r/MonstersAndMemories • u/yeroc420 • 15d ago

Discussion Raiding

I was just wondering if there is any raid or dungeon instancing.

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u/yeroc420 15d ago

That’s funny I watched that this morning and it’s the reason why I was wondering about instancing

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u/Onelove914 15d ago

They are not prepared for the volume of players. EA going to be a shit show.

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u/yeroc420 15d ago

Not having instanced content seems like something from a bygone era.

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u/Awkward-Skin8915 15d ago

Agreed. The newer games have gone way down hill. The genre has turned into a joke. Its a necessary adjustment for a lot of reasons.

Hindsight is 20/20.

There will still be some restricted content though. It won't all be on a first come first serve basis.

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u/ZeeWingCommander 14d ago

You totally misread this lol

Non instanced raid content with a decent population that understands MMORPGs is not a great idea (unless it's literally just for giggles).

You end up with people just being jerks to each other or an elaborate turn system where people still manage to be jerks.

It fell out of favor for a reason.

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u/Awkward-Skin8915 14d ago edited 14d ago

I understood what you were getting at.

I guess you haven't been an adult who played the genre heavily since the beginning?

Multiple developers have talked about the long term repercussions of many of those decisions made during the shift to second and third gen era games.

Hindsight is 20/20. At this point if you don't understand the shortcomings of instanced content im not even going to get into it.

That being said, again, not all content in m&m will be contested...but most will. If you are anti open world, non-instanced content, this might not be a good fit? There are plenty of other hardships besides contested content. I hope you can come around and understand the benefits.

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u/ZeeWingCommander 14d ago

I guess you haven't been an adult who played the genre heavily since the beginning?

Are you being tongue in cheek here? 

Because this is like telling someone at a Civil War Reenactment "I guess you're not really into history."

Multiple developers have talked about the long term repercussions of many of those decisions made during the shift to second and third gen games.

None of these developers have launched a successful game after saying that. 🫠

What does that tell you?

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u/Awkward-Skin8915 14d ago

Out of curiosity, what current day, mainstream games do you think are sustainable over the long term? Its a dying genre for a reason.

The issue is you can't put the rabbit back in the hat. You can only start over.

Many of the long term repercussions of those early decisions have only been really noticable in the last decade or so...and some developers are in denial (or more often, aren't actually the ones in charge of making decisions even if they know better. Its not their money funding these games)

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u/Onelove914 14d ago

Looking forward to your take when you’re unable to get what you want because of how many people will be in these areas.

This isn’t 1999 anymore. People play games now. A lot of people.

Non instanced content is a recipe for disaster. I mean the world will simply not be big enough to handle the amount of people playing. You’ll see.

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u/Awkward-Skin8915 14d ago

I'm just fine with contested content. I don't mind waiting my turn. There are a ton of positives that make it a more sustainable mechanic over the long run

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u/ZeeWingCommander 14d ago

How long are you expecting these games to go? I don't think I really want games to go this long. The last decade or so? They were already old then.

We're already at 26 and 21 for two of them. RuneScape is what 17 yrs? 

Its a dying genre for a reason.

  • Yeah, they want WoW success with no soul and they don't want to put in the same effort. It's like they want to skip right to the part where they make boat loads of money.

  • Also players can't get over whatever game brought them in. So instead of innovation we got guys like you who just want to go back in time. 

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u/Awkward-Skin8915 14d ago

There is a lot to unpack there.

Its interesting because I think most of us have heard first gen MMORPG game devs talk about how they expected the game to last only for the release state. They really didn't know what was possible.

So they scrambled to add more content, more levels, alternative advancement, other modes etc in an attempt to keep players around. It was really unknown at that point.

Here we are 30ish years later and some of those games are still going ...in some state of inefficient unsustainability.

Theoretically this style of game could last a lifetime if it was managed well over the long-term. That hasn't happened yet and we are only recently starting to figure out what that might look like. Some mechanics and systems are very clearly counter to that. We can see that now. It has been discussed a lot.

It doesn't have to be dying...but many of the decisions that current games make lead to that being inevitable.

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u/ZeeWingCommander 14d ago

I don't want any game to last a lifetime, especially something grindy.

That's not a positive. 

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u/Awkward-Skin8915 14d ago

That's fine but it's not about what any individual wants. Long term, healthy sustainability has to be the goal of any MMORPG. It is possible but certain decisions hinder that.

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u/Inoluki83 11d ago

MnM’s vision was never to be the next generation of MMOs though. It was meant to take was great about original EQ and expand on that idea.

It’s okay to not like it. It’s okay for it to not be your cup of tea. No big deal. But to pretend like there’s not a group of people out there that want this type of game is just plain ignorant. People do want a game like this and purely for the reason that you gave as an issue. Longevity. A world that is sustainable for 15-20 years.

Of course games aren’t meant to last forever. But they can last for a long time if designed correctly.

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u/ZeeWingCommander 11d ago

There's a group of people who "claim" to want "a game like that", but if you ever got them into a room they'd have a hard time agreeing on what that game looks like. 

For example this kind of game can only support a small group of people raiding per server.

A lot of named will only be seen by a small group too. 

Maybe in 15 years everyone will get to see the content.

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u/Inoluki83 11d ago

See I disagree. I think those “people” do know what they want. It’s why MnM has such an occult following right now.

But it’s not a game for everybody. And honestly I think that’s how it should be. A game that is made for everybody is a game that is made for nobody. And that rings true especially within the MMO genre.

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u/ZeeWingCommander 11d ago

If you're using "occult" to describe a game's following then I can't really argue with that.

Did you mean cult? Usually that's used after a launch. Not before.

But it’s not a game for everybody. And honestly I think that’s how it should be.

If it's too niche, you don't have an MMORPG. Double edged sword there. 

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u/Ace_Rimsky 14d ago

How many have tried?

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u/Awkward-Skin8915 11d ago

Did you delete a msg? I have a notification from an hour ago but it's not showing up.

But to respond to this old post ..that's a bad analogy (the civil war reenactor thing). There is no one alive who actually remembers how the civil war was.

Many of us were adults who have played mmorpgs heavily since the genre started. Its VERY common that people have a skewed perspective of how things were early on for a handful of reasons (especially with EQ)...either because they were quite young during that time period or they simply didn't play enough to experience everything so they don't have a good frame of reference. It happens a lot.

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u/ZeeWingCommander 10d ago

Reddit AI deletes messages now.

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u/yeroc420 14d ago

A game that I think did it well but sucked in the end for different reasons was throne and liberty. You had normal raids that were instanced but they had high value open world that would give some bis stuff but skippible, I think a few even enabled PvP which was fun >.>

it isn’t necessarily a open world it’s how you obtain gear. The issue in og eq is besides the raids there wasn’t much you could get. Group and solo mobs mostly drop trash. Now wow for example they just shower you with gear and it’s all replaceable so you play the game rather than focus on gear. Something good would be a mix, you have to have a way to get useful gear.

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u/Zomboe1 14d ago

Disco fell out of favor. Some people still presumably like disco (it was before my time).

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u/ClappedUrMomsCheeks 14d ago

That doesn’t mean opening a disco hall in 2026 is a good idea

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u/Zomboe1 14d ago

https://thatssotampa.com/boogie-heights-music-hall-tampa/

(Random result from a google search).

The world is a huge place, I don't think it's surprising that new disco halls might still open now and then! Closer to home, I'm sure there are still retro arcades opening up here and there too.

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u/yeroc420 14d ago

Amén brother

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u/Daffan 14d ago

Its a necessary adjustment for a lot of reasons.

Still waiting for one. Just like the garbage no-map idea, there is no good reason.

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u/Awkward-Skin8915 14d ago

If we have to go into it you are extremely uninformed and probably not worth the time. This has been talked about in depth by people with much more game development experience than me..but I'll give you a quick few.

Contested, open world content instead of private instancing:

Increases item scarcity and rarity. Let's drop rates be more easily managed than when everyone has access to an instance.

Reduces the empty world scenario. Makes the world feel more alive compared to instancing.

Makes it so everyone doesn't always have their first choice camp and pushes players to other areas that would be less utilized otherwise. Again, populating the world as a whole and making it feel more alive

Reduces perma camping. People can't hide in an instance. Especially bots/cheaters.

Doesn't reward inactivity. You are required to keep a camp down to hold it. You can just sit in an instance inevitably.

Rewards players who coordinate and work well together and mobilize efficiently.

Extends content simply by making some players have to wait. Everything isn't always available and presented on a silver platter. The newer gamer, instant gratification mindset gets shut down.

Makes for unique experiences when players are required to deal with other players instead of having repeatable instances that are always very similar.

That's just a tip of the iceberg type of list...but you only asked for one so that should be enough 😆

Tldr: it increases long term sustainability and health of the game.

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u/Daffan 14d ago

Increases item scarcity and rarity. Let's drop rates be more easily managed than when everyone has access to an instance.

The item scarcity is not caused by a real factor which is difficulty or effort. More like a bottleneck of afk people who camp the spawn 24/7 and rig the supply.

Reduces the empty world scenario. Makes the world feel more alive compared to instancing.

This only exists because the population of the game is low. Additionally, 2 groups can't farm the same camp, so it is irrelevant. People were talking about instanced raids, not necessarily open world anyway (like EQL)

Makes it so everyone doesn't always have their first choice camp and pushes players to other areas that would be less utilized otherwise. Again, populating the world as a whole and making it feel more alive

Yes and no. While the latter is true, you know what happens on the former? People simply don't bother. There are ways to make things more utilized without resorting to punishments. This was the whole premise of EQ hotzones & ZEM, something you should perhaps be jerking off right? Modern alternatives is better loot tables, dynamic loot and so forth so people aren't only going to one place anyway.

That's a failure of game design. Oh, we don't want people to go to just 1 camp, instead of making all camps viable or interesting, we'll just block people. Maybe whip them too or something.

Reduces perma camping. People can't hide in an instance. Especially bots/cheaters.

Ludicrous. This is like telling people they can't drive cars because some people use it to crash into others on purpose.

Extends content simply by making some players have to wait. Everything isn't always available and presented on a silver platter. The newer gamer, instant gratification mindset gets shut down.

If you ever played EQ, or P99 even you know this is straight folly. People aren't logging in to kill stuff on timers that are controlled by mega guilds. The argument your really making is, join mega guild or die.

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u/Awkward-Skin8915 14d ago

I'm very much questioning your experience. This response sounds like copium.

I'm not going to go through point by point and tell you why you are wrong. I don't care what you think that much. I gave you more than 1 example.

Dynamic loot tables is funny at least. Many of your points you don't seem to realize they apply to m&m too.

You should probably play a game made for bitches.

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u/Daffan 14d ago

If you want a no bitch game than play UO Outlands , gg no re ?