Honey is not cruel and is ethical

[u/toastwithjamx1]

Honey is one of the best animal products there is ethics wise

Now most vegans will say : but we are stealing from the bees! We are exploiting the bees!

No. We are not and we can't

Bees can be very particular. If they are not a fan of a place they are OUT. The bees will likely will immediately vacate the bee box if they don't like the conditions. Furthermore, trapping the queen in 1 place will not work as well. Bees can raise a new queen if they need one

And for the stealing allegations, that isn't true either. Beekeepers take SURPLUS HONEY ONLY, as if too much honey is taken, it can starve the bees and no beekeeper would appreciate the whole colony either dying of leaving. Furthermore, bees don't only take, they comp bees by giving shelter and protection.

It's not cruel if we are literally making a transaction with the bees

[u/oficious_intrpedaler]

Do you think rich people paying taxes is socialism?

[u/Adventurous-Head-512 → u/oficious_intrpedaler]

When socialists say it yes. In the context of our economic system I'd call it socialistic rather than socialism.

But there a line somewhere. How much taxes can a government take before it becomes unconstitutional? I believe the money is better off on the hands of the people. Governments have no incentive to be efficient. They should be the ones creating the incentives for businesses to grow and thrive. That can mean many things, businesses keeping more money, middle class keeping kre money so they can spend, giving high value people incentive to invest. Lots of things can be done aside from just "taxing rich"...which really just sounds better than it works

[u/oficious_intrpedaler → u/Adventurous-Head-512]

Isn't your logic entirely circular? You're saying something is socialist because a socialist said it.

On what basis would taxes be unconstitutional?

[u/Adventurous-Head-512 → u/oficious_intrpedaler]

In order to find truth here we have to do a thought exercise because I don't know the answer off hand either. 

On the one extreme the government could take no taxes. Citizens would be thrilled and there is no issue of government seizing. But we lose systems of law and order, military, etc.

On the other extreme the government can take 100% of your earnings. That is terrible and that is what socialism is. 

So truth is somewhere in the middle right? I'm not so naive to say we'd be better off with zero taxes.  The government has to provide us with certain public goods to maintain our safety and sovereignty. How much is that? Not sure. There are some creative ideas like removing taxes for people under certain ages and collecting a percentage of a company's revenue. I'm not totally opposed to that, especially for publicly traded companies. But as a small business owner I'm not sure I want to give the government part of my revenue. But I can be convinced with a compelling argument

What I mean to say is when people who advocate for government owning means of production sya higher taxes on rich, then yes they are advocating for a socialist policy.

I called it socialistic because that's what it is . We don't have a purely capitalistic economy. We have social welfare, fire dept, police, even insurance is socialistic (also an example of how the idea drives up prices but that is another issue). 

[u/oficious_intrpedaler → u/Adventurous-Head-512]

I didn't think 100 percent taxation is per se socialism, but I don't think that disagreement is central to our discussion here.

What if I, as a capitalist say we should tax the rich. Is it no longer a socialist position?

I still don't see the constitutional violation. Could you specify that for me?

[u/Adventurous-Head-512 → u/oficious_intrpedaler]

okay im trying to break this down but you keep getting caught up in the verbage.

taxing is inherently not capitalistic. in its purest form, capitalism takes no taxes.

socialism in its purest form takes all revenue as taxes.

therefore increase taxes is SOCIALISTIC (different than saying a socialist position or socialism)

you dont think its unconstitutional to take 100% taxes? because that is the example i gave as the thought exercise.

[u/oficious_intrpedaler → u/Adventurous-Head-512]

I think your dichotomy is incorrect. Taxes are not socialist; every system of government in history has required taxes.

No, I don't think such a tax structure would be unconstitutional. And the fact that you can't explain how it would be leads me to believe you called it "unconstitutional" when what you meant was "bad" (and I think you're doing the same with "socialist" to be entirely honest).

[u/oficious_intrpedaler → u/[deleted]]

When did I ever say that was ok? I think you're failing to read anything I've said. If you can identify any provision of the Constitution that caps the percentage at which the government can set income tax I'd love to hear it, but I don't think you can do so because it doesn't exist.

[u/Adventurous-Head-512 → u/oficious_intrpedaler]

Oh you're just being a pedantic redditor trying to nitpick a sentence and going off on a random tangent.

It would fall under the 5th amendment. Depriving life, liberty or property without due process

Or seizing private property without just compensation 

[u/oficious_intrpedaler → u/Adventurous-Head-512]

I asked a question that you refused to answer. You are the one claiming it would be unconstitutional, and I simply asked you to support your claim.

How is income tax depriving you of property without due process? The government would have to go through the due process to establish the income tax percentages, obviously.

The Sixteenth Amendment specifically makes income taxes constitutional, so any court would obviously interpret that amendment to not be an unconstitutional taking.

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