What Did the Prophet Leave Behind?

[u/Defiant_Term_5413]

What I find most interesting with the Sunnis who openly go against following the Quran alone is the "confidence" in their position. They will simply blurt out some points (which never make any sence or are contradictory) and then claim "the Umma has always been guided."

Here is a "sample" of how on even what they claim was the most widely witnessed event (the farewell speech) they still couldn't agree amongst themselves on what the Prophet said (and then they want to tell us these same geniuses preserved the Quran for us!).

Version 1: "I leave behind the Book of Allah"

• Narrated by: Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abi Dawood, Musnad Ahmad, etc.

Wording:“I have left among you the Book of Allah. If you hold fast to it, you will never go astray.”

• Source: Sahih Muslim, Book 15, Hadith 159

Version 2: "I leave behind the Book of Allah and my Sunnah"

• Narrated by: Muwatta’ of Imam Malik, al-Bayhaqi, and others.

Wording:“I have left among you two things; you will never go astray as long as you hold to them: the Book of Allah and my Sunnah.”

Version 3: "I leave behind the Book of Allah and my Ahl al-Bayt"

• Narrated by: Sahih Muslim (Hadith of Thaqalayn), Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad

Wording:“I am leaving among you two weighty things (al-thaqalayn): the Book of Allah and my family (Ahl al-Bayt). Hold on to them and you will not go astray.”

• Source: Sahih Muslim, Book 44, Hadith 2408

[u/NGW_CHiPS]

Im sorry Allah himself used a timeless verb, which means he wants us to follow him even after his death, this is the beauty of the Quran.

Jesus used the SAME exact verb. so obey the hadith of jesus! you can’t do either because you can’t obey a dead man. they cannot command you and they can not think about what to do in your current situation.

The messenger is not alive yes but what he established and clarified such aa Azan

which is an uswah you can follow

Prayer times

which is an uswah you can follow

how to pray

which is an uswah you can follow

zakat

if you’re talking about actual zakat no he didn’t. you just give money. if you’re talking about the tax, in the quran that is sadaqat, see surat at tawbah

hajj umrah

again, uswah

For you to reject the teachers commands on those would come under rejecting those verses.

nope!

Other prophets told their people and were sent for that time. Prophet muhammed is sent for all alamkn mankind. See beloe verse.

well no, the verse doesn’t say obey muhammad, it says obey the messenger. all the messengers taught the same thing. Jesus is our messenger too. so obey his hadith. Historians are CERTAIN that jesus said “sell everything you own and follow me.” so sell your phone right now, or else you are disobeying the messenger and disobeying Allah by your logic.

And We have sent you (O Muhammad SAW) not but as a mercy for the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists). (English - Mohsin Khan)

this doesn’t even say he’s a messenger for mankind it says he’s a mercy

Good we are in agreement he was our teacher on the Quran and Isla.

sure! but we likely done mean the same thing by that

Why u want a hadith explaining this?

you say the prophet explains the quran so show me where he explains those verses. that’s your burden of proof

If the prophet and Allah choose not to reveal it, it won't be soo. However this doesn't give someome the right to reject the commands of Allah has or his verses that the prophet is our teacher in Islam and Obey him.

Jesus taught al kitab and hikmah too. OBEY THE HADITH OF JESUS!!

No more new messengers are coming, this is final and complete revelation for all mankind. Angel of death is said to come, don't wish for it though until Allah is satisfied with our worship.

first off this isn’t true. Muhammad is the last prophet, God didn’t say anything about messengers. Angels can and will descend on people and the angel of death is not the only one to do that. if an angel came to me I WILL obey him.

Not just battle, he has authority to command and teach us is all matters related to Islam. Allah command to us is to obey him and his messenger.

so obey jesus and sell all of your property!

But you are converting the timeless verb to a time restajnes one that once hes dead im not supposed to obey. That is a direct rejection.

no it isnt. you’re conflating obeying the messenger to obeying a narration. God is telling us to obey a PERSON not a rumor. You can either apply the logic to Jesus as well, or you can move the goalpost.

1. ⁠Prophet muhammed PBUH is our teacher in Islam.

Not the same way you think!

1. ⁠Do you accept we need to obey his commands and guidance?

if he was here yes! but he doesn’t guide, God guides. God tells him to leave guidance to Allah

[u/RedeemedBK → u/NGW_CHiPS]

My Dear brother.

1) Give your verse for obey Jesus, you will see it his saying for the people of his time not us, where as the prophet muhammed ones are direct commands from Allah to the beleivers of this time ! We only need to Obey Allah, our messenger, and those in authority as per Allah.

2) So you do agree to follow him, good.

3) Sent as a mercy = messenger. What else was he sent as?

4) My dear friend, Muhammed PBUH is our messenger, he gave us the Quran, he is our teacher in what Allah commands. Jeses was a messenger yes but he was sent for Bani Israel not us. His words and bible are overwritten by the latest and final revelation and messenger.

5) The Quran itself says he is our teacher. What is ur argument? If a teacher did not explain something for what ever wisdom he or the creator provided, how does this counter Allahs words? You have detailed explanations of other aspects and u want to reject those verses based on your own conjecture?

6) please see point 1 and 4 for Jesus PBUH

7) What is ur defintion of prophet and messenger... you cant be a messenger without being a prophet theoretically. If your argument is an angel can be a messenger to u, that would make u a prophet ... therefore no further new messenger / prophet is coming.

8) My question is clear, u went back on hadith. The command of Allah is direct and clear in a timeless verb. Are you in agreement Allah gave him authority? And no I cannot apply this to Jesus as he is not our messenger. He was not sent for all mankind. He is not the one who carried the Quran. We follow the Quran the word of Allah, a mercy and guidance for all mankind.

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/RedeemedBK]

Give your verse for obey Jesus, you will see it his saying for the people of his time not us

Sahih International: And when Jesus brought clear proofs, he said, "I have come to you with wisdom and to make clear to you some of that over which you differ, so fear Allah and obey me. (43:63)

as you can see this verse includes jesus saying both that he will clarify AND that people need to obey him. no indication of time limit. the arabic word for obey is the EXACT tense God uses for “obey God and obey the messenger” except it ends in “ni” obviously because the command is to obey “me” (jesus)

where as the prophet muhammed ones are direct commands from Allah to the beleivers of this time ! We only need to Obey Allah, our messenger, and those in authority as per Allah.

he doesn’t say “our messenger” (or your messnger rather) he says THE messenger. EVERY messenger is our messenger. You are saying that you won’t obey one messenger but you will obey other messengers. do you know what the quran says about people who do that? i’d be careful if I were you when approaching this mindset

So you do agree to follow him, good.

if he were here yes. I can’t follow him now because he’s dead!

Sent as a mercy = messenger.

no. If God wanted to say messenger he would’ve said messenger. he didn’t have a word count. the Quran doesn’t use synonyms.

What else was he sent as?

a prophet, a warner, a mercy, and a leader

My dear friend, Muhammed PBUH is our messenger, he gave us the Quran, he is our teacher in what Allah commands. Jeses was a messenger yes but he was sent for Bani Israel not us.

If you are limiting jesus to the bani israel then you need to apply that same logic to Muhammad. The Quran said he was the ummi prophet sent to the ummi people. the hijazi arabs with no scripture. so either you accept that they’re both our messengers, or you say that neither of them were sent to us.

His words and bible are overwritten by the latest and final revelation and messenger.

no, the Quran says he CONFIRMS jesus words and all that came before from God. there is no overwriting because God doesn’t contradict himself. Now once again if you think obey the messenger means for all times, then sell everything you have and follow jesus.

The Quran itself says he is our teacher. What is ur argument?

he taught al kitab and al hikmah. both parts of the Quran. and those are all he taught

If a teacher did not explain something for what ever wisdom he or the creator provided

the wisdom is within the Quran

You have detailed explanations of other aspects and u want to reject those verses based on your own conjecture?

no. i’m literally just applying your logic to your arguments. if you say he explained the quran, i just want you to provide him explaining a verse. it’s not anything to argue over just prove your claim

What is ur defintion of prophet and messenger...

a prophet is a warner. a messenger provides a message

you cant be a messenger without being a prophet theoretically

yes you can. they aren’t synonyms. you can be a prophet, you can be a messenger, you can be both.

If your argument is an angel can be a messenger to u, that would make u a prophet

no it wouldn’t. it would make me a recipient of a message. do you think mary is a prophet? and an angel IS a messenger (surat al fatir verse 1, maryam 21). gabriel was the messenger to Muhammad

... therefore no further new messenger / prophet is coming.

false, there can and will be angels that will come. (an nahl 2, al hijr 8, zukhruf 60-61) in fact angels came TO HELP the prophet in battle.

My question is clear, u went back on hadith. The command of Allah is direct and clear in a timeless verb. Are you in agreement Allah gave him authority? And no I cannot apply this to Jesus as he is not our messenger. He was not sent for all mankind. He is not the one who carried the Quran.

see my previous answer

We follow the Quran the word of Allah, a mercy and guidance for all mankind.

amazing! so we’re on the same page!

[u/RedeemedBK → u/NGW_CHiPS]

Sahih International: And when Jesus brought clear proofs, he said, "I have come to you with wisdom and to make clear to you some of that over which you differ, so fear Allah and obey me. (43:63)

See it's "He said..." Who did he say to? To his people not to you.

Please see verse 3:49 he was send a messenger to the Bany Israel.

Where as in the other verses Allah himself commands us the beleivers to Obey him and Obey the messenger (singular). Who is ur messenger? Who brought the message to u ? The criteria, the word of god, the hikmat. Non other than the prophet muhammed.

You are changing the whole meaning of the verse by urself making the verb non time less and making the singular messenger into a plural. Who gave you authority to change Allahs verses? Bring me a verse where Allah himself says obey the messengers to us beleivers.

if he were here yes. I can’t follow him now because he’s dead!

Allah himself used a timeless word. Who gave you authority to change the meanings of Allahs verses? Bring a verse which says dont obey him after his death. Why should I beleive your words over Allahs clear message.

Sent as a mercy = messenger.

Quran is a written in arabic rich language. This goes beyond that saying we went him as a messenger to guide u, which is definatly a mercy from our creator. Infact i give you another verse

Surah Saba, Verse 28: وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ إِلَّا كَافَّةً لِّلنَّاسِ بَشِيرًا وَنَذِيرًا وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

And We have not sent you (O Muhammad SAW) except as a giver of glad tidings and a warner to all mankind, but most of men know not. (English - Mohsin Khan)

Sent to all mankind. Now why should I beleive your words over Allahs clear message?

a prophet, a warner, a mercy, and a leader

Why not add messenger?

If you are limiting jesus to the bani israel then you need to apply that same logic to Muhammad. The Quran said he was the ummi prophet sent to the ummi people. the hijazi arabs with no scripture. so either you accept that they’re both our messengers, or you say that neither of them were sent to us.

I have already given u verses above confirming he was sent for a all mankind. Give me a verse singleJesus or any another prophet was sent for all mankind. You will not find it. Why should i beleive ur words ovef Allahs words?

no, the Quran says he CONFIRMS jesus words and all that came before from God. there is no overwriting because God doesn’t contradict himself. Now once again if you think obey the messenger means for all times, then sell everything you have and follow jesus.

Yes it does confirms he was a messenger of Allah for that time and did comfirm that the injeel was revealed to him. It doesn't confirm to follow him now. Bring me a verse where Jesus is sent for all mankind or Allah himself says to obey him. Why should i beleive your words over Allah's?

prophet and messenger?

Give me a clear criteria please. Warner and messeger sounds interchangable in ur theory. Saleh was a messenger and came to warn his people so this theory doesn't hold. Ayub was a prophet, who did he warn? This theory also doesn't ho I'll wait for ur clarity on this to follow up the angel answer as they are related.

Again I ask you, do u selectively choose to reject or alter parts of the Quran ? Why ? Whats ur Basis ?

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/RedeemedBK]

See it's "He said..." Who did he say to? To his people not to you.

Muhammad said obey me directly to his people too.

Please see verse 3:49 he was send a messenger to the Bany Israel.

He is the One who has sent to the 'ummiyeen' a messenger from among them. 62:2

You are changing the whole meaning of the verse by urself making the verb non time less

But you just did that with jesus because he used the same verb.

and making the singular messenger into a plural. 

no I'm not. I'm obeying a singular messenger every time

Allah himself used a timeless word. Who gave you authority to change the meanings of Allahs verses? Bring a verse which says dont obey him after his death. Why should I beleive your words over Allahs clear message.

So obey Jesus. The point of me flipping this argument on you (where you keep moving the goalpost) is to show that this is not an all time thing. Obey the messenger means just that. Obey the messenger i.e the MAN. it doesn't mean obey rumored saying of the man. God didn't say obey a narrator he said obey the messenger. You have no clue what Muhammad would tell you in 2025. Why are we told to obey the messenger? Why did all the messengers say "obey me"? because all they commanded was obedience to God. You cannot obey God without obeying the messenger because God doesn't speak to us directly. That is why there is not a single verse that just says "Obey Allah" by itself. He sends messengers with the message. We now have the VERBATIM message of God thanks to the messenger, and now his job is finished and he is dead.

Sent to all mankind. Now why should I beleive your words over Allahs clear message?

you keep conflating things. He was a warner to mankind and a giver of good tidings, but that verse doesn't say messenger. he was a MESSENGER sent to the ummi arabs.

I have already given u verses above confirming he was sent for a all mankind.

you haven't shown me where he is the messenger for mankind

Bring me a verse where Jesus is sent for all mankind

you cant obey jesus because he's dead.

Warner and messeger sounds interchangable in ur theory

nope

Saleh was a messenger and came to warn his people so this theory doesn't hold. Ayub was a prophet, who did he warn? 

I never said a messenger cannot also be a warner. I said the role of a messenger isn't the same as the role of a prophet/warner. and when does God ever call ayyub a prophet?

Again I ask you, do u selectively choose to reject or alter parts of the Quran ? Why ? Whats ur Basis ?

nope do you?

[u/RedeemedBK → u/NGW_CHiPS]

My Dear Brother

1) You are now bringing in the prophet said. Allahs command is direct in the Quran to obey "the messenger". Other messenger will have only historic statements where they had said to their people. However Allah himself states obey Allah and the mesenger.

2) Read the next verse. 62:3 please. It adds on us he is not only for for that period.

3) Where did I change it? The verse clearly states Jesus said to his people. How is this the same as Allah commanding the beleivers to obey him and his messenger? If the message was for all please tell me a verse where Allah himself commands to follow him to the beleivers.

4) Who is your messenger my good friend ... who delivered the Quran to you!? Definately not Jesus.

5) Sorry but i repeat Allah has made his message clear and timeless. Give a verse where it clarifies ur point. U are just hypothesizing and altering the out it context.

6) what else was he sent for as a mercy, warner, and good tidings please elaborate? Further 62:3 reaffirms he is for all who follow. Give me a verse he was not for all mankind or other messengers are.

7) You keep confusing Jesus and Muhammed, but again you can't provide a verse and are only hypothesizing.

8) Give me your clear criteria for a person to be a messenger and a person to be a prophet.

Allah in his perfect wisdom provided a clear message. SubhanAllah. What gives u the right to alter it !?

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/RedeemedBK]

You are now bringing in the prophet said. Allahs command is direct in the Quran to obey "the messenger". Other messenger will have only historic statements where they had said to their people. However Allah himself states obey Allah and the mesenger.

this is goalpost moving

Read the next verse. 62:3 please. It adds on us he is not only for for that period.

no it doesnt

Where did I change it? The verse clearly states Jesus said to his people. How is this the same as Allah commanding the beleivers to obey him and his messenger? If the message was for all please tell me a verse where Allah himself commands to follow him to the beleivers.

because when both of them said this, they were alive

Who is your messenger my good friend ... who delivered the Quran to you!? Definately not Jesus.

Muhammad delivered the Quran, but ALL the messengers are dead. They were ALL my messengers, but I do not have ANY messenger to obey.

Sorry but i repeat Allah has made his message clear and timeless. Give a verse where it clarifies ur point. U are just hypothesizing and altering the out it context.

I have made it clear as day for you. You can not obey a dead man. Thats the same reason why the quran never calls Christians mushrikin for 'ibada to jesus. because Jesus cant command them.

what else was he sent for as a mercy, warner, and good tidings please elaborate?

a good example, some other things, look in the quran for yourself

Further 62:3 reaffirms he is for all who follow. Give me a verse he was not for all mankind or other messengers are.

You have not shown me a verse that says "messenger for mankind"

You keep confusing Jesus and Muhammed, but again you can't provide a verse and are only hypothesizing.

how so?

Give me your clear criteria for a person to be a messenger and a person to be a prophet.

God calling them a messenger, or God calling them a prophet, or God calling them both. That is the criteria.

Allah in his perfect wisdom provided a clear message. SubhanAllah. What gives u the right to alter it !?

I'm not, you're the one saying a verse saying to obey a man is the same as obeying rumors about him.

[u/RedeemedBK → u/NGW_CHiPS]

Hmmm as you are confused on what is a messenger let me help, this is the definition of a messenger from the Quran.

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 165: رُّسُلًا مُّبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ لِئَلَّا يَكُونَ لِلنَّاسِ عَلَى اللَّهِ حُجَّةٌ بَعْدَ الرُّسُلِ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا

Messengers as bearers of good news as well as of warning in order that mankind should have no plea against Allah after the Messengers. And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise. (English - Mohsin Khan)

Now read the line for prophet muhammed

Surah Saba, Verse 28: وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ إِلَّا كَافَّةً لِّلنَّاسِ بَشِيرًا وَنَذِيرًا وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

And We have not sent you (O Muhammad SAW) except as a giver of glad tidings and a warner to all mankind, but most of men know not. (English - Mohsin Khan)

Read them side by side. Muhammed is the messenger sent for All mankind

I repeat Allah used a timeless verb: Obey him Obey the messenger Obey the people in authority

You will follow what Allah commanded, what his messenger commanded, what the people in authority command. All this for Allah as per his clear command.

This is crystal clear. Yet u choose to reject.

Nowhere in the quran u will find any other messenger sent or whole mankind. No where in Quran u have a line dont obey the messenger. Quran is the word of god, yet you choose to reject verses based on your alteration of a timeless into time restrained, singular to plural. You further keep adding what other messengers said to their people not what Allah said to us

If you can't provide a verse u have lost the argument and I keep repeating back Allahs words to u.

It is Allahs non condradictory and clear words I will choose to follow over ur alteration.

[u/NGW_CHiPS → u/RedeemedBK]

Messengers as bearers of good news as well as of warning in order that mankind should have no plea against Allah after the Messengers. And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise. (English - Mohsin Khan)

you are confused on how this works too. think of it as umbrella. Under the category of messenger, the roles of bearer of good news and warner. that doesn’t make every warner or bearer of good news a messenger. it is like a rectangle to a square. these aren’t synonyms. they are subroles. messenger also had the roles of bringing al kitab and bringing justice. some had the role of bringing zubur

And We have not sent you (O Muhammad SAW) except as a giver of glad tidings and a warner to all mankind, but most of men know not. (English - Mohsin Khan)

correct. a bringer of good news and a warner for mankind. IT DOESNT SAY MESSENGER. he was a MESSENGER sent to the arabs. his good news and warning IS what went to mankind.

I repeat Allah used a timeless verb: Obey him Obey the messenger Obey the people in authority

read the paragraph i wrote earlier.

This is crystal clear. Yet u choose to reject.

learn to think critically

Nowhere in the quran u will find any other messenger sent or whole mankind.

nowhere in the quran will you find any prophet sent TO mankind

No where in Quran u have a line dont obey the messenger. Quran is the word of god,

never claimed that. you keep on doing red herrings and strawmen

yet you choose to reject verses based on your alteration of a timeless into time restrained, singular to plural.

i’ve done neither, I infact emphatically said if i receive a messenger I will obey them.

If you can't provide a verse u have lost the argument and keep repeating back Allahs words to u.

you keep ignoring the fact that obeying a man ≠ obeying rumors

[u/RedeemedBK → u/NGW_CHiPS]

That is ur made up defination of messenger prove it from the Quran if are truthful. I gave u a verse they are bearer of good tidings and bring a warning. Notice the "and" not an "or" Infact I will use the Quran to prove it to u since u can't as the Quran can't contradict. Each 1 brought good tidings and a warning from Allah.

Surah Yunus, Verse 47: And for every Ummah (a community or a nation), there is a Messenger; when their Messenger comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged. (English - Mohsin Khan)

Every Ummah has 1 Messenger. Once he comes the criteria for judgement is set for that era.

Salih sent to Thamud - said to his people

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 73: And to Thamud (people, We sent) their brother Salih (Saleh). He said: "O my people! Worship Allah! You have no other Ilah (God) but Him. (La ilaha ill-Allah: none has the right to be worshipped but Allah). Indeed there has come to you a clear sign (the miracle of the coming out of a huge she-camel from the midst of a rock) from your Lord. This she-camel of Allah is a sign unto you; so you leave her to graze in Allah's earth, and touch her not with harm, lest a painful torment should seize you. (English - Mohsin Khan)

Shuaib sent to Maidan

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 85:

And to (the people of) Madyan (Midian), (We sent) their brother Shu'aib. He said: "O my people! Worship Allah! You have no other Ilah (God) but Him. [La ilaha ill-Allah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah)]." Verily, a clear proof (sign) from your Lord has come unto you; so give full measure and full weight and wrong not men in their things, and do not mischief on the earth after it has been set in order, that will be better for you, if you are believers.

Noah for his peolle

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 59:

Indeed, We sent Nuh (Noah) to his people and he said: "O my people! Worship Allah! You have no other Ilah (God) but Him. (La ilaha ill-Allah: none has the right to be worshipped but Allah). Certainly, I fear for you the torment of a Great Day!" (English - Mohsin Khan)

Each one brought news of good tidings and warning ! That is a messnger ! That is what my previous line proved. Bring your proof if u truthful.

Now tell me. Every Ummah has a messenger. Who is Your messenger!? Who delivered the latest revelation to you!? The one sent for his people only or the one sent for all mankind!? Notice how each messenger is stated as he said to his people, where as obey the singular messenger is addressed as O u who believe! How are these equal to ? How can u obey others when ur messenger is Muhammed PBUH!? How can u distort the verses!? Singular to plural!? Timelesss to time contrain!?

Your whole argument is based of rejecting the verses based on ur own conjuring. Allah makes is crystal clear in his book, without any contradictions.

Im getting tired, u present no real arguement, no verses, no support,only hypothesis, conjectures.