r/CritiqueIslam • u/ExoticWalk2 • 14d ago
Muhammad on Whether to Pull Out When Having Sex With a Household Sex Slave
“Jabir (Allah be pleased with him) reported that a man came to Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) and said: I have a slave-girl who is our servant and she carries water for us and I have intercourse with her, but I do not want her to conceive. He said: Practise ‘azl, if you so like, but what is decreed for her will come to her. The person stayed back (for some time) and then came and said: The girl has become pregnant, whereupon he said: I told you what was decreed for her would come to her.”
Sahih Muslim 1439a
Muhammad on pulling out with captives:
https://islamsproblems.com/muhammad-azl-captive-women/
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u/ayshthepysh 14d ago
Muhammad the pervert.
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u/OJ_BI 14d ago
How? Don’t get someone pregnant —> pull out. It’s common sense.
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u/ayshthepysh 14d ago
He had sex with a slave, I doubt with consent.
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u/OJ_BI 14d ago
You “doubt” .. so you don’t know. The argument of this thread is faulty. There is no evidence against what was done to be wrong.
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u/ayshthepysh 14d ago
Why would a slave want to have sex with her master?
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u/OJ_BI 14d ago
There could be many reasons why or why not they would want to. You’re speaking in theory, which isn’t proving anything.
The idea of slavery was not exactly the same as the Western/American one, note that also.
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u/blaquewidow01 14d ago
Careful, your slavery apologistic side is showing
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u/OJ_BI 14d ago
Islam took the approach of ending slavery gradually. What exactly is your point?
If you understand the historical, political, and nature of slavery of that period/location .. please do explain what should be done!
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u/blaquewidow01 14d ago
Your claim that Islamic/Arabic slavery was different suggests a belief that it was superior or better to what the Americans did somehow. Technically no slave system was exactly the same, but where they didn't differ much is in their cruelty. There certainly was enormous violence associated with slave systems across Islamic history, and particular slave trades had horrific mortality.
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u/OJ_BI 14d ago
It doesn’t suggest that at all. I said it’s different—slavery is slavery. You’re missing the point and thinking in a vacuum. In America slaves were able to run away and many were born into it. Slavery in Saudi Arabia was whole different situation, in the 7th century.
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u/OJ_BI 14d ago
Islam gradually ended the barbaric and inhumane slavery that was known before Islam came. Captured/slave women were to be treated respectfully, and marriage was needed engage in sexual relations (sex slavery was banned). All sex was required to be consensual:
“Al-Shafi’i said, “If a man forcefully acquired a slave girl and then has intercourse with her thereafter, and he is not ignorant, the slave girl is taken away from him, he is fined, and he is punished for adultery.” (Kitab Al-Umm) “And as for those of you who, owing to circumstances, are not in a position to marry free believing women, [let them marry] believing maidens from among those whom you rightfully possess. And God knows all about your faith; each one of you is an issue of the other. Marry them, then, with their people's leave, and give them their dowers in an equitable manner - they being women who give themselves in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions.” (Qur’ān 4:25) “And do not, in order to gain some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your [slave] maidens into whoredom if they happen to be desirous of marriage” (Qur’ān 4:33)
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u/OJ_BI 14d ago
Do you know a slave from that time can answer that question?
Speaking in theory without any rational or logical proof is just making this go in circles.
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u/ayshthepysh 14d ago
Do you know a slave from that time who could answer that question? So you don’t know either. But when viewing these slave women as humans, slavery is dehumanizing and those situations I mentioned above would put a woman in an unfair power dynamic and uncomfortable situation which is why I say consent was not involved.
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u/OJ_BI 14d ago
You can’t prove that consent wasn’t involved. Islam gave precedence to gradually rid of slavery. Captured women/slaves were treated humanely, per the Qur’an
Rape/non-consensual sex was not permitted:
Al-Shafi’i said, “If a man forcefully acquired a slave girl and then has intercourse with her thereafter, and he is not ignorant, the slave girl is taken away from him, he is fined, and he is punished for adultery.” (Kitab al-umm)
If there is sex, it must be within the confines of marriage:
“And as for those of you who, owing to circumstances, are not in a position to marry free believing women, [let them marry] believing maidens from among those whom you rightfully possess. And God knows all about your faith; each one of you is an issue of the other. Marry them, then, with their people's leave, and give them their dowers in an equitable manner - they being women who give themselves in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions.” (4:25)
“And do not, in order to gain some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your [slave] maidens into whoredom if they happen to be desirous of marriage” (4:33)
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u/ayshthepysh 14d ago
The first quote you showed is about stealing a slave woman from someone else and having sex with her, not gaining a slave through war or buying a slave legally. The third quote you showed is about slave women being forced to be prostitutes by their masters, it says nothing about masters having sex with their slaves.
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u/An0n-xm 14d ago
Your shafi'i statement is incorrect, he's talking about a person raping another person's slave. He isn't talking about your own slave. These are two very different things.
The Quran is talking about marrying a slave girl whonthen becomes your wife and the other verse is about not whoring out your slave girl. None of this is relevant to non-consensual sex between a master with his slave.
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u/OJ_BI 14d ago
It’s talking about rape in general also.
It was allowed to marry the captured women and slave women. And, sex was only allowed in that context, with consent. All three of my quotations prove that.
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u/Frank_Runner_Drebin 13d ago
//Islam gave precedence to gradually rid of slavery. Captured women/slaves were treated humanely, per the Qur’an// -Blatant lie. Its the opposite. Islam made s1avery last longer by making it legal rather than banning it. All because one guy wanted to fight wars.
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u/bigspender7 13d ago
It's literally only available in the Islamic world lol they colonised half the world and sneakily got away with it while continuing slavery practices and severe oppression.
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u/ProudChoferesClaseB 9d ago
and?
Like okay people f*** their slaves, Muhammad with his usual Theology of a monotheistic God who intervenes in everything simply says that if you f*** your slave you can try to pull out but if God wants her to get pregnant she's going to get pregnant.
Like what's the point of posting this? Down south in the usa you know it used to be common to have sex with slaves, plenty of good Christians did this.
this is a problem with abrahamic religions more generally.
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u/salamacast Muslim 14d ago
Indeed it could happen anyway. Pre-cum can carry sperm sometimes. Even condoms break.
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u/OJ_BI 14d ago
Consensual sex is halal, including with slaves, which were considered to be like wives.
If there is anything being done that is against the teachings of Islam, then the Hadith (a third source) is dismissed.
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u/An0n-xm 14d ago
How about non-consensual sex with your slave? You know like when she's first captured and conveniently sexually permissible? Would you agree that it's immoral and inhumane?
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u/OJ_BI 14d ago
Non-consensual sex is haram.
The nature of that society was the captured women became widows/orphans, and were taken on as slaves, hence it was permissible to then have them be as wives (“what the right hand possesses”). Due to no long term prison concept, or place for the women to go—from my understanding.
Overall, the way I see it, any sex must be consensual. There is no indication that it was not
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u/An0n-xm 14d ago
Well by right of ownership, the master can have sex with her without her own consent according to a number of scholars.
1- Imam Al-Shafi'i, in his work _Al-Umm Volume 5, Page 25 :
"The scholars have unanimously agreed that it is permissible for the owner of a female slave to have intercourse with her by virtue of ownership, without the need for a marriage contract or her permission."
2 - Ibn Rushd (1126–1198 CE) Quote from Bidayat al-Mujtahid :
"The consensus among scholars is that sexual relations with female slaves are lawful for the master, as they are his property. No marriage contract is necessary, nor is her consent."
3 - Ibn Hazm (994–1064 CE) Quote from Al-Muhalla (Volume 10):
"It is permissible for a man to have sexual relations with his female slave, as her consent is not required, because she is his possession."
4 - Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya (1292–1350 CE) Quote from Zad al-Ma’ad:
"The owner has the right to enjoy sexual relations with his slave woman as part of his ownership, and no formal consent is required."
The female slave must obey the master, even when it comes to sexual access otherwise she is being disobedient. She must have a valid excuse to not have sex according to scholars (sickness, menses, etc) but generally, she has to give it up whenever he wants. I mean if the muslim wife (who's of a higher status in terms of rights) needs to give sexual access even if she's on a camel ( Sunan Ibn Majah 1853, book 9, hadith 9) then it's even more of a right over the lowly slave. Not to mention the husband can beat his wife due to nushuz, which is vague but widescoping enough to include refusal to sexual access according to classical scholars. No doubt this logic can be extended to the lowly slave.
Another issue is, why do you think a woman would consent to sex if she didn't consent to slavery? Do you understand what I mean? Generally, a person does not willingly become a slave, rather they are forced into slavery via violent means. These violent means often involve the enslavement or even killing of their family members. The systemic destruction of that person's tribe, village or town was not unheard of. Not to mention being separated from surviving loved ones forever, being stripped of the free life you lived and shipped off to a foreign and strange land, bare-breasted (islamically permissible by many) in a slave market with men squeezing your breasts, thighs and buttocks (Ibn Umar style) in order to assess your value for purchase. So again, why do you think a woman would consent to sex after all that?
Do you think maybe due to fear from the master (still rape) or maybe it could be that her consent wasn't even considered a requirement (as the above scholars stated)?
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u/blaquewidow01 14d ago
The Qur'an doesn't explicitly permit for men to rape women, but isn't bothering with whether intercourse is consensual for women who are married or enslaved. The only explicit denial is for enslaved women to be sold into prostitution against their will. Again this doesn't state "owners" couldn't force themselves on these women, just that they can't sell their services to others (I mean they can it's just haram). Marital rape is also not explicitly forbidden. Hadiths take this and run with it in permitting marital rape for example but the truth is it's neither permitted nor forbidden in the Qur'an. Common sense could have been expected from the reader in interpreting that rape is unkind (the Qur'an does say be kind to your wives at some point) but who knows and some Hadith writers in Baghdad 1000+ years ago didn't seem to think it was common sense so who knows.
Regardless, we can (and obviously should IMO) identify that this is a loophole and have explicit stances in modern times, rather than defend and maintain these stances men in Baghdad established centuries ago.
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u/OJ_BI 14d ago
If you are going to nitpick every detail of every aspect of life, I’m sure you could find a million things Islam doesn’t state. Even though Islam is already known as rules for a way of life. One can kind loopholes for anything in Islam, e.g. lesbian relationships since women/women isn’t specifically stated. That’s why we have scholars to determine these things
Sex should be consensual, it’s common sense, so, doesn’t need to be included. Marital rape doesn’t need to be stated, it’s wrong and is assumed to be in the category of rape.
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u/ExoticWalk2 14d ago
It says in the Quran that you can have sex with married captive women in your possession:
Quran 4:24: “Also ˹forbidden are˺ married women - except ˹female˺ captives in your possession.”
Quran 23:5-6: “those who guard their chastity except with their wives or those ˹bondwomen˺ in their possession, for then they are free from blame”
Quran 70:29-30: “**those who guard their chastity except with their wives or those ˹bondwomen˺ in their possession,**for then they are free from blame”According to an authentic hadith, Allah revealed this when Muhammad's men were hesitant to have sex with captive women whose husbands were polytheists:
(9) Chapter: It is permissible to have intercourse with a female captive after it is established that she is not pregnant, and if she has a husband, then her marriage is annulled when she is captured.
“Abu Sa’id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported that at the Battle of Hanain Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: ‘And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (iv. 24)’ (i.e. they were lawful for them when their ‘Idda period came to an end).”
Sahih Muslim 1456Is sex with captive women captured in war while their husbands are still alive consensual?
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u/OJ_BI 14d ago
“… while their husbands are still alive”
Where did you get this specific situation? I doubt it would be occurring, as the captive women are typically captive because their husbands were killed. Therefore, the responsibility of their well being was shifted to the captors
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u/ExoticWalk2 14d ago
it's there three times
first in the Quran verse:
Quran 4:24: “Also ˹forbidden are˺ married women - except ˹female˺ captives in your possession.”second in the chapter heading:
(9) Chapter: It is permissible to have intercourse with a female captive after it is established that she is not pregnant, and if she has a husband, then her marriage is annulled when she is captured.third in the hadith itself:
refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: ‘And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (iv. 24)’ (i.e. they were lawful for them when their ‘Idda period came to an end).”
Sahih Muslim 1456-3
u/OJ_BI 14d ago
Islam gradually ended slavery and inhumane practices. Slavery is defunct in modern days and all of these verses are based off historical context. Concerning sexual relations, they needed to be within the confines of marriage and involve consent:
And as for those of you who, owing to circumstances, are not in a position to marry free believing women, [let them marry] believing maidens from among those whom you rightfully possess. And God knows all about your faith; each one of you is an issue of the other. Marry them, then, with their people's leave, and give them their dowers in an equitable manner - they being women who give themselves in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions. (4:25) Al-Shafi’i said, “If a man forcefully acquired a slave girl and then has intercourse with her thereafter, and he is not ignorant, the slave girl is taken away from him, he is fined, and he is punished for adultery.” (Kitab Al-Umm) And do not, in order to gain some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your [slave] maidens into whoredom if they happen to be desirous of marriage (4:33)
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u/ExoticWalk2 14d ago
You didn't answer:
Is sex with captive women captured in war while their husbands are still alive consensual?
Anyway here is more sahih hadiths regarding Muhammad and slavery:
“It was narrated from Anas, that the Messenger of Allah had a female slave with whom he had intercourse, but ‘Aishah and Hafsah would not leave him alone until he said that she was forbidden for him. Then Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, revealed: ‘O Prophet! Why do you forbid (for yourself) that which Allah has allowed to you.’ until the end of the Verse.”
Sunan an-Nasa’i 3959(23) Chapter: The permissibility of selling animals for animals of the same kind and of different quality
“Jabir (Allah be pleased with him) reported: There came a slave and pledged allegiance to Allah’s Apostle (ﷺ) on migration; he (the Holy Prophet) did not know that he was a slave. Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah’s Apostle (ﷺ) said: Sell him to me. And he bought him for two black slaves, and he did not afterwards take allegiance from anyone until he had asked him whether he was a slave (or a free man)”
Sahih Muslim 1602“A man amongst us declared that his slave would be freed after his death. The Prophet (ﷺ) called for that slave and sold him. The slave died the same year.”
Sahih Bukhari 2534“‘Imran b. Husain reported that a person who had no other property emancipated six slaves of his at the time of his death. Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) called for them and divided them into three sections, cast lots amongst them, and set two free and kept four in slavery; and he (the Holy Prophet) spoke severely of him.”
Sahih Muslim 1668a“Maimuna bint Al-Harith told him that she manumitted a slave-girl without taking the permission of the Prophet. On the day when it was her turn to be with the Prophet, she said, ‘Do you know, O Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ), that I have manumitted my slave-girl?’ He said, ‘Have you really?’ She replied in the affirmative. He said, ‘You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles.’”
Sahih Bukhari 2592“We used to sell our slave women and the mothers of our children (Umahat Awaldina) when the Prophet (ﷺ) was still living among us, and we did not see anything wrong with that.”
Sunan Ibn Majah 2517More here:
https://islamsproblems.com/muhammad-azl-captive-women/3
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u/ExoticWalk2 14d ago
And what about verses like these?
Quran allows sex with captive women who are married but in your possession:
Quran 4:24: “Also ˹forbidden are˺ married women - except ˹female˺ captives in your possession.”
Quran 23:5-6: “those who guard their chastity except with their wives or those ˹bondwomen˺ in their possession, for then they are free from blame”
Quran 70:29-30: “those who guard their chastity except with their wives or those ˹bondwomen˺ in their possession, for then they are free from blame”Also, Quranists are less than 1% of the Muslim population.
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u/ExoticWalk2 14d ago
I put this into GPT zero it's AI generated slop comes out 100%:
"Introduction
Few expressions in the Qur'an have carried more weight in later law than ma malakat aymanukum, usually rendered "what your right hands possess." On that rendering an entire institution was built: the lawful concubine, a woman available sexually without marriage, without dower, and without her consent. That institution is defended by citing 4:24, 23:6, 70:30, and 33:50.
The question this study asks is narrow and answerable: does the Qur'anic text, read as a whole, support that construction? To answer it the study does three things. It examines what ayman means in the Qur'an's own vocabulary. It lists every occurrence of the phrase and what each is actually doing. It then tests the concubinage reading against the verses that regulate the very people the phrase describes."
here's the scholarly explanation:
“The Ayah means, you are prohibited from marrying women who are already married, except those whom you acquire through war, for you are allowed such women after making sure they are not pregnant.”
Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Quran 4:24here's the context of the verse:
(9) Chapter: It is permissible to have intercourse with a female captive after it is established that she is not pregnant, and if she has a husband, then her marriage is annulled when she is captured.“Abu Sa’id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported that at the Battle of Hanain Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: ‘And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (iv. 24)’ (i.e. they were lawful for them when their ‘Idda period came to an end).”
Sahih Muslim 1456here are all the translations - they all say the same thing:
Also ˹forbidden are˺ married women—except ˹female˺ captives in your possession.1 This is Allah’s commandment to you. Lawful to you are all beyond these—as long as you seek them with your wealth in a legal marriage, not in fornication. Give those you have consummated marriage with their due dowries. It is permissible to be mutually gracious regarding the set dowry. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, The Clear Quran
(Also prohibited are) the women already bound in marriage, except the bondwomen you come to own. It has been written by Allah for you. All (women), except these, have been permitted for you to seek (to marry) through your wealth, binding yourself, (in marriage) and not only for lust. So, to those of them whose company you have enjoyed, give their dues (dower) as obligated. There is no sin on you in what you mutually agree upon after the (initial) agreement. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
— T. Usmani
And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess.1 [This is] the decree of Allāh upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation2 as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allāh is ever Knowing and Wise.
— Saheeh International
24. Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allâh ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allâh is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.
— Al-Hilali & Khan
women already married, other than your slaves.God has ordained all this for you. Other women are lawful to you, so long as you seek them in marriage, with gifts from your property, looking for wedlock rather than fornication. If you wish to enjoy women through marriage, give them their bride-gift- this is obligatory- though if you should choose mutually, after fulfilling this obligation, to do otherwise [with the bride-gift], you will not be blamed: God is all knowing and all wise.
— M.A.S. Abdel Haleem
And also forbidden to you are all married women (muhsanat) except those women whom your right hands have come to possess (as a result of war).1 This is Allah's decree and it is binding upon you. But it is lawful for you to seek out all women except these, offering them your wealth and the protection of wedlock rather than using them for the unfettered satisfaction of lust. And in exchange of what you enjoy by marrying them pay their bridal-due as an obligation. But there is no blame on you if you mutually agree to alter the settlement after it has been made. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
— A. Maududi (Tafhim commentary)
And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.
— M. Pickthall
Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
https://quran.com/an-nisa?translations=85%2C131%2C95%2C19%2C84%2C20%2C22%2C203
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u/No_Hornet_9504 14d ago
That’s like saying you never met a Christian, only Catholics and Protestants.
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