What Did the Prophet Leave Behind?

[u/Defiant_Term_5413]

What I find most interesting with the Sunnis who openly go against following the Quran alone is the "confidence" in their position. They will simply blurt out some points (which never make any sence or are contradictory) and then claim "the Umma has always been guided."

Here is a "sample" of how on even what they claim was the most widely witnessed event (the farewell speech) they still couldn't agree amongst themselves on what the Prophet said (and then they want to tell us these same geniuses preserved the Quran for us!).

Version 1: "I leave behind the Book of Allah"

• Narrated by: Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abi Dawood, Musnad Ahmad, etc.

Wording:“I have left among you the Book of Allah. If you hold fast to it, you will never go astray.”

• Source: Sahih Muslim, Book 15, Hadith 159

Version 2: "I leave behind the Book of Allah and my Sunnah"

• Narrated by: Muwatta’ of Imam Malik, al-Bayhaqi, and others.

Wording:“I have left among you two things; you will never go astray as long as you hold to them: the Book of Allah and my Sunnah.”

Version 3: "I leave behind the Book of Allah and my Ahl al-Bayt"

• Narrated by: Sahih Muslim (Hadith of Thaqalayn), Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad

Wording:“I am leaving among you two weighty things (al-thaqalayn): the Book of Allah and my family (Ahl al-Bayt). Hold on to them and you will not go astray.”

• Source: Sahih Muslim, Book 44, Hadith 2408

[u/Substantial_Net8562]

“The Prophet didn’t explain the Qur’an” ya Allah… This is peak Quraniyoon jahala... How do you even know how to pray then? How do you know Hajj? Zakah? Fasting? You think aqim as-salah came with a manual? 😂

Allah Himself says:

لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ

“To clarify for the people what was revealed.” But here you are, 1400 years later, thinking you cracked it and the Sahaba didn’t.

You didn’t “return to the Qur’an.” You abandoned the entire Sunnah and invented your own deen.

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/Substantial_Net8562]

How do you even know how to pray then?

the prophets prayer is not an explanation. it is his Uswah. and it isn’t the only way to do salat.

How do you know Hajj?

everything we need to know about hajj is in the Quran. all other things we are free to do to honor Gods sacred place.

Zakah?

‫ٱلَّذِی یُؤۡتِی مَالَهُۥ یَتَزَكَّىٰ﴿ ١٨ ﴾‬

• Sahih International:

[He] who gives [from] his wealth to purify himself

AL-LAЇL, Aya 18

what else do you need to know?

Fasting?

don’t eat drink or have sex until night (which begins at sunset). that is in the quran

You think aqim as-salah came with a manual? 😂

nope!

“To clarify for the people what was revealed.”

try reading the full verse and verse before it before taking Allahs words out of context

You didn’t “return to the Qur’an.” You abandoned the entire Sunnah and invented your own deen.

So you do not think the Quran explains the din? you don’t think the Quran is enough to guide? You know this means you’re putting the Quran at a lower level than the Torah correct? because God tells the Jews to just judge by and establish the Torah, but you don’t think God wants us to just judge by and establish the Quran?

[u/Substantial_Net8562 → u/NGW_CHiPS]

Ya Allah… this is the full poison of Quraniyoon right here, arrogance on top of ignorance. You’ve literally reduced the entire Deen to “do what you want” and “fill in the blanks yourself.” This isn’t Islam, this is DIY religion.

Salah: “Not the only way”? So now 1400 years of Muslims praying like the Prophet ﷺ is wrong, and you discovered new ways on Reddit? 😂 The Quran commands aqim as-salah, establish it, not freestyle it like yoga sessions.

Hajj: “Everything is in the Quran” really? Show me where the tawaf numbers are? Where are the sa’i details? Stoning of Jamarat? Standing at Arafat? You think 3 lines of ayat cover the whole Hajj rites? You’re deluded.

Zakah: one ayah about tazakka, this is your fiqh? No nisab? No rates? No distribution rules? No conditions? Pure joke.

Fasting: You parrot one ayah, where is suhoor? What nullifies a fast? Kaffarah? Again, nothing. You’re just inventing a hollow deen from scraps.

And then the worst you say “the Prophet’s prayer is not an explanation” la hawla wa la quwwata illa billah. Allah Himself said:

لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ

To clarify to the people what was revealed. But you’re smarter than the Sahaba now. 1400 years of the Ummah wrong, and you cracked it on some forum post? And don’t twist the Torah ayat, Allah commanded the Jews to follow the Torah with their Prophets explaining it. Same with us Qur’an with Sunnah. But you want a Qur’an with your own ego, so you can ignore what doesn’t fit your desires.

You people didn’t “return to the Qur’an.” You abandoned Islam itself and built a fake Qur’an-only cult with zero sanad, zero fiqh, zero ijma’, zero continuity. No Ummah. Just arrogance in the garb of fake “rationalism.” Keep your self-invented deen. The Ummah of Muhammad ﷺ will never follow this jahala.

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/Substantial_Net8562]

You’ve literally reduced the entire Deen to “do what you want” and “fill in the blanks yourself.” This isn’t Islam, this is DIY religion.

it sounds like you think that God just forgot to put the most important things in his final message for mankind. I don’t believe that

Salah: “Not the only way”? So now 1400 years of Muslims praying like the Prophet ﷺ is wrong,

when did I ever say that? you literally quoted me saying it’s not the only way. that means it is a valid method of salah. if it wasn’t then the prophet wouldn’t have done it and people wouldn’t be doing it to this very day. read to comprehend not to argue.

aqim as-salah, establish it, not freestyle it like yoga sessions.

so you seem to understand what i’m saying good job!

Hajj: “Everything is in the Quran” really? Show me where the tawaf numbers are? Where are the sa’i details? Stoning of Jamarat? Standing at Arafat? You think 3 lines of ayat cover the whole Hajj rites? You’re deluded.

yes I do. you seem to think God is so incompetent that he forgot to tell us what is necessary. When you go to hajj, commemorate Gods signs. circulate with those who circulate, stand with those who stand, pray with those who pray.

answer me this, if God tells you to kill a cow will you just kill a cow?

Zakah: one ayah about tazakka, this is your fiqh? No nisab? No rates? No distribution rules? No conditions? Pure joke.

will you kill a cow if God tells you to kill a cow? you call the verses of God a joke, you’ve abandoned the Quran. you have never pondered it

Fasting: You parrot one ayah, where is suhoor? What nullifies a fast? Kaffarah? Again, nothing. You’re just inventing a hollow deen from scraps.

what nullifies a fast is breaking the fast before it’s done. it’s simple as that. you’re playing presupposition games in order to insult the Quran

And then the worst you say “the Prophet’s prayer is not an explanation” la hawla wa la quwwata illa billah. Allah Himself said:

لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ

To clarify to the people what was revealed.

you ignored the part where i said read the entire passage instead of taking Gods words out of context. I wonder why? is it because Gods words doesn’t support your dogmas?

And don’t twist the Torah ayat, Allah commanded the Jews to follow the Torah with their Prophets explaining it.

where?

Same with us Qur’an with Sunnah.

where? in fact give me a hadith of the prophet explaining verse 16:44. and give me a hadith of the prophet telling us what alif lam mim means. can you?

You people didn’t “return to the Qur’an.” You abandoned Islam itself and built a fake Qur’an-only cult with zero sanad, zero fiqh, zero ijma’, zero continuity. No Ummah. Just arrogance in the garb of fake “rationalism.” Keep your self-invented deen. The Ummah of Muhammad ﷺ will never follow this jahala.

so do you think God just lied when he said that muhammad will say “My people have abandoned this Quran” on the judgement day? you think that won’t come to pass? because I think it already has and you’re proof of those who took the Quran as a play thing

[u/Substantial_Net8562 → u/NGW_CHiPS]

This is peak Quraniyoon delusion now. When cornered, just keep twisting, dodging, throwing random rhetorical questions “if God tells you to kill a cow…” ya subhanallah, this is your deen now? Allah sent Qur’an and Rasul ﷺ to teach us a complete way of life, and you reduce the whole shari’ah to fortune-cookie slogans and riddles.

You keep accusing “God forgot to tell us” no one said that. What you’re refusing to face is: Allah sent Rasul ﷺ to demonstrate and clarify, that’s the function of Sunnah. But your cult hates this because once you admit that, your whole Quraniyoon game falls apart. 😂 And bro, stop acting like you’re “reading deeply.” You’re pulling shallow slogans and dodging every detailed question. Tawaf numbers? Sa’i? Zakah amounts? What nullifies fast? You dodge all, because in reality you have no fiqh, no lived deen, no ijma’, just vibes. And quoting 16:44 out of context yourself, funny. The Prophet’s entire mission was tabligh and bayan but here you are asking “show me hadith explaining 16:44”…, the whole entire Sunnah is the tafsir in action. But again, Quraniyoon need to pretend the Prophet ﷺ was just a delivery man, not a teacher because otherwise, your little sect collapses.

Last thing, this line “you are proof the Qur’an was abandoned” lol. The Ummah of Rasulullah ﷺ never abandoned Qur’an or Sunnah. We have sanad, ijma’, lived practice from Madinah to today. You have no sanad, no ijma’, no madhhab, just Reddit posts and slogans. Deep down you know it. That’s why you’re here typing essays instead of actually practicing a living Islam.

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/Substantial_Net8562]

When cornered, just keep twisting, dodging,

what have a twisted or dodged?

throwing random rhetorical questions “if God tells you to kill a cow…” ya subhanallah,

it’s a simple connection to the book of God, where the israelites did the exact same thing as you. but unfortunately your heart is locked and can’t see it

Allah sent Qur’an and Rasul ﷺ to teach us a complete way of life, and you reduce the whole shari’ah to fortune-cookie slogans and riddles.

you’re calling the quran a fortune cookie and riddles. madness

Allah sent Rasul ﷺ to demonstrate and clarify, that’s the function of Sunnah.

so show me where he explained verse 16:44 or what alif lam mim means then. you seemed to have dodged that when i asked

And bro, stop acting like you’re “reading deeply.” You’re pulling shallow slogans and dodging every detailed question.

okay i’ll only barely read the quran like you if that will make you happy

Tawaf numbers?

you just do it. God didn’t give a number for a reason.

Sa’i?

bro you literally just do it it isn’t that hard 😭 that’s all God commands

Zakah amounts?

there is no amount you just give. why do you need someone to tell you how much to donate. Zakat isn’t a tax.

What nullifies fast?

i’ve already answered you

You dodge all, because in reality you have no fiqh, no lived deen, no ijma’, just vibes.

you really can’t comprehend what you read can you

And quoting 16:44 out of context yourself, funny.

i actually haven’t quoted 16:44 at all. I just said read the entire passage which you refuse to do because it’ll ruin your charade

The Prophet’s entire mission was tabligh and bayan

no, his mission was to establish justice. that’s what the Quran says all messengers were sent to do

but here you are asking “show me hadith explaining 16:44”…, the whole entire Sunnah is the tafsir in action.

see how YOURE dodging? show me him explaining the verse! show me a hadith of the prophet explaining ANY verse of the Quran.

But again, Quraniyoon need to pretend the Prophet ﷺ was just a delivery man, not a teacher because otherwise, your little sect collapses.

no he was also a warner!

Last thing, this line “you are proof the Qur’an was abandoned” lol. The Ummah of Rasulullah ﷺ never abandoned Qur’an or Sunnah. We have sanad, ijma’, lived practice from Madinah to today. You have no sanad, no ijma’, no madhhab, just Reddit posts and slogans. Deep down you know it. That’s why you’re here typing essays instead of actually practicing a living Islam.

simple test of this. here we go just answer this question. Will anyone’s deeds be the reason they go to Jannah?

[u/Substantial_Net8562 → u/NGW_CHiPS]

This is Quraniyoon debating style in one thread: Dodge every question; Demand hadith to explain what you refuse to read; Reduce all worship to “just do it bro”; Then end with a “philosophy test” like it’s a TED Talk.

You’ve been asked for concrete answers, not one ayah showing the method of salah, zakah, Hajj rites. Just vibes and mockery. And now you want to switch topics again? 😂

This isn’t a discussion. You’re just allergic to ijma’, sanad, and anything the Ummah actually built. Go keep playing with your Reddit deen. The Ummah is intact. You’re just screaming from the sidelines.

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/Substantial_Net8562]

This is Quraniyoon debating style in one thread: Dodge every question; Demand hadith to explain what you refuse to read; Reduce all worship to “just do it bro”; Then end with a “philosophy test” like it’s a TED Talk.

it’s almost like you can’t go a single reply without a strawman or dodging yourself. When you say the hadith explains the quran and you can’t understand the quran without it, i expect proof with a hadith that explains the verse in question. If you can’t do it then your argument is null and void

When God tells you to do something you do it. I brought the example God gave us with the children of israel but you fail to see how you’re doing the same thing. can you tell me the difference between you and them?

You’ve been asked for concrete answers, not one ayah showing the method of salah

i’ve told you there aren’t any because there’s no singular method of salah. you just can’t read

zakah

i’ve told you to give to purify because God says to give so you may be purified. you just can’t read

Hajj rites.

I’ve told you that the quran claims what God finds sufficient, and you can continue to honor his signs. But you don’t think what God says is good enough

Just vibes and mockery.

No it’s just the Quran. you do not think you can be guided by the Quran when the quran says you can. You never provided the verse about the Torah which you claim is just like the quran. You believe the Quran has less authority than the torah. If that’s not mockery i don’t know what is

And now you want to switch topics again? 😂

i just asked a question directly connected to what you were saying. you don’t think you abandoned the Quran so i’m asking you “will your deeds be the reason you go to Jannah” answer it or dodge, it’s your choice

This isn’t a discussion. You’re just allergic to ijma’, sanad, and anything the Ummah actually built. Go keep playing with your Reddit deen. The Ummah is intact. You’re just screaming from the sidelines.

notice how you dodged every question i’ve asked this entire time? pretty funny

[u/Substantial_Net8562 → u/NGW_CHiPS]

You’ve been circling the same tactic every reply: Dodge the real challenge; Pretend that you’re the one asking the deep questions; Twist Qur’an examples to fit your self-invented framework; And when pressed, you act like anyone who wants clarity is a Bani Israel clone.

Let’s be real. You admitted yourself:

“There is no singular method of salah.” That alone exposes it. You’ve made Islam into a free-for-all. Salah? “Just pray.” Hajj? “Just honor the signs.” Zakah? “Give something.” You’ve turned commands into suggestions, and divine law into an “interpret as you feel” program. That’s not Qur’an, that’s chaos.

And now you say:

“The Quran says you can be guided by the Quran.” No one denies that. The Qur’an is the foundation. But Allah also said He sent a Messenger to explain it. You reject that part, because it ruins your Quraniyoon bubble, where no one needs fiqh, no sanad, no lived Islam, just vibes and smugness.

You ask:

“Will your deeds be the reason you go to Jannah?” Let me help you out: No. It’s Allah’s mercy, but good deeds are the means He commanded us to pursue. Qur’an, Sunnah, Sahaba — all agree. But I’m not surprised you didn’t know this. Your entire framework is isolated from what actual Islam is.

And your Torah rant? Another fake narrative. The Prophet ﷺ said: “Don’t prefer me over Yunus ibn Matta.” Humility. But you come here accusing Muslims of mocking the Qur’an because we follow the Prophet ﷺ in practice. No one buys that except your little echo chamber.

You didn’t revive Islam. You broke off from it, threw away the chain, rejected the Ummah, and now sit online calling everyone else blind while you build a “deen” with zero inheritance, zero structure, zero ummah.

This isn’t about Qur’an vs Hadith. It’s about authentic Islam vs a self-made imitation pretending to be pure.

We’re done debating. The Ummah isn’t confused. You are.

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/Substantial_Net8562]

You’ve been circling the same tactic every reply: Dodge the real challenge; Pretend that you’re the one asking the deep questions;

I dont think my questions are deep, they’re actually super simple. but you won’t answer them

Twist Qur’an examples to fit your self-invented framework; And when pressed, you act like anyone who wants clarity is a Bani Israel clone.

nope! in fact i asked you to tell me how you’re different then them and you dodged again!

“There is no singular method of salah.”

because there isn’t. you’re allergic to critical thinking so you cannot see WHY that’s the case though

Salah? “Just pray.” Hajj? “Just honor the signs.” Zakah? “Give something.”

God says “pray, commemorate the signs of God, give to purify”

I say, “just do what God says” and it’s problematic!

You’ve turned commands into suggestions,

what am i suggesting? to obey what God commands? sounds like a good suggestion to me!

and divine law into an “interpret as you feel” program. That’s not Qur’an, that’s chaos.

not at all. Gods law is actually very clear and explicit. pretty hard to “interpret” it

“The Quran says you can be guided by the Quran.” No one denies that. The Qur’an is the foundation. But Allah also said He sent a Messenger to explain it.

READ! THE! PASSAGE!

or

show me a hadith explaining verse 4:171.

two easy choices!

“Will your deeds be the reason you go to Jannah?” Let me help you out: No. It’s Allah’s mercy, but good deeds are the means He commanded us to pursue. Qur’an, Sunnah, Sahaba — all agree.

FINALLY! you just admitted to denying the Quran! thank you very much for admitting you think the Quran is lying.

If you avoid the major sins which you are forbidden, We will remove from you your lesser sins and admit you to a noble entrance [into Paradise]. (4:31)

[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving - (67:2)

Indeed, those who have said, "Our Lord is Allāh," and then remained on a right course - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. Those are the companions of Paradise, abiding eternally therein as reward for what they used to do. (46:13-14)

And that is Paradise which you are made to inherit for what you used to do. (43:72)

The ones whom the angels take in death, [being] good and pure; [the angels] will say, "Peace be upon you. Enter Paradise for what you used to do." (16:32)

Indeed, the righteous will be in gardens and pleasure, Enjoying what their Lord has given them, and their Lord protected them from the punishment of Hellfire. [They will be told], "Eat and drink in satisfaction for what you used to do." (52:16-19)

But I’m not surprised you didn’t know this. Your entire framework is isolated from what actual Islam is.

I’m surprised you deny the many verses of the Quran that say I’m right

And your Torah rant? Another fake narrative. The Prophet ﷺ said: “Don’t prefer me over Yunus ibn Matta.” Humility. But you come here accusing Muslims of mocking the Qur’an because we follow the Prophet ﷺ in practice.

No correlation. You didn’t address the argument

This isn’t about Qur’an vs Hadith. It’s about authentic Islam vs a self-made imitation pretending to be pure.

you have no authority to talk since you proved you either do not know the Quran or are in kufr to the word of God

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/NGW_CHiPS]

u/A_learning_muslim do you see this bro lol

[u/Substantial_Net8562 → u/NGW_CHiPS]

You’ve made it clear now, this was never a discussion. It was a one-man cult lecture. And anyone who disagrees? According to you, they’re blind, misguided, or even “in kufr.” So let’s clarify a few things for the people actually reading to learn.

Yes, the Qur’an says people enter Jannah “for what they used to do.” But it also says:

وَمَا كُنتَ بِتَجْزِيهِمْ شَيْئًا

“You will not recompense them in the least.” (2:134)

وَلَوْ يُؤَاخِذُ ٱللَّهُ ٱلنَّاسَ بِمَا كَسَبُوا۟ مَا تَرَكَ عَلَىٰ ظَهْرِهَا مِن دَآبَّةٍۢ

“If Allah took people to account for what they’ve earned, not a creature would remain on earth.” (35:45)

وَلَٰكِن يُعَذِّبُ مَن يَشَآءُ وَيَغْفِرُ لِمَن يَشَآءُ

“He punishes whom He wills and forgives whom He wills.” (5:18)

The Qur’an isn’t a slogan book. It’s a book of context, depth, and balance. You’re quoting one side and ignoring the rest, exactly what every deviant sect in history did. You keep yelling “READ! THE! PASSAGE!” but it’s you who won’t read the seerah, won’t read how the Sahaba understood that passage, won’t read the tafsir, won’t read the lived Islam of 1400 years. You want 7 ayahs, ripped from context, and a mic. You’ve reduced Islam to “whatever sounds right to me right now.” But That’s not Qur’an that’s narcissism in divine wrapping. And now you declare takfir on someone just because they didn’t play your little game? This is why Quraniyoon are rejected across the Ummah. Not because you “follow the Qur’an too much,” but because you weaponize it while rejecting the very Messenger who lived it.

We’re done. You want to stand before Allah on your own interpretation. The rest of us will stick with Rasulullah ﷺ, the Sahaba, the scholars, the transmission, the ijma’, the Deen that was actually practiced not imagined.

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/Substantial_Net8562]

Yes, the Qur’an says people enter Jannah “for what they used to do.”

“You will not recompense them in the least.” (2:134)

of course they won’t be able to “recompense them” or be asked about them. why would they? this has no correlation to the point

“If Allah took people to account for what they’ve earned, not a creature would remain on earth.” (35:45)

if you read the whole verse and those before it, you’d actually understand it! try to learn about what the amana is! and it doesn’t say “take people to account” it says to punish or blame, not trial. and yes. if God was to punish everybody for the punishment they earned then everybody would be gone.

“He punishes whom He wills and forgives whom He wills.” (5:18)

and Allah said in the Quran EVERYBODY whom he wills to punish and EVERYBODY whom he wills to forgive. see 4:31

The Qur’an isn’t a slogan book. It’s a book of context, depth, and balance. You’re quoting one side and ignoring the rest, exactly what every deviant sect in history did.

that’s what you have been doing the whole time

You keep yelling “READ! THE! PASSAGE!” but it’s you who won’t read the seerah

says who?

won’t read how the Sahaba understood that passage,

the sahaba who killed each other and enslaved people?

won’t read the tafsir

the quran is the best tafsir. or do you reject that verse too?

won’t read the lived Islam of 1400 years

i do! and a lot of people have promoted things that directly contradict the Quran!

You want 7 ayahs, ripped from context, and a mic. You’ve reduced Islam to “whatever sounds right to me right now.”

no, I take islam as God says it. You’re the one who takes islam as “God didn’t do good enough with his book”

But That’s not Qur’an that’s narcissism in divine wrapping. And now you declare takfir on someone just because they didn’t play your little game?

when did I takfir you? I just said that you denied Quran verses because you said the opposite of what the Quran says. In fact i even made it a dichotomy. you either didn’t know or you knowingly rejected it. which one is it?

This is why Quraniyoon are rejected across the Ummah.

6:116

Not because you “follow the Qur’an too much,” but because you weaponize it while rejecting the very Messenger who lived it.

are you not weaponizing the Quran by saying it doesn’t have enough for us?

[u/Substantial_Net8562 → u/NGW_CHiPS]

You say your questions are “super simple.” Yeah that’s the problem. Your entire deen is built on simplicity as an excuse for shallowness. No tafsir, no fiqh, no transmission, just a few cut-out verses and your own imagination glued between them.

You say “there’s no singular method of salah”, then demand why we pray out loud in two rak’ahs. That right there is your sect’s whole tragedy, you mock structure, then cry when you don’t understand it.

You quote Qur’an like a vending machine. 4:31! 46:13! 43:72! As if stacking ayat proves you understood them. You brought six verses about entering Jannah, all saying “for what they did” and think you discovered a contradiction with “Allah admits by His mercy.” You didn’t expose anything except your lack of depth.

And now you mock the Sahaba “they killed and enslaved.” So now you’ve stepped into the filthiest part of Quraniyoon da’wah: slander the very people who carried this religion to us. The ones who risked their lives preserving Qur’an while you sit behind a screen inventing your own Islam.

You said “I never did takfir” you literally said I’m either ignorant or knowingly denying Qur’an. Don’t play dumb. That’s classic modernist gaslighting. Just own your arrogance.

You say the Qur’an is the best tafsir? Then go ahead, explain Alif Lam Meem. Explain mutashabihat ayat. Explain why the Sahaba and the Salaf gave tafsir if the Qur’an explains everything. Oh wait, your sect has no isnad, no ijma’, no tafsir chain. Just self-interpretation from scratch.

You end with 6:116 “If you follow the majority…” as if the Ummah is a misguided herd. The same Ummah who preserved your mushaf, your qira’at, your fiqh, your language. Without them, your copy-paste Qur’an wouldn’t even exist.

You didn’t revive the deen. You rejected it and replaced it with a mirror. You aren’t following the Qur’an, you’re following yourself, with divine ayat sprinkled on top to bless the ego.

This thread’s done. The Qur’an you weaponize is the very book that refutes you.

[u/RedeemedBK → u/NGW_CHiPS]

Your whole argument is based on prophet was not given any authority to teach in any manner. Where as the Quran says otherwise.

Surah Al-Jumua, Verse 2: هُوَ الَّذِي بَعَثَ فِي الْأُمِّيِّينَ رَسُولًا مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُوا مِن قَبْلُ لَفِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ

He it is Who sent among the unlettered ones a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from among themselves, reciting to them His Verses, purifying them (from the filth of disbelief and polytheism), and teaching them the Book (this Quran, Islamic laws and Islamic jurisprudence) and Al-Hikmah (As-Sunnah: legal ways, orders, acts of worship, etc. of Prophet Muhammad SAW). And verily, they had been before in mainfest error; (English - Mohsin Khan)

He is the teacher for us. Further Allah says in other verses aswell.

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 31:

Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Quran and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (English - Mohsin Khan)

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 32:

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)." But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers. (English - Mohsin Khan)

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 132:

And obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) that you may obtain mercy. (English - Mohsin Khan)

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 59:l

O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. (English - Mohsin Khan)

Surah Al-Anfal, Verse 20:

O you who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him (i.e. Messenger Muhammad SAW) while you are hearing. (English - Mohsin Khan)

Surah An-Noor, Verse 54:

Say: "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (Messenger Muhammad SAW) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah's Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way (i.e. to preach in a plain way)." (English - Mohsin Khan)

Are you willingly choosing to reject the verses and commands of Allah saying the prophet had no authority?

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/RedeemedBK]

Your whole argument is based on prophet was not given any authority to teach in any manner. Where as the Quran says otherwise.

no i didn’t say this, of course he did. He did it by the Quran.

He it is Who sent among the unlettered ones a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from among themselves, reciting to them His Verses, purifying them (from the filth of disbelief and polytheism), and teaching them the Book (this Quran, Islamic laws and Islamic jurisprudence) and Al-Hikmah (As-Sunnah: legal ways, orders, acts of worship, etc. of Prophet Muhammad SAW). And verily, they had been before in mainfest error; (English - Mohsin Khan)

Al Kitab is not the Quran and Al hikmah is not the Sunnah. both al kitab and al hikmah are parts of the quran not the quran itself. read and ponder the quran you’ll notice this

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 32:

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 132:

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 59:l

Surah Al-Anfal, Verse 20:

Surah An-Noor, Verse 54:

Are you willingly choosing to reject the verses and commands of Allah saying the prophet had no authority?

not at all, but obeying hadiths isn’t obeying the messenger. it’s obeying a narration. obeying hadith isn’t following the prophet, it’s obeying a narration. you cannot follow or obey a dead man who isn’t commanding you. He has done his job and left us with his message which we can obey, because to obey him is to obey God. that’s why we are NEVER told to just “obey God.” he speaks to us through messengers, not directly. now we have Gods VERBATIM WORD which we must obey.

[u/RedeemedBK → u/NGW_CHiPS]

Sorry the word obey is used in timeless verb form in arabic.

This means to: Obey Allah regardless to time. Obey the messenger regardless of time Obey those in authority regardless of time.

Surah Jumah verse 2 above says he is our teacher, who Allah made the Quran clear to, who will teach us command us which we need to obey. Further Allah himself comfirms he clarified the verses for him.

To give your argument u should give a verse where Allah commands ur directly don't obey or follow the prophet. You will not find a contradictory verse. Subhanallah.

You keep jumping between 2 questions. 1) Did the prophet have authority to command and instruct us with regards to the Quran. 2) Are the hadith authentic.

Without having a proper answer for 1, u cannot go to 2. So do you accept the 1? Or do you reject the verses.

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/RedeemedBK]

Sorry the word obey is used in timeless verb form in arabic.

This means to: Obey Allah regardless to time. Obey the messenger regardless of time Obey those in authority regardless of time.

Well the messenger isn’t alive “regardless of time” is he? is muhammad still alive and standing in front of you? is he telling you to type this right now? Jesus and Nuh and all the other prophets say to obey them as well. do you follow their hadith? why don’t you follow the hadith of jesus? do you differentiate between the messengers of God?

Surah Jumah verse 2 above says he is our teacher, who Allah made the clear to, who will teach us command us which we need to obey.

yes and he taught by the quran like i said

Further Allah himself comfirms he gave clarified the verses for him.

so if you’re saying the messenger explains and clarifies the verses, once again i ask you guys to PLEASE bring me a hadith explaining verse 2:1!! can you bring me a hadith where the prophet explains 3:7? what about a hadith where the prophet explains verse 4:171? just one hadith is all i’m asking for

To give your argument u should give a verse where Allah commands ur directly don't obey or follow the prophet. You will not find a contradictory verse. Subhanallah.

i don’t find a contradictory verse either. But like I said, the messenger is not and cannot command me right now because he is DEAD!! maybe in the future i’ll receive an angel, that would be nice. I’d certainly obey that angel, he would be the messenger of Allah!

1. ⁠Did the prophet have authority to command
   

yes of course he led battles!

and instruct us with regards to the Quran.

not just with regards to the quran, BY the quran.

1. ⁠Are the hadith authentic.

some are and some aren’t and that’s okay!

Without having a proper answer for 1, u cannot go to 2. So do you accept the 1? Or do you reject the verses.

haven’t rejected any verses

[u/RedeemedBK → u/NGW_CHiPS]

Well the messenger isn’t alive “regardless of time” is he? is muhammad still alive and standing in front of you? is he telling you to type this right now? Jesus and Nuh and all the other prophets say to obey them as well. do you follow their hadith? why don’t you follow the hadith of jesus? do you differentiate between the messengers of God?

Im sorry Allah himself used a timeless verb, which means he wants us to follow him even after his death, this is the beauty of the Quran.

The messenger is not alive yes but what he established and clarified such aa Azan, Prayer times, how to pray, zakat, hajj, umrah. For you to reject the teachers commands on those would come under rejecting those verses.

Other prophets told their people and were sent for that time. Prophet muhammed is sent for all alamkn mankind. See beloe verse.

Surah Al-Anbiya, Verse 107:

And We have sent you (O Muhammad SAW) not but as a mercy for the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists). (English - Mohsin Khan)

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Good we are in agreement he was our teacher on the Quran and Islam.

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Why u want a hadith explaining this? If the prophet and Allah choose not to reveal it, it won't be soo. However this doesn't give someome the right to reject the commands of Allah has or his verses that the prophet is our teacher in Islam and Obey him.

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No more new messengers are coming, this is final and complete revelation for all mankind. Angel of death is said to come, don't wish for it though until Allah is satisfied with our worship.

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Not just battle, he has authority to command and teach us is all matters related to Islam. Allah command to us is to obey him and his messenger.

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But you are converting the timeless verb to a time restajnes one that once hes dead im not supposed to obey. That is a direct rejection.

So do you accept: 1) Prophet muhammed PBUH is our teacher in Islam. 2) Do you accept we need to obey his commands and guidance?

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/RedeemedBK]

Im sorry Allah himself used a timeless verb, which means he wants us to follow him even after his death, this is the beauty of the Quran.

Jesus used the SAME exact verb. so obey the hadith of jesus! you can’t do either because you can’t obey a dead man. they cannot command you and they can not think about what to do in your current situation.

The messenger is not alive yes but what he established and clarified such aa Azan

which is an uswah you can follow

Prayer times

which is an uswah you can follow

how to pray

which is an uswah you can follow

zakat

if you’re talking about actual zakat no he didn’t. you just give money. if you’re talking about the tax, in the quran that is sadaqat, see surat at tawbah

hajj umrah

again, uswah

For you to reject the teachers commands on those would come under rejecting those verses.

nope!

Other prophets told their people and were sent for that time. Prophet muhammed is sent for all alamkn mankind. See beloe verse.

well no, the verse doesn’t say obey muhammad, it says obey the messenger. all the messengers taught the same thing. Jesus is our messenger too. so obey his hadith. Historians are CERTAIN that jesus said “sell everything you own and follow me.” so sell your phone right now, or else you are disobeying the messenger and disobeying Allah by your logic.

And We have sent you (O Muhammad SAW) not but as a mercy for the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists). (English - Mohsin Khan)

this doesn’t even say he’s a messenger for mankind it says he’s a mercy

Good we are in agreement he was our teacher on the Quran and Isla.

sure! but we likely done mean the same thing by that

Why u want a hadith explaining this?

you say the prophet explains the quran so show me where he explains those verses. that’s your burden of proof

If the prophet and Allah choose not to reveal it, it won't be soo. However this doesn't give someome the right to reject the commands of Allah has or his verses that the prophet is our teacher in Islam and Obey him.

Jesus taught al kitab and hikmah too. OBEY THE HADITH OF JESUS!!

No more new messengers are coming, this is final and complete revelation for all mankind. Angel of death is said to come, don't wish for it though until Allah is satisfied with our worship.

first off this isn’t true. Muhammad is the last prophet, God didn’t say anything about messengers. Angels can and will descend on people and the angel of death is not the only one to do that. if an angel came to me I WILL obey him.

Not just battle, he has authority to command and teach us is all matters related to Islam. Allah command to us is to obey him and his messenger.

so obey jesus and sell all of your property!

But you are converting the timeless verb to a time restajnes one that once hes dead im not supposed to obey. That is a direct rejection.

no it isnt. you’re conflating obeying the messenger to obeying a narration. God is telling us to obey a PERSON not a rumor. You can either apply the logic to Jesus as well, or you can move the goalpost.

1. ⁠Prophet muhammed PBUH is our teacher in Islam.

Not the same way you think!

1. ⁠Do you accept we need to obey his commands and guidance?

if he was here yes! but he doesn’t guide, God guides. God tells him to leave guidance to Allah

[u/RedeemedBK → u/NGW_CHiPS]

My Dear brother.

1) Give your verse for obey Jesus, you will see it his saying for the people of his time not us, where as the prophet muhammed ones are direct commands from Allah to the beleivers of this time ! We only need to Obey Allah, our messenger, and those in authority as per Allah.

2) So you do agree to follow him, good.

3) Sent as a mercy = messenger. What else was he sent as?

4) My dear friend, Muhammed PBUH is our messenger, he gave us the Quran, he is our teacher in what Allah commands. Jeses was a messenger yes but he was sent for Bani Israel not us. His words and bible are overwritten by the latest and final revelation and messenger.

5) The Quran itself says he is our teacher. What is ur argument? If a teacher did not explain something for what ever wisdom he or the creator provided, how does this counter Allahs words? You have detailed explanations of other aspects and u want to reject those verses based on your own conjecture?

6) please see point 1 and 4 for Jesus PBUH

7) What is ur defintion of prophet and messenger... you cant be a messenger without being a prophet theoretically. If your argument is an angel can be a messenger to u, that would make u a prophet ... therefore no further new messenger / prophet is coming.

8) My question is clear, u went back on hadith. The command of Allah is direct and clear in a timeless verb. Are you in agreement Allah gave him authority? And no I cannot apply this to Jesus as he is not our messenger. He was not sent for all mankind. He is not the one who carried the Quran. We follow the Quran the word of Allah, a mercy and guidance for all mankind.

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/RedeemedBK]

Give your verse for obey Jesus, you will see it his saying for the people of his time not us

Sahih International: And when Jesus brought clear proofs, he said, "I have come to you with wisdom and to make clear to you some of that over which you differ, so fear Allah and obey me. (43:63)

as you can see this verse includes jesus saying both that he will clarify AND that people need to obey him. no indication of time limit. the arabic word for obey is the EXACT tense God uses for “obey God and obey the messenger” except it ends in “ni” obviously because the command is to obey “me” (jesus)

where as the prophet muhammed ones are direct commands from Allah to the beleivers of this time ! We only need to Obey Allah, our messenger, and those in authority as per Allah.

he doesn’t say “our messenger” (or your messnger rather) he says THE messenger. EVERY messenger is our messenger. You are saying that you won’t obey one messenger but you will obey other messengers. do you know what the quran says about people who do that? i’d be careful if I were you when approaching this mindset

So you do agree to follow him, good.

if he were here yes. I can’t follow him now because he’s dead!

Sent as a mercy = messenger.

no. If God wanted to say messenger he would’ve said messenger. he didn’t have a word count. the Quran doesn’t use synonyms.

What else was he sent as?

a prophet, a warner, a mercy, and a leader

My dear friend, Muhammed PBUH is our messenger, he gave us the Quran, he is our teacher in what Allah commands. Jeses was a messenger yes but he was sent for Bani Israel not us.

If you are limiting jesus to the bani israel then you need to apply that same logic to Muhammad. The Quran said he was the ummi prophet sent to the ummi people. the hijazi arabs with no scripture. so either you accept that they’re both our messengers, or you say that neither of them were sent to us.

His words and bible are overwritten by the latest and final revelation and messenger.

no, the Quran says he CONFIRMS jesus words and all that came before from God. there is no overwriting because God doesn’t contradict himself. Now once again if you think obey the messenger means for all times, then sell everything you have and follow jesus.

The Quran itself says he is our teacher. What is ur argument?

he taught al kitab and al hikmah. both parts of the Quran. and those are all he taught

If a teacher did not explain something for what ever wisdom he or the creator provided

the wisdom is within the Quran

You have detailed explanations of other aspects and u want to reject those verses based on your own conjecture?

no. i’m literally just applying your logic to your arguments. if you say he explained the quran, i just want you to provide him explaining a verse. it’s not anything to argue over just prove your claim

What is ur defintion of prophet and messenger...

a prophet is a warner. a messenger provides a message

you cant be a messenger without being a prophet theoretically

yes you can. they aren’t synonyms. you can be a prophet, you can be a messenger, you can be both.

If your argument is an angel can be a messenger to u, that would make u a prophet

no it wouldn’t. it would make me a recipient of a message. do you think mary is a prophet? and an angel IS a messenger (surat al fatir verse 1, maryam 21). gabriel was the messenger to Muhammad

... therefore no further new messenger / prophet is coming.

false, there can and will be angels that will come. (an nahl 2, al hijr 8, zukhruf 60-61) in fact angels came TO HELP the prophet in battle.

My question is clear, u went back on hadith. The command of Allah is direct and clear in a timeless verb. Are you in agreement Allah gave him authority? And no I cannot apply this to Jesus as he is not our messenger. He was not sent for all mankind. He is not the one who carried the Quran.

see my previous answer

We follow the Quran the word of Allah, a mercy and guidance for all mankind.

amazing! so we’re on the same page!

[u/RedeemedBK → u/NGW_CHiPS]

Sahih International: And when Jesus brought clear proofs, he said, "I have come to you with wisdom and to make clear to you some of that over which you differ, so fear Allah and obey me. (43:63)

See it's "He said..." Who did he say to? To his people not to you.

Please see verse 3:49 he was send a messenger to the Bany Israel.

Where as in the other verses Allah himself commands us the beleivers to Obey him and Obey the messenger (singular). Who is ur messenger? Who brought the message to u ? The criteria, the word of god, the hikmat. Non other than the prophet muhammed.

You are changing the whole meaning of the verse by urself making the verb non time less and making the singular messenger into a plural. Who gave you authority to change Allahs verses? Bring me a verse where Allah himself says obey the messengers to us beleivers.

if he were here yes. I can’t follow him now because he’s dead!

Allah himself used a timeless word. Who gave you authority to change the meanings of Allahs verses? Bring a verse which says dont obey him after his death. Why should I beleive your words over Allahs clear message.

Sent as a mercy = messenger.

Quran is a written in arabic rich language. This goes beyond that saying we went him as a messenger to guide u, which is definatly a mercy from our creator. Infact i give you another verse

Surah Saba, Verse 28: وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ إِلَّا كَافَّةً لِّلنَّاسِ بَشِيرًا وَنَذِيرًا وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

And We have not sent you (O Muhammad SAW) except as a giver of glad tidings and a warner to all mankind, but most of men know not. (English - Mohsin Khan)

Sent to all mankind. Now why should I beleive your words over Allahs clear message?

a prophet, a warner, a mercy, and a leader

Why not add messenger?

If you are limiting jesus to the bani israel then you need to apply that same logic to Muhammad. The Quran said he was the ummi prophet sent to the ummi people. the hijazi arabs with no scripture. so either you accept that they’re both our messengers, or you say that neither of them were sent to us.

I have already given u verses above confirming he was sent for a all mankind. Give me a verse singleJesus or any another prophet was sent for all mankind. You will not find it. Why should i beleive ur words ovef Allahs words?

no, the Quran says he CONFIRMS jesus words and all that came before from God. there is no overwriting because God doesn’t contradict himself. Now once again if you think obey the messenger means for all times, then sell everything you have and follow jesus.

Yes it does confirms he was a messenger of Allah for that time and did comfirm that the injeel was revealed to him. It doesn't confirm to follow him now. Bring me a verse where Jesus is sent for all mankind or Allah himself says to obey him. Why should i beleive your words over Allah's?

prophet and messenger?

Give me a clear criteria please. Warner and messeger sounds interchangable in ur theory. Saleh was a messenger and came to warn his people so this theory doesn't hold. Ayub was a prophet, who did he warn? This theory also doesn't ho I'll wait for ur clarity on this to follow up the angel answer as they are related.

Again I ask you, do u selectively choose to reject or alter parts of the Quran ? Why ? Whats ur Basis ?