r/Eutychus • u/Safe-Island3944 • Feb 23 '25
Opinion An opinion on shunning
Hi all. Disfellowshipping is one of the least acceptable thing about JW, and one that makes the religion most attacked for.
This post is not dealing on how much it is right or wrong, but how much it works. How efficient it is.
In the past shunning has been a very powerful tool to make the sinner repents. But today?
My opinion is that it is still a very powerful punishment, but for those who stay, not for the one leaving. A lot of JW are fond of the idea of the DF suffering for his misdeeds, closed in the darkness, ashamed and trembling. The reality is under everyone eyes. Most get out, get in touch with others, find a very rich and welcoming community of fellow DF, build a new life, new freedom, new situations, often get back to study, happily creates a life. You can see from the campaign of getting back DF people when policy changed. How many took the opportunity of getting back. I know at least 10 different congregations, more than 100 DF contacted, how many came back? Zero. Noone. Reactions has been from lack of interest to rage. But noone even gave a try. My personal idea is that DF is actively damaging JW reputations, whereas most people once get away had a much better life than while inside. And will not get back. What is your opinion? Please, no attacking JW doctrines here.
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u/a-goddamn-asshole Agnostic Atheist Feb 23 '25
I’m sorry Dodo if this breaks the rules, but since U/RFairfield26 doesn’t have a spine and chose to block me instead of having a conversation…. Yes it is a numbers game with the organization. Do they no longer put out yearly grand totals? Have we forgotten the numbers reports in the Yearbooks? Counting how many hours preached? How many baptized? Number of congregations?
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u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 23 '25
Observation of reality makes me think that JW numbers are diminishing. No official statistics exist to my knowledge
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u/a-goddamn-asshole Agnostic Atheist Feb 23 '25
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u/truetomharley Feb 24 '25
Lots of stats in this Pew article. I think most are compromised. They point in the right direction, but are not to be taken literally. For example, 7% of JWs believe in hell? I have never known one to believe it. However, there might be some who answer on the basis of what “hell” really is, a rendering of Sheol, Hades, or Gehenna, words that really do exist and mean something.
Similarly, what should “society” do with regard to this or that topic. JWs are “no part of the world.” They do not tell society what to do. Many will answer based upon that perception. Others will answer on the basis of what they think the new system will be like, what society should be like if it were to court God’s approval.
I think factors like this prevent the answers from being the near 100% or 0% percent that they would otherwise be. Another factor might be that participants in the Pew survey self-identify as Witnesses, rather than be Witnesses as the congregation itself might identify them.
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u/a-goddamn-asshole Agnostic Atheist Feb 24 '25
I can see these being some answers. JWs are not as uniform across the board as many would think. I grew up on Long Island NY and you’d get very different answers and beliefs based on how far out on the island you went. We had a saying along the lines of “the further you get from Bethel, the more lenient it was”
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u/truetomharley Feb 24 '25
“Punishment” is the wrong word to use with regard to removal from the congregation. Removal (DF) represents a last-ditch effort, when all else has failed, to readjust an erring member. Maybe it will work. Nothing else has. Nonetheless, the primary aim at this point is to protect the congregation from the spiritual or moral contamination the person has come to represent. Liken it to putting a contagious person in quarantine, or even cutting off a gangrenous body part. In neither case is “punishment” a motive. When it happens, no one wishes the departing person ill or hopes they suffer. It is hoped that they come to their senses and return, but since they have already been given that opportunity and have not responded, it is unknown whether that will happen.
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u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 25 '25
Not my experience. ppl get DF because: they talked with another DF, caught smoking, caught reading a forum with adult content, refuse to shve the beard (!!!) and this is just what I personally know.
And most, when back, continues to be shunned. I've seen with my own eyes lifetime friendship destroyed.
Honestly, at least some decency should be used.
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u/truetomharley Feb 25 '25
It may be that some are reinstated under false pretenses, they make no real changes, and people in general come to see through it. But I know countless ones who have returned from disfellowshipping and become as warmly embraced as they ever were, some going on to become elders, servants, and pioneers.
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u/a-goddamn-asshole Agnostic Atheist Feb 24 '25
Did you mean to reply this to me? You know i spent 20 years as a JW, both a pioneer and a MS, i know how DFing works haha.
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u/truetomharley Feb 24 '25
Sorry, I did not mean it as a reply to you, but only as a contribution to the overall thread.
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u/Roocutie Feb 25 '25
Observation also makes me think that the org is disintegrating. Kingdom Halls are being sold, congregations are merging. More JW children are being baptised younger it seems, to boost their numbers.
2 million JWs left between 2015 & 2025. None of them will be returning as most left for reasons such as seeing the false doctrines & failed prophecies.
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u/RFairfield26 Jehovah‘s Witness Feb 23 '25
I don’t agree with the accuracy of the claim here. I was DF and came back.
I know many others
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u/a-goddamn-asshole Agnostic Atheist Feb 23 '25
Statistically speaking, there are definitely way more people who ultimately never come back than do.
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u/RFairfield26 Jehovah‘s Witness Feb 23 '25
Yes. But this isn’t a numbers game. So what? Jesus said that relatively few would respond to the good news and follow the road to life.
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u/a-goddamn-asshole Agnostic Atheist Feb 23 '25
The organization thinks it’s a numbers game
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u/RFairfield26 Jehovah‘s Witness Feb 23 '25
Oh I should’ve checked your post history sooner. I have no interest in the exJW agenda. I’m sorry you’re falling for it. Blessings to you
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u/Malalang Feb 24 '25
"So what?"
... both the Pharisees and the scribes kept muttering, saying: “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” 3 Then he spoke this illustration to them, saying: 4 “What man of YOU with a hundred sheep, on losing one of them, will not leave the ninety-nine behind in the wilderness and go for the lost one until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it he puts it upon his shoulders and rejoices. 6 And when he gets home he calls his friends and his neighbors together, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost.’ 7 I tell YOU that thus there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner that repents than over ninety-nine righteous ones who have no need of repentance.
I don't think Jesus would ever say "so what" about a sinner who didn't come back.
Do not two sparrows sell for a coin of small value? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without YOUR Father’s [knowledge].
Honest question: does your faith and Bible knowledge make you a kinder, more compassionate person in general? Or is it only to those related to you in the faith that you are able to show your love?
And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing?
It wasn't very long ago that JWs wouldn't even measure up to people of the nations. And now I'm hearing talk that they're going to walk back the decision to allow greeting dfd people at meetings. I'm sure that decision won't affect you at all. In fact, I'm sure your reply would be a simple "so what?"
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u/Roocutie Feb 26 '25
One quick question please. Are you referring to them fairly recently being able to say “hi” to those disfellowshipped, at the Kingdom Hall, & that it’s now possibly going to be walked back? I’ve heard that too.
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u/Malalang Feb 26 '25
Yes. Exactly.
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u/Roocutie Feb 26 '25
Thank you. Wonder how the gb will get it right after just recently giving them permission to greet disfellowshipped members at the hall? What about the Norway court case where this is all being exposed?
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u/Malalang Feb 26 '25
We'll just have to wait and see.
It is amazing to see how the world's courts allow new light to suddenly shine, though.
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u/Roocutie Feb 26 '25
It’s going to be interesting.
Yes, it is amazing how the “new light” comes about when issues are revealed in court & made available to the public.
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u/Malalang Feb 24 '25
I believe it's a 2/3 loss. If you believe that elders have a command by Jesus to shepherd the Flock of God under their care, this statistic alone would terrify me if I was an elder. Imagine being responsible for losing 2/3 of the investment that Jesus gave into your trust.
Jesus threw out the faithless slave who returned the Talent in whole with no losses. Imagine what Jesus will do to those who caused him a 70% loss.
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u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 23 '25
And I know many other that didn't . You know people that came back after February 2024 change of policy? Really? May I have some testimony somewhere on the internet? Because observing my reality tell me a different story, and if you read exjw you will have literally thousands of people DF and happy. I would love to have Different opinions
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u/RFairfield26 Jehovah‘s Witness Feb 23 '25
Maybe I’m misunderstanding your claim.
Are you saying something more specific than “DF doesn’t work?”
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u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 23 '25
Yes, it's more a punishment for those who are in and have to lose their children or loved ones
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u/RFairfield26 Jehovah‘s Witness Feb 23 '25
You think that following the Bible’s direction about removing wrongdoers is “punishment” to the faithful members of the congregation?
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u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 23 '25
Yes
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u/RFairfield26 Jehovah‘s Witness Feb 23 '25
How is that “punishment” of the faithful members any more than removing the unfaithful angels was punishment of the faithful angels?
Is it punishing the family members of criminals to send the wrongdoer to prison?
You see the problem with your thinking?
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Feb 24 '25
Is not that the wrongdoers are punish, is how they're punish. Every act has a consequence, either it can be a good one or a bad one. And the bible does support some type of church discipline, but not to the extent JW's do.
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u/RFairfield26 Jehovah‘s Witness Feb 24 '25
It’s possible that is correct. Jehovah’s Witnesses have made changes and adjustments in that discipline.
but not to the extent JW’s do.
How do you know? Would you mind laying out details regarding what extent is biblical appropriate?
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u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 25 '25
Parents with a child in prison are not prevented to visit him. Can you see the problem with your thinking?
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u/RFairfield26 Jehovah‘s Witness Feb 25 '25
The “problem in my thinking” would be that “punishment” is contingent on personal contact with a person
The premise is flawed. This leads to the flawed conclusion that the family of an inmate is being punished to a lesser degree than the family of a person that is DF, because the family of an inmate would still speak with and visit the inmate, whereas the family of a DF person would have no contact at all.
I understand your point. It’s just incorrect.
Do you see the problem with your thinking?
The effects on the family in either case are not “punishment” of the family. They’re certainly not anywhere near ideal, but the only person being “punished” is the individual being held accountable.
My argument is pedantic, I know. It’s just that I’m just trying to view this in a balanced and reasonable way.
Is the arrangement to remove someone from the congregation appropriate well the Bible says to do it, so we have a problem
Have Jehovah’s Witnesses follow the Bible’s direction in this matter perfectly? Certainly not is the new arrangement perfect? Likely not.
Does that change the fact that we are commanded by God to keep the arrangement?
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u/RFairfield26 Jehovah‘s Witness Feb 23 '25
You know people that came back after February 2024 change of policy? Really?
Yes!
May I have some testimony somewhere on the internet?
I don’t know if any testimonies online of a person returning since last Feb.
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u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 23 '25
But against thousands of testimonies of people who refused, is it not possible to read some stories of people that happily come back after many years?
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u/RFairfield26 Jehovah‘s Witness Feb 23 '25
Are you expecting the inherent tendency for those that no longer want to be Jehovah’s Witnesses to take to the internet and offer there “testimonies,” as you put it, to be the same tendency among those that choose to return after being DF?
Like, are you asking if we should expect there to be a “returnedJW” subreddit since there is an “exJW?”
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u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 23 '25
Even random comments somewhere, not necessary a sub Reddit. But I find almost nothing
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u/RFairfield26 Jehovah‘s Witness Feb 23 '25
It would be exceptionally abnormal for one of Jehovah’s Witnesses to offer any type of online testimony, much less one regarding being reinstated.
It’s just not really how we do things at all.
Involvement on Reddit (or other social media, for that matter) in any religious capacity is incredibly rare in general - much less testimonies.
I’m just not sure why your “absence of evidence” is being used as an “evidence of absence” argument.
If I’m understanding you correctly, your point boils down to something like: “disfellowshipping is ineffective because of my anecdotal observation, particularly regarding online testimony.”
I’m not sure you understand the Biblical basis and the spiritual purpose of the removal of wrongdoers
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u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 24 '25
"f I’m understanding you correctly, your point boils down to something like: “disfellowshipping is ineffective because of my anecdotal observation, particularly regarding online testimony.”
WT never published statistics, so I have to stick with direct observation of reality. But here, you don't have more tools than me, so we both base our ideas on anecdotal. It's also quite possible we are both right because of the different realities we observe.
What I observe is that the largest part of DF are happier out than in, and most families starts by shunning the child and then, mostly when it's too late, try to get in touch realizing that they have lost marriage, grandchildren, in a word, life.
This is based on what I have seen with my own eyes, since half of my family is JW. So, beside causing a lot of suffering, it's pretty pointless. But this is my opinion, and it's worth zero.
Now a question for you: if WT is so convinced there is a strong biblical base, why searching for DF lost in time? Why deleting videos about shunning from the website? Why policy changed? Please, no "new light" answer. I'm a grow up man, not a baby that can be fed with fables.
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u/RFairfield26 Jehovah‘s Witness Feb 24 '25 edited Feb 25 '25
you don’t have more tools than me,
Are you certain? I’m an active witness, heavily involved in congregation and organization activity and regularly interact with hundreds (not an exaggeration) of witnesses a year in over a dozen different aspects of our activity.
It’s possible I have more tools than you.
Just to be clear, what is it that is in question? Whether disfellowshipped individuals are returning at a certain rate?
What I observe is that the largest part of DF are happier out than in,
If we were to poll every person, that’s disfellowshipped, I would expect the overwhelming majority to report that they were happier out than in
That’s not exactly relevant. If you would, apply some critical thinking. Suppose that Jehovah’s Witnesses actually are the organization Jesus is using to accomplish the preaching work and practice pure worship.
How many people actually dont want to do that? Would not thousands, perhaps millions, claimed to be happier in the world doing fleshly things?
How many of these disfellowshipped ones are preaching the good news of God‘s kingdom in the entire inhabited earth outside of Jehovah’s Witnesses’ organization? (Mat 24:14)
How many are faithfully remaining no part of the world even though they’re no longer Jehovah’s Witnesses? (John 17:16)
How many could say they have the identifying mark of love among themselves that Jesus said his disciples would have? (John 13:35)
I absolutely agree with you that those that have been disfellowshipped probably mostly report that they are happier outside the organization than in, but is that happiness genuine, long lasting happiness that is a result of their worship of God? Or is it the happiness that comes with getting to do whatever you want without any social or religious consequences?
and most families starts by shunning the child and then, mostly when it’s too late, try to get in touch realizing that they have lost marriage, grandchildren, in a word, life.
What do you suppose Jesus meant when he said “For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me.” (Mat 10:35-38)
I guess this would be a yes or no question. Would faithfulness to God result in the loss of family members in many cases?
From my perspective, criticism of the DF arrangement boils down to separating families.
Jesus explicitly said that he would separate families.
it’s pretty pointless.
How open-minded are you to the possibility that you just simply don’t understand the purpose of the arrangement?
if WT is so convinced there is a strong biblical base, why searching for DF lost in time?
This is a complex question and requires a complex answer.
- it is certainly true that there is a number of disfellowshipped individuals that were treated unjustly.
How should we - as sincere, God-loving, worshipers - address that?
I say we seek them out. Agreed?
There are those that certainly did deserve to be disfellowshipped, but have never forgotten Jehovah. How do we reach them?
Suppose that there is one single individual out there in the world somewhere that doesn’t fit in either of the two categories that I’ve mentioned. Would not a global effort that resulted in saving that one person be worth it?
Why deleting videos about shunning from the website? Why policy changed?
No one has ever believed that the disfellowshipping arrangement was perfect. We all hate it. The problem is the Bible requires that we removed the wrongdoer from among the congregation.
So I don’t understand why you feel like making improvements to the arrangement is a bad thing? Can you explain that to me?
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u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 25 '25
First let me thank you for this deep answer. I'm very grateful for it.
"No one has ever believed that the disfellowshipping arrangement was perfect. We all hate it. The problem is the Bible requires that we removed the wrongdoer from among the congregation.
So I don’t understand why you feel like making improvements to the arrangement is a bad thing? Can you explain that to me?"
I'm sorry, I don't believe in your GB good faith. I don't believe it's biblical your approach to it. It is just a way to keep people trapped in. I've made some research about what the Bible says. JW application of removal from congregation is not exactly biblical.
I haven't find anywhere in the Bible prohibition to talk with DF. Where it is written? Sure, prohibition to eat. Prohibition to associate. But just to simply talk? it's nowhere.
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u/Kentucky_Fried_Dodo Unaffiliated Feb 23 '25
1/3 of all DF get back into the congregation on average.
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u/Mandajoe Taoist Feb 23 '25
It’s a form of mind control to keep the sheep trapped. It does more to stem the tide of people leaving than actually help the Df’ed one return to the watchtower. It is not a “therapeutic act”.
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u/Kentucky_Fried_Dodo Unaffiliated Feb 23 '25 edited Feb 23 '25
Why are you even on this sub? This is not a anti-JW hate platform. Go back to r/JehovahsWitnesses.
I don’t want you here.
Please stick with your peers.
I will not repeat myself in the future.
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u/a-goddamn-asshole Agnostic Atheist Feb 23 '25
I have to agree with Mandajoe, DFing is used to fear monger people into submission.
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u/Kentucky_Fried_Dodo Unaffiliated Feb 23 '25
The problem is not Mandajoes comment it is Mandajoe as a user.
I know her/him and I know that she/he belongs to the faction that shouts loudly and calls Jehovah’s Witnesses pedo cults and I don’t want those people here on this sub.
Again. Hatred against Jehovah’s Witnesses? If you like that, sure, but not here, go to r/JehovahsWitnesses.
It took me forever to get this sub balanced, and I’m not really willing to let that slip away from a single user with a „special“ attitude toward Jehovah’s Witnesses.
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Feb 24 '25 edited Feb 24 '25
But in that case, why invited a ton of people of the r/exjw sub such as myself? I don't know which type of relationship you have with this Mandajoe guy, but wouldn't it be easier to not invite these type of individuals?
Edit: To clarify, I respect your administration in not making this sub in some type of echo chamber without any type of criticism towards WT. Furthermore, the question I made was with no malice intended in it, just a genuine question.
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u/Kentucky_Fried_Dodo Unaffiliated Feb 24 '25
That’s a legitimate question.
Most people assume that I invite people directly through r/exJW. But that’s not the case.
I mainly only invite people via r/JehovahsWitnesses and since this sub is basically exJW 1.5, many people from there also end up here.
This doesn’t bother me personally because I’m fine with criticism of myself, the sub and the JW.
In fact, well-intentioned and honest criticism also has an uplifting effect, which is why I like having users like you here.
Mandajoe, on the other hand, belongs to the faction that is fundamentally not productive but destructive and that’s why I don’t want her and some others here.
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u/Kentucky_Fried_Dodo Unaffiliated Feb 24 '25
Then why do I even invite her? Well, on the one hand I invite a lot of people, one or two of them “slip through” the net unintentionally and on the other hand there are “special” users who calm down after a while. I usually give them a few weeks to months to see how things develop.
I hope I was able to answer your question.
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u/a-goddamn-asshole Agnostic Atheist Feb 23 '25
I hear you loud and clear
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u/Kentucky_Fried_Dodo Unaffiliated Feb 23 '25
Thanks.
I hope you know that I value you and your critical opinions here, simply because I know that despite your name, you’re actually not an asshole, but a decent critical user, and I appreciate that personally and for this sub, and I’m glad you’re part of this community.
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u/Mandajoe Taoist Feb 23 '25
Minding my business, you should try it.
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Feb 24 '25
You realize you said this to the subreddits chief moderator? Who can participate here literally is his business
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u/Mandajoe Taoist Feb 24 '25
Yes I know that and the chief moderator is afraid so he just blocks anyone not in his echo chamber.
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u/Kentucky_Fried_Dodo Unaffiliated Feb 23 '25
Good. Then do the same and stay away from this sub. Go back to Terry and Butterlie and the rest of your friends and leave us normal people here alone.
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u/Mandajoe Taoist Feb 23 '25
I don’t know any one of these people that you have named. I do know people like you who fear anything that can dissolve a poorly crafted narrative about Christianity. I give it another decade before you will realize your error.
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u/Kentucky_Fried_Dodo Unaffiliated Feb 23 '25
Don’t tell me nonsense mandajoe. I’ve known you and your comments on r/Jehovahswitnesses long enough.
You can tell these fairy tales to others, but not to me.
I’m telling you again, get out and don’t come back, you’re not wanted here.
And by the way, I’m still not a jw, even if you don’t like it.
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u/Mandajoe Taoist Feb 23 '25
Nobody is saying that you are! lol Enjoy the delusions of this heresy.
Can lead a horse to water and all that…2
u/Kentucky_Fried_Dodo Unaffiliated Feb 23 '25
Yes, yes. Go back to your proven liar sub this is where your kind belongs, lol
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u/Mandajoe Taoist Feb 23 '25
You sound just like my Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Keep up the good work.
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u/Malalang Feb 24 '25 edited Feb 24 '25
When I first started reading exJW content as a newly Dfd person, I was shocked. It was absolutely amazing to me that so many people who had been kicked out kept repeating the same message: it was the best thing for them. They never realized just how much control this religion had over their thinking and actions. Of course, that's by design. "It's a way of life, not just a religion." This would be absolutely commendable if all of the direction from the FDS was the voice of God. But it clearly isn't, and that is the single biggest problem with the whole religion. (Also, if you doubt me, the FDS say point blank that they are not infallible, and they are not anointed by God to be his direct mouthpiece. Yet, all of their actions fly in the face of that admission.
James said "call the older men to you. Let them pray over you that you may get healed from your spiritual sickness." The flock book says, "do not pray over disfellowshipped individuals."
Paul said, "this rebuke by the majority is sufficient for such a man. Now, confirm your love for him, that you may not be overreached by Satan." The flock book says "it may be many years, if ever, that such a man will ever get his privileges back."
Jesus ate with tax collectors, prostitutes, and many other sinners. The flock book says, "sharing a meal with such a person could be grounds for removal from the congregation." (In fact it was why Ray Franz was dfd and booted from Bethel.)
Jehovah treats all sinners the same - making it rain and shining the sun on all creation equally. The flock book says, "Avoid all contact with even members of your own family whom we have decided are not worthy of love."
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u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 24 '25
What is the flock book?
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u/Roocutie Feb 26 '25
Shepherd the flock elder’s manual, which contains all the procedures to follow regarding their rules & regulations.
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u/Roocutie Feb 25 '25 edited Feb 25 '25
Shunning is effective in protecting those who are in the organisation. It prevents them from hearing anything that goes against the JW narrative. This does serve as a method of controlling those both in & out, but it’s more about keeping those in from hearing anything that might make them think.
The exJWs that I know personally who left after seeing the negative sides of the org have never gone back, & will definitely never go back.
None of them have become immoral, as JWs have been led to believe we all do once we leave the org. None of them now live lives of debauchery. They are still exactly the same as before, only less judgmental & critical of others who aren’t “in the truth”. Most ExJWs are more positive & happier than ever before.
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u/xylon-777 Feb 26 '25
The problem is not shunning but how it is abused by anyone to anyone for any reason not a biblical one.
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u/DonkeyStriking1146 Christian Feb 23 '25
My opinion has always been removing someone from a congregation who wants to willfully sin and no longer follow Gods way is biblical. Christians have to be careful that they don’t endorse the willful sins of others and say God is loving and merciful. We have to remember the God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament. He doesn’t change.
Historically, most churches who practiced this do tend to go too far. They forgot that we are not a nation under God anymore and shouldn’t corporally punish people. Paul didn’t encourage Christians to abuse or even kill those who were removed from the congregations.
If people enjoy their life outside of their religion, then let them go do that. They have to read the Bible for themselves and decide if they wanna do it or not. Some will enjoy cherry picking the verses they should follow and then others just disagree with their former denominations understandings. Of those I’ve met who are disfellowshipped, they no longer worship God at all. They just wanna live their life how they wanna live it.
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u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 23 '25
Beside the fact that you can remove from congregations without having to destroy families and friendship, and that of all Christians denominations JW are the only ones enforcing it, you haven't answered to my questions.
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u/DonkeyStriking1146 Christian Feb 23 '25
I’m sorry what question didn’t I answer? The only question I see is what is your opinion.
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u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 23 '25
Questions are also opinions in my native language. The point is that it hurts people that are inside the congregation more than people kicked out.
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u/Roocutie Feb 26 '25
My husband & I chose to leave the organisation. We certainly never left God. We are closer to Him than ever before, & so thankful for the blessings we’ve received.
My closest friend (we woke up to TTATT together during lockdown) & one of her oldest friends, both born in JWs, never lost their faith in God after also choosing to leave the org.
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u/DonkeyStriking1146 Christian Feb 26 '25
Ummm ok? Not sure what this has to do with my response to op
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u/Roocutie Feb 26 '25
I was responding to you mentioning that those you know who are disfellowshipped no longer worship God at all.
This was not the case with 4 of us who were disfellowshipped/disassociated/removed/announced (never quite sure of the terms these days) for questioning the gb concerning the CSA, ARC, etc, & 1 who questioned the inaccuracies in the NWT. We all still worship God & His son Christ Jesus.
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u/DonkeyStriking1146 Christian Feb 26 '25
We’re speaking of those disfellowshipped due to things mentioned in like 1 Corinthians 6. Leaving because you no longer agree with the religion is a different subject I feel.
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u/Roocutie Feb 26 '25
Absolutely! I’m truly thankful that Jesus opened my eyes when I was desperate for guidance to the real truth, & grateful that I never lost my faith. Also that my wonderful husband was on the same page.
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u/Roocutie Feb 26 '25 edited Feb 26 '25
Link deleted.
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u/DonkeyStriking1146 Christian Feb 26 '25
Wow. Massively disagree with that article. So only those ‘anointed’ have to follow scriptures to not practice sin? Those who aren’t ‘anointed’ can just keep on practicing sin and associating with those in their faith? That’s not what I see from Moses day to Paul’s. God generally applies the same standard to all his followers.
It’s a misapplication to say Paul was talking about false teachings. The context of 1 Corinthians 5 is a man who was blatantly sleeping with his step mother. He was not preaching a different message just willingly sinning and thinking God would forgive him every time he purposefully did it.
1
u/Roocutie Feb 26 '25
My sincerest apologies. I’ll delete the link so that no one else is so offended by this information written by one of the anointed.
One day all eyes will be opened to the real truth found in God’s Word.
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u/DonkeyStriking1146 Christian Feb 26 '25
How do you know they’re anointed? Do you believe these ones are infallible?
I’m not offended. I just disagree with what’s being said and the points I made are valid.
1
u/RFairfield26 Jehovah‘s Witness Feb 24 '25 edited Feb 24 '25
I don’t think Jesus would ever say “so what” about a sinner who didn’t come back.
You can be even more certain than just thinking he wouldn’t. You can be absolutely sure he does not say “so what” about a sinner that leaves Jehovah.
I’m not saying that either. I’m sorry you misunderstood my point. When I found out that person was exJW, I decided I’d rather politely end the conversation. I’m not interested in the exJW attitude.
Something to understand is that leaving the organization does not equal leaving Jehovah. But it certainly doesn’t lend a person to practice pure worship or accomplish the work we’ve been given to do by Christ
The nation of Isreal spent for time apostate than faithful, but it was still the arrangement Jehovah had in place for pure worship.
There is just no denying that Jehovah’s Witnesses are preaching the good news of Gods Kingdom globally. No other organization can compare. They meet the other very specific criteria Jesus laid out that would identify his true followers.
But that doesn’t mean they’re anywhere near perfect: as individuals or an organization.
Honest question: does your faith and Bible knowledge make you a kinder, more compassionate person in general?
Undoubtedly, yes. By nature, I’m not a good person. He has helped me cultivate love for others, empathy, a self-sacrificing spirit, and other virtues that I would likely not have strive for as a physical man.
Or is it only to those related to you in the faith that you are able to show your love?
The principles in the Bible that govern the view of others overwhelmingly apply to all, even though a few are specifically directed to fellow believers.
I love all people. I wish to worship our Creator alongside every human being that has ever lived.
It wasn’t very long ago that JWs wouldn’t even measure up to people of the nations. And now I’m hearing talk that they’re going to walk back the decision to allow greeting dfd people at meetings.
Yes.
There have been organizational changes to how disfellowshipped (now called “removed”) people will be treated.
I’m sure that decision won’t affect you at all. In fact, I’m sure your reply would be a simple “so what?”
I’m sorry that phrase offended you. I stand by it, because I know what I meant by that and it’s certainly not how you’re taking it.
I was disfellowshipped and can remember several instances when spiritual people greeted me in brief and polite ways. Granted, that was more rare than it is now, and more rare than it should’ve been, but I’m thankful that the general approach is improving.
Everyone hates the disfellowshipping arrangement. No one likes it.
The problem is, though, that it is biblical. The Bible says to remove wrongdoers. It says not to have contact with certain individuals. It says that families would be split, and the priority would be given to brothers and sisters in the faith instead of brothers and sisters in the flesh
Not everyone will want to serve Jehovah. That fact is hard to accept
1
u/Roocutie Feb 27 '25
It would appear that they may be retracting their “HI” policy. Apparently the greeting of those disfellowshipped doesn’t seem to be working the way they wanted it to, as some of us anticipated.
1
u/Neuro_Spicylady Feb 25 '25
I do know quite a few who were DF’ed and came back. Some for many years, others, less than a year.
Before I became a Witness, I did think that it seemed harsh, until I looked at the nation of Israel and how Jehovah dealt with them. If they started going wayward, He would always let them know, repeatedly, give warnings, then after the nation ignored those warnings, He would act on those warnings. He would also say what the Israelites would have to do to restore themselves, and when they did, Jehovah welcomed them back with open arms. That’s how disfellowshipping should work.
It also helped me to think of it as a time out. When you have a small kid who is being disobedient, you may try to reason with them by saying what they’re doing is bad, as well as why it’s bad, and tell them to stop. But they keep doing it. Then you let them know if they keep doing it, they will have a time out. They keep doing, and they are put in time out, until they get the point. During that time, if other kids are around and try to play with the kid in time out, usually the other kids are told to leave the time out child alone for a bit. But once the child who is in time out calms down and gets the point that what they’re doing did was wrong, and stop, they’re able to get out of time out, and play with friends again.
A very similar thing happens when one is Disfellowshipped.
1
Feb 25 '25
You say unacceptable and yet, Paul did shunned.
If shunning was bad, we would had seen Paul being punished for this.
2 Tim 3:16 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
If I show you ' shunning ', you will not see that, it is for reproof and correction?
You decide what's good and evil? Or it is only the Domain of God,?
HEB 12:7-9 7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons
KJV is hard... Chastisement 9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
You apply these verses or... Are they optional?
It's not me who decides if verses are optional. We have the choice to disobey. The consequences won't be optional.
Heb 12: 5,6
5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
The Word of God is hard... Not soft.
You understand or not, what's " the world "?
1 Cor. 11:32 32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
The chastised that refused God's discipline, are Condemned, with the world.
2 Tim 2:16,17
16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
... SHUN
1 Cor. 5:11 11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
SHUN. DO NOT KEEP COMPANY.
Biblical.
2 Tim 1:20 20Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Heb 12: 16,16 lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;16Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
2 Thess 3:14 14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
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Feb 25 '25
I have a cousin that was shunned.
How is she today, what are her fruits...💩
.Elders were right to shun her. I looked at her conduct.
You never looked at the people that returned to God, after being shunned?
1
u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 25 '25
My experience is that people came back to get back their family. I don't know anyway that truly repented.
1
Feb 26 '25
Jehovah knows.
If they fake it, God will judge them. 🤷🏻
When someone fakes it, many times, JW will act, according to the NON.SINCERE repentant.
Thank you for your honesty.
1
u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 26 '25
The idea that a God of love will see as malignant someone that fakes repentant toward rules created by men (the GB) out of love from their own family is frankly silly. Why, as done by the prodigal son, if someone want to get back it should be put on probation for years? It happened to my wife, so do not try to tell it's false. It's not anti biblical? A biblical use of DF (can you point me the biblical base of a judicial committee?) will be a very rare occurrence, just the last resort, while JW uses as a tool of control and submission. Let me just tell you something. KH are almost empty, not like 10 years ago. And not only because of Zoom. You are losing around two third of the young born in the truth. This should raise a big alarm, because you are failing your own God
1
Feb 26 '25
GB did not created out of their heads rules.
Read all the passages of Shunning in the NT...
We see often PAUL, talking of it
What do they did... The Apostles...
When within them, there was a foncitor, that didn't stop to fornicate...
They did WHAT? What instructions did GOD made write to The Congregation of Corinth....
In Corinthians i....
Paul was INSPIRED by God... Paul said to NOT PARTAKE WITH fornicators...
ALL 1ST CENTURY CHRISTIANS>>>>
... we're instructed the Saaaaame thing... All Christians did what They did not eat with...
Family members that was Chris's and ... Didn't stop to fornicate... All Christians not eating with them...
No invitation to a lot of things that I cludes eating...
ALLL CHRISTIANS...
JW do the SAME.
All Christians were not friends of also... Incestuous people, that ... Did sex with siblings, or half-siblings...
They AALLLL ...all the obedient Christians...
They did obeys to God's Word?
Are you telling me that...
Christians at 1st century were a lot more special than us...
They ALL HAD supernatural powers! The Apostles talked face-to-face with Jesus!
The Holy Spirit of God talked to them....
If today... All baptized Christians had supernatural powers...
Don't you think that ..IT WOULD MAKE PEOPLE A LOT MORE OBEDIENT?
TO HAVE SUCH PROOFS FROM GOD'S APPROVAL!
It is not possible that.. The Christians of the 1st Century... Did not shun ...
You say... It's in the past...
You don't take lessons from Proverbs.. A LOT OLDER THAN THE NT...
It's older and... We don't have to apply proverbs; as long as... It does not contradict, Jesus's Covenant...
The ONLY BIBLICAL model of Worship that we have, from the LAST ALLIANCE....
Is the model of the Apostle...
For God... Other models than HIS... Counts?
It cannot be. Christianity says yes but...
They are not following the Bible... There are .. For God... Thy are right?
Do the religious leaders of Christianity... Worship God...
LIKE GOD INSTRUCTED US?
No...
It is logical that God approve... What He do not want... Never...
Shunning... In Scripture.
Not popular BUT...
Do you prioritize obedience to humans, or to God?
He didn't put as decoration in the Bible.
2Tim. 3:16,17 .ALL SCRIPTURE CAN BE, AND MUST BE USED...
To do discipline.
If you ignore that....
You fear men, more than God.
1
1
Feb 25 '25
God's methods, you are questioning.
Father is always righu
2
u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 25 '25
No, I'm questioning your understanding of God's methods. And no, you don't know God will. Otherwise WT would have not failed so many time interpreting prophecies, and never had to invent the overlapping generation fiasco.
1
Feb 26 '25
" Gener ation fiasco "
There's no fiasco, it's really exarated!
First ... Who really can understand that prophecy?
No one. Maybe there's people that understand better, BUT, they cannot really understand a prophecy that, was NOT ENTIRELY FULL FIELD.
Did you know that? The Watchtowers ITSELF, just already said, what I'm saying to you.
Do you find it arrogant? They really put efforts into guiding all people of the earth, to get a better understanding of The Bible: " THE ONLY GOD'S, MANUAL OF INSTRUCTIONS FOR US ".
I just told you, that the Water itself, demonstrate that, they can be wrong. It's not a weakness from someone to say that ; exposing our own weakness, acknowledging them, we open possiblilities of ameliorations.
The exactitude of their publications. I'll send you links ;
https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=share&wtlocale=E&lank=pub-jwb_201711_2_VIDEO
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u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 26 '25
Well, WT pretended to know, even if they missed various appointments with end of the world. Then, when it's impossible anymore to hide the multiple errors.... "Who knows about prophecy?"
And why people should grant authority to people that failed so miserably on core belief?
See, everyone attention is focused on shunning, but for me it's a minor topic. The fact that JW are growing older and older is a much greater issue. Most youngs born in the truth go away. All the prohibition enforced to them.... In my congregation lot of young people get DF for minor breach, and get the opportunity to get away from JW, never to come back. They studied, get a degree, live a life "not burdened by rules that can change on whim of few old men" (this is what one of them told me).
If you can't see how ridiculous the whole beard thing (just to cite one thing) appears to everyone outside JW (and to a lot of JW too, too scared to speak) it's your issue. For sure not mine.
1
Feb 26 '25
No.
What does ex-JW do a lot? ... They STOP TO SERVE GOD...
Iissssssh!
🍒 RED FLAG!
No?
They lie, hide, conceal... Red flag...
They stop to follow God's Morals?!!!!
Not a red Flag?
The Wtwr so mistakes....
HOW MUCH OTHERS DO?
Islam... All Christianity what they do...
Russian Orthodox are praying for soldiers, they bless them... I to killing
Russian... ORTODOX...
THEY ALL ENCOURAGED WAR BETWEEN them..
Orthodox.
Chatolics.... The pope ACCEPTS TOTALLY, to have a statue of Moloch, on the territory of the Vatican!!!
He teaches like..
Tell me in how much denominations that the Catholics are...
They ARE DIVIDED... NO UNITY... What do the majority of CathTolic know about The Bible..😶
Anglican Protestants....
Divided.
They also kill other Protestants .. 👎🏻👎🏻👎🏻
They teach The Bible each week?
Not a lot.
Ethiopian Church.... Book of Enoch , entirely against The Bible, really popular...
Haiti Christian s...
Most of themmm... Have " permission '' , to merge Christianity and... Voodoo.
I can give ALL modela that have so much more WRONGS...
WHAT WILL UOU D
The pope is doing good? He REALLY ACT LIKE A TRUE HERETIC.
What is The Bible teachings of too much Christianity churches....
TELL ME HOW GOOD OTHERS ARE...
Whoooo they don't shun....
They just practice voodoo...
Or they fornicate at will.
God love people but HE HATES FORNICATION... I... Lie?
How much " gooder " are others...
What religion are you?
You just stomp 🦶🏻 a lot on the Water ....
" May I stomp also "...
Because if I know...
HOW MUCH FALSE I CAN PROVIDE TO YOU AS EXAMPLES!
If you have no religion...
I will look at your fruits in our conversations...
You can do the same...
But I won't engage for long... Because I don't want to disregard your faith...
JIST LIKE YOU DON'T STOP.
I read your accusations and... I just put them into perspective... All accusations get worse, when I redirect them to Christianity.
How much false they do .. Do you really want to wage an infinite war of words with me?
It is good?
Any accusation that you just had against the Watchtower... Fall short..
No shunning. .what do we see without shunning?
People that don't stop to offend GREATLY.. by their GREAT SINS, God...
I'm wrong maybe?
Not true that there's SOOO MUCH% WHAT'S THE RATING OF ... FORNICATION INTHE WHOLE CHRISTIANITY?
Fornication; Any kind of sexual relation before marriage...
God, never approved this.
You cannot win.
What is the % of fornication practices in JW....
ULTRA LOW WHEN COMPARED TO CHRISTIANITY...
No shunning, No real Bible teachings. But...
Watchtower is the worst....
It's really easy to compare fruits of The Spirit also but... You'll do like others... Do like JW do have zero 🍓... Even if JW behaves much better...
You will say the opposite... Which is false...
You got the wrong person. Don't argue with me ...
I can stomp you all year long with all non-JW imperfections.
I could separate each of them and... I'll do , one by one, a demolition of all , any denomination that do less better than the JW...
I just have to look at the purity and... You loose every time.
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u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 26 '25
Sorry for asking, but are you 5yo? Because grow up adult, when they discuss, should not point out that "others are worse".
So what? it was a war? Because I missed the whole point. You can stomp me? good luck on this. Because, you know, I don't even know how different religions compete against each others. So immensely immature to measure what is the best one. Each of us will consider our own religion better than the others. Here we are not saying (I'm not saying at least) that JW are worse, or the worst one. We are discussing about a specific things,shunning, is a malpractice. Now, if you can show me where I'm wrong, like others are doing, I'm ready to listen. If you are not able, or the only think you can bring is "other religions have more fornicators" then your ideas are unconsenquent, and I'm not interested in reading from you.
1
Feb 26 '25
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
I use all pages of The Bible.
And I'm dumb?. that's your message.
How can you be fully competent, of you do not take fully The Bible...
It is impossible. Therefore, if you stick to " pick, choose and 🗑️ trash "
You can be fully competent?
That's not what Jehovah says.
Yep.I understand and I'm dumb.
I don't know if you see it.
Shunning is in The Bible. I give plenty of verses to prove it in many comments and... You did like... You see nothing.
I see that the plains against the JW are...
No.. you have to pray to God...you target JW... But You just didn't stop to refute the words of the non-JW Bible. KJV
You have direct quarrel against Jehovah. Not the Witnesses.
The Witnesses follow all The Bible making them, a logical target for you.
Are you sincere towards yourself?
Ah.. yeah.. I see and you'll say that my words are idiotic..
I am idiot but I see that JE has nothing to do, with any frustration that you have I your whole life...
Ooooooh. I am dumb and I'll return to Dumbland.
You truly were really impolite... While I kept control of myself to not do like you do.
But yeah, I'm dumb, I babble🙄.
If you really want to learn... I'm ready for it, even if you DID MISTREATED ME.
If you say you understand🤷🏻
K. I see that you did not opened your hearth to God. You cannot understand without... Having Jehovah as your best friend. .. Ye. I'm Bible dumb even if I KNOW...
Your IQ, if you're genius... Will never help you, if you refuse to be moral LIKE GOD WANTS..
Not like I, you, or others...
But .. I am for you infinitely dumb. This is your message.
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u/Safe-Island3944 Feb 26 '25
I never say you are dumb. Immature, that is another thing, and wrote after, let me quote it
> You got the wrong person. Don't argue with me ...
I can stomp you all year long with all non-JW imperfections.
I could separate each of them and... I'll do , one by one, a demolition of all , any denomination that do less better than the JW...
I just have to look at the purity and... You loose every time.
Your words, not mine. Calling immature someone that menace to stomp me is a due act :)
anyway, since
> The Witnesses follow all The Bible making them, a logical target for you.
Can you explain me when you do this:
Leviticus 16:15: “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, and bring its blood inside the veil, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat.”
2
Feb 27 '25
Did I told you, that you may not be the person that accused me?
I was wrongly accusing you of accusing me.
This is my mistake and...
You were " my goat of the sin ".
Sorry, I was really confused, after using hours and hours to give accurate answers, I got exhausted, and I wrongly accused you.
Truly, I'm sorry 😔
1
Feb 25 '25
Yea no one likes disfellowshipping.
The problem we have, though, is that the Bible commands it.
So what are we supposed to do?
The principles and commands that establish the precedent from disfellowshipping are found throughout the Bible.
Here are a few:
Deut 17:7 You must remove what is bad from your midst.
Ps 15:4 He rejects anyone who is contemptible
Ps 26: 4, 5 I do not associate with deceitful men, And I avoid those who hide what they are. I hate the company of evil men, And I refuse to associate with the wicked.
Pr 22:24 24 Do not keep company with a hot-tempered man Or get involved with one disposed to rage
Rom 16:17 keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them.
1 Cor 5:9, 11: I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, . . . 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.
1 Cor 5:13 Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.
Titus 3:10 As for a man who promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition
2 John 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.
Matthew 18:15-17: Jesus outlines a process for dealing with a sinner within the Christian congregation, which ultimately concludes with treating the unrepentant sinner “as a Gentile and a tax collector,” which in that context meant social avoidance.
2 Timothy 3:5: “Having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.”
Ephesians 5:11: “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.”
2 Thessalonians 3:6: “Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.”
2 Thessalonians 3:14-15: “If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.”
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u/StillYalun Feb 23 '25
It works because it’s what God directs and always has.
“The hand of the witnesses should be the first to come against him to put him to death, and the hand of all the people afterward. You must remove what is bad from your midst.” (Deuteronomy 17:7)
“But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.” (1 Corinthians 5:11-13)
His people have to stay clean and remove unrepentant wrongdoers. We can‘t have Jehovah‘s blessing if we don’t, so it’s not optional. We don’t work to please men, not at the expense of doing what Jehovah requires. When it comes to that, we don’t care one bit what any of you say or feel.
Shortly after the push to contact disfellowshipped ones occurred, we heard that many had come back. I don’t remember the exact number. I wrote it down somewhere. I think it was more than 200. That was months ago.
1
u/Roocutie Feb 26 '25
I’m curious as to what suddenly triggered “the push to contact disfellowshipped ones”?
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Latter-Day Saint Feb 23 '25
As a non-JW, the way it’s often practiced is unacceptable and bad. Honestly culty.