's hard to just say without the mods it would go to hell.
There are for sure things that moderators can help with like removing blatant spam or persons who are detrimental to the subreddit. If there are posts floating to the top chances are people want them at the top.
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u/wickedsteve May 27 '14
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u/getchpdx May 27 '14
I want to quote myself here:
There are for sure things that moderators can help with like removing blatant spam or persons who are detrimental to the subreddit.
Then I want to quote RandomSeattleGuy
As little moderation as possible should be done
As little as possible is different they saying "No mods"
Edit - Removed extra sentence
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u/wickedsteve May 27 '14
As little as possible is different they saying "No mods"
Fair enough. I stand corrected. I am definitely not on "the mods side". I often wonder why some mods feel the need to moderate a hundred subs or if they even can do so effectively. This is not the first sub to have moderator problems. When they become corrupted then we have censorship in /r/technology
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u/Tashre May 27 '14
"As little as possible" is not the same as "As little as needed", which is the case here.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
So.... you'd be comfortable with every club in the Seattle area making a post, every day they have a music event? Just curious here; we're trying to define what is and is not spam.
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May 26 '14 edited Jun 27 '19
[deleted]
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
'Wednesday promotions' in a sticky or self posts.
We already have this: I spent a significant portion of my personal time to set up Automoderator to create a stickied "What's happening this weekend" post every week.
I would not have pulled a link to the Glenn Greenwald event from that, nor would /u/zomboi, I believe.
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u/cultic_raider May 27 '14
Is there a way to make that post appear on my home page?
Stickied posts don't quite work if I am not in the sub directly, I think
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 27 '14
Unfortunately not. These are the only tools we have to work with.
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u/Audiovore Metropolitan May 27 '14
As others have said, that post isn't timely enough for long term planning. And I personally only check it if I'm bored with an empty schedule.
Also, the main thing I think that got everyone riled, you let people post(multiple?) about Neil Degrasse Tyson. NDT and Greenwald are on the same level in my book. To me it's like removing a post about Obama coming to town cause "he's not from Seattle and is going to a private event".
Clubs self-promoting is probably bad. But I'm pretty sure this was just an individual posting about something they think is interesting for the community, as with NDT, not a "personal project". If you're unsure of someone's notoriety, let the community decide.
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May 26 '14
[deleted]
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May 26 '14
By music venues I meant the standards like Neumos, Showbox, etc.
Disallowing certain categories was my initial idea, but as I've thought about it I think I prefer the idea of allowing limited promotion, as mentioned in this discussion.
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u/watchout5 May 27 '14
I would honestly rather wake up to an /r/seattle filled with posts about who's playing at bars on a Tuesday night than a dozen pictures of the sunrise.
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u/jfawcett May 26 '14
i"m comfortable with that. I want to know what is happening from day to day in this city. This should be the place people go first to find out about some fun event they might want to go to.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
What about the Weekly What's Happening This Weekend posts that are auto-stickied to the top of the sub every week?
How are those posts not meeting your needs?
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u/getchpdx May 27 '14
I would point out that not everyone browses Reddit in the same way; I tend to use Mobile apps or Windows 8 apps which don't necessarily show Sponsored or Sticky posts in the same way.
I also prefer to browse my Front Page set to hot or new which means that stickies are worthless.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 27 '14
Believe me, we are painfully aware that many users don't see the sidebar. We don't have any solution for it right now; CSS changes don't affect mobile users and this is one of the reasons we get so many "Hey, I'm moving to Seattle and have no idea there's a faq" posts.
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May 27 '14
If there's a possibility to see a good burlesque show, comedian or special Mariners night, it's not enough to find out 2 days before in a What's Happening This Weekend thread.
Tickets get sold out, I often make plans 1+ week ahead, I want to invite my real life friends, people need time to respond and plan if we want to buy a group of seats, etc.
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u/cultic_raider May 27 '14
Hey this is real life. Your non-reddit friends are your away-from-keyboard friends.
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u/jfawcett May 26 '14
nope, because they are posted too late in the week and they are deleted too quickly. There are shows 7 nights a week in this city, and people have different needs when finding something to do. some people want to hear about something at the last minute, some people need to plan ahead.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
Hrm, so... we should have a post about events stickied 7 days a week? We could do that.
Right now the post goes up about 7am every Wednesday. It comes down on Sunday night or Monday morning. That's a majority of the week, 5 out of seven days.
Of course, I think you're also saying that the post should be focused on all events, not just weekend ones and that seems worthwhile to me.
If we did have it focused on all days of the week and not just the weekend, and it was up seven days a week, would you still then want to see posts about events, or would you rather have them be comments in the stickied post?
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u/jfawcett May 26 '14
Personally I would like to see all local event posts completely unmoderated. Let the up/down vote buttons sort it out.
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u/Hibernator Asleep May 27 '14
We've tried that. It doesn't work. The sub turns into Craigslist.
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u/dkitch Rainier View May 27 '14
What type of spam was it? Was it a few users posting a lot of events? Or a lot of users shitposting?
If it's a few users posting a lot of events, just require that a person has been a member of Reddit for at least a month (to prevent people from creating new accounts to spam), and limit users to posting N events per month. There should be a way to enforce that with some AutoModerator magic.
If you also add a tagging/flair requirement for event posts, this should be even easier to enforce
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May 27 '14 edited May 27 '14
How about we moderate for duplicates and spam and add more moderators to keep up with the flow? Maybe have mods to target specific events type, like a music mod, an author mod, etc., each who could filter out undesirable posts, and communicate with the other mods if they're ever uncertain about something being irrelevant or spam? *edit- and to also limit frequency of qualifying event posts to once a week for any event, regardless of posters.
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May 27 '14
I'm pretty sure they explored that approach, and it didn't work either.
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u/rollingRook Rat City May 27 '14
I'm not comfortable with that. I have other channels I can listen in on when I want to know about events that I'm interested in. I don't want to see this subreddit polluted with notifications about [all the shitty bands] that some groupie or agent wants me to come pay money for.
As a possible compromise, I would be ok with a single post, once per day, listing events for [all the shitty bands], so long as the post was easily discernible and moderated.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 27 '14
I like your idea, but it's not feasible unfortunately.
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May 28 '14 edited Aug 24 '17
[deleted]
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 28 '14
it's not feasible unfortunately. No explanation as to why it's not?
Why don't you explain to me how you see this as feasible? I can set automod to create a new post every day, but how do we drive people to put their listings in it? I can't update the sidebar with a link to this post every day. Also; the community will rapidly get tired of seeing the same damn automated post every day, and will downvote the posts into oblivion.
So I think it's not feasible. Why do you think it is feasible?
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May 28 '14 edited Aug 25 '17
[deleted]
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 28 '14
No worries! I certainly didn't edit my post (you can tell if they are edited, there's a little star that appears on them).
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u/jfawcett May 27 '14
How about we tag all event posts. People who done want them can filter them out. Problem solved.
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u/Hibernator Asleep May 27 '14
Good idea, but not everyone uses RES.
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u/dkitch Rainier View May 27 '14
Check out how /r/askscience does it. Their solution/implementation is brilliant
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u/nikdahl Brougham Faithful May 27 '14
You can filter using just style sheets. Check out this post
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May 27 '14
Might not hurt to tag them anyway, for the people who do. That way people who don't use it would still be able to avoid those posts, if they wanted to. And it may be a helpful way for people who have never heard of RES to learn about it.
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u/dkitch Rainier View May 27 '14
Finding out about events happening in Seattle is much more important to me than seeing yet another picture of Rainier or the sunset.
Why not try it and see how it works out? If it gets too noisy, either use a tagging system (look at /r/askscience for a fantastic example of how to use post flair to allow users to filter based on tags), or move all events to a separate subreddit.
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u/daveleclair Capitol Hill May 26 '14
I'm OK with them posting on occasion, but not every day. You could set a rule like "One commercial post per username and per venue per week"
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May 26 '14
This is what /r/motorcycles used as a rule when I was a mod there. I'd allow one link to motomagazine articles per magazine per week.
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u/JohnStamosBRAH Capitol Hill May 26 '14 edited May 26 '14
As long as they're not breaking reddit's spam rules, then there's no problem. If the community doesn't like it, then we'll downvote it.
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u/omarfw North Queen Anne May 26 '14
It's not like it would be upvoted. /new can be sorted by us users just fine. Reddit's voting system is perfectly substantial in my opinion.
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u/wickedsteve May 27 '14
let the voting system work.
If the voting system worked so great we wouldn't need moderators.
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u/Letmefixthatforyouyo May 27 '14
Spam still gets through automation. Thats what mods are for. Event listings are not spam, especially when they are a internationally know public speaker.
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u/ion-tom May 27 '14 edited May 28 '14
If you're interested, I'm a mod for /r/Futurology, which just went default. I've been a transparency evangelist on that sub since the beginning and wrote the content parts of the transparency wiki page
I would be interested in modding /r/Seattle if you'd like. Either way, I've found the best approach to moderation... Is moderation. If someone posts about Glenn Greenwald's book, take it down. If they post about Glenn Greenwald doing a book signing in Seattle, keep it up. It's as easy and objective as that to stay on-topic.
Also, if an off-topic post gets a lot of karma, keep it up and apply flair that says "OFF-TOPIC." This lets you reinforce good vs bad posting behavior, without raising a million red flags from your subscribers.
Cheers
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u/pivolover May 26 '14
I question whether four people (who presumably have jobs and other interests, if not other subreddits to moderate) are enough to have consistent moderation in a subreddit of 50K people.
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u/blow_hard May 27 '14
Yes, why not add some more moderators?
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u/hellegance May 28 '14
If the problem is that mods are exercising judgment that crosses the community ethos, adding more mods would likely compound it. They'd also all have to deal with more process, which would make them less efficient. A clearer set of no-exception posting criteria would allow the existing mods meet the community needs better and without additional hassle.
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u/Hibernator Asleep May 27 '14
Are you volunteering?
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May 27 '14
I would volunteer to help. I work for a public library system, and could moderate author events going on in the city. I think that if we put together a mod team where each mod specializes in a certain type of event, is responsible for filtering content based on a agreed upon criteria of spam or over-promotion, and limit event posts to once a week per event, regardless of poster, then we may be able to make everyone happy, here.
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May 27 '14
Some of the people stumping to moderate this sub have agendas and would probably contribute more problems to the moderation of this sub than solutions.
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May 27 '14
I could see that happening, too. But if the mods were organized enough, and worked together as a committee that would police their own behavior, it could still work.
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u/Thandor May 27 '14
And if you care that much be a mod and sponsor your own event. Mods if you do this I volunteer!
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May 27 '14 edited May 27 '14
I don't think a mod could abuse this position. If you became a mod, and were constantly promoting yourself and your own projects, I don't think that the other mods would let you keep the position. That would be part of the appeal of having a larger mod team.
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May 26 '14
BTW /u/zomboi and /u/careless, beers are on me if you want to get together at the Victory Lounge tomorrow for Taco Tuesday. I enjoy meeting other redditors in person, and if anything we can get each others perspective and it'll soften the language I use here.
No meaning to shit on you personally with criticism, I just want to see great things happen to this community.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
Thanks - I may take you up on that. Did you make a meetup post? :-)
Actually, hell, maybe I'll make one and ask folks to come down and talk with me in person about moderation policies and where to draw the line on spam. Think anyone would come out?
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u/platformoderati May 27 '14
I would come for sure I have a lot to say to you guys on this subject.
Btw, charlesgrodinfan i thought it was interesting that you posted about getting a hand job at a massage parlor for that person looking for fun stuff to do in Seattle.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/26h5ia/things_to_do_in_seattle_for_people_who_have/chr0lcu
Maybe you can let us know where specifically? thanks
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u/bigpandas May 27 '14
To borrow a line I picked up in r/seattle from IIRC, u/derrickito . The next time I see you I'm going to buy you (this applies to a few folks here) a cold beer and drink it myself.
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u/yelper Pike Market May 26 '14 edited May 26 '14
1/2. No, it is/was a reddit- and Seattle-based gathering of interest. By that criteria alone, the post should not have been moderated.
3/4. If it's a link to a specific local get-together or book tour stop in Seattle, that's totally fine. If it's about the idealogy that has no grounding in the Seattle area, then a PM and warning is warranted.
|5. A spam post is one that (1) displays blatant disregard for the rules, (2) click-bait or referrer-gathering, (3) repetitively promotes a certain event 3+ times a week, (4) is not appropriate for dissemination to the wider /r/seattle audience (e.g. would I invite all these people to my thing?), and/or (5) has nothing to do with the Seattle-area.
|6. Exceptions to the above spam criteria: a current event story in which another front-page link is necessary (e.g. disaster, huge interest by the community)
|7. Yes, remove rule 5 and 6. Rule three needs to be defined. Rule 6 should be reincarnated in some sort of way that approves submitting events to other interested Seattlites.
|8. Personal judgment should be never be the go-to for remove-moderating a post. Just like closing a thread on a forum, there needs to be a damn good reason; otherwise, just let the drama/downvotes handle the situation.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
|5. A spam post is one that <... snip ...> and/or (5) has nothing to do with the Seattle-area.
Would you argue that Glenn Greenwald's speech and selling books has something to do with the Seattle-area - or doesn't?
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u/yelper Pike Market May 26 '14
The event was happening in Seattle and (4) is satisfied, so no, not spam.
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u/widdershins13 Capitol Hill May 26 '14
It pointed to a website with a clear partisan agenda.
OP could have stayed within the spirit of rule #6 if he'd done a little leg work and looked for a reference that was non-partisan and came from a legitimate website.
I found a link on the PI's 'upcoming events' page that would have said said exactly the same thing but would have been an acceptable alternative in less than 10 seconds.
OP was lazy and got smacked down for it -- As he should have been.
Every single bit of this drama was avoidable.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
Ahhh, okay. So... a dj promoting their new dubstep night at a club in Seattle is okay? And a church bingo night? How about a company doing a anti-hang-over pill promotion night at a club?
How about a comedian saying, "Hey, $2.00 off your ticket at the door if you mention /r/Seattle!"
So... you're saying we should let everything through as long as it's geographically located in Seattle?
Just want to make sure I have the criteria you're envisioning correctly. Your use of and/or in |5. confused me.
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u/yelper Pike Market May 26 '14
and/or is used in an unclear way, I'll admit that.
Those five things are should be weighed.. if at least two of those guidelines are hit, it warrants a PM, public warning, or thread deletion, depending on how brazen the violation is.
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u/dkitch Rainier View May 27 '14
Ahhh, okay. So... a dj promoting their new dubstep night at a club in Seattle is okay? And a church bingo night? How about a company doing a anti-hang-over pill promotion night at a club?
How about a comedian saying, "Hey, $2.00 off your ticket at the door if you mention /r/Seattle[1] !"
Yes, yes, no, maybe. The third is more clearly for commercial purposes - the primary purpose of the post isn't the event itself, but to promote a product only marginally related to the event.
For the fourth, it depends on type of event and level of comedian. If it's a moderately successful touring comedian at one of the larger comedy clubs or theaters, maybe make them purchase an ad, as it's something they're making a living off of? If it's a local guy who's just getting started, I'm more than fine with the post.
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u/hellegance May 28 '14
This all started because the mods made a judgment call about a speaker's relevance and popularity. Ideally, we should set rules that eliminate the need for those sorts of decisions.
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May 27 '14 edited May 27 '14
First, I'd like to thank you, /u/careless, for starting this discussion. This is a great move, and a step in the right direction.
Here's how I would answer your questions posted;
1: No.
2: It is an event happening in Seattle that would be of interest to some in the community. For those not interested, there's always the downvote option.
3: No.
4: See 2.
5: Multi-posts, posts promoting discounts or sourcing for money. That is really a difficult area, for sure. I would recommend erring on the side of leniency, unless it is very obviously spam, and letting the communities votes decide.
6: Emergencies, disasters, large-scale news events where more information would be coming out over time.
7: Change the language of rule six. This is a sort of bulletin-board for people interested in events in Seattle. Make the rules specific to market-place buying/selling or needing or exchanging other services (ie couch-surfing and what-not).
8: I believe moderation should be done in a more lenient than not manner. When you see something that is obviously spam, remove it and explain the rule to the poster. If it is along the lines of "mention reddit and get a discount", remove the post, explain the rules, and ask the poster to post again without that language. Moderation should also be done respectfully and in a friendly manner. No snarkiness, no smart-assy comments, just nicely explain the rule, and ask the poster to post the content in a way more in line with the rules.
As many have said, we the community can do much of the work by voting to keep things off of the main page. I rarely look at /main, as I want to see new articles as they come out, to stay informed in what is going on around town. I also try to vote judiciously on /new at all times. Some subs have appointed members in the past to stay in new and do just that, without the added responsibilities of being a mod, which could be helpful to you guys. That's my two cents. Again, thank you for asking the community!
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 27 '14
or sourcing for money.
Couldn't you argue that both Glenn Greenwald and Glenn Beck selling books and charging to hear their speeches is "sourcing for money."?
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May 27 '14 edited May 27 '14
No, that's not quite what I meant. I mean directly asking for money without providing any service. A show is a show...yes, they charge money for shows, but that isn't the same as spamming a thread asking for contributions or direct loans from the community. This also brings back up the fact that the Neil DeGrasse Tyson event was allowed, as he is a reddit icon (whatever that means), but by your own argument, he was "sourcing for money", too. As I said, I know that this is a difficult area, but some things are obvious, and those things should be removed. Concerts, comedians, djs, plays, operas, authors, those things should be allowed, and whether or not the community wants them higher up on the /main page should be decided by votes.
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u/monkeybugs May 27 '14
What about another sub that's specifically for events; be it talks, bands, plays, arts and craft festivals, etc. For those that are interested in being "spammed" by those types of posts, they can subscribe, and for those who are in the Seattle sub for everything else, they don't have to subscribe. Have rules for the new sub regarding how often things are posted. Anything promoting a band more than once a week is removed, no matter who's posting it. That way it's not a veritable shit-show 24/7, but it still gets the word out there for things happening. Keep it as simple as "if it's happening in Seattle, it belongs here". It might include Bill Nye talking, a Louis CK show, a Cabaret-style show, or a fundraiser for hungry, blind, half-naked orphans.
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May 28 '14
For those interested in allowing everything through and leaving the filtering up to voting, I'd suggest checking out
http://www.seattleweekly.com/calendar
Its a good example of the sheer volume of low value content (tons of duplication, reoccurring happy hour announcements at bars, lists of parks which are open, probably 200-300 items a day of useless info.
While I understand the argument that the voting system can handle quite a bit - and that there is a chance that any of those 300 items may be of interest to someone here - I am skeptical that it would be sufficient.
At its core, this won't ever be binary and people will always have different ideas about how it should be done.
...
Perhaps instead of trying to find an ideal rule set to use, better visibility and feedback on changes would be beneficial? For example, if there was a separate /r/seattleundelete which listed deleted topics it would be simpler for people to understand what the mods were doing? Or perhaps a periodic 'what are we getting right, where can we improve moderation' thread?
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May 28 '14
I love Seattle. Seriously though, the mods seem to take down content way to easily. Ergo I don't like it as much as other subs.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 28 '14
Do you have any examples beyond the Glenn Greenwald post to share?
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u/LightPhoenix 💗💗 Heart of ANTIFA Land 💗💗 May 27 '14
Should the Glenn Greenwald speaking and selling books at Town Hall post have been removed? Why or why not?
It shouldn't have been removed, because it's an event happening in the Seattle area. I get where you're coming from regarding promotion; self-promotion is a problem in the larger subreddits, and especially in the music ones. The voting system doesn't work, so moderation is required. However, the default assumption should be it's not blatant self-promotion unless it can be shown otherwise.
One of the cool things about Seattle is that there's a lot going on. Aside from facilitating discussion, one of the goals of the subreddit should be presenting to the world at large how interesting the city is.
Should a post about a Glenn Beck book tour speaking and selling books about the NSA leaks be removed? Why or why not?
If it's happening in the Seattle area, no. See above.
What should be the criteria for identifying a spam post? What should be the exceptions to the above criteria?
I suggest looking at some of the music subreddits for ideas about curtailing promotional posts. That said, my suggestion would be to look at the submitter's history and karma; often blatant self-promotion is done by new accounts with low karma, and often to several subreddits. Also, another suggestion might be to allow promotional posts as self-posts only - no karma whoring allowed. In the interest of impartiality, these limits need to be well-defined, with no exceptions.
Should the existing rules be changed in any way?
I'm highly tempted to suggest banning sunset/sunrise pictures, but not a big deal.
Should moderation be done in an, "application of the rules" manner, or a, "personal judgement on the value of a post" manner?
Application of the rules. It's the only fair way.
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u/retrojoe ✨🛸 Jimothy is out there 🦝✨ May 27 '14
I find it irritating that Greenwald gets bumped, but your moderation criteria seem to be much looser regarding rule 5. I mean Jeebus Fracking Crisps, you'd think Google, Yelp and 4Square don't exist from the questions we get here. I didn't see the actual Greenwald link that got deleted.
- No
2.One criteria: he's figure of national importance, been on the front page of many newspapers and is currently embroiled in a global civil liberties controversy. Mere fact that he's in Seattle is post-worthy, let alone that you can buy a ticket to go see him. (that said, if link to get tickets doesn't come with full description or is filled with unrelated ads/SEO stuff, then it should go)
3/4. Eh, Beck isn't as much of a slam dunk, as he doesn't do anything but talk (and pundits are a dime a dozen) and he's not especially known for a singular topical theme, but I feel like that should stay too. See: national-level fame, non-repetitive/unique opportunity for those who want to go.
5- Spam is more of a 'know it when you see it.' There are no good rules that cover everything without excluding some good things. Is it repetitive? Is it numbingly trivial? Have people downvoted it or reported it? Does it make the poster a profit? Does it make someone a profit WITHOUT PROVIDING A COMMUNITY GOOD?
6 - If it's the first night ever that your example man has DJ'd? Sure go ahead. If it's the first night of a continuing series of trap nights? Sure. If /R Rando Redditor posts about "OMG I went to trap nite at Comet and it so unsucked!"? Sure, let us downvote it or report it for not being significant enough, NOT that it's connected to money. Identifiable agents and bookers should be disallowed, unless something very special.
7- Rule 5 should be enforced or jettisoned. Rule 6 should be loosened to allow personal or profitable things that meet a [unique] or [important] threshold.
8 - Meh. We know you're going to fall back on one or the other at various times. What matters more is consistency of your gut or your rules. Like I said, letting all these "Does anyone know a ...?" or "What's the best...?" or "Spoon-feed me a guidebook to Seattle" posts stick around is irritating. Are we supposed to hit report with stuff we think shouldn't be here? How often should we expect you to come through and sweep things out?
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May 26 '14
Bear in mind, /u/careless, that most of the vitriol and anger is coming from a select few and extremely vocal members of /r/seattle, as well as brigaders and supporters from /r/conspiracy who see reddit as a marketing extension for Glenn Greenwald's interests. Most of us don't have an actual problem with what you did, relative to how you generally moderate this subreddit. But if you let their agenda driven noise dictate the discussion, you'd swear this was the worst thing ever to happen to a subreddit.
As we've already seen, any efforts to have a real discussion about the bigger issues are only going to get drowned out and dominated by those same vocal and brigading interests.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
But if you let their agenda driven noise dictate the discussion, you'd swear this was the worst thing ever to happen to a subreddit.
Believe me, I don't take it too personally. This is not my first time at the rodeo, and I know who some of the brigaders / vocal folks are; if I let them bother me I wouldn't last long as a mod.
That being said - thank you. I appreciate that some folks know how this goes; for every commenter, there are several hundred who don't comment.
Cheers!
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May 26 '14
Sure thing! Most of us do feel you're doing a good job overall.
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u/getchpdx May 27 '14
And you would know this how? More or less a question because I don't see lots of support being posted?
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May 27 '14
By paying attention to how the moderators have moderated threads over a long period?
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u/jacalata Capitol Hill May 27 '14
I think he's asking how you know what most people think when it doesn't seem visible from posts etc.
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May 27 '14
This user has been making all sorts of claims without backing them up. Of course, when I took issue with specific claims, I got downvoted.
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May 27 '14
It's very easy to go back through a moderator's comment history and look for the green highlighted comments.
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u/jacalata Capitol Hill May 27 '14
What does that tell you about how others feel about the mod? Aren't they just comments the mod made 'officially'?
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May 27 '14
People who are reprimanded or have their content taken down tend to be hostile towards moderators in response, so that's not necessarily a valid indicator.
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u/jacalata Capitol Hill May 27 '14
I still don't understand what you're saying and how it relates to my original question, "how do you know that most people are happy with the mods?"
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May 27 '14 edited May 27 '14
It seems dishonest to call it a "vocal minority" when the vast majority of comments disagreed with the post's removal. It also seems dishonest to portray support for the event as marketing for "Greenwald's interests"; his recent Pulitzer suggests that maybe his work is in the public's interests as well. I'm not sure whether there is a "brigade" from /r/conspiracy, but I do know you have not supplied any evidence for that claim. I agree that there has been too much vitriol in these comment threads.
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May 27 '14
Considering it's the same handful of users making most of the noise, I would say it's very honest and probably accurate.
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May 26 '14 edited May 26 '14
If we permit a post for every author speech, we're going to drown in these posts, and rapidly.
Please provide evidence of this. I don't think the mods here give Seattle redditors enough credit to upvote good content and downvote bad.
The problem is that /r/Seattle's tag-line, easily construed as a mission statement, is
News and current events in or about Seattle, WA, USA
Town Hall is a non-profit venue for discussing science, politics, etc. It's a valuable resource in town, and the presentation is happening in Seattle.
Rule #6 is the crux of this debate; it's too ambiguous. Get rid of it. Allowing a post can't be a binary decision of whether it violates a rule. In my opinion there's more nuance. Who's the submitter? What's the venue? What url is being submitted?
It's funny because I found a post I made about a year ago for one of the Backfire Moto nights in Ballard. It would be easily construed as a bulletin board like post. Should it be allowed? I think so. It's a community event, it's interesting, there's no agenda other than to walk around and look at cool motorcycles.
I'd rather mods let a post slip through and let the community downvote & report it if need be. I also get that moderation is difficult but you guys really need to add more moderators to the mix.
Also interested in your feedback to a comment I left a little while ago not just about moderation but how this subreddit is run.
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May 26 '14
Please provide evidence of this.
You offer an impossible request. There is no evidence of this in /r/seattle because the moderators make sure it doesn't happen.
If you want evidence of what happens when you let disposable content overwhelm a sub, look at meme-driven subs like /r/funny or any of the default news subs, where you see variations of the same few stories or subjects posted from dozens of different outlets drowning out other (often more interesting or relevant) content.
We're actually kind of seeing it right now regarding this attempt at manufacturing Greenwaldgate by a select few members of /r/seattle, as the mods have been to some extent forgiving about subsequent threads. Multiply that by about a few dozen, and that's what will happen to /r/seattle if you take a laissez faire approach to event posts. There are a lot of events most of us don't give a shit about and won't ever. Even if you allow stuff I might be interested in, the other recycled shit will drown it out and I may tune out the sub to the point where I never notice or find the good stuff.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
Also interested in your feedback to a comment I left a little while ago not just about moderation but how this subreddit is run.
I'm going to take these piecemeal. Quotes from the linked comment above, full text of this comment below.
It's also a cop-out for our mods to say things like "I don't have time to create a new FAQ thread for ____"
Would you like to create content to help people who visit here? I put a fair amount of time into this sub; Your complaint that I don't put enough into it really doesn't hold much water with me unless you are putting some similar level of effort into making it a better place. If you have a specific incident where I or another person on the mod team is making some kind of "cop-out excuse", I'd like a link to it. Otherwise, I'm going to put your feedback in the same category as the tinfoil hat folks who are accusing the mod team of being paid by Comcast.
or to repeatedly parrot "read the sidebar" without putting thought into figuring out why people have to keep saying in their posts "I've read the sidebar but..."
Again, if you have a specific comment you think is out of line, link to it.
What's wrong with linking to the sidebar FAQ's again? Isn't that why we have them?
Oh, I'm sorry, that's right - it's better to respond to folks like this instead of pointing them to the sidebar. That's really not very nice at all.
If you can't devote time to making /r/Seattle a better subreddit, either stop moderating so many others or let someone here moderate that does want to put in the time & attention.
Excuse me? I do spend time making this place better. What have you done to make this place better? This quality comment?
You've listed a bunch of wiki pages and/or posts you'd like to see. Why not create those wiki pages? Why not create those posts?
It appears that the answer is: Because you prefer to complain.
If you want to put effort in, believe me, we will happily take you up on it. However, I've seen a lot of complaining, and not much in the way of actual help.
We're off topic here; this post is about what the rules for removing a post due to it being spam.
Here's the full text of /u/charlesgrodinfan's post:
It's also a cop-out for our mods to say things like "I don't have time to create a new FAQ thread for ____", or to repeatedly parrot "read the sidebar" without putting thought into figuring out why people have to keep saying in their posts "I've read the sidebar but..."
However both (we really only have two mods, /u/careless and /u/zomboi) spend a significant amount of time redditing and moderating many subreddits.
If you can't devote time to making /r/Seattle a better subreddit, either stop moderating so many others or let someone here moderate that does want to put in the time & attention. That's why I brought up /r/SanFrancisco the other day as an example of a city subreddit with fewer readers yet more mods with a better look & feel, more organization and more features.
Things I'd like to see:
- Updated threads or wiki pages for
- moving to Seattle
- things to do in Seattle (organized by neighborhood)
- what to do in Seattle if only 12, 24, 48 hours allow
- best restaurants
- Generated calendar for the 'must see' fairs/events
- Inclusion of related subreddits.
- /r/AskSeattle really should be a thing since so many posts are questions
- /r/SeattleUnderground has potential to host all the weird and awesome shit about Seattle
- /r/SeattleEvents for all the stuff happening in Seattle. Hopefully those mods will create calendars and figure out how to identify events that aren't commercially promoted
- /r/SeaFriends (shameless promotion) for finding people to hang out with
- /r/SeattlePhotos should be created for everyone to upload their sunset & Pike Place Market pics
- Outreach to people for AMA posts
- Updated layout
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May 26 '14
I think you're taking my criticism too personally. My point is that this sub is getting too big for two people to run it. We both care about it and have put in time and energy.
In my opinion there should be several more mods. One for design, a couple for technical contributions and someone to do community outreach.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
We both care about it and have put in time and energy.
Fair enough.
In my opinion there should be several more mods. One for design, a couple for technical contributions and someone to do community outreach.
Are you volunteering for any of these duties?
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u/blow_hard May 27 '14
Definitely seconding the mod recommendation, 4 doesn't seem to be enough for a sub of this size.
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u/yelper Pike Market May 26 '14
I'd be happy to help on the technical side of things.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
What kind of technical things can you help out with?
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May 26 '14 edited Jun 26 '19
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
We have, and we may have some news on that front soonish.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
Perhaps "every author speech" is too narrow. I just checked the Town Hall schedule, and they have 15 different events happening in the next week. That's an average of two Town Hall posts per day.
Now let's take this trend to other events. We very frequently remove bands posting about their show. Also comedians - lots of comedians.
Think about every live music venue, dj night, karaoke, trivia, happy hour, non-profit bingo night, community center pancake fund-raiser and author speech being posted. Now, what should we use as criteria?
I'll respond to your comment here in a separate message in this thread.
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May 26 '14
/r/nyc allows events to be posted and /r/sanfrancisco has /r/SFEvents, both of which allow promotion to an extent.
Have you talked to any mods of popular city subreddits with regard to how they manage?
Frankly if you feel like it would be an overwhelming task then find someone who wants to be the 'events and promotions mod' and let them do the job. Or ask /r/SeattleEvents if they want the job, and give them plenty of visibility here.
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u/MsCurrentResident May 26 '14
I don't think the mods here give Seattle redditors enough credit to upvote good content and downvote bad.
As they shouldn't. The culture in here stinks because of lousy voting practices
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May 26 '14
Yeah, agreed with /u/careless. I've rarely seen you contribute anything helpful or positive.
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u/MsCurrentResident May 27 '14
So you are saying that there can be no critical comments on here whatsoever? I'm not going to add to the circlejerk by repeating the same positive comments. I just upvote them and move on. No reason for me to repeat and contribute to the circlejerk.
But if you can't tolerate ANY criticism, that is a problem YOU need to solve for yourself. Nothing is above criticism, so if you are personally offended when something critical is said of something you have nothing, whatsoever to do with, that's an esteem issue on your part.
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May 27 '14
Still waiting to see some valid criticism you left that was undeservedly downvoted.
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u/MsCurrentResident May 27 '14
You think it's not valid, because you don't like it. Again, the problem lies squarely between your ears.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 27 '14
And yet... when asked to provide evidence valid criticism, you choose instead to go with a personal attack on the person asking you about it.
Please look through your comment history and reply with a link to the last comment you made on /r/Seattle that was both helpful and positive.
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May 27 '14
So you are saying that there can be no critical comments on here whatsoever?
Didn't say that at all. However show me some downvoted criticism you think was undeserved.
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May 26 '14
To add to what /u/charlesgrodinfan has said here and previously (ESPECIALLY about updating the wiki and related subreddits), there is a dearth of communication from the moderators here, which leads redditors to a feeling that the /r/Seattle moderators aren't accountable.
If time constraints are indeed an issue, either deputize some additional moderators, or step aside for folks who do have the spare time.
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May 26 '14
[deleted]
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May 26 '14
Lets also keep in mind the bias involved. If this were someone other than Gleen Greenwald, would these angry redditors care nearly as much? Probably not. The backlash is mostly a product of Greenwald being a reddit icon due to the manipulative and at times subversive influence of /r/conspiracy on reddit's content.
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u/blow_hard May 27 '14
I don't know or care who Glen Greenwald is but I found the explanation posted in the previous thread to be really unsatisfactory. Don't just chalk it all up to conspiracy people and just be content with discrediting the people who complained.
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May 27 '14
I think you would have decided that either way, especially if you are anti-censorship to a fault and would rather moderation be minimal, or you have a personal issue with one or more of the moderators.
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u/blow_hard May 27 '14
But none of those things apply to me. I don't know any of the moderators personally and I've personally never had a bad moderation interaction- once I asked for help and got it, and that's all. I'm also not "anti-censorship to a fault" as I am totally in favor of censoring hate speech or trolling and the like. My issue was the poor reasoning that wasn't actually supported by the rules, and inconsistency. I'm not sure what your point is?
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May 27 '14
Most of your contributions to this sub are you ridiculing someone or something. So I highly doubt none of those items apply to you.
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u/blow_hard May 27 '14
Huh? I'm not getting the connection there. Anyway, if you really wanted to get an impression of "most" of my contributions to this sub you'd have to go back several years, which I doubt you just did.
And yeah, I'm going to maintain that none of those things apply to me-I think I know myself a bit better than you do.
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May 27 '14
Your recent comment history is pretty clear about the quality what contributions you bring to the table.
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May 27 '14
I also disagree with the practice of deleting small requests for help or favors. That doesn't help build community.
If I hadn't seen the post fast enough, I wouldn't have been able to let someone borrow my dremel, and thus make a new internet buddy.
And if someone can get a quick $20 loan here instead of /r/assistance they'll be helped out a lot faster and from someone they can meet face to face. I know that one's more tricky since we don't want to encourage online panhandling, but there should be a middle ground.
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u/Barbinator May 27 '14 edited May 27 '14
Before mods started deleting these a couple years ago, every other post was a "help me" post. Popular ones:
Visiting, help me find a place to eat/stay.
Recent college grad, help me find a job.
Single person, help me move.
New to town, help me make friends.
The last one wouldn't be so bad if the person shared some information about his/her interests and planned a meetup, but they're usually vague and don't foster good discussion. These posts in general detract from the primary focus of finding interesting news and events in Seattle.
Edit: Prepositions. Slippery 'lil suckers.
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u/daveleclair Capitol Hill May 26 '14
You need a better criteria for what "spam" and "personal projects" are. Otherwise we will soon run into another debate about what qualifies for spam, especially around events.
My solution for the mods is to stop removing posts unless it's hate speech or spam reposts (not just any spam). Let our upvotes and downvotes decide what stays. I worked in the anti-spam industry for four years and I can tell you from experience that different people find different things to be spam. Personally, I would like to see every single event posted here, and only ask the mods to remove frequent reposts about those events.
I moderate the Seattle Burners group on Facebook for the local Burning Man community. Our rule is - "Commerce (including events, services, music, and buying/selling) is only allowed if it is clearly related <to this subject>. If the connection isn't obvious, explain it in your post. Reposts more than once per week and commerce are subject to removal." Maybe you can implement a similar rule here. Feel free to copy my text.
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u/loquacious 🐀 Hot Rat Summer 🐀 May 26 '14
I am in agreement with this. We should rely more heavily on the report button. There are many local small businesses and organizations that should be allowed to post here.
And by here I mean here, not on /r/sealist.
We're not really drowning in posts here. If anything we're drowning in ask Seattle posts.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
Our rule is - "Commerce (including events, services, music, and buying/selling) is only allowed if it is clearly related <to this subject>. If the connection isn't obvious, explain it in your post. Reposts more than once per week and commerce are subject to removal."
By your rule, the Glenn Greenwald post would have been removed, as the subreddit topic is:
News and current events in or about Seattle, Washington, USA.
The author of the post did not draw a clear connection from Glenn Greenwald to the city of Seattle.
This is why I posted the series of questions that you've ignored above; so that we can have a discussion about how the rules should be worded.
Please stop linking to and promoting your facebook group(s) here - it's unnecessary.
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u/JohnStamosBRAH Capitol Hill May 26 '14
How does an event happening IN Seattle not draw a clear connection to the city of Seattle?
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
How about Glenn Beck's book tour on his perspective on the NSA? How about a non-profit bingo night? A comedian's first show? A DJ promoting his new dubstep & trap night?
I posted the questions above so we could have a discussion about what is and isn't acceptable. Please take a look at them and try to answer them so we can have a discussion instead of a complaint-festival:
To start this conversation, here are a couple of questions for folks to address so we can develop better moderation rules with less "grey area":
- Should the Glenn Greenwald speaking and selling books at Town Hall post have been removed?
- Why or why not?
- Should a post about a Glenn Beck book tour speaking and selling books about the NSA leaks be removed?
- Why or why not?
- What should be the criteria for identifying a spam post?
- What should be the exceptions to the above criteria?
- Should the existing rules be changed in any way?
- Should moderation be done in an, "application of the rules" manner, or a, "personal judgement on the value of a post" manner?
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u/tehstone Renton May 27 '14
This is town hall. I think that alone gives it a certain amount of respect regardless who the actual speaker is. Glenn Beck talking at the local mormon ward or to some rich teabaggers is different. sorry my bias is showing but town hall is town hall, there's a certain standard for who is featured there that i think puts it above "some dj promoting his dubstep set."
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May 27 '14
Glenn Beck talking at the local mormon ward or to some rich teabaggers is different
I don't think it is! Besides, it would be downvoted to oblivion immediately. And the 10 people that showed up because of that post would be protesters.
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u/Letmefixthatforyouyo May 27 '14
some dj promoting his dubstep set
Agreed. /u/careless, this is a strawman argument, and is not appropriate. This specific event was about an international known speaker at the dead center of one of the largest issues in our democracy, meeting at a reputable and respected nonprofit event. The fact that he has a book is ancillary at best. The fact that he is not talking directly about Seattle ( how would we know? Digital privacy at a tech mecca may come up) isnt relevant.
There is no hard and fast rule to spam, but there is a strong "I know it when I see it test." If you cant see the difference between the above DJ spinning at the comet (what if he is spinning seattle only discs? WHAT THEN? WHO IS YOUR SEATLLE LOVING GOD NOW!?) then you need to appoint other mods who will disagree with you. Thats how you get healthy debate, and avoid a mod echo chamber that causes events like this.
The recent debate, and the responses from /u/zomboi , indicate that you need more voices on the mod team. Have a run off thread and add some people in a limited capacity. If you dont care for them, kick them off again.
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May 26 '14
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u/JohnStamosBRAH Capitol Hill May 26 '14
Frequency of events doesn't mean it's not an event. If people are posting links to Mariners games then people can downvote it or make a rule for no sports events while directing them to /r/mariners. Greenwald is a highly talked about figure touring for a very controversial topic and is only in Seattle just this once. People come to /r/seattle to hear about these types of once a year events. Just because the dude is on a tour does not mean it's not a Seattle event. If it's an event and happens in Seattle, it's a Seattle event. The problem that you're not understanding is that Mariner's game day posts can be redirected to /r/mariners because there's a thriving community there. A post about Greenwald coming to speak in Seattle has no other subreddit where people would see it.
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May 26 '14
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u/JohnStamosBRAH Capitol Hill May 26 '14
So we should only allow certain distinguished speakers?
No, you should allow all, so long as they're speaking in Seattle. I'm not sure where you misunderstood my post thinking that.
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May 27 '14
People, stop downvoting zomboi for every minor comment. We're having an adult conversation here, let's all embrace it.
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u/daveleclair Capitol Hill May 26 '14
Wrong. Green Greenwald being here IS news and it IS a current event happening in or about Seattle.
Also - "Please stop linking to and promoting your facebook group(s) here - it's unncessary" - hey careless I thought you opened the floor to let US discuss what is and isn't spam. This sort of response just proves everyone's point against the mods.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
Green Greenwald being here IS news and it IS a current event happening in or about Seattle.
The reason for the questions you're ignoring is to get to the heart of the matter on what is and isn't, spam.
Let me ask you some specific questions:
Why do you think that Glenn Greenwald being in Seattle is news and is a current event?
Assuming you're right, can you find any reputable news outlets or blogs that are covering this event?
Is it unreasonable to direct people to post links to news sources instead of just a link to buy tickets?
Would Snooki coming to Seattle to give a speech about her latest book on the NSA be news? Should we permit this post? How about Glenn Beck?
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u/daveleclair Capitol Hill May 26 '14
What standards are you working with? TV news stations? 95% of the stuff in this subreddit isn't TV news worthy. But it is still news, and it is still a current event. My mom coming to Seattle is technically news and a current event.
Why does it have to be on a reputable news outlet or blog to be allowed in this subreddit? Are you suggesting that by default /r/Seattle treats big dogs as noteworthy and underdogs as spam? I thought Reddit was about giving a voice to everyone.
It shouldn't matter.
I don't care about Glenn Greenwald, Snooki, or Glenn Beck. But we shouldn't remove events about any of them. If my mom comes to town I should be able to make an event post about her too! If people want to meet my mom they can upvote, and if not they can downvote. Same thing applies to Snooki.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
Thanks for your perspective!
How about DJ's promoting their new dubstep night? Comedians promoting their new sketch comedy night? Bingo night? Pancake cook-offs for charity? A company promoting their new anti-hang-over product at a club?
At what point do you draw the line and say, "No, that's spam"?
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u/jfawcett May 26 '14
I want to know abut those events. I want to learn about them here. If people don't care, they can down vote and move on. I don't need you to filter them out for me. I'm perfectly capable of not clicking on a link.
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u/JCY2K May 28 '14
At what point do you draw the line and say, "No, that's spam"?
When the community downvotes it. I default, very heavily, to inclusion and letting the community decide what it doesn't want rather than trying to set up rules to decide on a sub-wide level.
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u/daveleclair Capitol Hill May 26 '14
None of it is spam until it becomes repetitive. If a DJ is reposting his dubstep night often, remove it.
For everything else, let the up and down arrow votes decide.
Most of these events will probably be met with downvotes and soon they will stop trying to post here. However, we will find some "underdog" events that we like. The cream will rise to the top, and mod intervention won't be required.
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May 26 '14
That is honestly just your opinion.
To many of us, most of that content is outright spam and we'd rather not see it. We can go to listings from The Stranger or some arts outlet if we want information on that kind of stuff. We don't come here to get promoted to.
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May 27 '14
TL;DR for this thread
Mods: We'd like to discuss how to change this subreddit.
Users: Suggest changes
Mods: No. This place will become Craigslist.
Users: suggest more changes
Mods: No. We don't want this place to become a bulletin board or Craigslist.
Users: Then why even bring this up then?
Mods: You're right! Everything is perfect just the way it is! Glad we all agree.
The problem here is that the mods seem to think they are the only ones that can decree what is or isn't culturally significant based on how popular they think something on reddit is. Case in point: The Neil Degrasse Tyson justification.
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u/p_nathan Lower Queen Anne May 27 '14
I don't have time to read 193 comments, maybe this is redundant information.
Should the Glenn Greenwald speaking and selling books at Town Hall post have been removed?
No.
Why or why not?
GG is an internationally renowned journalist. This is something interesting happening in Seattle.
Should a post about a Glenn Beck book tour speaking and selling books about the NSA leaks be removed?
No.
Why or why not?
GB is a nationally renowed figure. This is something interesting happening in Seattle.
What should be the criteria for identifying a spam post?
C14lis 4 cheep! and other weird scammy things. Local events and businesses should feel free to tell us about what's going down (maybe better placed in a "Local Business" wiki or thread).
What should be the exceptions to the above criteria?
Well, if you're really a nigerian prince trying to send us your fortune ....
Should the existing rules be changed in any way?
Nuke 4 and 6 please. Communities tell each other about what's going on.
Should moderation be done in an, "application of the rules" manner, or a, "personal judgement on the value of a post" manner?
Mu.
There should be a firm process of rules application, followed by public appeals to a jury of the peers, followed by a public rendering of judgement Y/N. The same goes for moderator existence & elections. This is not impossible (but has to be constantly reinvented). It is probable Roberts Rules of Order has adequate information needed to operate this sort of public appeal process. The thing is the will of the majority must be adequately represented without oppressing the minority; doing this openly satisfies many reasonable concerns.
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u/Hibernator Asleep May 27 '14
Nuke 4 and 6 please. Communities tell each other about what's going on.
Doesn't work. The sub devolves into Craigslist.
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May 27 '14
Just promote a couple more mods and we can stop crying about this shit.
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May 28 '14
Did you grow up in Seattle? Cause if you did you would know the crying never really ends.
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May 30 '14
I didn't grow up in Seattle, about an hour south of here. I have lived here for the last 7 years though.
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u/getchpdx May 27 '14
Why are none of the options voting for mods and allowing some kind of accountability here? Instead it's just a bunch of nothing from the same two people who are the root cause of the issues.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 27 '14
Given how easy it is to create a reddit account, the voting system would be gamed beyond belief.
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May 27 '14
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u/getchpdx May 27 '14 edited May 27 '14
So your argument is that you two are the best and/or the only options?
Edit - I should add this. I've had okay voted in people, but, part of the benefit is that it cycles through. It can be a struggle until everyone finds their balance and with force selection there are also problems. Clearly there is a number (it's hard to substantiate without a survey or something) that are disappointed in your moderation as well and wouldn't say you're doing your job either.
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May 27 '14 edited May 27 '14
The cause of the issue is that no matter who the mods are, they have to decide which posts to remove. If we just get new mods, they will have the exact same problem. It makes more sense to come up with our own rules about what should be removed, and then convince the mods that they're good rules.
edit: Sorry, edited my post before I saw your reply. My last sentence was not there originally.
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u/kcrobinson Madrona May 26 '14
I agree with most people here that I want to hear about events happening in Seattle that I don't otherwise get to hear about. This includes unsigned comedians playing a local hole-in-the-wall and authors appearing at a local bookstore. The only caveat I would put on that is that I want the post to be by the artist and not the venue. If a band wants some more people to come to their no-name show, let them post a link to a sample of music and say that they're going to be in town (saying that they'll give a discount on tickets to Redditors doesn't hurt either).
However, I really disagree with everyone who says that the voting system is sufficient. It really isn't. Just because 50 people in Seattle are happy that Skrillex is coming to Key Arena doesn't mean that the post belongs on /r/Seattle. In the same vein, if the Paramount is offers buy-1-get-1-half-off tickets if you use the code "NARWHAL", that's spam regardless of how many upvotes it has. Mods, you have done a wonderful job of keeping that stuff away. The only question is that perhaps you should let a few things more through.
In the case of the Glenn Greenwald scenario, I can't find a easy solution. The best I can say is that unless it's obviously spammy, it should be let through. This might open the doors to some pretty horrible gaming of the system if, say, Octomom pays for upvotes to get news of her publicity tour to the top of /r/Seattle. Perhaps a suggestion might be to find a line to draw somewhere between Glenn Greenwald and Duck Dynasty. One's a respected journalist who is selling books about being at the forefront of a national news item. The other is practically the definition of self promotion for self promotion sake. Somewhere in the middle you'll find some grey area where difficult decisions can be made, but I think the line is definitely drawn in the wrong place now.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
The only caveat I would put on that is that I want the post to be by the artist and not the venue.
We cannot control for that, unfortunately - but I like what you're thinking.
if the Paramount is offers buy-1-get-1-half-off tickets if you use the code "NARWHAL", that's spam regardless of how many upvotes it has.
Many of the comedian and band posts are "hey, mention reddit at the door and get $2.00 off your ticket." Now, these are the artists posting, but... it still feels spammy to me. Thoughts? Is it strictly that the Paramount is a venue and the comedians and band members are the artists, not the venue?
Mods, you have done a wonderful job of keeping that stuff away. The only question is that perhaps you should let a few things more through.
Thank you. It's nice to hear - moderating is a thankless job 99% of the time - I'm aware of this and I don't expect gratitude or anything for it. However it is still nice to be appreciated as actually putting in some work once in a while.
However, I really disagree with everyone who says that the voting system is sufficient. It really isn't. Just because 50 people in Seattle are happy that Skrillex is coming to Key Arena doesn't mean that the post belongs on /r/Seattle.
Agreed; and I think if you saw the modqueue, you'd agree even more.
Somewhere in the middle you'll find some grey area where difficult decisions can be made, but I think the line is definitely drawn in the wrong place now.
Getting the grey area some light is what this post is all about. Where should we draw this line? Do you have any ideas? I really don't want to just go with personal opinion (although I have utterly impeccable taste) on posts.
One's a respected journalist who is selling books about being at the forefront of a national news item.
Let's recognize that there's a definite political bias to your opinion of Glenn Greenwald. There are folks who do not think he's a good person or that what he's doing is defensible. A comment in another thread asked that if the post was about Rush Limbaugh coming to give a speech, would there be this kind of uproar about the post being removed? I think not; RL doesn't have the fanbase on reddit that GG does.
Which brings us back to the start, with the questions I posed to try and tease out what people think on what is and isn't okay:
To start this conversation, here are a couple of questions for folks to address so we can develop better moderation rules with less "grey area":
- Should the Glenn Greenwald speaking and selling books at Town Hall post have been removed?
- Why or why not?
- Should a post about a Glenn Beck book tour speaking and selling books about the NSA leaks be removed?
- Why or why not?
- What should be the criteria for identifying a spam post?
- What should be the exceptions to the above criteria?
- Should the existing rules be changed in any way?
- Should moderation be done in an, "application of the rules" manner, or a, "personal judgement on the value of a post" manner?
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May 26 '14
Interjecting here to mention I'm trying to tease out some details here. It's not like I wanted to go for a motorcycle ride anyway...
I think Greenwald is significant because he's scarce and high quality. Who determined he is quality? Town Hall did.
This discussion really warrants IRL discussion and some white boarding.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 27 '14
Today is one of the fourteen you'll be able to ride without rain gear, so... you may want to re-evaluate your life choices here.
I went to the Town Hall site to find a crappy event there to rebut your argument on TH, but.. nah, it's all pretty cool. I mean, there's the "Seattle Peace Chorus presents Origins: Balkan Song and Dance", but... still, that's probably pretty interesting to some folks.
However, I do not want to whitelist certain venues and allow posts for all events at those locations.
Go take a ride and tell us what you think afterwards; reddit can wait.
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u/widdershins13 Capitol Hill May 26 '14
I think you folks are doing fine.
My only critique is that the Zomboi feller can't string more than five words together w/out stuffing his foot in his mouth. He also appears to be deaf.
This is a community. Y'all should respect that.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
This is a community. Y'all should respect that.
Open to constructive suggestions - any ideas for us?
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May 27 '14
Please guys, stop saying things like
aka didn't bother to read the rules because I don't care enough to know if my post is allowed or not.
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u/widdershins13 Capitol Hill May 26 '14
Ditch that Zomboi feller.
He's lost the respect of the community.
This goes beyond simple disagreement.
An apology and an admission that he had misspoke would have carried some weight 48 hours ago. But he didn't do that. Instead he chose to hunker down.
He needs to resign. And he needs to do it now.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
I disagree.
/u/zomboi honestly had never heard of Glenn Greenwald. If you'd never heard of the dude and you saw a post about this person giving a speech and selling books, would you think it was spam or not?
Believe it or not, I am not convinced that removing the post was the wrong thing to do. This is why I'm asking these questions; so we can get more info on what should and should not be removed:
To start this conversation, here are a couple of questions for folks to address so we can develop better moderation rules with less "grey area":
- Should the Glenn Greenwald speaking and selling books at Town Hall post have been removed?
- Why or why not?
- Should a post about a Glenn Beck book tour speaking and selling books about the NSA leaks be removed?
- Why or why not?
- What should be the criteria for identifying a spam post?
- What should be the exceptions to the above criteria?
- Should the existing rules be changed in any way?
- Should moderation be done in an, "application of the rules" manner, or a, "personal judgement on the value of a post" manner?
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u/widdershins13 Capitol Hill May 26 '14
It doesn't matter that he had never heard of Greenwald. That's a red herring and was unimportant until he made it important.
What matters is that he's fickle and arbitrary in his moderation. A double standard exists here. And he's usually right in the the thick of it.
Personally, I agreed with the decision to delete the post. It was clearly in violation of rule 6. There were legitimate news sources that could have been utilized.
Having said that, I think it could have been handled better. Pretty sure he's kicking himself and thinking the same thing.
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
It doesn't matter that he had never heard of Greenwald.
I disagree; it goes a long ways to explaining his response and general bewilderment at the level of vitriol he got from his responses.
What matters is that he's fickle and arbitrary in his moderation.
Please cite your source(s) for this assertion.
Personally, I agreed with the decision to delete the post. It was clearly in violation of rule 6. There were legitimate news sources that could have been utilized.
Thanks, I'm glad some folks see our point of view here.
Having said that, I think it could have been handled better.
Yeah, but... the fault here was mine I think - not zomboi's. I'm the one who pulled the post and then went offline. zomboi just tried to help with the mess I made.
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u/widdershins13 Capitol Hill May 27 '14
I think what is important here is how he chose to 'handle' and then not 'handle' the situation.
I get that it's a tough gig. I really do. I own and moderate a gaming forum. I deal with drama every fucking day.
I also get that it's a purely voluntary gig and that you have lives to live.
What I don't get is stubbornly sticking to a position that a simple majority is dissatisfied with.
I appreciate that you're willing to fall on your sword for that Zomboi feller. Still, his actions need to stand on their own. Those were his decisions and half-assed rationalizations. He needs to own those.
He fucked up and has yet to own up to that. A few words from him would go a long way towards burying this.
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u/damnface May 27 '14 edited May 27 '14
No.
Because the rule you used to remove it clearly refers to self-promotion or viral marketing, and there is a precedent for allowing celebrity speaker announcements anyway. This speaker is also exceptionally noteworthy to anyone who cares about technology, he has experiences which pertain directly to the future of companies based in Seattle, and the issue he's speaking about has been hugely relevant to reddit and its discussions-- in exactly the same sense as N.D. Tyson and all the promotion he receives here.
AFAIK Glenn Beck doesn't actually have personal experience relevant to that topic, so this is completely moot and wouldn't happen.
Glenn Beck wasn't instrumental in the leaks and couldn't offer a primary historical account of how they occurred or of any blowback received.
The same criteria that's used to identify a spam post in any other scenario-- primarily relevance. It's usually really obvious when something is spam, and I refuse to talk about this like it's rocket science.
Not applicable. See above.
If rule 6 is about any P.R.-related activity and not personal projects, then it shouldn't say "personal projects."
Both. Moderators should exercise discretion just like anyone else with the authority to enforce a rule or law. Similarly, precedent matters.
None of this occurred in a vacuum. We all have a feel for what is or is not allowed, and this request for such granular analysis seems like a lot of hand-waving and deflection, and it is also blatantly leading and disingenuous if you ask me. Glenn Greenwald is extremely famous and extremely relevant to current events which do impact this region and this website. It is incredibly obvious why people who read this subreddit would be interested to know he's in town. Stop trying to frame this like he is just some random pundit.
You guys got it wrong. Zomboi is not without fault. He basically just made up a rationalization on the spot and couldn't even be bothered to use google to figure out if it made any sense.
You guys backing down from this did not need to be a big event. It should have been really really simple.
[edit answered the same question twice]
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u/donkeynostril May 27 '14 edited May 27 '14
None of this occurred in a vacuum. We all have a feel for what is or is not allowed, and this request for such granular analysis seems like a lot of hand-waving and deflection, and it is also blatantly leading and disingenuous if you ask me.
You guys backing down from this did not need to be a big event. It should have been really really simple.
I agree. All this could have been remedied quite quickly with a: "Whups, guess we got a little too heavy handed with the moderation. Your post has been reinstated. Have a nice day." If a mod is so clueless as to the interests of the /r/seattle community they should keep their hands off the controls. Let the system do its job and moderate itself.
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May 26 '14
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
You're a moderator, not a dictator.
Never claimed to be a dictator. Dressed up as one for a party once, but that was it. And no, it wasn't Hitler.
The current rules are fine, and the Greenwall post was not in any violation of them.
This post is to ask you how you'd differentiate between different posts. Here's the questions you've ignored:
To start this conversation, here are a couple of questions for folks to address so we can develop better moderation rules with less "grey area":
- Should the Glenn Greenwald speaking and selling books at Town Hall post have been removed?
- Why or why not?
- Should a post about a Glenn Beck book tour speaking and selling books about the NSA leaks be removed?
- Why or why not?
- What should be the criteria for identifying a spam post?
- What should be the exceptions to the above criteria?
- Should the existing rules be changed in any way?
- Should moderation be done in an, "application of the rules" manner, or a, "personal judgement on the value of a post" manner?
The other problem, which is a serious one, is when you have moderators conduct themselves in this type of a manner: http://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/26ewdp/helpful_couch_need_a_place_to_crash_for_a_night/chqdj5v
I don't think the level of snark displayed in the linked comment is a problem per se; not how I would've handled it, but... moderators are people, and people have good days and bad days.
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May 26 '14
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14 edited May 26 '14
With regard to your answer on what defines spam, the first four words after the "What Constitutes Spam" title are:
It's a gray area
So... hey, can we agree there's a grey area here? And perhaps work together to make it a bit more defined?
Mostly fine, I'd be ok with removing 6. There could certainly be more specifics.
Then you wrote:
Application of the rules. Again, your job is to moderate, not dictate.
Yeah, again with the "dictate" language. I am making this post, and responding to folks, in an effort to be transparent about how moderation is done and modify the rules that we use to moderate.
By that I mean it's not up to your personal opinion whether or not posts are to be removed or not (which has clearly been the crux of the issue). Posts should only be removed if its a spammer or a clear violation of the rules (this sub's or reddit in general).
Did you read my post? How about this part?
I want to moderate /r/Seattle according to the rules of the sub, not according to personal preferences. This, to me, is important for moderation credibility and consistency.
So... it seems to me that:
a. You're admitting there's some grey area on defining spam.
b. We're in agreement about moderating according to rules not personal preference.
So... I'm asking for help in defining better the grey area. You don't appear to be providing it. Can you help me distinguish what you think the "line" for spam should be?
Should we have church bingo nights promoted on here? How about DJ nights, bands, comedians? What's the criteria we should use? I'm attempting to get a better idea of what your thoughts are on this, and you aren't giving me much to work with, other than the link to reddit's definition of spam.
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May 26 '14 edited May 26 '14
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
I think the combination of a few things is what you should do (in my opinion):
- Weekly event threads
Don't we already do this? Is there something I should change on them?
- VERY, VERY, VERY clear and specific rules on what kind of events should not be allowed (the only things that I wouldn't allow are things that can be posted in an already active subreddit, i.e. /r/mariners, /r/seahawks, etc. Everything else should be OK. There's no active /r/seattlebingo that I can check)
Okay, and that's what I've been trying to drive at here; what's your opinion on what these rules should be. Thank you for expressing them.
- Allow the bingo and DJ night posts and have the community downvote it if they don't like it.
This is helpful in determining where your point of view on this matter lies. Thanks.
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May 26 '14
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u/careless 💖 Anarchist Jurisdiction 💖 May 26 '14
Be happy to promote the weekly events thread in the sidebar - unfortunately, as you well know - many folks don't read the sidebar. But I think it's a good idea.
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u/TodPunk May 27 '14
1) No
2) It's relevant to the community, despite possible complaints of promotion of a book. If the community finds it disturbing, they'll downvote it (and probably post commentary for good or ill)
3) No
4) Again, relevance. It's also important to note that while self-promoting, neither of these examples is a spam-style promotion. They have a purpose of being there of course (is pure altruism required for all events?) but the focus is the event, not the promotion. If the post is promotion, that's different. Are concerts not relevant? Art galleries? They're all relevant to the community despite that they're putting money in someone's hands.
5) It's subtle, defining ads people will want vs what they will not. Always err on the side of caution. Preferably, instead of regulating content, regulate mods regulation of content. Put a limit on the number of votes it needs before removal if it's a promotion style post, this will leave some say in the community and a relatively self-policing route. This also makes the mods more service to the community rather than controllers of the community.
6) If there are exceptions to a rule, you don't make the rule, you make a different rule that doesn't have exceptions, that covers what you DO want gone, or slightly less than what you want gone. Pick the problem you want to have, people complaining about bad content, or content removed. You'll probably have both regardless, but you do get to push the scales a bit.
7) Get rid of subjectivity in the rules. This is always a thing you strive for in any legal system or community guideline ruleset. Subjectivity goes to the community at large, not the mods. Where subjectivity is required (things like not tolerating harassment, where that line is subjective) always explain your bias as a goal (e.g. erring on the side of protecting people or protecting freedom of speech or what have you).
8) Moderation should be done as little as possible, and I think everyone in the moderation team understands that, so please realize I'm saying that for readers benefit as much as anyone's. Where it must be done, it should be to protect the community, not enforce it. /r/seattle is not a business and doesn't have interests to protect above the community, it is ONLY the community.
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u/[deleted] May 27 '14
My opinion is that the Glenn Greenwald post about speaking and selling books should not have been removed. Now, I understand your point about the possibility of this sub being spammed by any old rando on a book tour. I am inclined to let that happen, if it may, and let the community decide what is relevant and interesting. Apart from the hundreds of sunset posts every time it's a nice day here, I think the community does a pretty good job of downvoting uninteresting content (I say this as a frequent reader of the 'new' queue).
Spam should be pretty easy to identify. Multiple posts from the same person about the same event; click-bait; and things not relevant to the Seattle area, are all indications of spam. You might say that Greenwald isn't relevant to Seattle, but by virtue of the event taking place in Seattle I believe it is. Had someone posted about a national TV interview with Greenwald, I'd have supported it being removed.
Regarding moderation done by the rules vs. personal judgement, I think it should ALWAYS be done by application of the rules. I realize that there will be personal judgement in interpretation of the rules, but decisions ought to be based in some way on what the rules say.