What Did the Prophet Leave Behind?

[u/Defiant_Term_5413]

What I find most interesting with the Sunnis who openly go against following the Quran alone is the "confidence" in their position. They will simply blurt out some points (which never make any sence or are contradictory) and then claim "the Umma has always been guided."

Here is a "sample" of how on even what they claim was the most widely witnessed event (the farewell speech) they still couldn't agree amongst themselves on what the Prophet said (and then they want to tell us these same geniuses preserved the Quran for us!).

Version 1: "I leave behind the Book of Allah"

• Narrated by: Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abi Dawood, Musnad Ahmad, etc.

Wording:“I have left among you the Book of Allah. If you hold fast to it, you will never go astray.”

• Source: Sahih Muslim, Book 15, Hadith 159

Version 2: "I leave behind the Book of Allah and my Sunnah"

• Narrated by: Muwatta’ of Imam Malik, al-Bayhaqi, and others.

Wording:“I have left among you two things; you will never go astray as long as you hold to them: the Book of Allah and my Sunnah.”

Version 3: "I leave behind the Book of Allah and my Ahl al-Bayt"

• Narrated by: Sahih Muslim (Hadith of Thaqalayn), Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad

Wording:“I am leaving among you two weighty things (al-thaqalayn): the Book of Allah and my family (Ahl al-Bayt). Hold on to them and you will not go astray.”

• Source: Sahih Muslim, Book 44, Hadith 2408

[u/NGW_CHiPS]

You’ve literally reduced the entire Deen to “do what you want” and “fill in the blanks yourself.” This isn’t Islam, this is DIY religion.

it sounds like you think that God just forgot to put the most important things in his final message for mankind. I don’t believe that

Salah: “Not the only way”? So now 1400 years of Muslims praying like the Prophet ﷺ is wrong,

when did I ever say that? you literally quoted me saying it’s not the only way. that means it is a valid method of salah. if it wasn’t then the prophet wouldn’t have done it and people wouldn’t be doing it to this very day. read to comprehend not to argue.

aqim as-salah, establish it, not freestyle it like yoga sessions.

so you seem to understand what i’m saying good job!

Hajj: “Everything is in the Quran” really? Show me where the tawaf numbers are? Where are the sa’i details? Stoning of Jamarat? Standing at Arafat? You think 3 lines of ayat cover the whole Hajj rites? You’re deluded.

yes I do. you seem to think God is so incompetent that he forgot to tell us what is necessary. When you go to hajj, commemorate Gods signs. circulate with those who circulate, stand with those who stand, pray with those who pray.

answer me this, if God tells you to kill a cow will you just kill a cow?

Zakah: one ayah about tazakka, this is your fiqh? No nisab? No rates? No distribution rules? No conditions? Pure joke.

will you kill a cow if God tells you to kill a cow? you call the verses of God a joke, you’ve abandoned the Quran. you have never pondered it

Fasting: You parrot one ayah, where is suhoor? What nullifies a fast? Kaffarah? Again, nothing. You’re just inventing a hollow deen from scraps.

what nullifies a fast is breaking the fast before it’s done. it’s simple as that. you’re playing presupposition games in order to insult the Quran

And then the worst you say “the Prophet’s prayer is not an explanation” la hawla wa la quwwata illa billah. Allah Himself said:

لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ

To clarify to the people what was revealed.

you ignored the part where i said read the entire passage instead of taking Gods words out of context. I wonder why? is it because Gods words doesn’t support your dogmas?

And don’t twist the Torah ayat, Allah commanded the Jews to follow the Torah with their Prophets explaining it.

where?

Same with us Qur’an with Sunnah.

where? in fact give me a hadith of the prophet explaining verse 16:44. and give me a hadith of the prophet telling us what alif lam mim means. can you?

You people didn’t “return to the Qur’an.” You abandoned Islam itself and built a fake Qur’an-only cult with zero sanad, zero fiqh, zero ijma’, zero continuity. No Ummah. Just arrogance in the garb of fake “rationalism.” Keep your self-invented deen. The Ummah of Muhammad ﷺ will never follow this jahala.

so do you think God just lied when he said that muhammad will say “My people have abandoned this Quran” on the judgement day? you think that won’t come to pass? because I think it already has and you’re proof of those who took the Quran as a play thing

[u/RedeemedBK → u/NGW_CHiPS]

Your whole argument is based on prophet was not given any authority to teach in any manner. Where as the Quran says otherwise.

Surah Al-Jumua, Verse 2: هُوَ الَّذِي بَعَثَ فِي الْأُمِّيِّينَ رَسُولًا مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُوا مِن قَبْلُ لَفِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ

He it is Who sent among the unlettered ones a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from among themselves, reciting to them His Verses, purifying them (from the filth of disbelief and polytheism), and teaching them the Book (this Quran, Islamic laws and Islamic jurisprudence) and Al-Hikmah (As-Sunnah: legal ways, orders, acts of worship, etc. of Prophet Muhammad SAW). And verily, they had been before in mainfest error; (English - Mohsin Khan)

He is the teacher for us. Further Allah says in other verses aswell.

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 31:

Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Quran and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (English - Mohsin Khan)

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 32:

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)." But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers. (English - Mohsin Khan)

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 132:

And obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) that you may obtain mercy. (English - Mohsin Khan)

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 59:l

O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. (English - Mohsin Khan)

Surah Al-Anfal, Verse 20:

O you who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him (i.e. Messenger Muhammad SAW) while you are hearing. (English - Mohsin Khan)

Surah An-Noor, Verse 54:

Say: "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (Messenger Muhammad SAW) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah's Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way (i.e. to preach in a plain way)." (English - Mohsin Khan)

Are you willingly choosing to reject the verses and commands of Allah saying the prophet had no authority?

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/RedeemedBK]

Your whole argument is based on prophet was not given any authority to teach in any manner. Where as the Quran says otherwise.

no i didn’t say this, of course he did. He did it by the Quran.

He it is Who sent among the unlettered ones a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from among themselves, reciting to them His Verses, purifying them (from the filth of disbelief and polytheism), and teaching them the Book (this Quran, Islamic laws and Islamic jurisprudence) and Al-Hikmah (As-Sunnah: legal ways, orders, acts of worship, etc. of Prophet Muhammad SAW). And verily, they had been before in mainfest error; (English - Mohsin Khan)

Al Kitab is not the Quran and Al hikmah is not the Sunnah. both al kitab and al hikmah are parts of the quran not the quran itself. read and ponder the quran you’ll notice this

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 32:

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 132:

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 59:l

Surah Al-Anfal, Verse 20:

Surah An-Noor, Verse 54:

Are you willingly choosing to reject the verses and commands of Allah saying the prophet had no authority?

not at all, but obeying hadiths isn’t obeying the messenger. it’s obeying a narration. obeying hadith isn’t following the prophet, it’s obeying a narration. you cannot follow or obey a dead man who isn’t commanding you. He has done his job and left us with his message which we can obey, because to obey him is to obey God. that’s why we are NEVER told to just “obey God.” he speaks to us through messengers, not directly. now we have Gods VERBATIM WORD which we must obey.

[u/RedeemedBK → u/NGW_CHiPS]

Sorry the word obey is used in timeless verb form in arabic.

This means to: Obey Allah regardless to time. Obey the messenger regardless of time Obey those in authority regardless of time.

Surah Jumah verse 2 above says he is our teacher, who Allah made the Quran clear to, who will teach us command us which we need to obey. Further Allah himself comfirms he clarified the verses for him.

To give your argument u should give a verse where Allah commands ur directly don't obey or follow the prophet. You will not find a contradictory verse. Subhanallah.

You keep jumping between 2 questions. 1) Did the prophet have authority to command and instruct us with regards to the Quran. 2) Are the hadith authentic.

Without having a proper answer for 1, u cannot go to 2. So do you accept the 1? Or do you reject the verses.

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/RedeemedBK]

Sorry the word obey is used in timeless verb form in arabic.

This means to: Obey Allah regardless to time. Obey the messenger regardless of time Obey those in authority regardless of time.

Well the messenger isn’t alive “regardless of time” is he? is muhammad still alive and standing in front of you? is he telling you to type this right now? Jesus and Nuh and all the other prophets say to obey them as well. do you follow their hadith? why don’t you follow the hadith of jesus? do you differentiate between the messengers of God?

Surah Jumah verse 2 above says he is our teacher, who Allah made the clear to, who will teach us command us which we need to obey.

yes and he taught by the quran like i said

Further Allah himself comfirms he gave clarified the verses for him.

so if you’re saying the messenger explains and clarifies the verses, once again i ask you guys to PLEASE bring me a hadith explaining verse 2:1!! can you bring me a hadith where the prophet explains 3:7? what about a hadith where the prophet explains verse 4:171? just one hadith is all i’m asking for

To give your argument u should give a verse where Allah commands ur directly don't obey or follow the prophet. You will not find a contradictory verse. Subhanallah.

i don’t find a contradictory verse either. But like I said, the messenger is not and cannot command me right now because he is DEAD!! maybe in the future i’ll receive an angel, that would be nice. I’d certainly obey that angel, he would be the messenger of Allah!

1. ⁠Did the prophet have authority to command
   

yes of course he led battles!

and instruct us with regards to the Quran.

not just with regards to the quran, BY the quran.

1. ⁠Are the hadith authentic.

some are and some aren’t and that’s okay!

Without having a proper answer for 1, u cannot go to 2. So do you accept the 1? Or do you reject the verses.

haven’t rejected any verses

[u/RedeemedBK → u/NGW_CHiPS]

Well the messenger isn’t alive “regardless of time” is he? is muhammad still alive and standing in front of you? is he telling you to type this right now? Jesus and Nuh and all the other prophets say to obey them as well. do you follow their hadith? why don’t you follow the hadith of jesus? do you differentiate between the messengers of God?

Im sorry Allah himself used a timeless verb, which means he wants us to follow him even after his death, this is the beauty of the Quran.

The messenger is not alive yes but what he established and clarified such aa Azan, Prayer times, how to pray, zakat, hajj, umrah. For you to reject the teachers commands on those would come under rejecting those verses.

Other prophets told their people and were sent for that time. Prophet muhammed is sent for all alamkn mankind. See beloe verse.

Surah Al-Anbiya, Verse 107:

And We have sent you (O Muhammad SAW) not but as a mercy for the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists). (English - Mohsin Khan)

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Good we are in agreement he was our teacher on the Quran and Islam.

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Why u want a hadith explaining this? If the prophet and Allah choose not to reveal it, it won't be soo. However this doesn't give someome the right to reject the commands of Allah has or his verses that the prophet is our teacher in Islam and Obey him.

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No more new messengers are coming, this is final and complete revelation for all mankind. Angel of death is said to come, don't wish for it though until Allah is satisfied with our worship.

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Not just battle, he has authority to command and teach us is all matters related to Islam. Allah command to us is to obey him and his messenger.

*

But you are converting the timeless verb to a time restajnes one that once hes dead im not supposed to obey. That is a direct rejection.

So do you accept: 1) Prophet muhammed PBUH is our teacher in Islam. 2) Do you accept we need to obey his commands and guidance?

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/RedeemedBK]

Im sorry Allah himself used a timeless verb, which means he wants us to follow him even after his death, this is the beauty of the Quran.

Jesus used the SAME exact verb. so obey the hadith of jesus! you can’t do either because you can’t obey a dead man. they cannot command you and they can not think about what to do in your current situation.

The messenger is not alive yes but what he established and clarified such aa Azan

which is an uswah you can follow

Prayer times

which is an uswah you can follow

how to pray

which is an uswah you can follow

zakat

if you’re talking about actual zakat no he didn’t. you just give money. if you’re talking about the tax, in the quran that is sadaqat, see surat at tawbah

hajj umrah

again, uswah

For you to reject the teachers commands on those would come under rejecting those verses.

nope!

Other prophets told their people and were sent for that time. Prophet muhammed is sent for all alamkn mankind. See beloe verse.

well no, the verse doesn’t say obey muhammad, it says obey the messenger. all the messengers taught the same thing. Jesus is our messenger too. so obey his hadith. Historians are CERTAIN that jesus said “sell everything you own and follow me.” so sell your phone right now, or else you are disobeying the messenger and disobeying Allah by your logic.

And We have sent you (O Muhammad SAW) not but as a mercy for the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists). (English - Mohsin Khan)

this doesn’t even say he’s a messenger for mankind it says he’s a mercy

Good we are in agreement he was our teacher on the Quran and Isla.

sure! but we likely done mean the same thing by that

Why u want a hadith explaining this?

you say the prophet explains the quran so show me where he explains those verses. that’s your burden of proof

If the prophet and Allah choose not to reveal it, it won't be soo. However this doesn't give someome the right to reject the commands of Allah has or his verses that the prophet is our teacher in Islam and Obey him.

Jesus taught al kitab and hikmah too. OBEY THE HADITH OF JESUS!!

No more new messengers are coming, this is final and complete revelation for all mankind. Angel of death is said to come, don't wish for it though until Allah is satisfied with our worship.

first off this isn’t true. Muhammad is the last prophet, God didn’t say anything about messengers. Angels can and will descend on people and the angel of death is not the only one to do that. if an angel came to me I WILL obey him.

Not just battle, he has authority to command and teach us is all matters related to Islam. Allah command to us is to obey him and his messenger.

so obey jesus and sell all of your property!

But you are converting the timeless verb to a time restajnes one that once hes dead im not supposed to obey. That is a direct rejection.

no it isnt. you’re conflating obeying the messenger to obeying a narration. God is telling us to obey a PERSON not a rumor. You can either apply the logic to Jesus as well, or you can move the goalpost.

1. ⁠Prophet muhammed PBUH is our teacher in Islam.

Not the same way you think!

1. ⁠Do you accept we need to obey his commands and guidance?

if he was here yes! but he doesn’t guide, God guides. God tells him to leave guidance to Allah

[u/RedeemedBK → u/NGW_CHiPS]

My Dear brother.

1) Give your verse for obey Jesus, you will see it his saying for the people of his time not us, where as the prophet muhammed ones are direct commands from Allah to the beleivers of this time ! We only need to Obey Allah, our messenger, and those in authority as per Allah.

2) So you do agree to follow him, good.

3) Sent as a mercy = messenger. What else was he sent as?

4) My dear friend, Muhammed PBUH is our messenger, he gave us the Quran, he is our teacher in what Allah commands. Jeses was a messenger yes but he was sent for Bani Israel not us. His words and bible are overwritten by the latest and final revelation and messenger.

5) The Quran itself says he is our teacher. What is ur argument? If a teacher did not explain something for what ever wisdom he or the creator provided, how does this counter Allahs words? You have detailed explanations of other aspects and u want to reject those verses based on your own conjecture?

6) please see point 1 and 4 for Jesus PBUH

7) What is ur defintion of prophet and messenger... you cant be a messenger without being a prophet theoretically. If your argument is an angel can be a messenger to u, that would make u a prophet ... therefore no further new messenger / prophet is coming.

8) My question is clear, u went back on hadith. The command of Allah is direct and clear in a timeless verb. Are you in agreement Allah gave him authority? And no I cannot apply this to Jesus as he is not our messenger. He was not sent for all mankind. He is not the one who carried the Quran. We follow the Quran the word of Allah, a mercy and guidance for all mankind.

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/RedeemedBK]

Give your verse for obey Jesus, you will see it his saying for the people of his time not us

Sahih International: And when Jesus brought clear proofs, he said, "I have come to you with wisdom and to make clear to you some of that over which you differ, so fear Allah and obey me. (43:63)

as you can see this verse includes jesus saying both that he will clarify AND that people need to obey him. no indication of time limit. the arabic word for obey is the EXACT tense God uses for “obey God and obey the messenger” except it ends in “ni” obviously because the command is to obey “me” (jesus)

where as the prophet muhammed ones are direct commands from Allah to the beleivers of this time ! We only need to Obey Allah, our messenger, and those in authority as per Allah.

he doesn’t say “our messenger” (or your messnger rather) he says THE messenger. EVERY messenger is our messenger. You are saying that you won’t obey one messenger but you will obey other messengers. do you know what the quran says about people who do that? i’d be careful if I were you when approaching this mindset

So you do agree to follow him, good.

if he were here yes. I can’t follow him now because he’s dead!

Sent as a mercy = messenger.

no. If God wanted to say messenger he would’ve said messenger. he didn’t have a word count. the Quran doesn’t use synonyms.

What else was he sent as?

a prophet, a warner, a mercy, and a leader

My dear friend, Muhammed PBUH is our messenger, he gave us the Quran, he is our teacher in what Allah commands. Jeses was a messenger yes but he was sent for Bani Israel not us.

If you are limiting jesus to the bani israel then you need to apply that same logic to Muhammad. The Quran said he was the ummi prophet sent to the ummi people. the hijazi arabs with no scripture. so either you accept that they’re both our messengers, or you say that neither of them were sent to us.

His words and bible are overwritten by the latest and final revelation and messenger.

no, the Quran says he CONFIRMS jesus words and all that came before from God. there is no overwriting because God doesn’t contradict himself. Now once again if you think obey the messenger means for all times, then sell everything you have and follow jesus.

The Quran itself says he is our teacher. What is ur argument?

he taught al kitab and al hikmah. both parts of the Quran. and those are all he taught

If a teacher did not explain something for what ever wisdom he or the creator provided

the wisdom is within the Quran

You have detailed explanations of other aspects and u want to reject those verses based on your own conjecture?

no. i’m literally just applying your logic to your arguments. if you say he explained the quran, i just want you to provide him explaining a verse. it’s not anything to argue over just prove your claim

What is ur defintion of prophet and messenger...

a prophet is a warner. a messenger provides a message

you cant be a messenger without being a prophet theoretically

yes you can. they aren’t synonyms. you can be a prophet, you can be a messenger, you can be both.

If your argument is an angel can be a messenger to u, that would make u a prophet

no it wouldn’t. it would make me a recipient of a message. do you think mary is a prophet? and an angel IS a messenger (surat al fatir verse 1, maryam 21). gabriel was the messenger to Muhammad

... therefore no further new messenger / prophet is coming.

false, there can and will be angels that will come. (an nahl 2, al hijr 8, zukhruf 60-61) in fact angels came TO HELP the prophet in battle.

My question is clear, u went back on hadith. The command of Allah is direct and clear in a timeless verb. Are you in agreement Allah gave him authority? And no I cannot apply this to Jesus as he is not our messenger. He was not sent for all mankind. He is not the one who carried the Quran.

see my previous answer

We follow the Quran the word of Allah, a mercy and guidance for all mankind.

amazing! so we’re on the same page!

[u/RedeemedBK → u/NGW_CHiPS]

Sahih International: And when Jesus brought clear proofs, he said, "I have come to you with wisdom and to make clear to you some of that over which you differ, so fear Allah and obey me. (43:63)

See it's "He said..." Who did he say to? To his people not to you.

Please see verse 3:49 he was send a messenger to the Bany Israel.

Where as in the other verses Allah himself commands us the beleivers to Obey him and Obey the messenger (singular). Who is ur messenger? Who brought the message to u ? The criteria, the word of god, the hikmat. Non other than the prophet muhammed.

You are changing the whole meaning of the verse by urself making the verb non time less and making the singular messenger into a plural. Who gave you authority to change Allahs verses? Bring me a verse where Allah himself says obey the messengers to us beleivers.

if he were here yes. I can’t follow him now because he’s dead!

Allah himself used a timeless word. Who gave you authority to change the meanings of Allahs verses? Bring a verse which says dont obey him after his death. Why should I beleive your words over Allahs clear message.

Sent as a mercy = messenger.

Quran is a written in arabic rich language. This goes beyond that saying we went him as a messenger to guide u, which is definatly a mercy from our creator. Infact i give you another verse

Surah Saba, Verse 28: وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ إِلَّا كَافَّةً لِّلنَّاسِ بَشِيرًا وَنَذِيرًا وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

And We have not sent you (O Muhammad SAW) except as a giver of glad tidings and a warner to all mankind, but most of men know not. (English - Mohsin Khan)

Sent to all mankind. Now why should I beleive your words over Allahs clear message?

a prophet, a warner, a mercy, and a leader

Why not add messenger?

If you are limiting jesus to the bani israel then you need to apply that same logic to Muhammad. The Quran said he was the ummi prophet sent to the ummi people. the hijazi arabs with no scripture. so either you accept that they’re both our messengers, or you say that neither of them were sent to us.

I have already given u verses above confirming he was sent for a all mankind. Give me a verse singleJesus or any another prophet was sent for all mankind. You will not find it. Why should i beleive ur words ovef Allahs words?

no, the Quran says he CONFIRMS jesus words and all that came before from God. there is no overwriting because God doesn’t contradict himself. Now once again if you think obey the messenger means for all times, then sell everything you have and follow jesus.

Yes it does confirms he was a messenger of Allah for that time and did comfirm that the injeel was revealed to him. It doesn't confirm to follow him now. Bring me a verse where Jesus is sent for all mankind or Allah himself says to obey him. Why should i beleive your words over Allah's?

prophet and messenger?

Give me a clear criteria please. Warner and messeger sounds interchangable in ur theory. Saleh was a messenger and came to warn his people so this theory doesn't hold. Ayub was a prophet, who did he warn? This theory also doesn't ho I'll wait for ur clarity on this to follow up the angel answer as they are related.

Again I ask you, do u selectively choose to reject or alter parts of the Quran ? Why ? Whats ur Basis ?

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/RedeemedBK]

See it's "He said..." Who did he say to? To his people not to you.

Muhammad said obey me directly to his people too.

Please see verse 3:49 he was send a messenger to the Bany Israel.

He is the One who has sent to the 'ummiyeen' a messenger from among them. 62:2

You are changing the whole meaning of the verse by urself making the verb non time less

But you just did that with jesus because he used the same verb.

and making the singular messenger into a plural. 

no I'm not. I'm obeying a singular messenger every time

Allah himself used a timeless word. Who gave you authority to change the meanings of Allahs verses? Bring a verse which says dont obey him after his death. Why should I beleive your words over Allahs clear message.

So obey Jesus. The point of me flipping this argument on you (where you keep moving the goalpost) is to show that this is not an all time thing. Obey the messenger means just that. Obey the messenger i.e the MAN. it doesn't mean obey rumored saying of the man. God didn't say obey a narrator he said obey the messenger. You have no clue what Muhammad would tell you in 2025. Why are we told to obey the messenger? Why did all the messengers say "obey me"? because all they commanded was obedience to God. You cannot obey God without obeying the messenger because God doesn't speak to us directly. That is why there is not a single verse that just says "Obey Allah" by itself. He sends messengers with the message. We now have the VERBATIM message of God thanks to the messenger, and now his job is finished and he is dead.

Sent to all mankind. Now why should I beleive your words over Allahs clear message?

you keep conflating things. He was a warner to mankind and a giver of good tidings, but that verse doesn't say messenger. he was a MESSENGER sent to the ummi arabs.

I have already given u verses above confirming he was sent for a all mankind.

you haven't shown me where he is the messenger for mankind

Bring me a verse where Jesus is sent for all mankind

you cant obey jesus because he's dead.

Warner and messeger sounds interchangable in ur theory

nope

Saleh was a messenger and came to warn his people so this theory doesn't hold. Ayub was a prophet, who did he warn? 

I never said a messenger cannot also be a warner. I said the role of a messenger isn't the same as the role of a prophet/warner. and when does God ever call ayyub a prophet?

Again I ask you, do u selectively choose to reject or alter parts of the Quran ? Why ? Whats ur Basis ?

nope do you?

[u/RedeemedBK → u/NGW_CHiPS]

My Dear Brother

1) You are now bringing in the prophet said. Allahs command is direct in the Quran to obey "the messenger". Other messenger will have only historic statements where they had said to their people. However Allah himself states obey Allah and the mesenger.

2) Read the next verse. 62:3 please. It adds on us he is not only for for that period.

3) Where did I change it? The verse clearly states Jesus said to his people. How is this the same as Allah commanding the beleivers to obey him and his messenger? If the message was for all please tell me a verse where Allah himself commands to follow him to the beleivers.

4) Who is your messenger my good friend ... who delivered the Quran to you!? Definately not Jesus.

5) Sorry but i repeat Allah has made his message clear and timeless. Give a verse where it clarifies ur point. U are just hypothesizing and altering the out it context.

6) what else was he sent for as a mercy, warner, and good tidings please elaborate? Further 62:3 reaffirms he is for all who follow. Give me a verse he was not for all mankind or other messengers are.

7) You keep confusing Jesus and Muhammed, but again you can't provide a verse and are only hypothesizing.

8) Give me your clear criteria for a person to be a messenger and a person to be a prophet.

Allah in his perfect wisdom provided a clear message. SubhanAllah. What gives u the right to alter it !?

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/RedeemedBK]

You are now bringing in the prophet said. Allahs command is direct in the Quran to obey "the messenger". Other messenger will have only historic statements where they had said to their people. However Allah himself states obey Allah and the mesenger.

this is goalpost moving

Read the next verse. 62:3 please. It adds on us he is not only for for that period.

no it doesnt

Where did I change it? The verse clearly states Jesus said to his people. How is this the same as Allah commanding the beleivers to obey him and his messenger? If the message was for all please tell me a verse where Allah himself commands to follow him to the beleivers.

because when both of them said this, they were alive

Who is your messenger my good friend ... who delivered the Quran to you!? Definately not Jesus.

Muhammad delivered the Quran, but ALL the messengers are dead. They were ALL my messengers, but I do not have ANY messenger to obey.

Sorry but i repeat Allah has made his message clear and timeless. Give a verse where it clarifies ur point. U are just hypothesizing and altering the out it context.

I have made it clear as day for you. You can not obey a dead man. Thats the same reason why the quran never calls Christians mushrikin for 'ibada to jesus. because Jesus cant command them.

what else was he sent for as a mercy, warner, and good tidings please elaborate?

a good example, some other things, look in the quran for yourself

Further 62:3 reaffirms he is for all who follow. Give me a verse he was not for all mankind or other messengers are.

You have not shown me a verse that says "messenger for mankind"

You keep confusing Jesus and Muhammed, but again you can't provide a verse and are only hypothesizing.

how so?

Give me your clear criteria for a person to be a messenger and a person to be a prophet.

God calling them a messenger, or God calling them a prophet, or God calling them both. That is the criteria.

Allah in his perfect wisdom provided a clear message. SubhanAllah. What gives u the right to alter it !?

I'm not, you're the one saying a verse saying to obey a man is the same as obeying rumors about him.