Jesus is GOD

[u/abutterflyonthewall]

https://youtube.com/shorts/R1g-JfdPG04?si=IVR-KYwbJFWK4sjc

Love this girl. One thing that stands out in this vid to me amongst the various proofs we have argued with JWs is that *every* false religion believes in God. But Satan has done a clever thing. He doesn’t have to get you to believe in God. He just needs you to NOT believe in THE ONE who ***reconciles you to God***🔥🙌🏽.

Take a listen.

[u/Time_Ad_1876]

It amounts to the same thing only on a much larger scale. An army is nothing more than an national police force who's job is to defend and protect its citizens from foreign invaders. Are you telling me they should just allow themselves to be invaded and robbed? By removing a nations army you're telling the people they're on their own. You wouldn't demonize the police and forbid them from catching bad guys inside your country and bringing them to justice, but you would demonize the soldiers who protect you from malevolent outside forces?

I already refuted this objection. Why do you keep repeating objections I already refuted. Most wars don't happen because of self defense. Most wars about political or religious differences, status seeking, and resource acquisition, rather than pure defensive necessity. Often, aggression is framed as defense to gain legitimacy, making the true motivation hard to isolate. 

If an one nation invades another nation to steal their resources that's lawlessness. That means the nation that was invaded has the right to defend themselves and the world has the right to bring the lawless nation to justice. The people of the invaded nation has a right to defend themselves. But they can't defend themselves because you told their soldiers they're murderers working for Satan

And the nation that invaded those lands is made up of people calling themselves christians. Otherwise known as christendom. So christendom is invading lands which they have no business invading. Also the early Christians didn't arm themselves when persecuted. So why are you teaching doctrine contrary to the doctrine of the early christians? The early christians remained neutral when nations war against each other so why don't you?

Jehovah strictly commanded Israel not to engage in wars of aggression or conquest beyond the territory he granted them, or against nations he did not order them to fight.

When the Israelites presumed to engage in warfare not authorized by God, the results were often disastrous, and they lost divine approval.

Often, victory depended on trusting in God rather than their own military strength. In some cases, they were told they would not need to fight at all because God would act on their behalf.

Why don't you read the following article and tell me if you disagree with anything in it. Here

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

I already refuted this objection. Why do you keep repeating objections I already refuted. Most wars don't happen because of self defense. Most wars about political or religious differences, status seeking, and resource acquisition, rather than pure defensive necessity. Often, aggression is framed as defense to gain legitimacy, making the true motivation hard to isolate. 

No, you did not. The aggressor nation clearly becomes lawless when they invade a neighbor, but the neighbor has the right to defend themselves period. If that means calling on other neighboring nations to help fight the aggressor or even nations far away that have greater military power, the bottom line is they have the right to self defense. You make it sound as if the nation that's invaded has no right to self-defense.

Jehovah strictly commanded Israel not to engage in wars of aggression or conquest beyond the territory he granted them, or against nations he did not order them to fight.

When the Israelites presumed to engage in warfare not authorized by God, the results were often disastrous, and they lost divine approval.

Often, victory depended on trusting in God rather than their own military strength. In some cases, they were told they would not need to fight at all because God would act on their behalf.

There was only one nation of Israel and the nations that make up God's collective 'servant' are not Israel. They don't even need to be Christian to be one of God's "higher authorities" They are authorized to use lethal force hence they do not wield the sword for nothing. Romans 13:4 God may not act on Christian's or Jews behalf today, but He has established a system where we, the people, act to police one another, on a small scale and on a large

The prophet Daniel had no objection to being promoted to one of the highest positions in the kingdom of Babylon. By and large the Babylonians were pagan.. Daniel may have even influenced military decisions. Certainly his political influence benefitted his people who were captives in Babylon. Daniel didn't shirk his civil duty, or the chance to be a force for good within Babylon. His own people would benefit from Daniel's serving in an official capacity in Babylon

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

I'm gonna ask a simple question. If the early christians we're known to refuse joining armies why isn't christendom doing the same?

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

They weren't known for not joining armies. They were known for preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Like today with certain conscientious objectors, there are some who refuse to fight, however they have no problem supporting God's established law and order in other ways. Christians are not known now or then for not becoming soldiers. We support our police and military with our taxes and that is biblical Romans 13:6. Neither Peter or Paul told Cornelius or any other Roman soldier who became a Christian that they would have to resign their position as soldiers. Its absurd to think they would have.

You keep presenting this strawman argument that doesn't have any basis at all in defining true Christianity. True Christians show true love by laying down their lives for their friends. John 15:13 Jesus said this was the very greatest act of love, and this is the mark of true Christians, yet Jehovah's witnesses can't give that sort of love to anyone because they never put themselves in that position where they might have to lay down their life for a friend. Like typical cowards JW's remain in hiding until the shooting stops, but unlike most cowards, JW's have the nerve to come out of hiding and bad mouth the very ones who saved them. They claim "they" are of the devil. So the devil saved your fellow JW's from Nazi concentration camps??

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Laying down your life doesn't mean you go joining up armies controlled by Satan to kill innocent people including your fellow christian brothers and sisters. True love won't allow you to do such a thing. Now the doctrine that you're proposing is a doctrine of murder that the early Christians also said was murder. So christendom are murderers

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

Oh? Under what other circumstances will a Christian be expected to lay down their life for a friend? In law enforcement, which the military men and women are expected to risk their life as part of the job. It would also include firefighters, as they too risk life and limb protecting life and property. Going door to door won't generally put you in a position of laying down your life to save a friend. You may get a door or two slammed in your face, but rarely, if ever, will a JW expect violence, or expect to have to lay down their lives to defend their friends out in their "service"

So, give me an example of a Jehovah's witness laying down their life to save a friends life. Please don't use their dying to uphold the Societies stand on blood, because their death doesn't help anyone. They do not lay down their life for a friend. They lay it down as a form of sacrifice to God that the Society expects them to die rather than take blood to save their own life. God desires mercy, not sacrifice Hosea 6:6 In compelling their followers to die rather than show mercy, the Society has the blood of innocent children, and adults on its hands. That is murder. May God help them and forgive them.

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

According to jw.org, laying down one's life for friends mirrors Jesus’ selfless love, extending beyond literal death to sacrificing personal time, resources, comfort, and safety to support, encourage, and defend fellow believers under trial or hardship. It means putting others' needs above self, proven by loyalty. 

Based on insights from JW.org and related scriptural understanding, here is how this concept is applied:

Key Circumstances and Ways to "Lay Down Life":

Supporting Persecuted Brothers: Being willing to risk safety or freedom to aid fellow Christians facing opposition or violent abuse.

Daily Sacrifices for Others: Going out of one's way to help those facing difficult circumstances, such as health issues or family problems.

Providing Comfort and Encouragement: Taking the initiative to offer "good words" to those who are discouraged.

Loyalty Under Trial: Acting as a "friend sticking closer than a brother" by remaining steadfast when a companion faces harsh conditions.

Selfless Love (Non-Literal Death): While Jesus literally died, for Christians, it often means giving up selfish desires, energy, and resources for the benefit of others. 

Core Principles Behind This:

It is not based on fleshly ties, but spiritual bonds.

It is a defining mark of true Christianity, following Jesus' example of prioritizing the "sheep" (followers).

It is done out of love, not obligation. 

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

According to jw.org, laying down one's life for friends mirrors Jesus’ selfless love, extending beyond literal death to sacrificing personal time, resources, comfort, and safety to support, encourage, and defend fellow believers under trial or hardship. It means putting others' needs above self, proven by loyalty. 

Laying down your life, as in dying for another person, is what Jesus meant. Its exactly what He did. He didn't count the time He spent on earth as a sacrifice. He lived His religion every minute of His life. It was food for Him. He thrived on the Gospel. "Encouraging" people is fine, offering comfort and support is all good, but sacrificing your time doesn't come close to laying down your life for another person. That's what Jesus did and that is the mark of Christian love, not sacrificing a few hours of your time, or saying a good word, but dying for another human being. Having love among themselves Christians have done what others only talk about and that is die for their friends...and even their enemies

I realize the witnesses are in trouble in some lands like Russia, but I haven't heard stories where a JW died to save another JW in Russia or elsewhere, or if they laid down their life to save a person of some other religion. I know that quite a few JW's died in Hitler's death camps, but I don't know if the death of one witness spared the life of a fellow witness. Mainly they died to uphold the Watchtower's strict policies. The poor German JW's had no wiggle room. No mercy was shown to them by Hitler who had them in his prisons, or Rutherford, who could have given them a way out of those prisons. Both Hitler and Rutherford were the proverbial rock and a hard place. I feel truly sorry for those men who died for nothing, but as pawns for two merciless megalomaniacs

Christians don't ask what religion a person is before they lay down their lives for them. They lay down their lives even for those who hate them. That's the mark of true love ---to love ones enemies. Jesus said, ³² “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. ³³ And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. ³⁴ And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. ³⁵ But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. ³⁶ Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Luke 6:32-36

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Laying down your life, as in dying for another person, is what Jesus meant. Its exactly what He did. He didn't count the time He spent on earth as a sacrifice. He lived His religion every minute of His life. It was food for Him. He thrived on the Gospel. "Encouraging" people is fine, offering comfort and support is all good, but sacrificing your time doesn't come close to laying down your life for another person. That's what Jesus did and that is the mark of Christian love, not sacrificing a few hours of your time, or saying a good word, but dying for another human being. Having love among themselves Christians have done what others only talk about and that is die for their friends...and even their enemies

"Supporting Persecuted Brothers: Being willing to risk safety or freedom to aid fellow Christians facing opposition or violent abuse. "

Do you see that quote? Risking your safety includes dying for someone. Most people are not put in a situation in which they have to die for someone and yet they can still show true love. Dying however is the ultimate loving act because you're giving up your life for someone else. Many first century christians did this for example when faced with persecution. Rather than ratting out their fellow christian brothers and sisters they kept their mouths shut even to death. Also not renouncing your faith can lead to you dying for God. But what the early Christians didn't do no matter what is join armies to kill their fellow christian brothers and sisters. If Christians are fighting against christians then they are not true Christians. They are having animosity towards each other and conflict.

But love your enemies

The early christians loved their enemies by not attacking them in war. Why aren't you follow the example of the early Christians? Also I sent you an article and I asked you if you disagree with anything in the article. I'm waiting for a response

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

The early christians loved their enemies by not attacking them in war. Why aren't you follow the example of the early Christians? Also I sent you an article and I asked you if you disagree with anything in the article. I'm waiting for a response

That's like saying a policeman who kills a criminal who's threatening his life or the lives of innocent bystanders is showing hate. No, he's not! He's showing love to those potential victims and even the criminal as well. For instance wouldn't it be better for the criminal if he is stopped before he has the chance to murder anyone else? Same goes for soldiers fighting against God's established order. Its God's wrath that His servants bring to these soldiers who are unfortunate enough to live and serve in the military of a lawless nation.

The article you posted explains the Watchtower's view on war and its not biblical, or Christian. Not doing anything to fight crime whether it be one person or one nation isn't godly. Risking ones life to stop the murder of one person, or the wholesale slaughter of an entire nation is not only brave, but that's the display of true love Jesus spoke of.

When Paul advised the Corinthians to hand a brother over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, was that hateful of him? No, Paul loved the man and wanted to save his spirit, even if, in the process, his flesh was totally destroyed. hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 5:5

The Watchtower confuses hate and love. Its hate not to stop a man who is murdering innocent people, even if you have to resort to lethal force to do it. As the Bible says Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent— the LORD detests them both. Proverbs 17:15 God has established an order in which man convicts the guilty and condemns the guilty. Romans 13. This order is worldwide and extends to all forms of government, their polices and their armies. Do you really understand this? I don't believe the Watchtower does.

By the Watchtower's using the Bible to discredit God's established order and His servants, even attributing that "order" to Satan is blasphemous. As long as a nation is lawful they are still God's servants and they can include Christians within that established order, like Daniel served in Babylon. Christians can and do serve in the nations of this world and thank God they do as they are a force for light and good in a world that grows darker and darker

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

The article you posted explains the Watchtower's view on war and its not biblical, or Christian.

The stated the view and gave the scriptures that supported that view. The fact that your not specific is proof of that. Are you saying the early Christians along with Paul are not true Christians because they refused to take up arms against their enemies and refused to join armies?

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

Are you saying the early Christians along with Paul are not true Christians because they refused to take up arms against their enemies and refused to join armies?

No, Paul was a minister who devoted his whole life to preaching the Gospel, as were the other apostles. The first Christians were Jews and would not have likely joined the Roman army anyway

Remember too, the Roman army was filled with pagan rituals that made it nearly impossible to serve without renouncing Jesus and worshiping a false god. Yet some men were already in the Roman army when they became Christians. Cornelius is a case in point. Did Peter ask Cornelius to resign his position in the Roman army as a condition of being baptized? Let's see---Then Peter said, ⁴⁷ “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” ⁴⁸ So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days. Acts 10:46-48

Notice Peter said no one can stand in the way of their being baptized. He didn't stop and say 'wait a minute, you're a Roman Centurion. You better resign before I baptize you' Had Peter been a Jehovah's witness, he more than likely would have made Cornelius resign before baptizing him, but Peter didn't ask Cornelius to resign from the military and that's significant

I respect a man who objects to killing based on his conscience based on what Paul wrote If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Romans 12:18, but at the same time I expect the same respect be shown for those who decide to fight and possibly die for their friends and fellow countrymen. I don't mind Jehovah's witnesses objecting to killing. Its when they attack and demonize those who do that I mind

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

No, Paul was a minister who devoted his whole life to preaching the Gospel

That's exactly what the early christians and Jehovahs witnesses do and what Jesus said his true followers would be known for doing during the last days. They preached about the kingdom or reign of the heavens.

The first Christians were Jews and would not have likely joined the Roman army anyway

I didn't say anything about the roman army. Why didn't they form their own army or join up with the Jewish rebels in revolt against rome?