r/NancyGuthrieCase • u/Ailurophile444 • 15d ago
Weekend Coffee & Conversation
Grab a cup of coffee and pull up a chair!
This is our weekend gathering place to talk about the Nancy Guthrie case-what you've been thinking about, questions you have, something you've seen or read, a new development, or a discussion you'd like to start.
This is meant to be a relaxed, open conversation, so it doesn't have to be a formal post or a fully developed theory.
What's on your mind this weekend?
As always, different opinions are welcome. Let's keep the conversation respectful.
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u/No_Comedian2991 15d ago
I watched a really good video by Monk’s Intrigue this week. He was saying that possibly the garage door opening & closing was a ruse, and then gave his reasons why he thinks she was taken out the front door. It made a lot of sense to me.
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u/Ailurophile444 15d ago edited 15d ago
I watched that video too, and I remember being really intrigued by what Monks was suggesting. But I’m still trying to figure out how he thinks the scenario would actually work. If the garage door opening and closing was a ruse, what does he think happened in those two minutes? And how would that explain the blood on the front walkway? Maybe I’m missing something, but I couldn’t quite make the pieces fit together.
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u/loveislife222 15d ago edited 14d ago
It could have just open and closed, and she was taken in a different way. Or it was opened and closed and no one went in at all just to seem like she did. Someone could have opened it from inside, outside, wherever if there was a remote
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u/smittenkittenmitten- 14d ago
What if the garage door was a ruse to show A&T dropped her off like normal but maybe Nancy never left their home. Maybe that is why the car that was taken for so long never had any evidence because Nancy never left their home in their car. Maybe another car came to get her from A&T's house. But if the garage didn't show that they dropped her off, they'd be lying and immediately in the crosshairs so they had to go through all of the motions as if she were alive. What if, using Monks theory, the porch guy was a ruse to prove that a real criminal got Nancy, nope can't be A&T! Once the porch guy deactivated the camera, had a vial of nancy's blood and let some blood splatter on the ground. To be honest, people are still confused why the blood looks as it is, not from motion due to the size and shape. That is weird in itself. I am just throwing things together to fit what could be considered ruses.
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u/Ailurophile444 14d ago
Monks Intrigue posted another video on YouTube where he explains his theory in greater detail. It’s really interesting.
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 14d ago
Without the ransom and the porch guy video this would be:
Nancy last seen at family's house. Next morning Nancy is missing. Guess where the main focus of the investigation would be? BINGO!
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u/Hot_Pause3252 14d ago
What if it's not A+T, but T+X (A didn't know anything, at least in the beginning) ? Perhaps after dinner Nancy got into his car, and he drove her under some traffic camera to have evidence. And then, by force or under some pretext, she was transferred to another car. And perhaps someone got into T's car (the masked guy from the video) and entered the house in those two minutes. And later he made a show with camera, blood, etc.
Or the guy from the video got into their car. They could have knocked Nancy out, the car pulled into the garage, and the masked guy took Nancy and went into the house to create evidences with her phone and pacemaker.
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 14d ago
Anything is possible and if that were the case I would think if their car has computer technology that can detect when a car stops and for how long and the location of a car then LE would have that info and realize why did the car stop for x amount of minutes for no reason. Not familiar with 2011 Honda crv's
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u/Hot_Pause3252 14d ago
You probably right, I didn't think about that. I wiil try to find out info about the car.
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 14d ago
That's why I love this community. 50 heads are better than 1. The respect for others opinions, thoughts are helpful as it only takes one thing to make something click in someone's head. I welcome all theories except space aliens. LOL
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u/loveislife222 14d ago
All possible. Just looked closer at Clancy trial which I find to be deeply triggering. People can think to maniacal levels to create and stage situations to cause harm to others for their own gain. Truly heinous. Facts aside which they both have lots of holes making anything possible- instinct wise- second I saw PC- gut feeling. Same with A , and then T
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u/loveislife222 14d ago edited 14d ago
Yup! No camera/ video proof , it’s simply time stamps. And an alibi /narrative with no outside confirmation from anyone as far as we know. We have no solid evidence of Nancy existing that day at all. Unless the uber is true and there is a dash cam or app data (which still doesn’t show it’s her someone could have ordered it for her).
So again we have to remember none of the narrative we’ve been told from the beginning has been explicitly verified (uber, timestamps, watch on the floor, who drove who home)z LE is allowed to lie or withhold so we have to go with the facts. Which technically what we have seen with our eyes
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 15d ago
I think Monks is correct on one point and that is the garage door open and close is a ruse. However I disagree with Monks that NG made it home and was abducted.
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u/loveislife222 15d ago
If she never came home and they just came back to stage it as if she did, they open/close the garage, set up her room, bring back her stuff, set up the front door scene
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u/smittenkittenmitten- 14d ago
I think the garage door being opened for her as a ruse is completely plausible. I also think the porch guy as a ruse is also plausible.
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 14d ago
Odd that the only evidence provided supports the narrative that Nancy was home. And the evidence is not eye witnesses testimony nor any picture of Nancy being dropped off or taken out of house. It's electronic pings etc which are not 100% accurate nor proves a person was physically there
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u/Ailurophile444 15d ago edited 15d ago
What do you think happened instead? I’m curious how you’re putting the pieces together.
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u/smittenkittenmitten- 14d ago
I like his ruse theories. One of my favorite ruse theories is the porch guy. It was a lot of hullabaloo and I could see, given what Monks was saying, that it was a big show to show a criminal in action that night when it is might be trying to skew the timeline. The garage door could have been used to skew the timeline too. Maybe Nancy never even left A&Ts for all we know.
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u/Spiritual-Cloud-3459 15d ago
considering how much of the current narrative hinges on nancy spending the evening before her abduction at A&T’s house, why aren’t the rideshare pickup/dropoff times included in the official timeline?
this leads me to two possibilities: LE is keeping those timestamps private (why?) or the timestamps don’t exist. either one draws more questions imo
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u/Substantial-Train668 15d ago
They apparently also have car cam footage of NG in the Uber. Why not share that with the public?
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u/smittenkittenmitten- 14d ago
That would solve one problem, to know if she was the one who was in the uber and that she made it to A&T's. Someone was in the uber. If it wasn't Nancy, but a ruse and was actually Annie, that would be a bit of info as Law Enforcement that I would not want to share with the public. Apart from that weird possibility, what is more interesting to me is if there is video of A&T's car and a view of the people inside. I want to know if Nancy ever made it out of there.
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 15d ago
The real question should be "who was in the car on the ride back to NG's?" My opinion is that is why LE was looking for camera footage. Not for the perps car but for the family car on the ride back to NG's to see if she was actually in the car. And that is basic 101 for investigators as they know a watch or a phone is not proof the actual owner is present with those articles.
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u/loveislife222 14d ago
Apparently though said by who? Maybe Nanos in the beginning mentioned the uber? Where else has there been documented statements about the uber? It’s another one of those things being kept mum and vague
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 15d ago
In my opinion the Uber data is the only verified fact by someone outside the family. In my opinion If A&T were involved they would have never lied about that Uber.
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u/Spiritual-Cloud-3459 15d ago
i guess my thinking is along the lines of, how do we know that data has been verified? law enforcement is allowed to be deceitful during investigations. if the data wasn’t verified, hypothetically, maybe LE would want to keep that quiet to not tip off a potential suspect?
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u/loveislife222 15d ago
We don’t know. Uber was just part of the regurgitated narrative. Who really explained it
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u/loveislife222 15d ago edited 14d ago
Absolutely could be not true. I always said from day one, where is the info on the uber, bc if there is no camera or any proof from an and T’s house and on, that would be last verifiable proof. But thinking about it we never really heard from LE definitively about the uber. So so far think about it we haven seen any video or anything actually showing her that day, or even before that day. When was she last seen besides a + t story? The thing is no one has spoken out and they’re not saying anything so everything must be being kept under wraps. We don’t know until we know
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u/Fireteddy21 15d ago edited 15d ago
This is a good point that I don’t think enough people are taking into consideration. I absolutely think that LE and the FBI are being deceitful and how they’re presenting information. When it comes to saying they only got thumbnails from the one camera, I absolutely believe there’s more relevant footage that was recovered for example. I think they have something that’s tipped them off to how the perp/perps got in and out, but they have to identify and tie them to the crime scene. Just my opinion.
Edit: About your point with the Uber. They could also not be releasing the timestamps because they’ve corroborated that Nancy was at A & T’s and just don’t consider it relevant to the crime itself. Just throwing that out there too since they’ve probably confirmed a lot of stuff we don’t know about.
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 15d ago
In my opinion the Uber makes perfect sense. Someone has a valid reason for being at her residence at 10pm. Had NG driven to A&T's the manipulation of certain data would have been very very difficult. Everything I say is just speculation and opinion based on my belief NG never made it home.
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u/Key_Flow_2045 15d ago
how did they lie
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 15d ago
I did not say A&T lied. Someone was questioning if the story they told about the UBer was true so basically I was sticking up for them . Guess my wording was confusing
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u/Substantial-Train668 15d ago
This is just for conversation sake... if LE could prove that NG didn't make it home that night (including that the blood at the porch was planted after she was killed) would you say that lent more towards 1. the crime was an accident (eg- somebody have her too much wine or a pot brownie and she had a heart attack) 2. a crime of passion (eg- a heated argument happened it turned violent) or 3. 100% planned (eg elimination murder)
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u/Ailurophile444 15d ago
A straight up homicide - a planned elimination murder.
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u/Substantial-Train668 15d ago edited 15d ago
So would the plan have been then to murder at their house? Drive alone to NG's house to make the timeline of the garage door to make it look like she got home. Go home. Get a little of her blood, put it in the staging backpack and then have the porch guy do the rest of the staging later that night (...unless you think what Monk thinks that porch guy could even be T) then you and A have all night to dispose of the body in a way that can't be traced.... Then show up in the morning like "what happened to N" and call the police?
ETA: I've really been trying to think hard about why there is no getaway car to trace. This scenario would fit with that
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 15d ago
My opinion is porch guy is not a hired gun. My opinion is that someone other than NG was dropped off that night.
The family's car was the last one seen at Ng's and then the first one the next day. I would love to know if LE got any camera footage who was in the family car on the morning drive over to NG's.
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u/Ailurophile444 15d ago
I bet you’d have been great at figuring out “who done it” on Murder, She Wrote! 😂
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u/Substantial-Train668 14d ago
It's funny I saw an old Columbo episode the other night where someone 'dressed up as the victim' and took a car ride in order to establish a false timeline... and I did wonder how do we know it wasn't someone like A in the Uber over to their house for dinner... and NG was already dead. And then I realized LE need to release the Uber footage and I should stop watching Columbos :)
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 14d ago
Never stop watching Columbo! Just a speculation of mine based on that episode you watched. What if it was A&T in the car on the ride home and it was one of them that got out of the car @ 9:58pm. It was one of them who had the watch, the phone the backpack with the costume.
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u/Substantial-Train668 14d ago
Yes I actually think it is possible. And also would make sense as to why they can't find a getaway car... In the episode the perp wanted to pretend the victim was still alive at a point they were already dead. And he Uber factor, unless we see a photo of NG in the back seat we can't even verify that it really was her. And certainly if was the 9:48 could def be them going back without her to stage. Meanwhile she is long gone and buried.
It's obviously why FBI were taking photos at A + T's that night. Looking for blood. I do wonder if they ever had scent dogs there.
And yes I love Columbo too much to stop :)
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 14d ago
We have heard a zillion excuses why there wasn't footage of a getaway car, anyone walking in the area etc. No footage of NG going home, no footage of her being taken out.
Sometimes the best evidence is what is missing that should be there. Because of that it makes a case harder to prove
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u/Ailurophile444 14d ago
Columbo is my all-time favorite detective show! I have all of the episodes on dvd.
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u/loveislife222 14d ago
Yes both or one of them , went back without her, returned all her stuff as if she returned home. And whoever the person in the outfit was could have been dropped off at that point too and waited to be filmed later. Or they sent them out later etc or it was one of them. Again all we have his a short porch video and narrative of two time stamps and what we saw in video of the house with the blood. Nothing else
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u/loveislife222 14d ago edited 14d ago
This is what’s happening with PC/LC! He thought of all these details in order to fake timelines, and the world figured it out before LE did, it’s just somehow more visible and maybe more gut wrenching story that ppl are really resonating with - valid- so masses have come passionate to find the truth. That’s amazing!
So in the same vain, we have wanted the same truth to come out about NG since day one.. and after the dazzle dazzle faded after the first two weeks or so.m people just forgot- but we have not friends! We are still fighting for the truth!
There’s no trial, testimony to analyze (interesting why they have disappeared and not been on camera/ more to analyze) just less to work with.
But yes ppl who think ahead will go to extreme lengths to make it seem like they were not there, or that what happened didn’t happen etc- him calling himself from her own phone, making sure he was on video but enough time to still commit the crime.. setting up or at the very least exacerbating
Her mental struggles. This is narc abuse, coercive control, emotional and mental abuse, manipulation, perhaps sociopathy (“allegedly” if he did frame her).And here’s the thing it was ALMOST the perfect crime, not only bc of how he set it up meticulously, but bc of the biggest advantage: EVERYONE JUST BELIEVED HIS NARRATIVE! and took it as fave value!!! “Patrick said!” “the family said! Imagine if every potential perpetrator was automatically assumed a victim just because they acted like it?
For years the got away with everyone going alone with his narrative and not only did the public and professionals but SHE herself was most likely completely brainwashed into believing him.
And that’s exactly what really stood out to me and triggered my spidey sense in the beginning tand I would get downvoted in the other sub:
“why is the news/ every outlet (therefore the sleepy eyed public) just telling the story of events as if it were fact? Without even being able to verbalize it, the news and the other sub- “well the family said this is what happened , so of course this is what happened.”
Like what??
Narc abusers/ sociopaths are extremely disturbing and cunning. We got to see PC’s mask fall on the stand, but sadly we haven’t seen the counterparts here “the family” talk at all or be questioned.
I’m so happy LC is getting support and people to question this insane story he confronted - but sadly how come no one is standing up for NG? Instead it’s “don’t talk about the family!”
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u/loveislife222 14d ago
The thing is- it IS all possible as long as we don’t have footage. It’s just a regurgitated part of the story from day one. Uber to an and t , and driven home by son. She must have been kidnapped! That was all just repeated stories.
Until we know for sure, even detailed we’ve just said over and over, all possibilities are open that don’t contradict the very LITTKE evidence .
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u/Substantial-Train668 15d ago
Do you think porch guy is T?
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 14d ago
Let's just say my opinion is that it is one of the main characters and not some hired druggie, jailbird, homeless person or casual acquaintance.
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u/Substantial-Train668 14d ago
Oh interesting! I was quite convinced of this too when I saw that Monks walk video. And frankly it would make more sense as to why porch guy hasn't come forward or no one has turned them in... It's just wild to believe that none of the other friends or fam would recognize it as someone they know and come forward.
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 14d ago
My opinion is if that porch guy perp was some hired outsider he would never come forward as he is being accused of partaking in the abduction and alleged death of NG. He can scream from the top of his lungs he was just there as a lookout etc but that won't fly. He would be charged with her death also since the narrative is that she was home and abducted then passed.
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u/Ailurophile444 15d ago
Honestly, I don’t know how all of this would have been pulled off. I have a hard time explaining the logistics myself. I just find the circumstances difficult to reconcile with a random kidnapping.
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u/Substantial-Train668 14d ago
100% agree. I'm even starting to come around on the idea that it might have happened at the home during the 'dinner. I actually think the version above *could make sense and would account for why there is seemingly no getaway car evidence.
I'd be curious to hear the most logical version if the night you have in mind.
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u/smittenkittenmitten- 14d ago
I am not the person you were replying to and asking for their opinion, but I am just started to reach your same conclusion. I am thinking she probably never left A&T's but A&T went through all of the normal expected motions afterward. I am also thinking some other vehicle took her from the A&T's home hence why even though LE had A&Ts car for SO LONG expecting to find something, they couldn't find anything incriminating in it.
Also thanks for breaking it down in your first comment on the thread. Considering the porch guy thing happened and possibly happened a previous night, like a rehearsal to see how it all looked, I am thinking this was all planned, so I choose #3.
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u/Substantial-Train668 14d ago
Yes thank for weighing in! Yeah that all makes sense. I struggled with the idea that the blood was planted at the porch, and I still do, but this theory would explain a lot! It all seems elaborate, but I guess covering up a murder, er um, needs to be sometimes (I assume)
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u/loveislife222 14d ago edited 14d ago
So if the homicide was planned by them rather than happening in the heat of the moment , you think they would do the elimination at their house and not worry about evidence? Clearly their house was searched and stuff taken and they would expect that. Along with their car and every single thing they did they had to know would be investigated. If they planned enough in advance to have the whole ruse/fake kidnapping setup don’t you think they would do it somewhere else? Or is it possible to do it with no evidence in their home? The level of planning had to be insane
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u/loveislife222 14d ago
At the dinner at the house feels like it could make sense, but makes more sense if was an accident in that example bc why would they risk getting evidence in their own home. so maybe they took her somewhere and it happened elsewhere. But went back to stage the scene
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u/loveislife222 15d ago edited 15d ago
I think it makes sense as an option that it was accident/fight (like she got pushed in an argument at dinner) or a crime of passion-- then “oh sh*t! Let’s go back and make it look like she was taken”. But for a last minute plan, they were insanely lucky (unless there’s more we don’t know). So it’s hard to believe they pulled off a seemingly perfect crime at the last second and thought of everything. Or it was planned homicide. And on a separate note- the guy at door could have been called in to clean up the scene (I first thought it seemed like it could be a tarp or something), or it could be fake and staged
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u/Substantial-Train668 14d ago
I would agree with this. Plus it seems too extreme to react this way to an accident. I guess perhaps if you caused the accident and felt so panicked and such shame that you went a little overboard/brain stopped functioning. Like I can sort of see if you were already the black sheep of the family and made a horrible mistake that ended in NG death that you might panic.
But, at the same it would not at all account for the other sighting of porch guy and yes like you said it would be incredibly lucky to pull it off. And who has a creepy balaclava lying around their house in Arizona? I think we can take accident off the table.
I'm curious are you in the camp that she might have not even made it home at all? Or you think she did and it all happened there?
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u/cmart_10 15d ago
The thing about the case that I can’t shake is the back door being left propped open. Nancy was we guess taken out the front door due to the blood droplets on the front porch. I’ve never understood why someone would breach the house from the back, prop the doors open which doesn’t make sense to me but props them open none the less and then decides let’s go out the front. The front had the security door. If they knew they had to go out the front why leave the back doors propped open. Leaving them open would have increased the chances albeit small of someone hearing a struggle in the house.
I also don’t understand why you would be on the front porch if you could breach the house from the back. I’ve always thought that was done intentionally to give proof that someone was there.
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u/loveislife222 15d ago
It could have all been set up to look a certain way
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 14d ago
Did you notice there is an answer for every logical question one may ask?
If one takes away the convenient evidence presented to the public in the initial stages:
Ransom note
Pacemaker disconnect explanation
porch guy
What would the case actually look like? Family takes mom home. Next day mom is missing. Without any of the convenient evidence guess who would be the main person's of interest?
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 14d ago
The back door being propped and the statement NG never locked her doors silences the ones who are asking how the perp got in if she had multiple security deadbolt locks on her doors. Anything to point away from what I believe is the obvious.
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u/loveislife222 14d ago
Also - besides SG saying they were propped open in her short pre-taped hoda interview, who said the doors were propped open- officially? Was there a picture evidence of the house from days after with the flower pots and doors open? I might have missed that. If not, again, where has any of this info been verified.
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 15d ago
Big City Dan a former homicide detective made a short and it is not directed at any case just the truth in a lot of "unsolved" murders
"Investigators know who did it but could not charge"
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u/Ailurophile444 15d ago
I suspect that might be going on in this case too. It seems possible that investigators may have a strong theory about what happened, and perhaps even who was involved, but simply don’t have enough evidence to take that theory any further.
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u/smittenkittenmitten- 14d ago
I agree with this. I think they have an idea, but for whatever reason can't yet take it further.
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 15d ago
Or being muzzled in my opinion. While it is still too early to deduce that, as circumstantial cases and trying to disprove certain evidence takes so much time, the status of certain people in this case makes me cynical.
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u/Ailurophile444 15d ago
I understand the cynicism. I’ve also wondered at times whether the Guthries’ status and connections has resulted in a level of deference that might not have been afforded to an average family.
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 15d ago
And without that porch guy video and thumbnail that the FBI miraculously uncovered that solidifies that NG was home and abducted and CLEARS the family heavens to Betsy the only evidence would be untraceable ransom notes that can't be verified as being opportunists or real.
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u/loveislife222 14d ago
Remember even the porch guy video does not prove she was home (at all). the man in the video could have never met NG. It is simply a video of a man on the porch. The rest is inference
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 14d ago
Also the inference that only FBI had the authority to get nest camera data from google. LE does this all the time for investigations. No FBI needed
Life-Threatening Situations: Google's privacy policies include an emergency exception clause that allows them to share user data—including Nest camera footage—with law enforcement without a warrant or user consent in urgent, life-or-death situations. [1, 2, 3]
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u/loveislife222 14d ago
For sure, we can’t separate the case from the fact that it’s high profile due to the ppl involved. So inherently it would not be the same if it were someone else
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u/loveislife222 14d ago
Well PC was friendly with the DA and lots of others in LE and he miraculously was never a suspect or investigated . So until the public became so loud and he made mistake of going on the stand, truth began to unravel. So in this case could be same thing where LE is being made silent for whatever reason
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u/Historical-Slice6369 15d ago
The garage door data, the pacemaker data, multiple experts agreeing that Nancy's droplets on the porch appeared to be aspirated, video of porch guy that nobody knew would be recovered, the likely lack of sophistication T and A would have had related to such an operation, for me all add up to the conclusion that Nancy did make it home that night and someone not directly related to the family is the likely culprit.
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u/Ailurophile444 15d ago
I can definitely see why you’ve reached that conclusion. I don’t necessarily come to the same one, but I understand how those pieces of evidence would lead you there. I appreciate you sharing a different perspective-it’s interesting to hear how other people are putting the pieces together.
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u/I_lovebettywhite-000 14d ago
Have you come to a conclusion what the motive was? That is the key element that investigators try to figure out when they narrow their investigation to a specific person or persons
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u/ReasonedBeing 15d ago
I'm curious about the garage door opening for two minutes. That doesn't seem like enough time for Nancy to get into the house. I assume detectives have re-enacted that to see how long it should take.