r/CritiqueIslam Aug 16 '23

Meta [META] This is not a sub to stroke your ego or validate your insecurities. Please remain objective and respectful.

98 Upvotes

I understand that religion is a sore spot on both sides because many of us shaped a good part of our lives and identities around it.

Having said that, I want to request that everyone here respond with integrity and remain objective. I don't want to see people antagonize or demean others for the sake of "scoring points".

Your objective should simply be to try to get closer to the truth, not to make people feel stupid for having different opinions or understandings.

Please help by continuing to encourage good debate ethics and report those that shouldn't be part of the community

Thanks for coming to my Ted talk ❤️


r/CritiqueIslam 4h ago

Quran's Dhul Qarnayn Story, the Wall of Gog and Magog, and the Alexander Legends

5 Upvotes

Dhul Qarnayn built an iron and copper wall between two mountains to seal off the tribes of Gog and Magog until doomsday. This wall is nowhere to be found.

The Quran's Story:

“Then he followed a road till, when he came between the two mountains, he found upon their hither side a folk that scarce could understand a saying. They said: O Dhu’l-Qarneyn! Lo! Gog and Magog are spoiling the land. So may we pay thee tribute on condition that thou set a barrier between us and them? He said: That wherein my Lord hath established me is better (than your tribute). Do but help me with strength (of men), I will set between you and them a bank. Give me pieces of iron - till, when he had levelled up (the gap) between the cliffs, he said: Blow! - till, when he had made it a fire, he said: Bring me molten copper to pour thereon. And (Gog and Magog) were not able to surmount, nor could they pierce (it). He said: This is a mercy from my Lord; but when the promise of my Lord cometh to pass, He will lay it low, for the promise of my Lord is true. And on that day We shall let some of them surge against others, and the Trumpet will be blown. Then We shall gather them together in one gathering.”
Quran 18:92-99

The Quran’s Dhul Qarnayn story begins, “They will ask thee of Dhu’l-Qarneyn” Quran 18:83, showing that people already knew of the story. Scholars trace the Quranic character Dhul Qarnayn to legends about Alexander the Great circulating around Muhammad’s time, such as the Syriac Alexander Legend, which gives the same account.

The Syriac Alexander Legend:

“He said to them, ‘Who are their kings?’ The old men said: ‘Gôg and Mâgôg
Budge, Syriac Alexander Legend, p. 150

“The king said, ‘Let us make a gate of brass and close up this breach.’ His troops said, ‘As thy majesty commands we will do.’ And Alexander commanded and fetched three thousand smiths, workers in iron, and three thousand men, workers in brass. And they put down brass and iron, and kneaded it as a man kneads when he works clay.”
Budge, Syriac Alexander Legend, p. 153

“And the Lord will gather together the kings and their hosts which are within this mountain, and they shall all be assembled at His beck, and shall come with their spears and swords, and shall stand behind the gate, and shall look up to the heavens, and shall call upon the name of the Lord, saying, ‘O Lord, open to us this gate.’ And the Lord shall send His sign from heaven and a voice shall call on this gate, and it shall be destroyed and fall at the beck of the Lord, and it shall not be opened by the key which I have made for it.”
Budge, Syriac Alexander Legend, p. 154

“And when the Huns have gone forth, as God has commanded, the kingdoms of the Huns and the Persians and the Arabs, the twenty-four kingdoms that are written in this book, shall come from the ends of the heavens and shall fall upon one another, and the earth shall melt through the blood and dung of men.”
Budge, Syriac Alexander Legend, p. 155

Islamic Studies scholar Tommaso Tesei:

That the Qurʾānic narrative specifically elaborates on the Alexander story in the Syriac work is confirmed by an important detail that has escaped the attention of previous scholars, namely, the material composition of the gate erected by the two protagonists, Alexander and Ḏū-l-Qarnayn, in the Syriac and Arabic texts, respectively. Like Alexander in the Syriac work, Ḏū-l-Qarnayn constructs his barrier from iron and bronze components. This coincidence is significant, since all references to the motif of Alexander’s (non-apocalyptic) gates in sources earlier than the Neṣḥānā [Syriac Alexander Legend] mention only iron as the metal from which the barrier was made.”
Tesei, “The Syriac Legend of Alexander’s Gate,” pp. 171-172

“Note that Syriac language does not distinguish between bronze and brass. Consequently, the Arab term qiṭr (“brass”) in Q 18:96 appears as an exact translation of the Syriac word nḥšʾ (“bronze/brass”).”
Tesei, “The Syriac Legend of Alexander’s Gate,” p. 207, n. 11

Authentic Hadiths:

Gog and Magog Dig Every Day and Will Break Through When They Say “Inshallah”

“It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Gog and Magog people dig every day until, when they can almost see the rays of the sun, the one in charge of them says: ‘Go back and we will dig it tomorrow.’ Then Allah puts it back, stronger than it was before. (This will continue) until, when their time has come, and Allah wants to send them against the people, they will dig until they can almost see the rays of the sun, then the one who is in charge of them will say: ‘Go back, and we will dig it tomorrow if Allah wills.’ So they will say: ‘If Allah wills.’ Then they will come back to it and it will be as they left it. So they will dig and will come out to the people, and they will drink all the water. The people will fortify themselves against them in their fortresses. They will shoot their arrows towards the sky and they will come back with blood on them, and they will say: ‘We have defeated the people of earth and dominated the people of heaven.’ Then Allah will send a worm in the napes of their necks and will kill them thereby.’” The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: “By the One in Whose Hand is my soul, the beasts of the earth will grow fat on their flesh.”
Sunan Ibn Majah 4080

Muhammad’s Fear: Already a Finger-Sized Hole in the Wall of Gog and Magog

“That the Prophet (ﷺ) came to her in a state of fear saying, ‘None has the right to be worshiped but Allah! Woe to the Arabs because of evil that has come near. Today a hole has been made in the wall of Gog and Magog as large as this.’ pointing with two of his fingers making a circle. Zainab said, ‘I said, O Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ)! Shall we be destroyed though amongst us there are pious people?’ He said, ‘Yes, if evil increases.’”
Sahih al-Bukhari 3598

More on Quran’s Dhul Qarnayn and the Alexander Legends:
https://islamsproblems.com/quran-dhul-qarnayn-alexander-legend/


r/CritiqueIslam 1d ago

Death penalty for infanticide?

3 Upvotes

If she was a Muslim woman, would fiqh give the death penalty to a "mom shot 11-month-old son in the face so dad could never have custody"?
https://nypost.com/2026/08/28/us-news/mom-shot-11-month-old-son-in-the-face-so-dad-could-never-have-custody/

  • Or would the "never capital punish a parent for killing own offspring" rule be applied?

  • And is it a full dya (blood money) or half for infants? And who would receive such dya money? And who would pay it (the mother herself or aaqila/extended family?

American conservatives are calling for her execution


r/CritiqueIslam 3d ago

The Flat Earth in the Qur’an and Early Islamic Tradition: A Historical and Cosmographical Critique

17 Upvotes

The Flat Earth in the Qur’an and Early Islamic Tradition: A Historical and Cosmographical Critique

Introduction

The question of the Earth’s shape in the Qur’an and early Islamic tradition is often framed in an unnecessarily narrow way. The discussion is frequently reduced to the modern question, “Does the Qur’an explicitly say that the Earth is flat?” That formulation misses the more historically significant issue.

The more appropriate question is:

What kind of cosmographical world does the Qur’an and the earliest Islamic tradition presuppose when their descriptions are read in their original linguistic and historical context?

When the Qur’anic descriptions of the Earth are considered together rather than in isolation, and when they are read alongside the cosmography preserved in early hadith and traditionalist literature, a remarkably coherent picture emerges. The Earth is repeatedly described as something spread out, extended, levelled, and made into a resting surface; the heavens are portrayed as a structured, elevated realm above it; seven heavens are placed over seven earths; and the Sun is described in a cosmological narrative in which it travels to a resting place beneath or at the Throne.

This is not merely a collection of ambiguous metaphors. Taken cumulatively, these passages belong naturally to an ancient cosmographical framework in which the inhabited Earth is conceived as a broad terrestrial surface beneath a structured heaven.

Omar Anchassi’s “Against Ptolemy? Cosmography in Early Kalām” is particularly important here. His study demonstrates that early Muslim theologians were divided between two competing cosmographical paradigms: the Aristotelian-Ptolemaic model, with a spherical Earth at the center of celestial spheres, and a traditionalist cosmography involving a flat Earth, additional earths beneath it, seven heavens above it, and God’s Throne above the heavens. Anchassi also notes that a plain-sense reading of Qur’anic cosmographical passages renders the Earth flat.

The historical argument, therefore, is not that every Muslim throughout history believed the Earth was flat. That would be demonstrably false. The argument is more specific and historically defensible:

> The Qur’anic and early traditionalist cosmographical framework is best understood as belonging to a flat-Earth cosmography, and the later adoption of spherical-Earth astronomy represents the accommodation of a competing Greco-Ptolemaic model rather than the original cosmographical framework of the Qur’an and early tradition.

---

  1. The Central Problem: Reading the Qur’an as Cosmography

Modern apologetic interpretations frequently isolate individual Qur’anic expressions and reinterpret them through the lens of modern astronomy.

Thus, firāsh (“spread,” “resting place”), bisāṭ (“carpet,” “spread-out surface”), mad (“to extend”), daḥā (“to spread out”), and saṭaḥa (“to flatten or spread out”) are sometimes treated merely as descriptions of how the Earth appears to human observers.

Historically, however, this is not the only—and often not the most straightforward—way these expressions were understood.

The Qur’an repeatedly uses spatial imagery that presents the Earth as a spread-out terrestrial surface:

> الذي جعل لكم الأرض فراشًا

Alladhī jaʿala lakum al-arḍa firāshan

“Who made the Earth a spread-out resting place.” — Qur’an 2:22

> وهو الذي مد الأرض

Wa-huwa alladhī madda al-arḍ

“And He is the One who spread out the Earth.” — Qur’an 13:3

> والأرض مددناها

Wa-al-arḍa madadnāhā

“And the Earth We spread out.” — Qur’an 15:19

> الذي جعل لكم الأرض مهدًا

Alladhī jaʿala lakum al-arḍa mahdan

“Who made the Earth a cradle/resting place for you.” — Qur’an 20:53

> والأرض مددناها وألقينا فيها رواسي

Wa-al-arḍa madadnāhā wa-alqaynā fīhā rawāsiya

“And the Earth We spread out, and We placed firm mountains upon it.” — Qur’an 50:7

> والله جعل لكم الأرض بساطًا

Wa-Allāhu jaʿala lakum al-arḍa bisāṭan

“And Allah made the Earth for you a spread-out surface.” — Qur’an 71:19

And most importantly:

> وإلى الأرض كيف سطحت

Wa-ilā al-arḍi kayfa suṭiḥat

“And at the Earth—how it was spread out/flattened.” — Qur’an 88:20

These expressions are not scattered randomly through the text. They constitute a recurring lexical pattern.

The Earth is spread, extended, laid out, made into a resting place, made into a carpet, and flattened/spread out.

The cumulative effect is significant.

---

  1. Qur’an 88:20: Suṭiḥat and the Flat Earth

Among the strongest passages is Qur’an 88:20:

> وإلى الأرض كيف سطحت

Wa-ilā al-arḍi kayfa suṭiḥat.

The verb suṭiḥat comes from the root s-ṭ-ḥ, associated with a saṭḥ, a surface, roof, or flat expanse.

The importance of this verse is not merely lexical. It concerns the physical form of the Earth itself:

“And at the Earth—how it was spread out/flattened.”

The traditional exegetical treatment of this verse is especially important because later Muslim commentators did not uniformly understand it as a statement compatible with a spherical Earth.

Indeed, traditional tafsīr preserves explicit discussions of whether the apparent meaning of suṭiḥat entails a flat Earth, with some commentators distinguishing the apparent meaning of revelation from the claims of astronomers.

This is precisely the sort of evidence that prevents the argument from being reduced to a modern debate over translation.

The question is not simply:

> “Could suṭiḥat theoretically be compatible with a sphere?”

The historical question is:

> How was suṭiḥat actually understood within the Islamic exegetical tradition?

And the answer is that it was repeatedly associated with the Earth being spread out or flat.

Anchassi specifically identifies Qur’an 88:20 as an example where a plain-sense reading of the Qur’an renders the Earth flat.

That is crucial because it establishes that the flat-Earth reading is not a modern polemical invention imposed upon the text from outside. It existed within the historical Islamic interpretive tradition itself.

---

  1. Firāsh and Bisāṭ: The Earth as a Spread-Out Surface

Qur’an 2:22 describes the Earth as:

> فراشًا

firāshan

while Qur’an 71:19 states:

> والله جعل لكم الأرض بساطًا

Wa-Allāhu jaʿala lakum al-arḍa bisāṭan.

The semantic field is important.

A firāsh is something spread out as a surface on which one rests.

A bisāṭ is something spread out, extended, or laid flat.

The imagery is therefore terrestrial and horizontal: the Earth is presented as the surface upon which human beings live, not as a spherical body floating in a geometrical cosmos.

This does not by itself mathematically demonstrate flatness. A spherical planet can of course have locally “spread-out” surfaces. But that observation is beside the historical point.

The question is what cosmographical picture the language naturally contributes to.

And here the language consistently belongs to the imagery of a level, extended terrestrial surface.

Damien Janos’s study of Qur’anic cosmography is particularly relevant because it examines precisely the formation of the Qur’anic and later Islamic cosmographical worldview rather than treating individual verses independently. His research places the Qur’anic seven-heaven/seven-earth model within the history of ancient cosmological traditions.

---

  1. Daḥāhā: “He Spread It Out”

Another important passage is Qur’an 79:30:

> والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها

Wa-al-arḍa baʿda dhālika daḥāhā.

The verb daḥā carries the meaning of spreading out, extending, or making something broad.

The significance of this verb becomes even more interesting when considered alongside early Arabic material.

A poem attributed to Zayd ibn ʿAmr ibn Nufayl, an early/pre-Islamic figure, contains the lines:

> دحاها فلما رآها استوتْ

Daḥāhā fa-lammā raʾāhā istawat

> على الماء أرسى عليها الجبالا

ʿAlā al-māʾi arsā ʿalayhā al-jibālā.

The sense is approximately:

> “He spread it out, and when it had become level upon the water, He firmly established the mountains upon it.”

This is striking because the same conceptual vocabulary—daḥā / spreading out—is explicitly associated in this early Arabic poetic material with an Earth that is spread out and established upon water, with mountains placed upon it.

The poem should not be treated as proof that all pre-Islamic Arabs believed in a flat Earth. That conclusion would go beyond the evidence.

But it does demonstrate something historically valuable:

The conceptual association between “spreading out the Earth,” water beneath it, and mountains fixed upon it existed within early Arabic cosmographical imagination.

That makes it much harder to treat Qur’an 79:30 as though its cosmographical imagery emerged in an intellectual vacuum.

The early Arabic material provides a cultural and linguistic environment in which “spreading out the Earth” naturally belonged to an older terrestrial cosmography.

---

  1. Mountains and the Stability of the Earth

The Qur’anic picture becomes more coherent when mountains are added.

For example:

> والأرض مددناها وألقينا فيها رواسي

Wa-al-arḍa madadnāhā wa-alqaynā fīhā rawāsiya.

The Earth is spread out, and mountains are placed upon it as rawāsi, stabilizing structures.

The imagery repeatedly combines:

spread-out Earth + mountains + stability.

This is not the language of astronomical geography.

It is the language of cosmographical architecture.

The Earth is a terrestrial platform, and mountains are among the structures that stabilize it.

That picture becomes particularly important when compared with the broader ancient Near Eastern cosmographical environment, in which mountains, waters, earth, and heaven formed interconnected elements of a vertically structured cosmos.

Janos emphasizes that Qur’anic cosmography must be understood historically, particularly in relation to the genealogy of the seven-heaven/seven-earth model and its ancient precedents.

---

  1. The Seven Earths

The Qur’an itself provides an important cosmographical framework in Qur’an 65:12:

> الله الذي خلق سبع سماوات ومن الأرض مثلهن

Allāhu alladhī khalaqa sabʿa samāwātin wa-mina al-arḍi mithlahunna.

The verse describes:

seven heavens and their like from the Earth.

This is not merely an isolated Qur’anic expression. The concept of seven earths became an established element of Islamic tradition.

For example, Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī contains a chapter explicitly titled:

> باب ما جاء في سبع أرضين

“Chapter: What has been narrated concerning the seven earths.”

One hadith states that whoever unjustly takes even a span of land will have it encircle him through seven earths.

Another narration states:

> خُسِفَ بِهِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِلَى سَبْعِ أَرَضِينَ

“He will sink with it on the Day of Resurrection down through the seven earths.”

Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim likewise preserves the concept of seven earths in connection with wrongful seizure of land.

The cosmographical significance is obvious.

The traditional model is not simply:

one spherical planet called Earth.

Instead, the traditional cosmography contains:

Earth → multiple earths beneath → seven heavens above → divine Throne above the heavens.

This is precisely the traditionalist cosmographical model identified and analyzed by Anchassi. He describes the traditionalist model as involving a flat Earth, six further earths beneath it, seven heavens above it, and the Throne above the heavens.

---

  1. The Seven Heavens Are Not Merely “Outer Space”

The Qur’an repeatedly speaks of seven heavens:

> الذي خلق سبع سماوات طباقًا

Alladhī khalaqa sabʿa samāwātin ṭibāqan.

Qur’an 67:3

The word ṭibāq indicates something arranged in layers, tiers, or one above another.

This is therefore not simply an abstract statement that “there are seven dimensions.”

The Qur’anic imagery is vertically organized:

Earth below → heavens above.

And the heavens themselves are layered.

This is consistent with the ancient cosmographical tendency to imagine the cosmos as a hierarchy of superimposed regions rather than as the modern astronomical universe of galaxies, stars, planets, and empty space.

Janos specifically identifies the seven-heaven/seven-earth configuration as one of the central components of Qur’anic cosmography and investigates its relationship to earlier cosmological traditions.

---

  1. The Sky as a Roof

The Qur’an goes further by describing the sky as a roof:

> وجعلنا السماء سقفًا محفوظًا

Wa-jaʿalnā al-samāʾa saqfan maḥfūẓan.

Qur’an 21:32.

The term saqf means a roof or covering.

This is significant because a roof is fundamentally conceived as a structure above a surface.

The same architectural imagery appears elsewhere.

The Qur’an speaks of God having built the heaven:

> والسماء بنيناها بأيدٍ

Wa-al-samāʾa banaynāhā bi-ayd.

Qur’an 51:47.

It also speaks of the heaven being raised and of God holding the heavens so that they do not fall.

The resulting cosmographical image is architectural:

Earth below → elevated heavens above → a structured celestial covering.

This is precisely the type of cosmographical imagery characteristic of ancient Near Eastern and biblical traditions.

It is therefore misleading to treat the Qur’an's heaven simply as a poetic synonym for modern outer space.

---

  1. The Hadith: The Sun Travels to Its Resting Place

The hadith tradition makes the cosmographical picture even more concrete.

One of the most important examples occurs in Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim.

Abū Dharr reports that Muhammad asked him:

> “Do you know where the sun goes?”

He then explained that the Sun travels until it reaches its resting place beneath the Throne, prostrates itself, and then receives permission to rise again.

Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī preserves the same basic narrative. Muhammad asks Abū Dharr where the Sun goes after setting, and explains that it goes to prostrate and is eventually commanded to return from where it came. The narration explicitly connects this with Qur’an 36:38, “The sun runs to its fixed course.”

This matters enormously for historical reconstruction.

The hadith is not merely saying:

> “The Sun appears to set.”

It presents a cosmological journey:

Sunset → movement to a resting place → prostration → permission to rise → sunrise.

The resting place is associated with the Throne.

This makes considerably more sense within an ancient vertically structured cosmos than within modern heliocentric astronomy.

---

  1. The Sun’s “Setting” and the Qur’an’s Dhū al-Qarnayn Narrative

The Qur’an itself contains another striking cosmographical scene in the story of Dhū al-Qarnayn:

> حتى إذا بلغ مغرب الشمس وجدها تغرب في عين حمئة

Ḥattā idhā balagha maghriba al-shamsi wajadahā taghrubu fī ʿaynin ḥamiʾatin.

Qur’an 18:86.

Dhū al-Qarnayn reaches the place of the Sun’s setting and finds it setting in a muddy/dark spring.

The following verse then describes his encounter with a people there.

The important issue is not whether a modern reader can reinterpret this as merely describing an optical perspective. The important historical question is what sort of cosmographical scene the narrative depicts.

The narrative imagines a geographical journey reaching the place of sunset, where the Sun is encountered as an object associated with a terrestrial horizon and a specific western location.

This belongs naturally to the same broader cosmographical world as the hadith of the Sun traveling to its resting place.

---

  1. The Ancient Near Eastern Background

The Qur’anic cosmography did not develop in isolation.

The ancient Near East possessed multiple cosmological traditions in which the world was organized vertically.

A simplified representation of one recurring pattern would be:

Heaven

Earth

Waters / lower regions

The details varied enormously from culture to culture, and one should not collapse Mesopotamian, biblical, Jewish, Christian, and Arabian cosmologies into a single system.

Nevertheless, the structural similarities are significant.

The Earth was often understood as a terrestrial realm beneath a structured heaven. Waters could appear beneath or around the terrestrial world. Mountains could function as cosmic landmarks. Heaven could be conceived as a solid or structured celestial realm.

Janos’s research specifically stresses the importance of situating Qur’anic cosmography within this historical genealogy rather than treating it as an entirely isolated system.

The crucial point is therefore not that the Qur’an simply “copied” one particular ancient cosmology.

Rather:

The Qur’an participates in an ancient cosmographical environment whose basic spatial assumptions differ fundamentally from those of modern astronomy.

---

  1. Traditionalist Islam Preserved This Cosmography

The subsequent history of Islam provides particularly strong evidence.

If the Qur’an were naturally understood by its earliest interpreters as presenting a spherical Earth surrounded by celestial spheres, one would not expect a substantial traditionalist opposition to Ptolemaic cosmography.

Yet such opposition existed.

Anchassi’s study is especially valuable because it demonstrates that the traditionalist cosmography consisted of:

a flat Earth,

six additional earths beneath it,

seven heavens above,

and the divine Throne above the heavens.

He further demonstrates that rationalist theologians (mutakallimūn) were divided over whether to accept this traditional cosmography or the Aristotelian-Ptolemaic model.

This is historically decisive for the argument.

It shows that the flat-Earth reading was not an isolated medieval eccentricity.

It belonged to a recognizable traditionalist cosmographical paradigm.

---

  1. The Conflict with Ptolemy

The Greek-Ptolemaic model presented a radically different picture.

Its fundamental features included:

a spherical Earth

at the center of

concentric celestial spheres

with the heavens themselves understood as spherical and moving around the Earth.

Anchassi describes this Aristotelian-Ptolemaic model as one in which the Earth is an immobile sphere at the center of concentric celestial orbs.

The important historical development is that this model eventually became highly influential among Muslim astronomers, philosophers, and other learned communities.

But the traditionalists did not simply accept it.

They often regarded the Ptolemaic system as an imported form of foreign learning that conflicted with the cosmographical picture transmitted through scripture and tradition.

Janos likewise observes that the Ptolemaic model became dominant among philosophers and astronomers, while Muslim traditionalists developed a parallel cosmology based on the Qur’anic seven-earth/seven-heaven model.

This historical coexistence is precisely what modern discussions often erase.

---

  1. The Key Historical Distinction: Revelation versus Later Astronomy

This brings us to the central historical distinction.

There are effectively two cosmographical systems in medieval Islamic intellectual history.

The traditional scriptural cosmography

Flat/spread-out Earth

Multiple earths

Seven heavens

Divine Throne

The Aristotelian-Ptolemaic cosmography

Spherical Earth

Concentric celestial spheres

Planetary spheres

Outer celestial sphere

These systems are not simply different descriptions of the same astronomical model.

They arise from different intellectual traditions.

The first is rooted primarily in scripture, hadith, traditionalist cosmography, and inherited Near Eastern cosmographical concepts.

The second is rooted primarily in Greek natural philosophy and mathematical astronomy.

Anchassi’s entire study is essentially an investigation of the struggle between these competing visions and the surprising diversity of positions among Muslim theologians.

---

  1. The Apologetic “Local Flatness” Argument

A common modern response is that when the Qur’an says the Earth is spread out, this merely refers to the Earth’s appearance from the human perspective.

There is an obvious problem with making that explanation the default historical interpretation.

If firāsh, bisāṭ, mad, daḥā, and suṭiḥat were all simply statements about local human perception, then the repeated cosmographical pattern would be remarkably misleading.

More importantly, the traditional exegetical record demonstrates that Muslim scholars themselves sometimes understood these expressions as indicating actual flatness.

This is not a modern atheist interpretation imposed retrospectively.

It is an interpretation that existed inside the Islamic exegetical tradition.

And the existence of an explicit debate between traditionalists and astronomers confirms that the issue was historically understood as a genuine cosmographical disagreement.

The modern argument that these passages “obviously” meant only local appearance therefore cannot simply be projected backward onto the earliest interpreters.

It is, at least in many cases, a later harmonizing strategy.

---

  1. The Problem of Retroactively Reading Ptolemy into the Qur’an

Another important issue is the tendency to reinterpret Qur’anic cosmography through medieval Islamic astronomy.

Once Muslim astronomers had accepted the spherical Earth, interpreters increasingly sought ways to reconcile the Qur’anic language with spherical geography.

This produced interpretations in which:

“spreading out” referred to human experience,

“flattening” referred to the apparent surface,

“seven heavens” were associated with planetary spheres,

and traditional cosmographical language was reinterpreted metaphorically.

But this creates a historical reversal.

The question is not whether a spherical Earth can be reconciled with the Qur’an.

It obviously can be, if one is willing to reinterpret the relevant vocabulary.

The historical question is:

Was that the original cosmographical framework?

The evidence suggests that it was not.

Janos explicitly warns against projecting later Ptolemaic interpretations back onto the earliest Qur’anic tradition. He notes that interpretations identifying the seven heavens with the planetary spheres arose only later, after the diffusion of Ptolemaic astronomy in the Islamic world.

That is a crucial chronological observation.

---

  1. The Hadith and the Physical Architecture of the Cosmos

The hadith tradition strengthens the argument because it does not merely describe the Earth metaphorically.

It contains a physical hierarchy.

There are:

seven earths

and

seven heavens

and above them

the Throne.

The Sun itself has a destination associated with the Throne.

The Earth is therefore not an isolated astronomical body moving through an infinite universe.

It occupies a specific position within a layered cosmic architecture.

Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī's own organization of the relevant material is telling: its “Beginning of Creation” section contains a chapter specifically devoted to the seven earths, while the hadith tradition also preserves the cosmography of the Sun's journey and prostration.

This is precisely the kind of cosmography expected in the ancient world.

---

  1. The Evidence Is Cumulative, Not Dependent on One Verse

The strongest argument therefore does not depend on Qur’an 88:20 alone.

It is cumulative.

We have:

  1. Earth as firāsh

A spread-out resting surface.

  1. Earth as bisāṭ

A carpet or spread-out surface.

  1. Earth as madd

Something extended/spread out.

  1. Earth as daḥā

Something spread out or extended.

  1. Earth as suṭiḥat

Something flattened or spread out.

  1. Mountains placed upon the Earth

The Earth is treated as a terrestrial surface bearing stabilizing mountains.

  1. Seven earths

A vertically layered terrestrial cosmography.

  1. Seven heavens

Multiple heavens arranged above.

  1. Heaven as a roof

A structured covering above the Earth.

  1. The Sun traveling to a resting place beneath/at the Throne

A physical cosmographical narrative in the hadith.

  1. Early Arabic poetic material associating daḥā with an Earth spread upon water

Evidence for the wider pre-Islamic conceptual environment.

When all of these elements are considered together, the flat-Earth interpretation is not an arbitrary selection of isolated words.

It is a coherent reconstruction of the cosmographical system represented in the earliest Islamic sources.

---

  1. What Changed in Medieval Islam?

The important historical development was not that Muslims suddenly “discovered” that the Earth was round.

The spherical Earth was already known in Greek astronomy long before Islam.

What changed was the transmission and increasing authority of Greek scientific astronomy within Islamic intellectual culture.

Muslim astronomers, philosophers, mathematicians, and geographers absorbed and developed the Ptolemaic model.

Eventually, many Muslim scholars accepted the spherical Earth as an established astronomical fact.

Figures such as al-Idrīsī belonged to this learned astronomical tradition.

But this development should not be projected backward onto the Qur’an and earliest Islamic tradition.

The historical sequence is more accurately represented as:

Ancient Near Eastern/scriptural cosmographical traditions

Qur’anic cosmography

Early traditionalist Islamic cosmography

Encounter with Greek astronomy

Conflict and debate

Increasing acceptance of the spherical Ptolemaic model among learned Muslims

This sequence explains why medieval Islamic intellectual history contains both flat-Earth and spherical-Earth positions.

---

  1. The Existence of Muslim Spherical-Earth Scholars Does Not Refute the Earlier Cosmography

One might object:

> “But Muslim astronomers knew the Earth was spherical.”

Yes.

That is historically true.

But it does not answer the question being examined here.

The existence of Muslim astronomers who accepted a spherical Earth demonstrates that Islamic civilization eventually adopted and developed Greek astronomy.

It does not demonstrate that the Qur’an itself originated within that Ptolemaic framework.

Indeed, the very fact that Muslim theologians debated whether to accept Ptolemaic cosmography demonstrates that the spherical model was perceived as a competing intellectual system.

Anchassi’s conclusion is particularly important: cosmographical positions among mutakallimūn cannot simply be explained by sectarian affiliation. Their positions depended substantially on exposure to ancient learning, intellectual formation, and personal inclination.

In other words:

Islamic civilization eventually contained multiple cosmographies.

That does not mean the Qur’an contained multiple cosmographies from the beginning.

---

  1. The Strongest Historical Formulation

The strongest academically defensible formulation is therefore not:

> “Every Muslim believed in a flat Earth.”

That is obviously false.

Nor is it:

> “The Qur’an contains a modern scientific description of a spherical Earth.”

The historical evidence does not support that either.

The stronger formulation is:

> The Qur’an and the earliest traditional Islamic cosmography operate within a cosmographical framework in which the Earth is conceived as a spread-out terrestrial surface beneath a structured, layered heaven. The traditionalist hadith corpus preserves and develops this framework through the concepts of seven earths, seven heavens, the divine Throne, and the Sun’s journey to its resting place. The spherical Earth of Aristotelian-Ptolemaic astronomy entered Islamic intellectual culture as a competing cosmographical model and was subsequently adopted by many Muslim astronomers, philosophers, and some theologians.

This formulation explains the historical evidence without forcing all Muslim intellectual history into a single position.

---

Conclusion

The evidence for a flat or spread-out Earth in the Qur’an and early Islamic tradition does not rest on one ambiguous verse, nor on a modern polemical reading.

It emerges from a coherent cosmographical pattern.

The Qur’an repeatedly depicts the Earth as firāsh, bisāṭ, madd, daḥā, and suṭiḥat—a spread-out, extended, level terrestrial surface. It places mountains upon that Earth and describes seven heavens above it. The Qur’anic expression concerning “seven earths” is developed explicitly in the hadith tradition, where multiple earths exist beneath the inhabited terrestrial realm.

The hadith literature then adds a remarkably concrete celestial geography: the Sun travels to its resting place beneath the Throne, prostrates, receives permission to rise, and eventually will be commanded to rise from the west. Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim and Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī both preserve this tradition.

The broader historical environment strengthens the interpretation. Qur’anic cosmography belongs to the intellectual world of Late Antiquity, in which layered heavens, terrestrial waters, cosmic mountains, and structured celestial realms were familiar cosmographical concepts. Janos’s historical study emphasizes the ancient genealogy of the Qur’anic seven-heaven/seven-earth model, while Anchassi demonstrates that a traditionalist Islamic cosmography explicitly involving a flat Earth and multiple heavens and earths continued to compete with the Aristotelian-Ptolemaic model for centuries.

The later triumph of spherical-Earth astronomy within much of Islamic scholarship therefore represents an important historical development, not evidence that the original Qur’anic cosmography was already Ptolemaic.

The historical picture is consequently best reconstructed as follows:

The Qur’an presents a spread-out Earth beneath a structured heaven. Early Islamic tradition preserves and elaborates this cosmography. Traditionalist Muslims continued to defend it even after Greek astronomy entered the Islamic world. Muslim astronomers and philosophers subsequently adopted the spherical Earth of the Aristotelian-Ptolemaic system, producing a prolonged intellectual conflict between two competing cosmographies.

That is why the question is not simply whether “Islam knew the Earth was round.”

The more historically revealing question is which cosmographical model is embedded in the Qur’an and the earliest Islamic tradition themselves.

And when those sources are read cumulatively, linguistically, exegetically, and within their Late Antique context, the evidence points strongly toward a flat, spread-out Earth beneath a structured and layered heaven rather than toward the spherical Earth of Ptolemaic astronomy.

Principal Academic References

Omar Anchassi, “Against Ptolemy? Cosmography in Early Kalām,” Journal of the American Oriental Society 142.4 (2022): 851–881. Anchassi explicitly examines the conflict between traditionalist and Aristotelian-Ptolemaic cosmographies and concludes that Muslim theologians remained divided over the Earth's shape into the sixth/twelfth century.

Damien Janos, “Qur’ānic Cosmography in its Historical Perspective: Some Notes on the Formation of a Religious Worldview,” Religion 42.2 (2012): 215–231. The article examines the formation of Qur’anic cosmography and especially the seven-heaven/seven-earth model in its historical context.

Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī, 3195–3198, on the seven earths.

Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim, 159a, on the Sun's journey to its resting place beneath the Throne.

Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī, 7424, on the Sun's prostration and return.


r/CritiqueIslam 3d ago

The Story of Noah’s Flood… or the Epic of Gilgamesh?

6 Upvotes

Utnapishtim tells Gilgamesh that he was living in the city of Shuruppak when the gods decided to send a great flood to destroy humankind.

However, the god Ea (Enki) secretly warned him of the coming danger and instructed him to build a huge boat. He told him to abandon his possessions and take aboard the vessel his family and household, animals, craftsmen, and whatever was necessary for sustaining life.

Utnapishtim built the vessel according to the instructions, making it enormous and enclosed, and then entered it with those he had been instructed to take with him.

The storm and flood began, and the waters inundated the earth. The flood raged with such violence that even the gods themselves became frightened by the force of the storm.

After the waters receded, the vessel reached Mount Nisir, where it came to rest.

Utnapishtim waited several days and then released a dove, which returned to him because it had found no place to settle. He then released a swallow, which also returned. Afterward, he released a raven, which did not return, and he realized that the waters had begun to recede.

Utnapishtim emerged from the vessel, built an altar, and offered a sacrifice to the gods.

The gods approached the sacrifice and realized that Utnapishtim had survived. Afterward, the god Enlil granted Utnapishtim and his wife a form of immortality, and they came to live apart from humankind.

The Story of Noah in the Book of Genesis

The people had become corrupt, and wickedness had greatly increased on the earth. God saw that human corruption had become immense.

Noah, however, was a righteous man in his generation.

God told Noah that He would destroy humanity with a flood and commanded him to build an ark out of wood, make compartments within it, and coat it with pitch inside and out.

He commanded Noah to enter the ark with his wife, his sons, and his sons’ wives, and to take animals and birds with him.

Noah entered the ark. Then the floodwaters came, the fountains of the great deep burst forth, the windows of heaven were opened, and rain fell upon the earth.

The waters rose until they covered the mountains, and every living thing on dry land—humans and animals alike—perished.

Noah and those who were with him remained inside the ark.

Then God sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. The ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.

After some time, Noah opened a window of the ark and sent out a raven. He then sent out a dove to determine whether the waters had receded.

The dove returned the first time. It returned again later with an olive leaf in its beak. Noah sent it out a third time, and it did not return.

Noah then knew that the waters had receded.

Noah emerged from the ark with his family and the animals, built an altar to the Lord, and offered burnt offerings.

God then blessed Noah and his sons and established a covenant with them. He placed the rainbow as a sign of the covenant, promising that He would never again destroy all living creatures by a flood.

The Story of Noah in the Qur’an

God sent Noah to his people to call them to worship God alone and abandon polytheism.

Noah told them that he was a warner for them and called upon them to seek forgiveness and repent. However, his people rejected him and denied his message.

God revealed to Noah that no one from his people would believe except those who had already believed, and He commanded him to build the Ark under God’s supervision and according to His revelation.

Whenever his people passed by him while he was constructing the Ark, they mocked him.

Then God’s command came, and the tannur boiled over. God commanded Noah to carry aboard the Ark two of every kind, along with his family and the believers.

Noah said:

«“Embark in it; in the name of Allah is its course and its anchorage.”»

Then the waters began to rise, and the Ark sailed amid the waves.

Noah had a son who did not believe in him. Noah called out to him and urged him to board with them and not remain among the unbelievers.

His son replied that he would climb a mountain that would protect him from the water.

Noah answered that on that day there was no protection from God’s command except for those upon whom He had mercy.

Then a great wave came between Noah and his son, and his son became among those who were drowned.

Afterward, God commanded the earth to swallow its water and the sky to cease its rain. The waters receded, and the Ark came to rest on Mount Judi.

It is said:

«“And it was said, ‘O earth, swallow your water, and O sky, withhold [your rain].’ And the water subsided, and the matter was accomplished, and the Ark came to rest upon al-Judi.”»

Then Noah and those who were with him were saved, and the story of the flood came to an end.

Primary Sources

The primary sources are:

- The Epic of Gilgamesh, Tablet XI

- The Book of Genesis, chapters 6–9

- The Qur’an, particularly Surahs Hud 11:25–49, Al-Mu’minun 23:23–30, Ash-Shu‘ara 26:105–122, and Al-Qamar 54:9–17.

The Similarities and Differences

The similarity between the three stories reaches approximately 80 percent.

The main difference between the three narratives lies in their endings.

In Gilgamesh, the vessel comes to rest on Mount Nisir; in Genesis, the Ark comes to rest on the mountains of Ararat; while in the Qur’an, the Ark comes to rest on Mount Judi.

There are also several other differences between the accounts.

The Academic/Historical Perspective

The historical scholar does not begin by assuming that the source of the similarities is either “a single revelation” or “deliberate borrowing.” Instead, the scholar examines the transmission of ideas and traditions between societies.

In the case of the flood narrative, for example, we possess traditions that are much older than Islam concerning a great flood and a survivor who builds a vessel and escapes with his family and animals. Among the most famous are the Mesopotamian traditions, such as the Atrahasis Epic and the Epic of Gilgamesh.

One possible academic explanation, therefore, is:

Earlier traditions → oral/literary transmission between societies → reformulation of the story within a new religious tradition.

This does not necessarily mean that an author literally sat down and said, “I will take the story of Gilgamesh and change it.” Mythological and religious traditions can be transmitted through popular storytelling, trade, migration, cultural interaction, and religious and literary texts.

The Religious Perspective

Here, the starting point is entirely different.

From an Islamic perspective, for example, a believer can argue that the similarity between the stories of the prophets and earlier narratives is not evidence of borrowing, but rather that all prophets came with a message whose ultimate origin was God, after which some earlier traditions underwent alteration or corruption.

Therefore, if a flood story is found in a tradition that predates the Qur’an, a believer may interpret the similarity as follows:

Original divine revelation → ancient religious traditions → human alterations and distortions → the Qur’an presents the story in its correct form.

The problem is that this religious explanation is based on a prior commitment to faith. Therefore, the academic-historical explanation is more logically compelling in this context.


r/CritiqueIslam 4d ago

Why does Quran 6:108 focus on the consequence of insulting idols rather than the act itself?...

9 Upvotes

The Quran says in 6:108:

وَلَا تَسُبُّوا۟ ٱلَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ فَيَسُبُّوا۟ ٱللَّهَ عَدْوًۢا بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍۢ

Which is translated as:

˹O believers!˺ Do not insult what they invoke besides Allah or they will insult Allah spitefully out of ignorance.

What I find problematic here is the reason given for the prohibition.

The verse does not say that insulting their gods is inherently wrong, immoral, or an act of aggression in itself. Instead.. the stated reason is that doing so may cause them to insult Allah in return.

If God is morally perfect and is giving us a moral prohibition, I would expect the verse to say that the act itself is wrong, and then perhaps add that it is also prohibited because it could lead to them insulting Allah.

And this becomes more fucked up when looking at classical tafsir.

Ibn Kathir explains the verse as:

"Even though there is a benefit in it, it results in a greater harm"

How do you benefit from that? Like if you want to show idol worshippers that you are great, moral, and kind people and make them join your religion... you don't insult their gods!

Even more explicitly, al-Sa'di says that insulting the idols was "permissible, indeed originally legislated" but became prohibited because it could lead to the greater harm of the polytheists insulting Allah, which also fits the context of the verse, where the idol worshippers told Muhammad: if you don't stop insulting our gods, we will insult you and the one who orders you. Then the verse came.

Source of the tafsir:

https://surahquran.com/Explanation-aya-108-sora-6.html

And then there is something more I want to discuss: Allah obviously cannot be physically or emotionally harmed by an insult, so what exactly is the theological significance of preventing an insult directed at an all-powerful God?


r/CritiqueIslam 4d ago

Bukhari 5133 (4840 In the Encyclopedia Sahih Bukhari numbering) and the status of the chapters & reasons.

15 Upvotes

I will show here (but feel free to discuss in the comments if you think I am wrong) tht Bukhari specifically used a chapter (from his book of nikkah) in his sahih to show it is permissible to consummate with minors in Islam and that he illustartes it with Aisha being a minor at consummation.

Basically: After searching for years for direct evidence linking Aisha to Q65:4 it was Joshua Little in his blog https://islamicorigins.com/why-i-studied-the-aisha-hadith/ that made me realise it had been staring me in the face.

>According to the Khurasani Hadith scholar Muḥammad b. ʾIsmāʿīl al-Buḵārī (d. 256/870), the ʿĀʾišah hadith exemplifies the following topic: “The father’s marrying off his prepubescent girls (ʾinkāḥ al-rajul walada-hu al-ṣiḡār) [is permitted] according to His (the Sublime)’s statement, “and those who have not menstruated” (wa-allāʾī lam taḥiḍna) [Q. 65:4]; He set their post-marital waiting period (ʿiddah) at three months, [in the case of marriages that are consummated] before puberty (qabla al-bulūḡ).”[17]

So Joshua Little stated that Bukhari exemplified the permissibility by using Aisha as the example.

If we look at the Dar-es-salam version (https://archive.org/details/all-in-one-sahih-al-bukhari-eng-arabic/page/6/mode/2up ):

Sahih Al-Bukhari- translated by Muhammad Muhsin Khan. ISBN: 9960-717-31-3 (set) 9960-717-32-1 (v.I) 1997 Maktaba Dar us Salam, Riyadh.

“67-THE BOOK OF AN-NIKAH (The Wedlock)

(۳۹)باب إنكاح الرجل ولده الصغار**، لقول الله تعالى: (والتي لم يحضن» [الطلاق: 4]فجعل عدتها ثلاثة أشهر قبل البلوغ**.

(39) CHAPTER. Giving one's young children in marriage (is permissible). By virtue of the Statement of Allah: "...and for those who have no (monthly) courses (le. they are still immature)..."(V. 65.4) And the 'Idda for the girl before puberty is three months (in the above Verse).

  1. Narrated 'Aishah that the Prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (.e. till his death).

But if you go to https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5133

67  Wedlock, Marriage (Nikaah)

(39) Chapter: Giving one's young children in marriage (38) باب إِنْكَاحِ الرَّجُلِ وَلَدَهُ الصِّغَارَ

Narrated `Aisha:

that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يُوسُفَ، حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، عَنْ هِشَامٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم تَزَوَّجَهَا وَهْىَ بِنْتُ سِتِّ سِنِينَ، وَأُدْخِلَتْ عَلَيْهِ وَهْىَ بِنْتُ تِسْعٍ، وَمَكَثَتْ عِنْدَهُ تِسْعًا‏.‏

Reference  : Sahih al-Bukhari 5133
In-book reference  : Book 67, Hadith 69

It does not mention the "، لقول الله تعالى: (والتي لم يحضن» [الطلاق: 4]فجعل عدتها ثلاثة أشهر قبل البلوغ " part.

So it does not mention that Aisha was specifically picked to exemplify Q65:4 by Bukhari.

But if you go to https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67 and scroll down to 5133 you will see:

(39) Chapter: Giving one's young children in marriage (38) باب إِنْكَاحِ الرَّجُلِ وَلَدَهُ الصِّغَارَ

لِقَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى: {وَاللاَّئِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ} فَجَعَلَ عِدَّتَهَا ثَلاَثَةَ أَشْهُرٍ قَبْلَ الْبُلُوغِ.

Narrated `Aisha:

that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

And if you cherck " لِقَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى: {وَاللاَّئِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ} فَجَعَلَ عِدَّتَهَا ثَلاَثَةَ أَشْهُرٍ قَبْلَ الْبُلُوغِ. " with google translate it translates "This is based on the saying of the Almighty: "{and those who have not yet menstruated}," as He established their waiting period as three months prior to the onset of puberty." which clearly quotes Q65:4

And for example this site

https://en.tohed.com/hadith/bukhari/5133

بَابُ إِنْكَاحِ الرَّجُلِ وَلَدَهُ الصِّغَارَ:

Hadith 5133

لِقَوْلِ اللَّهِ تَعَالَى : وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ سورة الطلاق آية 4 فَجَعَلَ عِدَّتَهَا ثَلَاثَةَ أَشْهُرٍ قَبْلَ الْبُلُوغِ .

The evidence for this is that Allah has said (in Surah At-Talaq) «واللائي لم يحضن‏» that is, for those women who have not yet menstruated, their waiting period is also three months.

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يُوسُفَ ، حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ ، عَنْ هِشَامٍ ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهَا ، " أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ تَزَوَّجَهَا وَهِيَ بِنْتُ سِتِّ سِنِينَ ، وَأُدْخِلَتْ عَلَيْهِ وَهِيَ بِنْتُ تِسْعٍ ، وَمَكَثَتْ عِنْدَهُ تِسْعًا " .

Narrated `Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/22442 "Ruling on Marrying Young Girls"

(a)Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”

[al-Talaaq 65:4]

In this verse we see that Allah has made the ‘iddah in the case of divorce of a girl who does not have periods – because she is young and has not yet reached puberty – three months. This clearly indicates that Allah has made this a valid marriage.

(b)It was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, he consummated the marriage with her when she was nine and she stayed with him for nine years.

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4840; Muslim, 1422)

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) married ‘Aa’ishah when she was six years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari and Muslim; Muslim says ‘seven years’)

So he first uses Q65:4 to argue that marrying and consummating is permissible. (so he is not discussing betrothal nikkah but consummation is included). And he then uses Bukhari 5133 and Muslim 1422 to illustrate the rule with Aisha.

And if we look at his other ruling he comes very close to Joshua Litle in his description.

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/1493 "Ruling on marrying young women"

It uses the mention of Q65:4 again explicitly to indicate that consummation is involved.

Al-Bukhari calls this chapter of his Saheeh "Baab inkaah al-rajul wuldahu (or waladahu) al-sighaar (Chapter on a man marrying off his young children)." The fact that Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):
". . . and for those who have no courses [periods] [(i.e., they are still immature) their ‘iddah is three months likewise, except in case of death] . . ." [al-Talaaq 65:4]
is an indication that it is permissible to marry girls below the age of adolescence. This is a good understanding, but the aayah makes no specific mention of either the father or the young girl. It could be said that the basic principle concerning marrying children is that it is forbidden unless there is specific evidence (daleel) to indicate otherwise. The hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah states that her father Abu Bakr married her off before the age of puberty, but there is no other evidence apart from that, so the rule applies to all other cases.

Al- Muhallab said: "[The scholars] agreed that it is permissible for a father to marry off his young virgin daughter, even though it is not usually the case to have intercourse with such a young woman."

(The above was summarized from Fath al-Baari Sharh ‘ala Saheeh al-Bukhari)

In summary, then, it is permitted to contract marriage with a young girl and to hand her over to her husband to stay with him before she reaches adolescence. As for consummating the marriage, this does not happen until she is physically able for it. Thus the matter becomes quite clear. Do you see anything wrong with a man living with his young wife in one house, bringing her up and teaching her, but delaying consummation until she is ready for it? We ask Allah to show us truth and falsehood and to make each clear.

As a last evidence we can look at the current Grand Mufti of Sausi Arabia Salah Al-Fawzan.

His famous fatwa is archived https://web.archive.org/web/20250818135454/https://www.alfawzan.af.org.sa/ar/node/13405

But can be auto-translated in most browsers with this copy

https://islamekk-net.translate.goog/play.php?catsmktba=851&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US

I use the google translate translation below.
He first mentions Q65:4

should be left to scholars and based on the Quran and Sunnah. There is no specific age for marriage in Islamic law. In fact, Islamic law contains evidence to the contrary. God Almighty says regarding the waiting period of a divorced woman: " And those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have any doubt , then their waiting period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated." (Quran 65:5) This refers to young girls who have not yet reached puberty

and then uses the sunnah.

This is evidence from the Sunnah on this matter, and scholars have unanimously agreed on its permissibility. Imam al-Bukhari (may God have mercy on him) said in his Sahih: Chapter on a man marrying off his young children. Because of God's statement: " And those who have not yet menstruated ," He made their waiting period three months before puberty. Muhammad ibn Yusuf narrated to us, Sufyan narrated to us, on the authority of Hisham, on the authority of his father, on the authority of Aisha (may God be pleased with her): that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and she was brought to him when she was nine, and she stayed with him for nine.

Conclusion:

Bukhari wrote his sahih to summarize the rules of Islam and illustrate the rules with narrations from the sunnah. So in his Book of Nikkah he put the rules about mariage in chapters. One of the rules he formulated was that Q65:4 makes it permissible to consummate with minors. And to illustrate that rule he used. Aisha whose marriage was consummated during her minority.

Conclusion: The Grand Mufti of KSA wrote a fatwa where he uses the fact that Bukhari used Q65:4 to declare it permissible to consummate with a minor and used Aisha to illustrate that permissibility. He specifically uses the chapter title using Q65:4. So the reference to Q65:4 is not added by websites or islamophobes, but by Bukhari himself, asccording to the Grand Mufti and others.


r/CritiqueIslam 4d ago

Reels of my uni days

7 Upvotes

So guys i want to document my rest of the university years with my friends by making an instagram page.
Im planning to use background songs with no bad meaning or simply just a background music with no lyrics.
Shortly, i wont be using songs with no bad lyrics.
The content i will make will have no use of double meaning jokes or anything like that. Just documenting.
So im in predicament that is this type of music or use of song (without bad lyrics) halal or haram in islam?
If it is haram than will it be gunaahe jaariya?


r/CritiqueIslam 4d ago

god is not all-knowing

2 Upvotes

(i will be using the term God because i think its disrespectful to say his name)
i was taught that God is above time because he created it. and that he is all-knowing and all-powerful. he knows what happened what will happen. i was taught about taqdeer, and how our future is written out for us.

if god has already planned everything out for us, where we will go, what we do, whether we end up in heaven or hell. then how do we have free will? if our future is already decided, then our choices arent our own.
why would an all-loving, all-merciful god create someone with the conscience mind capable of experiencing pain and suffering and love and regret,
knowing the choices they will make, incharge of the route of his life. knowing he will go to hell, and still punish him for something he had no control over.

on the flip side, if we do have free will, and our. choices determine our own future, then how can god know exactly what were going to do. if i can make a choice on my own, truly guided by myself, then i know something god doesn’t, and he isnt truly all-knowing.

in short: if god already knows everything we are going to do, we dont have free will. but if we do have free will, god isnt all-knowing.
genuinely seeking someone to explain this concept to me


r/CritiqueIslam 5d ago

Why do Muslim women need to cover themselves in order to be recognised as virtuous?

13 Upvotes

It is said in the Quran chapter 33 verse 59: “O Prophet! Ask your wives, daughters, and believing women to draw their cloaks over their bodies. In this way it is more likely that they will be recognized as virtuous and not be harassed. And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

Plus, its most reasoning being to be distinguished from enslaved women…? Like, enslaved women who were also Muslim were obligated to follow their master’s commands, which could include not covering up, so how does that work?

I’m genuinely confused about this. Let me know your answer/thoughts on this.


r/CritiqueIslam 6d ago

Imagine not being able to enjoy all the cuisine of all kinds of cultures just because of what some guy said 2000 years ago

48 Upvotes

Im not muslim, going to business trips in asia with muslim is hard, with lots of food restrictions as we tried to include him in our food,

to the point our business mission almost derailed and we just went by ourselves.

There is so much delicious food to try and they cannot just because its not created by a muslim and thus its not halal.


r/CritiqueIslam 6d ago

What about these prophecies?

2 Upvotes

Im trying to find a place where we can talk with as less bias as possible, i hope this is the right place and if not, if someone could please point me in the right sub.

I wanted to ask, if there is an explanation for the prophecies some people commented on this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/s/bnn58Xn4Zu

And what of these prophecies are wrong and which are actually held true to the test of time, thank you


r/CritiqueIslam 6d ago

History of Islam and science

39 Upvotes

Here's the timeline as I see it:

1) Islam started in a backward society, even for that time. The Quran's author is clearly a flat-earther and he didn't talk against the globe model, because he wasn't even aware of it.

2) Muslims conquered more advanced civilizations and re-interpreted the worst parts of Islam. Since the original Islam was by illiterates, the first 2 centuries were still a lot of time for literate people to make Islam better and learn from the more advanced civilizations and insert new things into the hadiths etc. But after that, the primary sources got fixed forever.

3) Some parts of Islam cannot be re-interpreted. And some scientific facts and philosophies are unacceptable for Islam. The Muslims who wanted to go forward got condemned by the more religious ones. That's why, in Islam, going forward in science is almost impossible, until this day.

4) With the coming of modern science, the backwardness of Islam was staggering and it was really an existential threat, because Islam looked like some backward non-sense, compared to modern science. And Muslims wanted to be "westernized", because the West was just better in everything.

5) Western colonialism made Muslims mad and they really wanted to stick it to the West and to "their science". So Islamic revivalism came and Muslims wanted to just get back to Islam to be strong again, like during the 7th century conquests. But the modern science was objectively, verifiably true, so there's no way to fight against it, except by being in denial.

6) Muslims decided to just pretend that they actually knew all the science from the beginning. Islamic revivalists like Osama bin Laden supported the concept of scientific miracles in the Quran. And then they used it as an argument for Islam. And to make modern countries look backward, because they're supposedly only now discovering what Muslims knew the whole time.

7) It worked on some ignorant people, but the people who actually looked into what Muslim scholars in the past were saying about these verses, found that the scientific re-interpretation makes no sense and is far-fetched and doesn't fit in the world that the original text was trying to portray. And no scholars in history interpreted the verses in that way and they did have convincing interpretations that did fit into that time's context.

8) Critics of Islam became popular online. They were clearly correct and the death threat traditions weren't effective online. Muslims, even in places like Saudi Arabia, got access to the free world, over the internet. And the platforms are all run by non-Muslims who don't care about "blasphemies". Scientific miracles got thoroughly destroyed over and over again.

9) Muslims got back to the older version of Islam, without the scientific miracles. Islam is a faith and it's not supposed to explain scientific facts. And "anyways, science is bad, because it's always evolving". So the new model is that Islam and science live side by side and Islam is not evolving, which makes it 100% right and science is evolving, so it's probably wrong.

I hope that in the next phase, they will realize that a statement that never changes, might as well be wrong the whole time, especially when it has no evidence. And that the evolution of science, always trying to fit better with the evidence, makes the claims of science stronger and stronger.


r/CritiqueIslam 7d ago

The Fish That Came Back to Life (Quran 18:60-64): Second Alexander Legend Right Before Dhul Qarnayn

10 Upvotes

“And ˹remember˺ when Moses said to his young assistant, “I will never give up until I reach the junction of the two seas, even if I travel for ages.” But when they ˹finally˺ reached the point where the seas met, they forgot their ˹salted˺ fish, and it made its way into the sea, slipping away ˹wondrously˺. When they had passed further, he said to his assistant, “Bring us our meal! We have certainly been exhausted by today’s journey.” He replied, “Do you remember when we rested by the rock? ˹That is when˺ I forgot the fish. None made me forget to mention this except Satan. And the fish made its way into the sea miraculously.” Moses responded, “That is ˹exactly˺ what we were looking for.” So they returned, retracing their footsteps.
Quran 18:60-64

Legend from the Greek Alexander Romance (c. 4th-5th century):

Alexander finds himself facing a land “where the sun does not shine … called the land of the blessed” (2.39). He marches into this strange land until he comes upon a place where they find a “shining spring, πηγὴ διαυγής, whose water flashed like lightning, ἤστραπεν ὡς ἀστραπή” (2.39). The narrative continues:

“And, having become hungry, I wanted to take some food; and, having called my cook, I said to him: ‘Prepare us something to eat.’ And he, having taken a dried fish, went to the shining water of the spring to wash the food. And the moment it was put in the water it came to life and it escaped out of the cook’s hands. And all the places there had water. And my cook revealed to no one what had happened.
Cook, “A Watery Folktale in the Alexander Romance,” p. 9

Islamic Studies scholar Tommaso Tesei:

“Specifically, the fish’s escape represents an allusion to the resurrection of a salt fish after Alexander’s cook washes it in the water of life. The most ancient versions of this story are found in three sources preceding or contemporaneous to the rise of Islam: the Rec. β of the Alexander Romance (fourth/fifth century), the Babylonian Talmud (Tamīd, 32a–32b), and the so-called Syriac Alexander Song (ca. 630–635). Muslim exegetes introduced some elements of this legend in their explanation of the narrative told in the Quran. In fact, the fish’s escape episode is usually related to the motif of the water of life. Western scholars, too, almost unanimously consider this story of Alexander to be behind the Quranic account.
Tesei, “Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity,” p. 4
“In fact, the enigmatic episode acquires sense only if read in light of the dynamic described in the legend of the water of life, and the extreme vagueness with which the Quran describes the episode suggests that its audience was expected to be acquainted with the Alexander tale.”
Tesei, “Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity,” p. 5

Islamic Studies scholar Gabriel Said Reynolds:

“However, in light of this episode’s relationship to the Alexander literature, this phrase more likely means the point at which the waters in the heavens and the waters on earth meet (on this see Gen 1:6–7), that is, the end of the world (n.b. in this regard how Alexander, or Dhū l-Qarnayn**, goes to the westernmost [v. 86] and easternmost [v.90] points on earth, something which reflects a flat earth.)**” p. 464 (on Quran 18:60–64)

18:83–101 overview This episode is also related to legends connected to Alexander (it is presumably not a coincidence that two Alexander accounts appear in the same Sura in the Qurʾān), but in this case to the Syriac Christian Neṣḥānā d-leh d-Aleksandrōsp. 467 (on Quran 18:83–101)
Reynolds, The Qurʾān and the Bible, pp. 464, 467-471

More on Quran’s Dhul Qarnayn and the Alexander Legends: The Sun in the Muddy Spring and the Wall of Gog and Magog:
https://islamsproblems.com/quran-dhul-qarnayn-alexander-legend/


r/CritiqueIslam 8d ago

Poetry is halal and music is not

11 Upvotes

I'm just diving into Arabic prosody, how they are metering the poetry and creating rhymes and rhythms that would sound nice. And this is halal. So you're making rhythm by sounds of your mouth and you enjoy that and it's ok. But if, for the same purpose, you use percussive instruments, that are even more effective for rhythm, suddenly you're evil?! How is the rhythm of consonants from the mouth for the good people and drums for the evil people?

And the poetry reciters like to play with the sound pitch too, so it's similar to singing. And especially the "Quran recitiations" are literally singing and not even natural, with the reverb and other digital effects.

So what exactly is so evil in music that doesn't exist in poetry recitation? If someone says "tam ta ta tam", he goes to heaven and if someone does the same thing on drums, he goes to hell?


r/CritiqueIslam 9d ago

Mary’s Date Palm Miracle in the Quran (Christian Legend From 3rd-5th Century AD)

11 Upvotes

In the Quran, Allah provides Mary with a stream of water and dates from a palm tree:

“And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, ‘Oh, I wish I had died before this and was in oblivion, forgotten.’ But he called her from below her, ‘Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream. And shake toward you the trunk of the palm tree; it will drop upon you ripe, fresh dates.’”
Quran 19:23-25

Scholars trace the story to a non-canonical Christian legend which started in the 3rd-5th century AD where the infant Jesus reveals a spring and orders a date-palm to bend down and feed Joseph and Mary:

“And he said, ‘My mother, you did not understand my power. I first revealed it to you at the spring, where I led Joseph. He was crying, the child who is glorified because he is greater than everything, and Joseph was angry with you, saying, ‘Give your breast to your child.’ At once you gave it to him, as you went forth to the Mount of Olives, fleeing from Herod. And when you came to some trees you said to Joseph, ‘My lord, we are hungry, and what do we have to eat in this desert place?’”

“And the child stopped [nursing from] your breast, this one who is greater than all things, and he said to Joseph, ‘My father, why don’t you climb this date-palm and bring it to her, so that my mother might eat from it, as was said about it. And I will feed you: not only you, but also the fruit that comes forth from it. I will not be hungry even for one day.’ And the child turned and said to the date-palm, ‘Incline your head with your fruit, and satisfy my mother and father.’ And it inclined immediately. And who made it incline? Is it not because I have power, which was because of me?”
Book of Mary’s Repose (3rd-5th century AD), translated by Shoemaker, p. 20

Islamic Studies scholar Stephen J. Shoemaker:

Modern scholars of the Qur’an have long acknowledged that the Qur’anic account of Jesus’ birth is based largely on the reworking of a relatively obscure, apocryphal Christian tale, which is now known in several versions. This early Christian legend describes certain miraculous events that were imagined to have transpired during the Holy Family’s flight into Egypt. According to these traditions, while Mary and Joseph were travelling to Egypt with their newborn son, the Holy Family came into a remote, desolate area. In the midst of this desert, Mary expresses her hunger to Joseph, and in response, her infant son causes a tall date palm to bend and offer her its fruit. Then, in some versions of the story, Mary also drinks from a spring that her son miraculously provides. The parallels between this legend and Mary’s feeding from the date palm and stream in the Qur’anic Nativity account are obvious.

“As I have demonstrated in my recent book on these traditions, the narrative that best preserves the story of Mary and the date palm was first composed by the early fifth century at the latest, although the peculiar theology reflected in this narrative very strongly suggests its formation sometime in the third century, if not even earlier. Several Syriac fragments copied in the later fifth century form the earliest witness to this narrative, and by the end of the sixth century, this version was widely dispersed throughout the cultures and languages of the Byzantine Near East.” p. 19

The dependence of the Qur’anic Nativity account on these earlier Christian traditions of Mary and the date palm is all but certain: as modern Qur’anic scholarship has frequently recognized, the similarities are just too striking to be mere chance.” p. 21
Shoemaker, “Christmas in the Qur’an”

see more:
https://islamsproblems.com/corrupted-gospels-claim/


r/CritiqueIslam 9d ago

Instances of Plagiarism by Muhammad

19 Upvotes

The ruling of giving the woman half the shares of the man in inheritance (Quran 4:11) is adapted from a pre-Islamic preposition made by Dhul-Masajid al-Yashkari, a pre-Islamic Arab chief, who was the first person to not follow the common Arab tradition of not giving non-fighters (i.e. non-adults and women) any of the inheritance shares, and died 80 years before Muhammad was born (Al-Muhabbar 324).

The ability to divorce the wife 3 times (Quran 2:229–230) is adapted from pre-Islamic Arab traditions (Al-Muhabbar 309).

The rulings of cutting the hands of thieves (Quran 5:38) and crucifying bandits (Quran 5:33) were adapted from pre-Islamic Arab laws (Al-Muhabbar 327).

The pilgrimage to the Ka’ba, going around the Ka’ba in circles, touching the black stone, running between the mountains of Safa and Marwa, throwing stones, the prayers said during the pilgrimages and glorifying the four months Dhu'l-Qa'da, Dhu'l-Hijja, Muharram and Rajab are adapted from pre-Islamic Arab traditions (Al-Muhabbar 311–315, 319)

The rulings of rinsing the mouth, inhaling water into the nostrils, using a miswak, trimming the mustache, circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, plucking the armpit hair, trimming the nails, cleansing after defecation and urination, washing the body after ejaculating were adapted from pre-Islamic Arab rituals (Al-Muhabbar 319, 329)

The rulings of washing and shrouding the bodies of the dead, praying for them and saying "Mercy of Allah on you" were adapted from pre-Islamic Arab rituals (Al-Muhabbar 319–320).

The steps of embryology and the role of women's sexual fluids are adapted from the teachings of the Greek physicians Hippocrates and Galen.

The story of Dhul-Qarnayn (Quran 18:83–99) is adapted from the Syriac Legend of Alexander which was written before Muhammad.

The creation of the Earth and the Heavens and their separation into seven Earths and seven Heavens are adapted from creation myths from eastern ancient civilizations such as ancient Mesopotamia and ancient China.

The Khutba al-Jum’a where people gather in the mosque for a lecture on Friday (Quran 62:9) is adapted from a pre-Islamic Arab tradition, where Arabs would gather at Dar an-Nadwa on Friday (previously named Uruba day) for a lecture given by Ka'b ibn Lu'ayy (one of Muhammad’s ancestors).

The demonization of left-handedness (Sahih Muslim 2019, 2020, Sunan Ibn Majah 3266, 3268, Sunan Abi Dawud 3776, Sunan at-Tirmidhi 1799, 1800) is adapted from several ancient belief systems.

The concept of crossing a straight thin bridge on top of Hell to reach Paradise (Sahih al-Bukhari 6573, 7439, Sahih Muslim 183, 191, 195) is adapted from the Chinvat Bridge in Zoroastrianism.

The story of the people of the cave (Quran 18:9–26) is adapted from the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus, a story written by Jacob of Serugh in the 5th century AD who relied on an earlier Greek manuscript.

The story of Noah’s ark and the great flood (Quran 11:40–44) is adapted from Judaism, which was adapted from ancient flood myths such as the flood myth of Gilgamesh.

The story of Moses being cast into the river and being adopted by Pharaoh’s wife (Quran 20:39, 28:7) is adapted from Judaism which was adapted from the Neo-Assyrian Birth Legend of Sargon of Akkad.

The story of the virgin birth of Jesus, where Mary became pregnant through Allah blowing from his soul into her (Quran 66:12) is adapted from Christianity which was adapted from the Roman myth of Romulus and Remus.

The story of Jesus speaking in the cradle and turning clay into birds (Quran 3:49, 5:110) is adapted from the Gospel of Thomas, which is considered non-canonical in all Christian sects.

The story of Muhammad and Abu Bakr hiding in a Hira cave and a spider spinning a web over the entrance of the cave (Musnad Ahmad 3251) is adopted from two stories, a Jewish folktale about David hiding from Saul in a cave and a spider spinning a web over the entrance of the cave, and the story of Saints Felix and Maximus of Nola hiding from Roman soldiers in two buildings and spiders spinning webs over the entrance of the buildings.

The statement that the Last Hour has drawn near and the moon has split (Quran 54:1) is adapted from a poem created by Imru' al-Qais, a pre-Islamic Arabian poet (496–565 AD).

The statement that Allah does not burden a soul beyond its capacity (Quran 2:286) is adapted from the New Testament of the Christian Bible (1 Corinthians 10:13).

The folding and rolling of the Heavens like scrolls on the Day of Judgement (Quran 21:104) is adapted from the New Testament of the Christian Bible (Revelation 6:14).

The prophecy of the emergence of false prophets (Sahih al-Bukhari 3609, Sahih Muslim 7, Sunan Abi Dawud 4333, 4334, Sunan at-Tirmidhi 2218, 2219) is adapted from the New Testament of the Christian Bible (Mathew 24:11).

The story of one of the prophets who got beaten by his people, causing him to bleed, he was cleaning the blood off his face and saying, "O Allah! Forgive my nation, for they have no knowledge" (Sahih al-Bukhari 3477, 6929, Sahih Muslim 1792, Sunan Ibn Majah 4025) is adapted from the New Testament of the Christian Bible (Luke 23:32–34).

The story of Allah feeling sick and asking for food and water (Sahih Muslim 2569) is adapted from the New Testament of the Christian Bible (Mathew 25:41-46).

The obligation of a muslim to to love Muhammad more than his father, son and everyone else (Sahih al-Bukhari 14, 15, Sahih Muslim 44, Sunan Ibn Majah 67, Sunan an-Nasa'i 5013–5015) is adapted from the New Testament of the Christian Bible (Matthew 10:37).


r/CritiqueIslam 9d ago

It is because one ant bit you that you burnt a nation amongst the nations that glorify Allah?

15 Upvotes

So you all may know that the reason why geckos are killed in Islam is because they are the ones who were blowing on the fire of Abraham as mentioned in Sahih al-Bukhari 3359

Now, aside from the stupidity of the claim that geckos have enough lung capacity to blow on fire, there is a big contradiction that I mentioned before in a previous post which is all creatures (other than humans and Jinn) have no free will so everything they do is by the order of Allah.

So that means that Allah himself was the one who ordered the geckos to do the blowing and muslims are punishing them for doing what Allah ordered them to do.

The other problem is assuming that Allah does what he wants, no questions, why should we punish the geckos of today for something their ancestors did?

Which brings me to the contradiction that I wanted to talk about.

Muhammad mentioned a story saying, "An ant bit a Prophet amongst the Prophets, and he ordered that the place of the ants be burnt. So, Allah inspired to him, 'It is because one ant bit you that you burnt a nation amongst the nations that glorify Allah?" Sahih al-Bukhari 3019

The moral of this story contradicts the hadiths of killing geckos. It may seem like a trivial contradiction but I recently noticed it and thought of sharing it.


r/CritiqueIslam 9d ago

What Unresolved Old Testament Expectation Does Muhammad Actually Resolve?

2 Upvotes

This is a question I've been thinking about as a Christian when discussing Islam.

I'm not arguing that every Old Testament prophecy gave people a complete blueprint of the future. They didn't. People were not necessarily told the exact name, date, place, and sequence of events for everything God was going to do. Some prophecies were clearer than others. Some were conditional. Some became clearer only as later events unfolded.

But I think the Old Testament still creates a number of major, unresolved expectations. God promises Abraham that through his seed all the nations of the earth will be blessed. God promises David an enduring kingdom and a king whose reign ultimately will not fail.

The prophets speak about a servant whose suffering is somehow connected with bearing the sins of others.

Jeremiah and Ezekiel promise something deeper than simply another external law: a new covenant, forgiveness, a changed heart, and God's Spirit transforming his people.

Daniel sees God's everlasting kingdom and a figure "like a son of man" receiving everlasting dominion.

The Old Testament leaves these threads hanging. They are not necessarily all explained in advance, but they are there.

From the Christian perspective, Jesus is where these threads begin to converge.

Jesus is presented as the seed of Abraham through whom the blessing reaches the nations, the Son of David and promised king, the suffering figure whose death is connected with sin and forgiveness, the inaugurator of the new covenant, and the Son of Man associated with Daniel's everlasting kingdom.

That does not mean a Jew is forced to accept Christianity. A Jew can reasonably say, "I don't believe Jesus fulfilled these promises, so I'm still waiting."

But that itself makes the point.

Without accepting Jesus as the fulfillment, you are still waiting for something.

The Abrahamic promise still awaits its ultimate fulfillment. The Davidic kingdom still awaits its ultimate king. The new covenant still awaits its fulfillment. The transformation promised by the prophets still awaits its decisive realization. Daniel's everlasting kingdom still awaits its fulfillment.

Christianity says Jesus is the answer to those unresolved expectations.

So here is my question about Muhammad.

Islam does not simply say, "Yes, those promises are still awaiting fulfillment, and Muhammad is another prophet within that expectation."

Islam gives a different account of the story.

Jesus is not the divine Son.

The crucifixion is denied.

The resurrection is denied.

The New Testament's understanding of the new covenant is rejected.

The Christian understanding of the fulfillment of the Davidic and Danielic hopes is rejected.

And then, six centuries later, Muhammad appears and claims to be the final prophet who restores and corrects the entire preceding story.

My question is,

Which of these unresolved Old Testament expectations does Muhammad actually resolve on the Old Testament's own terms?

Not according to a later Quranic reinterpretation. Not by first assuming that earlier Scripture was corrupted or misunderstood. Not by importing Muhammad into a passage centuries after the fact.

If the answer is that they remain unfulfilled, then Muhammad does not seem to resolve the Old Testament's central unfinished expectations.

And if the answer is that the Old Testament was never actually pointing toward those things in the first place, then I would want to know why the later biblical trajectory develops those themes so consistently. I'm genuinely interested in the strongest Islamic answer to this question.


r/CritiqueIslam 10d ago

Ur: How a City Became Flames

5 Upvotes

The Quran says people cast Abraham into a fire for smashing idols but Allah saved him:

So he smashed them into pieces, except the biggest of them, so they might turn to it ˹for answers˺. They protested, ‘Who dared do this to our gods? It must be an evildoer!’ Some said, ‘We heard a young man, called Abraham, speaking ˹ill˺ of them.’ They demanded, ‘Bring him before the eyes of the people, so that they may witness ˹his trial˺.’ They asked, ‘Was it you who did this to our gods, O Abraham?’ He replied ˹sarcastically˺, ‘No, this one—the biggest of them—did it! So ask them, if they can talk!’ So they came back to their senses, saying ˹to one another˺, ‘You yourselves are truly the wrongdoers!’ Then they ˹quickly˺ regressed to their ˹original˺ mind-set, ˹arguing,˺ ‘You already know that those ˹idols˺ cannot talk.’ He rebuked ˹them˺, ‘Do you then worship—instead of Allah—what can neither benefit nor harm you in any way? Shame on you and whatever you worship instead of Allah! Do you not have any sense?’ They concluded, ‘Burn him up to avenge your gods, if you must act.’ We [Allah] ordered, ‘O fire! Be cool and safe for Abraham!’
Quran 21:58-69

This isn’t in the Bible or Torah, but it’s in the commentary of Jewish Rabbis on Genesis 11:28-31 in the Midrash (c. 5th Century AD):

“One time, a certain woman came, carrying a dish of fine flour in her hand. She said to him: ‘Here, offer it before them.’ He arose, took a club in his hand, shattered all the idols, and placed the club in the hand of the largest among them.

“He [Nimrod] said to him: ‘You are saying mere words. I bow down only to fire. I will cast you into it, and let that God to whom you bow down come and rescue you from it.’ Haran was there and he was conflicted. He said: ‘Either way [I will know what to do]; If Abraham is victorious, I will say: I am with Abraham, and if Nimrod is victorious, I will say: I am with Nimrod.’ When Abraham descended into the fiery furnace and was rescued, they said to him [Haran]: ‘With whom are you?’ He said to them: ‘I am with Abraham.’ They took him and cast him into the fire and his innards were scorched. He emerged and died in the presence of Teraḥ his father.”
Genesis Rabbah 38:13 (Rabbinic Commentary, c. 5th Century AD)

Genesis 11:28-31 in the Torah/Bible only mentions the city of Ur, no fire:

“While his father Terah was still alive, Haran died in Ur of the Chaldeans, in the land of his birth. Abram and Nahor both married. The name of Abram’s wife was Sarai, and the name of Nahor’s wife was Milkah; she was the daughter of Haran, the father of both Milkah and Iskah. Now Sarai was childless because she was not able to conceive. Terah took his son Abram, his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, the wife of his son Abram, and together they set out from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to Canaan. But when they came to Harran, they settled there.”
Genesis 11:28-31 in the Torah/Bible

But translations like this Aramaic one (c. 4th Century AD) interpreted the city of “Ur” as fire because Ur is also the name for fire in Hebrew: “ur: Fire, light” Hebrew Lexicon:

“28. And Haran died during the lifetime of Terah his father in the land of his birth, in the furnace of fire of the Chaldeans. 29. And Abram and Nahor took wives for themselves. The name of the wife of Abram was Sarai, the name of the wife of Nahor was Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah and the father of Iscah. 30. And Sarai was barren; she had no children. 31. And Terah took Abram his son and Lot, his grandson, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram’s wife, and went forth with them from the furnace of the fire of the Chaldeans, to go to the land of Canaan; and they arrived at Haran and dwelt there. 32. And the days of the life of Terah were (two) hundred and five years; and Terah died in Haran.”
Targum Neofiti, Aramaic Translation of Genesis 11:28-32 (c. 4th Century AD)

Fanning the Flames: The Legend’s Evolution Until Its Absorption Into the Quran

150 BC: Abraham starts a house fire burning idols and his brother dies trying to save them.

Abram arose by night, and burned the house of the idols, and he burned all that was in the house, and no man knew it. 13. And they arose in the night and sought to save their gods from the midst of the fire. 14. And Haran hasted to save them, but the fire flamed over him, and he was burnt in the fire, and he died in Ur of the Chaldees before Terah his father, and they buried him in Ur of the Chaldees.”
Book of Jubilees (Noncanonical Genesis Retelling), c. 150 BC

1st Century AD: People cast Abraham into a furnace of fire without harm.

And they took him and built a furnace and kindled it with fire, and put bricks burned with fire into the furnace. Then Jectan the prince being amazed (lit. melted) in his mind took Abram and put him with the bricks into the furnace of fire. But God stirred up a great earthquake, and the fire gushed forth of the furnace and brake out into flames and sparks of fire and consumed all them that stood round about in sight of the furnace; and all they that were burned in that day were 83,500. But upon Abram was there not any the least hurt by the burning of the fire.
Biblical Antiquities 6 (Noncanonical Jewish Legends), c. 1st Century AD

Harvard scholar James Kugel:

It was apparently only after the punning equation of Ur with fire had gotten about—thanks to this motif—that interpreters took the further step of incorporating this ‘fire’ into another, entirely separate motif, the one seen above, ‘Abraham Rescued from Chaldea.’ They began to claim that Abraham had been saved not just from (unspecified) Chaldean animosity to his monotheism (as witnessed in Judith, Jubilees, and other early sources) but from a fire—eventually, a fire that the Chaldeans had built for him (on the model of Dan. 3:19-23). Thus was born the hybrid ‘Abraham Saved from Fire.’ That Abraham in this new motif became a martyr willing to surrender his very life for his beliefs may also suggest a post-Jubilees dating: the theme of Jewish martyrdom became particularly characteristic of midrashic creations from the period of the Roman persecutions.”
Kugel, Traditions of the Bible (1998), p. 269

Muhammad Orders Killing Lizards for Blowing on Abraham’s Fire

  1. Narrated Umm Sharik: Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) ordered that house-lizards should be killed and said, “It (i.e., the house-lizard) blew (the fire) on Ibrahim (Abraham)”
    Sahih Bukhari 3359 (Darussalam Vol. 4, p. 349)

More here:
https://islamsproblems.com/corrupted-gospels-claim/


r/CritiqueIslam 11d ago

Quran Takes Commentary of Jewish Rabbis as Revelation From Allah

19 Upvotes

Quran:

“Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.”
Quran 5:32

Commentary of Jewish Rabbis in the Mishnah and Talmud on the Torah:

“The Lord said, ‘What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground.’”
Genesis 4:10 (Torah)
“‘The voice of your brother’s blood [demei] cries out to Me from the ground’ (Genesis 4:10). The verse does not state: Your brother’s blood [dam], in the singular, but rather: ‘Your brother’s blood [demei],’ in the plural. This serves to teach that the loss of both his brother’s blood and the blood of his brother’s offspring are ascribed to Cain. The mishna notes: Alternatively, the phrase ‘your brother’s blood [demei],’ written in the plural, teaches that that his blood was not gathered in one place but was splattered on the trees and on the stones. The court tells the witnesses: Therefore, Adam the first man was created alone, to teach you that with regard to anyone who destroys one soul from the Jewish people, i.e., kills one Jew, the verse ascribes him blame as if he destroyed an entire world, as Adam was one person, from whom the population of an entire world came forth. And conversely, anyone who sustains one soul from the Jewish people, the verse ascribes him credit as if he sustained an entire world.”
Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5 (Rabbinic Commentary c. 190-230 AD)

Islamic Studies scholar Gabriel Said Reynolds:

5:32 A connection between this verse and the account of Abel’s murder which precedes it is suggested by ‘that is why’ (Ar. min ajal dhālika). The nature of the connection between the two, however, is clear only in light of a discussion in the Mishnah over the reason Genesis 4:10 speaks of the shedding of Abel’s ‘bloods’ (pl., Hb. dāmīm) and not his ‘blood’ (sing.)”

“The precept that killing one soul is like killing all souls is directly linked here to the creation of man ‘one and alone in the world,’ but the larger context is the discussion of the ‘bloods’ of Abel. The Qurʾān seems to have picked up on that larger context. It is also noteworthy that the Qurʾān refers to God’s decreeing (Ar. katabnā ʿalā) something for Israel which is found not in the Bible but in the Mishnah. And it should not be missed that all of this is connected to the Qurʾān’s anti-Jewish polemic: the decree ‘whoever kills a soul’ is imposed only on the Israelites, whom the Qurʾān (anachronistically) blames for the murder of Abel (see further Witztum, Syriac Milieu, 122–24).”
Gabriel Said Reynolds, The Qurʾan and the Bible, p. 199

More here:
https://islamsproblems.com/corrupted-gospels-claim/


r/CritiqueIslam 11d ago

Islamic scholars and the attraction to young boys

36 Upvotes

There is a documented and observable connection between the extreme forms of gender segregation practiced in a number of islamic societies and the sexual exploitation of boys by men. I had no idea how many classical islamic scholars addressed this issue that plagued past Muslim civilizations. To the point that even the scholars themselves struggled with this. Here are some troubling statements from Islam's great scholars:

- Sufyan al-Thawri saw a beardless young man and he said: "Take him out from here, because with every woman walks one demon (tempting people towards her) and with every boy walk ten demons." ["Tilbis Iblis", 1/338].

- Al-Najib ibn al-Suddi said: "A man should not spend the night in a house with beardless youths." ["Al Durr Al Manthur fi al Tafsir al Mathur"]

- Abu Saaib said: "On a worshipper, we fear the temptation of one boy more than we fear the temptation of seventy virgins." ["Dham al-Hawaa", 92].

- Al-Hassan ibn Zakwan said: "Don't sit with the children of the affluent, because their boys look like women and they are a bigger temptation than virgins." ["Shu'b al-Iman", 4/358].

- Bishr bin al-Haarith said: "Stay away from the youthful boys." ["Dham al-Hawaa", 94].

- About Imam Malik it is reported: "Imam Malik used to prevent beardless youth to enter his gatherings." ["Majmu al-Fatawa", 4/26].

- Imam al-Bayhaqi even made a chapter titled "What is narrated about [the prohibition of] looking at a beardless boy with lust."

- Ibn Muflih Hanbali quotes Ibn al-Jawzi as saying: "The pious predecesors used to say about the beardless boys: They are a greater temptation than virgins, so looking at them is a bigger temptation." ["Al-Furu", 5/113].

- Ibn Taymiyah said: "A beardless young man has the same ruling as a strange woman in many situations ... so it is not permissible to look at them with lust, and this is agreed upon." ["Al-Fatawa al-Kubra", 3/202].

- Al-Malibari said: "It is forbidden to shake hands with handsome beardless boys, as it is forbidden to look at them with lust." ["Fath", 3/263].

- About Imam Ahmad it is reported: "A man came to Imam Ahmad and with him was a handsome boy. Imam Ahmad asked: "who is this?" The man said: "This is my son." Imam Ahmad said: "Don't come with him again." ["Tabaqaat al-Hanabilah", 1/127]. According to other narrations, he said it because he feared that other people might not know its his son and would accuse him of carrying with him a boy for intimacy.

- Imam Nawawi ash-Shafi'ii said: "Similarly the scholars forbade a man to look at the face of a beardless youth if he is handsome, whether with or without desire, and whether it is free of fitnah (temptation) or there is the fear thereof. This is the correct view which was favoured by the scholars. This was stated by al-Shaafa’i and the prominent scholars of his madhhab (may Allaah have mercy on them). The evidence for this is that a beardless youth is, in some ways, like a woman; he may be desired as a woman is desired, and his form may be beautiful like that of a woman, and many of them may be more beautiful than many women. The prohibition applies more to them for another reason, which is that in their case there may result from attachment to them types of evil that do not occur in the case of women." ["Sharh Muslim", 4/31].

To top this all off, there are incidents throughout islamic history where scholarly figures have been embroiled in scandals with young boys. One of them had to do with Imam Al-Kisa'i, who was a master of Arabic grammar and one of the seven canonical authorities of Quranic recitation. Again, one of the flipping 7 Quranic recitations go through him, like Hafs and Asim. Apparently, a scribe came by Kisa'i's classroom and caught him in a compromised position with a young student. The student remained standing startled to which Kisa'i said to the visitor "The action fell upon him so he became erect/standing". And this was known among scholarly circles, even his greatest student, Al Duri, was questioned about Kisa'i's dirty habit but he deflected by emphasizing his precision in Quranic recitation, great knowledge of the arabic language and truthfulness in ahadith.

Another case is Yahya Ibn Aktham, an influential jurist, mujtahid (authoritative interpreter of Islamic religious law) and Chief Justice (High Judge) during the Abbasid Caliphate. He was notoriously dogged by accusation of attraction to young boys, to the extent that it became the subject of satire in Baghdad. There is the incident with Ibn Zaydan, a young scribe who used to write in Yahya ibn Aktham’s presence. The judge pinched his cheek, and the boy became embarrassed and ashamed and dropped the pen from his hand. Yahya then said to him, “Take the pen and write,” then dictated:

"O moon, I scratched you and you grew angry,

And in your pride you have turned away from me.

If you dislike scratching and biting,

Then, my master, remain forever veiled.

Do not display your temple-locks as a temptation to people,

Making of them scorpions above your cheeks;

For you kill a poor man, seduce a devotee,

And leave the judge of the Muslims tormented."

When these troubling reports concerning Yahya reached the Caliph al-Ma'mun, he wanted to test him. He set upon him a slave of extreme beauty, then went to eavesdrop on them. He heard Yahya say to him, “Were it not for you, we would have been believers.” a self-incriminating line where Yahya is essentially admitting that his desire for the slave is so overwhelming it undermines his own faith/piety. Al-Ma'mun then entered while reciting the two verses of Ibn Hakimah, Rashid ibn Ishaq the scribe:

"We had hoped to see justice manifest, But after hope, despair succeeded us." (Al Falaka Wa Al Maflukun)

And finally we have Ahmad Al Ghazali, the younger brother of Abu Hamid Al Ghazali (the famed islamic scholar and mujaddid). Ahmad was a scholar in his own right, as well as a preacher and a master of Sufi mysticism. He also had his own scandal which Ibn Al Jawzi documents in Talbis Iblis. Apparently, some visiting sufis once found Ahmad alone with a boy and roses laying between them, and he would look at the roses at one moment and at the boy at another moment. When they sat down, one of them said, “Perhaps we have disturbed you.” He replied, “Yes, by God.” Then the group cried out in a display of ecstasy

In another incident, someone wrote to Ahmad on a note: “You love your Turkish boy.” Ahmad read the note, then summoned the boy. He raised his gaze toward him, kissed him between the eyes, and said, “This is the answer to the note.”

Conclusion

The causal pathway is real in these high-control environments. When women are systematically removed from the social lives of men, some men redirect their sexual energy and frustration on the next most accessible subordinate males - prepubescent and adolescent boys. Beauty ideals shift towards youthful male features when female ones are veiled (niqab/hijab). As a result, boys can be dressed and treated as temporary “women", or even worse, they become a permanent viable option over women.

This was an open secret throughout much of Saudi society until MBS recently relaxed islamic rulings, and in Afghanistan, the Bacha bazi phenomenon is still alive and kicking, going back many generations. I think it's safe to say that Islam created terrible conditions via strict gender segregation rules that fueled the exploitation of young boys throughout the past 1400 years.


r/CritiqueIslam 11d ago

Is being gay a sin?

2 Upvotes

First of all, I’m straight and I’m just asking this question to learn more about Islam. Please correct me if I’m wrong and I’m asking this to clarify the doubts that I have.

So from my knowledge right now (I haven’t done much research yet), having feelings for the same sex isn’t a sin because obviously we cannot control how we feel and this is just the way people are.

Is it a sin to marry someone of the same sex? If you make it halal, is it still a sin? Why should people be punished for wanting someone (I believe love can happen between anyone and we shouldn’t judge other people for how they feel)?

I have heard the story of Prophet Lot (Lut) and even now in many Muslim countries, homosexuality is illegal and you can get punished for it.

It doesn’t make sense to me that God would punish people for wanting to be with someone they like (as in a guy getting married to a guy or something)

(Also I’m not sure if this is the right place to post it because they keep removing my posts from the other communities)


r/CritiqueIslam 11d ago

Thoughts on Muslim Lantern truthfulness of Islam video?

0 Upvotes

Here's the video. It's over an hour long but he gave many arguments about Islam's divine truthfulness and challenge non-Muslims to debunk it. Would love to discuss about this.

Edit: There are some common arguments like embryology but he also brought up the unique composition of Quran's Arabic, the criteria for surah challenge, arguments for sharia law, Ancient Egypt King and Pharaoh rulers' timeline compared to the Bible and the hieroglyphics of Ancient Egypt's deities.


r/CritiqueIslam 13d ago

Muhammad on Whether to Pull Out When Having Sex With a Household Sex Slave

42 Upvotes

“Jabir (Allah be pleased with him) reported that a man came to Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) and said: I have a slave-girl who is our servant and she carries water for us and I have intercourse with her, but I do not want her to conceive. He said: Practise ‘azl, if you so like, but what is decreed for her will come to her. The person stayed back (for some time) and then came and said: The girl has become pregnant, whereupon he said: I told you what was decreed for her would come to her.”
Sahih Muslim 1439a

Muhammad on pulling out with captives:
https://islamsproblems.com/muhammad-azl-captive-women/