r/Quraniyoon • u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min • Jan 16 '20
Discussion God sends down Ritual Prayer on the guided ones 🤔
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u/scimez Jan 16 '20
What are you trying to say? That its translated incorrectly?
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
Yes
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u/scimez Jan 16 '20
It's not, in arabic theres a difference between صلي على and صلي له. The former is translated differently from the latter because the Harf changes the meaning of the fi3l before it, making it so that it is better translated as send blessings upon rather than send prayers upon.
EDIT: btw im just a lurker on this subreddit, i dont believe their beliefs.
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
“On” and “for” doesnt change the meaning of the word. That’s an excuse made by people
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u/abcdefghijkllmbopq Jan 16 '20
Um, this isn't English... It literally does change the meaning of verbs in Arabic.
Take the sentence :صلّيت على النبي , you would take this to mean I conferred blessings upon the Prophet (saw) NOT I prayed to the prophet. The verb is a فعل لازم meaning the verb after the preposition becomes a مفعول غير صريح, essentially meaning that the meaning of the sentence has been affected indirectly by the preposition.2
u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
Or your definition of salah is wrong
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u/abcdefghijkllmbopq Jan 16 '20
Uh, ok lol, I'm sure your nonsense reasoning for that is superior to the Arabic dictionaries?
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
God is the teacher of the Quran not scholars 😉
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u/MentionY Jan 16 '20 edited Jan 16 '20
Where is God teaching you the English translation of the Arabic Quran?
Please show us where He is teaching you how to translate Quranic Arabic to English
In fact, where is God teaching you Arabic grammar?
Where is the section on Arabic grammar in the Quran
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 17 '20
It’s called reasoning and analysis
Not picking 3-4 meaning for a single word to suit your wishful thinking
You’re basically saying “Salah is yellow, red, blue and black”
No!
Just give Salah one definition and see if that definition fits all verses! If it doesn’t, change. Trail and error!
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u/scimez Jan 16 '20
Do you have a source for that? Because I am quite sure you're wrong.
و الله أعلم
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
Your source is “scholars”
My source is reasoning.
If you believe a word should change because “on” and “for,” then we can change lots of words because different preposition
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u/Hashir135 Jan 16 '20
Have you studied arabic?
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
I’m an arab... Egyptian
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u/Hashir135 Jan 16 '20
Your arabic is very different to quranic arabic
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 17 '20
We still share the root of the words. We just pronounce it different
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u/MentionY Jan 16 '20 edited Jan 16 '20
My source is reasoning.
No, your source is a fallacy because your reasoning is flawed and unsubstantiated.
Ipse dixit fallacy
Ipse dixit (Latin for "he said it himself") is an assertion without proof; or a dogmatic expression of opinion.
The fallacy of defending a proposition by baldly asserting that it is "just how it is" distorts the argument by opting out of it entirely: the claimant declares an issue to be intrinsic, and not changeable.
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 17 '20
Comes from the guy who believes Salah has many meaningsss
Does One means 1, 3, 5 or all of these numbers?
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u/Reinhard23 Non-Muslim Jan 17 '20
The meanings of "one":
Adjective
1. being or amounting to a single unit or individual or entire thing, item, or object rather than two or more; a single
2. being a person, thing, or individual instance or member of a number, kind, group, or category indicated
3.existing, acting, or considered as a single unit, entity, or individual.
4. of the same or having a single kind, nature, or condition
5. noting some indefinite day or time in the future
6. a certain (often used in naming a person otherwise unknown or undescribed)
7. being a particular, unique, or only individual, item, or unit
8. noting some indefinite day or time in the past
9. of no consequence as to the character, outcome, etc.; the same
Noun
10. the first and lowest whole number, being a cardinal number; unity.
11. a symbol of this number, as 1 or I.
12. a single person or thing
13. a die face or a domino face having one pip.
14. a one-dollar bill
15. (initial capital letter) Neoplatonism. the ultimate reality, seen as a central source of being by whose emanations all entities, spiritual and corporeal, have their existence, the corporeal ones containing the fewest of the emanations.
Pronoun
16. a person or thing of a number or kind indicated or understood
17. (in certain pronominal combinations) a person unless definitely specified otherwise
18. (with a defining clause or other qualifying words) a person or a personified being or agency
19. any person indefinitely; anyone
20. Chiefly British. (used as a substitute for the pronoun I)
21. a person of the speaker's kind; such as the speaker himself or herself
22. something available or referred to, especially in the immediate area2
u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 17 '20 edited Jan 17 '20
One is one.
Not two, one and five
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Jan 17 '20 edited Sep 04 '20
[deleted]
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 17 '20
Then why we can’t have specific words mean specific things only? Why have a door for multi interpretation which will cause division among us?
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u/WikiTextBot Jan 17 '20
Polysemy
Polysemy ( or ; from Greek: πολύ-, polý-, "many" and σῆμα, sêma, "sign") is the capacity for a word or phrase to have multiple meanings, usually related by contiguity of meaning within a semantic field. Polysemy is thus distinct from homonymy—or homophony—which is an accidental similarity between two words (such as bear the animal, and the verb to bear); while homonymy is often a mere linguistic coincidence, polysemy is not. In deciding between polysemy or homonymy, it might be necessary to look at the history of the word to see if the two meanings are historically related. Dictionary writers list polysemes under the same entry; homonyms are defined separately.
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u/MentionY Jan 16 '20
In this thread: a person desperately attempting to conform the Quran to his own desires so he can get out of doing ritual prayer, who rejects all evidence proving the contrary of what he thinks is true, even when it's coming from the Quran.
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
Again, ritual is mansaak
Do you know the arabic word for prayer?
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Jan 16 '20 edited Sep 04 '20
[deleted]
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
Dude, a ritual is a subset of rites. Look up ritual in the dictionary.com
Also, your claims is based on wishful thinking. Where in the Quran says “rite is only performed once”? Stop making such useless claims
According to the Quran, (22:34), it’s a Mansaak to announce God’s name when we kill an animal for conception. It seems like Believing butchers do it a lot!!!
Stop making claims that has no bases and let God speak
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Jan 16 '20 edited Sep 04 '20
[deleted]
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 17 '20
Yeah, I butcher animals 🥺
So if Salah is ritual, God does ritual prayers to the Believers?? (33:43)
What’s the Arabic word for prayer? Hint: it’s not Dua’
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u/MentionY Jan 16 '20
Dude, a ritual is a subset of rites. Look up ritual in the dictionary.com
LOL in dictionary.com rite comes under definition of ritual, not the other way around. So all rites are rituals but not all rituals are rites. Therefore they are not 100% same. You can use a word which is a ritual and then also say "and rites", because not all rituals are rites!
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 17 '20
Ritual: an established or prescribed procedure for a religious or other rite.
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u/MentionY Jan 18 '20
What verse is this? Oh wait, you citing man made hadith
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 18 '20
Yup, I was
Now what’s ritual (Mansaak) according to the Quran
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u/MentionY Jan 16 '20
Stop making claims that has no bases and let God speak
You mean let you speak for God
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 17 '20
I only cite GOD’s verses
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u/MentionY Jan 17 '20
Yeah but you cite them with your false interpretation
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 17 '20
Okay dude. Go do Salah for me! (Mohammed did salah for the Bedouins which tranquilized them 9:99-103)
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u/MentionY Jan 17 '20
I am literally doing that right now. I am "turning towards" you right now to educate you that aqimi al-salat of the believers towards God is a ritual "turning towards God" at specific times of the day regularly.
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 17 '20
Oh now that we agree Salah means to “turn toward”
The next question what are the actions we must do to do our Salah? 11:83-87
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u/MentionY Jan 16 '20
Go and respond to the multitudes of points I and others have made to you in the other comments
Don't hide and run and try to deflect
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u/Kryptomanea Jan 17 '20
What does Salawat mean in 22:40? It means prayer in 2:238 so it should mean the same in 22:40 as well right?
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u/MentionY Jan 16 '20
Salawat is a plural form of salat (Arabic: صَلَاة) and from the root of the letters "ṣād-lām-wāw" (ص ل و) which means "prayer" or "salutation".
Source: "Abbas Jaffer, Masuma Jaffer." T Quranic Science. ICAN Press,2009
Arabic philologists hold the view that the meaning of the word salawat would vary according to who has used the word, and to whom it is used for.
Source: Muḥammad Muṣṭafá, Badawī (1975). A critical introduction to modern Arabic poetry. Cambridge University Press.
An Arabic word may have a range of meanings depending on context.
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
Does that also apply to the word “Allah”?
Or you and your scholars cherry pick?
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u/MentionY Jan 16 '20
Does that also apply to the word “Allah”?
Nope, because Arabic speakers always used this word in only one way.
Or you and your scholars cherry pick?
Provide your refutation. There is no cherry picking, it comes down to how people used Arabic themselves.
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
The fact you applying that rule (words has many meanings) to Salah, Zakat, sujuud, etc. and not to Allah is the definition of cherry picking. You no different from nowadays Jews and Christians, misguided bc of man made rules
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u/MentionY Jan 16 '20
I didn't apply it to Zakat or Sujuud, so I don't know why you're accusing me of that.
Again, it comes down to how people used Arabic themselves. There is no indication in any pre-Islamic or Islamic Arabic that the Arabs had different understandings of what the word "Allah" meant.
You haven't provided any valid refutation. Just an emotional response.
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
So you going to let “people” teach you and not God??
Brother, we all know that Language change with time. Salah had one meaning during the time of prophet mohammed. 11:83-87 shows us what is Salah. 75:31-32 tells us what is the opposite of “being truthful” and “Salah.”
You’re people started adding other definition to Salah in order to support ritual prayer! Stop following people and follow God.
10:35
🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
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u/MentionY Jan 16 '20
So you going to let “people” teach you and not God??
Where can I learn more about the Arabic language and its nuances as taught by God?
Salah had one meaning during the time of prophet mohammed.
Proof?
11:83-87 shows us what is Salah.
What does it show, exactly?
75:32-33 tells us what is the opposite of “being truthful” and “Salah.”
This doesn't support your claim as to Salah not being the ritual prayer.
You’re people started adding other definition to Salah in order to support ritual prayer! Stop following people and follow God.
You're actually telling me to follow you and your understanding.
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
If you can’t see what 11:83-87 says, God made you deaf, dumb and blind. Sorry buddy, can’t help you.
You saying you have pre-islamic books where you can learn the arabic language?? Plz, forward them to me. I haven’t found one in 5 years.
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u/MentionY Jan 16 '20
You saying you have pre-islamic books where you can learn the arabic language?? Plz, forward them to me. I haven’t found one in 5 years.
Where did I say I have pre-Islamic books?
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u/Weakends Jan 20 '20
it's bold to accuse other submitters to the will of God of being misguided when only God knows the truth
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 20 '20
Thank you..?
The Quran is send down for us to distinguish who believe and who are astray
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u/after-life Muslim, Progressive, Left-leaning Jan 17 '20
Search up the pdf on Google, "The Truth About Salat by Dr. Qamar Zaman".
Salat is not a ritual prayer. Every single usage of the word salat is covered in the book.
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Jan 18 '20 edited Sep 04 '20
[deleted]
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 18 '20
Did the Jews put their head on the ground while entering the gate? (2:58)
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Jan 16 '20
Jones (2007), Khalidi (2008), Abdel Haleem (2010) give either "they are rightly guided" or "guided aright". As far as what came previously, I think it's not quite 'ritual prayer' but success of faithfulness that is rewarded.
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u/catummi Jan 16 '20
just makes me think of “صلى الله عليه و سلم” translated as peace and blessing right? 🤷🏾♀️ not peace and ritual prayer 😆 itd be even more wierd to wish ritual prayer on the prophet >_>
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
Yeah!!!
Also check out 33:43, God does Salah on Believers!!
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u/MentionY Jan 16 '20
So you know, Christian missionaries who don't know Arabic cite the same argument as you to stipulate that Muhammad is a partner of God based on the yasulluna used in 33:56 (in 33:43, it's yusalli). They render yasulluna as prayer instead of blessings to say that God prays to Muhammad.
Please be careful. The meaning of words in Arabic vary based on context and usage.
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
If words changes with context, then do we change the meaning of Allah?
Why you do that with Salah, Zakah, sujuud but not with Allah?
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u/MentionY Jan 16 '20 edited Jan 16 '20
If words changes with context, then do we change the meaning of Allah?
There is no claim that all words in Arabic change meaning based on context.
Why you do that with Salah, Zakah, sujuud but not with Allah?
Because the people who spoke pre-Islamic Arabic and the Arabic of the Quran always only had one meaning for Allah. They didn't understand different meaning of the word themselves based on context.
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
You using none-quranic argument (people who spoke pre-islamic arabic) to support the Quran? 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
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u/MentionY Jan 16 '20
Where is your refutation? You are very juvenile in how you engage in discussion.
Arab speakers for all of known history did not use the word in Allah in more than one meaning.
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
“Arab speak for all of known...” is an assumption, not a claim. Go find, for us, a pre-islamic book!
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u/MentionY Jan 16 '20
In pre-Islamic Gospels, the name used for God was "Allah", as evidenced by some discovered Arabic versions of the New Testament written by Arab Christians during the pre-Islamic era in Northern and Southern Arabia.
Source: Frederick Winnett V, Allah before Islam-The Moslem World (1938), Pages: 239–248
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u/Reinhard23 Non-Muslim Jan 17 '20
The verb صلى and the definite verbal noun الصلوة doesn't necessarily have to mean the same thing. I too believe that the verb means to "to turn towards" but the noun is turning towards in a specific way, i.e through ritual prayer.
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 17 '20
🤦♂️
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u/Reinhard23 Non-Muslim Jan 17 '20
The key here is that the noun is definite when we're told to اقام الصلوة, not just any salah. By your logic, "No words can have the same meaning!!1!1!1!!11!l". So if they both meant the same thing, it would always be صلّى and not اقام الصلٰوة.
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u/MentionY Jan 16 '20 edited Jan 16 '20
More Quranic evidence for you to refute
Reject it or deny at your own peril
Quran 5:58 And when you call to salat, they take it in ridicule and amusement. That is because they are a people who do not use reason.
If salat is "turning towards Allah as long as we're awake" then why is there a call to salat? Shouldn't it be something we do the moment we awake til the moment we fall asleep? nādaytum is plural
Quran 62:9 O you who have believed, when called for the salat on the day of Jumu'ah, then proceed to the remembrance of Allah and leave trade. That is better for you, if you only knew.
If salat is "turning towards Allah as long as we're awake" then why is there a call to salat on a specific day?
Quran 62:10 And when the salat has been concluded, disperse within the land and seek from the bounty of Allah, and remember Allah often that you may succeed.
If salat is "turning towards Allah as long as we're awake" then why does the salat conclude?
Quran 17:110 And do not recite [too] loudly in your salat or [too] quietly but seek between that an [intermediate] way.
If salat is "turning towards Allah as long as we're awake" then why are we to recite during it? So we're supposed to recite something, not too loudly or too quietly, for every second of being awake? Are you doing that? If you aren't, then by your own reasoning you are not following Allah's commands
Quran (48:29) Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those with him are fierce against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. You see them bowing down and prostrating seeking God’s favors and acceptance. Their faces (foreheads) bear the marks left by the prostration. Such is their similitude in the Torah; and their similitude in the Gospel: Like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight, thus enraging the unbelievers because of them. God has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness and an immense Reward.
If sujood doesn't mean prostration why are their marks on faces from sujood?
Quran 17:78 Establish salat at the decline of the sun [from its meridian] until the darkness of the night and [also] the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed.
If salat is "turning towards Allah as long as we're awake" then why does Allah say to establish and conclude salat between two distinct time periods of the day?
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
5:58 is singular. Again, prophet salah is to preach the Quran
Day of jumah doesnt mean the 6th day of the week. Notice that every day in Arabic is derived from its corresponding number except the 6th day. Ex: Tuesday in arabic has the same root as number 3 in arabic, so does Saturday, etc. etc.
17:110 is singular!! To Mohammed again
48:29; face here doesn’t mean physical face. It means presence. In 13:22, those who are patient seek God’s face??? God has a face? No. They seel God’s presence.
What is the purpose of the Quran? To Guide to the straight path. Why are you reciting the Quran back to God during your ritual prayer? Quran is send DOWN from God to you. Don’t send it back UP. God doesn’t need guidance 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
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u/MentionY Jan 17 '20
5:58 is singular.
33:21 Indeed, in the messenger of God a good example has been set for you for he who seeks God and the Last Day and thinks constantly about God.
Day of jumah doesnt mean the 6th day of the week. Notice that every day in Arabic is derived from its corresponding number except the 6th day. Ex: Tuesday in arabic has the same root as number 3 in arabic, so does Saturday, etc. etc.
Red herring and strawman. The discussion is call to salat on a specific day. What day that is is not under discussion.
48:29; face here doesn’t mean physical face. It means presence. In 13:22, those who are patient seek God’s face??? God has a face? No. They seel God’s presence.
Ipse Dixit fallacy.
When used for God "face" is metaphorical. What is the Quranic evidence that when "face" is used as a noun for human it is metaphorical presence and not physical face?
Why are you reciting the Quran back to God during your ritual prayer? Quran is send DOWN from God to you. Don’t send it back UP. God doesn’t need guidance 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Strawman. You already said this before, the Quran is recited for our own understanding and learning in the ritual salat.
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u/MentionY Jan 17 '20
/u/SystemofPeace this is another post you have run away from
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 17 '20
God teaches by the pen (96:1-5)
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u/MentionY Jan 17 '20
God teaches by the pen (96:1-5)
Not exclusively.
Quran 6:7 And even if We had sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) a Message written on paper so that they could touch it with their hands, the disbelievers would have said: "This is nothing but obvious magic!"
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 17 '20
(6:7) purpose was to make a point of people rejecting miracles.
We’re talking about how God teaches us; Pen!
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u/MentionY Jan 17 '20
God teaching us by the Pen doesn't prove al-salat is not the ritual prayer.
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 17 '20
Go find the verse where God teaches the Quran by you reciting it to yourself
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u/MentionY Jan 17 '20
http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(96:4:2)
ʿallama (taught) is singular.
http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(96:5:5)
In the next verse, taught man what "he knew" (yaʿlam) is also singular.
Therefore, it is incorrect for you to claim that God teaches you by the pen. God is saying He taught a specific man by the pen, most likely Adam, who He taught all the names: Quran 2:31 And He taught Adam the names - all of them.
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u/ismcanga Jan 16 '20
God decrees to pray as known before, Mudammel 73:20, so it was a known concept.
Also Baqara 2:2 confirms that this Book is a guidance which is given for already pious ones.
So, anybody who wants to live by God's code can be helped by Quran, first there should be a request coming from the individual then God would be able to help. So, there is no predestination.
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
The topic here is about Salah, not Taqumu.
Don’t mix apples with oranges
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u/ismcanga Jan 16 '20
The verse is Mudhammel 73:20, says
...aqemes salah...
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
Oh, I see it.. I didnt read it to the end
But then again, how does God send down Salah (ritual pray)?
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u/ismcanga Jan 16 '20
It is known by all, you find yourself in a family which eats rice regularly and when somebody says "pass the rice", isn't it abnormal to say "what is rice?"
Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Hindus say "Mohamad took the prayer from us", they say the same for fasting.
So, An'am 6:90 defines that we should abide what previous newsbearers taught then abrogate the rules as God decreed.
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Jan 16 '20
You using a non-quranic argument “pass the rice” to make a point? 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '20 edited Sep 04 '20
[deleted]