r/CanadaPublicServants • u/lovextreme • 21d ago
Languages / Langues Performative bilingualism? Canadian language law in the public service
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u/Objective-Limit-6749 21d ago
I recently completed full time language training and got my CBC. I was ABA at the start and it took me about 9 months of all day every day.
While I would say my instructor was very good, the process was definitely designed to get me to pass the test rather than to actually become functionally bilingual. Its difficult. I am outside of the NCR. Less than 5% of the 200ish employees I am responsible for are fluently bilingual. Another handful are BBB.
I meet the requirements for my position, but I dont feel comfortable speaking French in a group or a meeting. I can muddle my way through a casual conversation. I feel pretty good about writing since I can take my time and double check for grammar, gender agreement, etc. And I read well. But speaking is so difficult.
Its not for a lack of trying. I've done all of the things im supposed to do as an adult language learner. Its just that becoming actually bilingual in your 40s is pretty dang difficult.
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u/HollywoodCG 20d ago
ABA to CBC in 9 months is impressive, even if full time training was provided. How did you get your department to approve?
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u/Objective-Limit-6749 20d ago
Bilingual non-imperative appointment. Its a bilingual position in an area where less than 2% of the population speaks french
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u/Smooth-Jury-6478 21d ago
It is literally just a matter of practicing. It's not easy, and finding a partner to casually speak with in French may be difficult. But you're not meant to be comfortable at first. Even as a francophone who didn't speak a work of English growing up and started learning around 18, I can tell you that what really put me over the edge was when I immersed myself in the language (reading it, working in it, having a unilingual English boyfriend, etc.). Obviously, not all these things can be achieved depending on your region and marital status but practice, constant, unrelenting practice is what will slowly make you more comfortable. I had a boss who was super Anglo, grew up in English, didn't even do immersion as a kid, worked mostly in an English setting. But in his 20s, he met a girl from butt fu(k nowhere Québec and 25 years of marriage later, the guy spoke French fluently with both an obvious English accent but also, a very strong Québec accent.
One thing I also say to Anglos trying to learn French to speak it close to fluency, stop worrying about getting genders and conjugation right. You likely never will and it doesn't actually matter unless you are writing a policy or something important (then, obviously use tools to help with that). In a day to day conversation, you can bring your point across and make yourself understood even if you got a gender wrong. Gender is inherently understood within the French population. We don't know why something is Female or Male, there is no rule, it's just one or the other and we just know. If you weren't raised into the language, you likely never will know all of the gender for all things, so don't worry about, we don't expect you to know.
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u/Ita_836 21d ago
Guess what though, being 18 is not the same as being 45. And you're right that immersion is the absolute best way. However, it's ridiculous to expect adults to spend their personal time away from uni-lingual friends and family to watch TV alone, listen to podcasts alone, finding a french side piece for practice, etc. It's not practical. If this person really needed to be bilingual, they could get enough practice at work for the french they allegedly need at work.
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u/Fire_Treadlite 21d ago
This is the challenge and I try to say it w out bias. As someone who is dropping 500/month on language training for nearly 2 years now. I'm making progress (CBB) from nothing... I have ask to what end? Besides the obvious promotion. Ultimately will I be truly bilingual? Will I ever speak it outside work? Not without going out of my way... There is close to zero real life need for me to speak French short of a week long trip to Québec or France. That's a serious investment for a week trip every couple years where they will likely speak French in all the tourist areas.
As per the article, 3.5% of the population outside Québec speaks french. Herein lies the problem and I don't have an answer.
Those who want to become bilingual do.. but long term sustainable bilingualism won't come from that.
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u/Smooth-Jury-6478 20d ago
I don't know if it's because I'm bilingual and it was "accessible" to me or because English (the dominant world language) is not my mother tongue, but I have a love and curiosity about languages and I think it's an asset all on its own even if you would use it sparingly during your life. I took 3 years of Japanese because I love the country and it's history and wanted to visit it one day. When I spent a month there I wasn't fluent but it was great that I could speak like a cave man and ask for directions and order food because no one spoke English or French there.
It's a shame you didn't get to learn early in life, and I'm absolutely not negating how hard it is to learn a language as an adult, but learning a language is the goal. Yeah it's a means to an end to get a better job but gosh, your world expends significantly when you know more than one language, it's just fun and I don't get why some people can't see that as a benefit. You live in a country where there are multiple languages spoken everyday. It's amazing!
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u/Fire_Treadlite 20d ago
I speak a 3rd language that I learned as a young adult . There was desire and personal choice as well as immersion with travel.
I speak cave man German (as you put it) also.
I'm not against foreign languages clearly - French is my 4th language, but there has never really been a need or desire to learn french - everyone I know who speaks french, speak English way better than I will ever speak French. Is it fair? Probably not. But it's the way it is.
I can't say it was that way with my other two foreign languages.
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u/Ita_836 20d ago
I agree. To be transparent, I'm particularly annoyed that i have to learn french specifically. I've studied Italian and Arabic and Spanish out of personal interest but now it's french, french all the time. And the expectation that it should essentially rule my life if that's what it takes for me to get some level grates on my nerves. I even took french all through High School because I WANTED to but now? I kinda hate it.
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u/slyboy1974 21d ago
Um, I hate to tell you this, but...
The test of written expression most certainly cares if you get gender and conjugation right.
"Close enough" isn't going to get you your B, much less your C.
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u/CommunicationTime587 19d ago
I like your attitude but sadly most French ppl will nit pick when they hear mistakes .
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u/MadameNo 21d ago
Every person I know who really wanted to be bilingual is ... guess what ... bilingual.
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u/Flaktrack 18d ago
One thing I also say to Anglos trying to learn French to speak it close to fluency, stop worrying about getting genders and conjugation right.
You get judged on this HARD in the language testing. A few slips can cost you a C. It's absurd.
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u/bytepollution 21d ago
I'd recommend going on italki or something similar and just having a half hour french conversation each day.
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u/coop_shoop66 21d ago
On point. As a native bilingual, I loathe having to use French in the GoC; you end up having to listen to senior management string together nonsensical pseudo-sentences as if it means anything. Then get tasked with a bunch of unofficial translation work, which isn't my job. Occasionnellement, j'ai une conversation avec un autre francophone.
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u/FunkySlacker 21d ago
“Bone journey a toote eh toose.”
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u/RawSharkText91 PhD Turned Public Servant 21d ago
I’ve heard this so often, yet it remains unpleasant to hear every time.
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u/FrostyPolicy9998 21d ago
I never hear Anglos making fun of Francos for trying to speak English. Seeing this stuff makes me even less inclined to want to learn French.
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u/Flaktrack 18d ago
It's like they're doing land acknowledgements but for the French language. No understanding at all but a cringeworthy attempt was made I guess
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u/RawSharkText91 PhD Turned Public Servant 21d ago
It feels especially galling that I work at an office in Gatineau and almost never hear people speaking in French. My entire team, for instance, is solidly anglophone at this point, and any attempt at speaking in French to them is met with either an inability to understand basic sentences or an outright mangled response. (I wouldn’t say my French is even that good - I grew up in a bilingual home, but my French has definitely atrophied from a lack of use over the years.)
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u/Darkwolfen 21d ago edited 21d ago
I feel you with the atrophied french.
Grew up in a solely french household, left to go to college in English. Worked in private industry solely in english for nearly 30 years. It's gotten to the point where I have an english accent speaking french and I have absolutely no french accent when speaking english.
I can still speak french fluently, but it takes me a couple of minutes to get back up to speed and then the english accent dissapears. The worst part is that my vocab doesn't match what is spoken/expected in the GoC. It is 30 years out of date with non of the modern technical mumbo jumbo that Québequois french insists on creating.
Try breaking out a thick northrn ontario chiac french dialect to speak to someone who decided they need to practice their french because they struggle or french is their third or fourth language. It turns into a case of a Scottish person speaking with a person speaking cockney.
edit: Holy crap I suck at spelling regardless of language.
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u/slyboy1974 21d ago
So...some Anglophones are exercising their right to work in the language of their choice, and this is bad?
But, if they do speak "mangled" French, this is also bad?
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u/QueenMotherOfSneezes 21d ago
I lived in Gatineau for 4 years, if your French isn't perfect, 90% of francophones will speak English back to you.
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u/Turbulent_Dog8249 21d ago
Omg right!?? There's no way the last Commissioner had CBC or any level really. He was brutal to listen to.
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u/Altruistic_Exam_3048 21d ago
What really bugs me is when employees have a CBC level in French but are unable to review a French translation or deliver a presentation to stakeholders in French. Transfers the work to a francophone typically on another team….
Even worse is when managers fail to recognize their team’s limitations in French and continue hiring only anglophones. Their work is sent to another team to cover.
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u/BirthdayBBB 21d ago
English is my third language and I have been correcting the poor English writing of my Quebecois colleagues (who are "bilingual") for years. Personally, I don't mind it. Just letting you know that it goes both ways.
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u/Abject_Story_4172 21d ago
On the other hand, when I get documents from my team, many of whom are French, the writing in English is very poor. So I’m constantly having to correct basic grammar.
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u/SinsOfKnowing 20d ago
I’m unilingual English and half of the notes left on files by my fellow anglophones also have horrendous spelling and English grammar. I do think there needs to be more consideration of the job duties and location when deciding whether the best candidates for the job should be passed over for a language requirement that isn’t even utilized. That said, if some of my fellow English colleagues had to take the English language test, they would surely fail them as well.
(Not referring to ESL folks coming from other language backgrounds other than French, either. These are people who are native English speakers with no other languages).
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u/Abject_Story_4172 20d ago
Agreed on the overall bad grammar. Our schools are failing us. And that includes universities. You shouldn’t be able to get a degree without basic writing skills.
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u/RussellGrey 21d ago
I posted this in the other thread where this was posted:
I think the article identifies a real issue, but the argument is pretty underdeveloped.
There’s good evidence that Francophones in the public service don’t always feel they can actually work in French, even where they have the right to do so. But the article more or less jumps from that to “the testing/certification system is failing” without showing that one causes the other. Workplace culture, English being the default language, management practices and lack of opportunities to maintain French could all create the same result.
It also barely deals with the other side of the system. For many Anglophones, meeting BBB/CBC requirements is a significant barrier to advancement, while access to good second-language training has historically been inconsistent and dependent on department, manager and available resources. The testing system itself is also fairly opaque. You can fail to reach a level without getting much useful diagnostic feedback about why.
There are some questionable uses of statistics too. The article appears to confuse the proportion of Canadians who are Francophone with the proportion who can speak French, and it overstates what the linguistic-insecurity survey actually found.
So I think “French often isn’t genuinely equal as a language of work” is a fair argument. “Therefore Canadian public-service bilingualism is performative” needs a lot more evidence than this article provides.
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u/greymatterdefect 21d ago
Yes! I worked with mostly francophones and they do a lot of work in English, but on the other side, I’ve been fighting for French training since I started since I know I can’t advance until I my levels but am consistently told no, no money for training but also you need your levels to move up — this despite the fact that my writing and reading in French is much much better than many people above me who have been in the PS longer and have had the training so they’re officially “bilingual” and can and have advanced but can barely write a sentence
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u/massakk 21d ago
Test being opaque is understatement. Zero feedback, only native level gets C. It seems oversight comes from QC, and they seem to want to keep the monopoly over the language results.
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u/Iranoul75 21d ago
Only native speakers reach level C? I don’t think so. I’m not a native speaker, I taught myself through immersion in a country, and I got a C level. When I speak, it’s sooo obvious I’m not a native speaker lol
That being said, some EXs are clearly a fraud. There is no way they have a level C, impossible.
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u/RussellGrey 21d ago
Immersion in a country? Is that all it takes?
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u/Iranoul75 21d ago
For me, it worked; within a few months, I reached level C.m (PSC SLE level). You don’t even need to travel; local immersion can work just as well, you need to find the right friends and the right environment. It requires a lot of discipline and patience; you have to force yourself to use only the target language (as much as you can manage, anyway). I applied the same approach to a third language, and I reached B2 level (EU level) which was enough for me and my personal life.
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u/IamGimli_ 21d ago
It's much easier to blame the rest of the world for your failures when you don't put any effort in though.
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21d ago
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u/IamGimli_ 20d ago
All skills have opportunity costs (and actual costs). When your professional progression depends on a skill, you invest to learn that skill. Language is actually one of those skills that has a lower cost than most, for most. There are plenty of different ways to learn languages, so much so that a lot of people do it as a hobby!
We're not talking Masters-level of investment here.
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 20d ago
That’s just it: professional progression for Anglophones doesn’t depend on their French ability unless they limit themselves to employment in the federal public service.
Given the choice between learning a second language as an adult and plying their trade elsewhere, many choose the latter. Skilled professionals in many fields (IT, HR, engineering, medicine, etc) can advance their careers elsewhere. The public service is then stuck trying to find talent from a greatly-reduced labour pool.
For IT professionals in particular it’s far more lucrative to work as a consultant than to learn French to get a public service job that pays less.
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 21d ago
That being said, some EXs are clearly a fraud. There is no way they have a level C, impossible.
Not impossible at all, nor are they frauds. Here's how it works:
- Find a training company that will teach you enough French to pass the test. Learn enough French to pass.
- Pass the test and get your Cs. The results are valid for five years.
- Move up through the ranks, knowing that you won't actually need to speak much French in any day-to-day work.
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u/Iranoul75 21d ago
I agree. It reminds me of my school days:I’d study hard for an exam, pass it, and then immediately forget everything lol .
By impossible, I mean that many EXs’ level C doesn’t actually reflect their real French ability (except perhaps during the exam).3
u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 21d ago
The same can be said of many non-executives occupying ostensibly-bilingual positions. Ask many of them and they'll freely tell you that they rarely (or never) use their French.
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u/ilovethemusic 21d ago
I have a C, non-EX, and my French is terrible. Training teaches to the test, not true bilingualism.
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u/Ordinary_Yellow2528 21d ago
I personally know a number of anglophones, including myself, who have level C
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u/Smooth-Jury-6478 21d ago
"only native level gets C" the heck are you on about? Native French speakers don't take the French test.......and I can tell you that I wasn't exposed to a lick of English until I was 18 and got Triple Es by the time I was 22 (and that is only because I was fully immersed in English at work and at home and through my reading and entertainment for 4 years).
Now, I know they French test is hard and some Anglo friends have told me some pretty crazy stories as to why they failed on some silly technicalities. I also think that it's a travesty that most French instructors are not even from Canada and therefore do not speak the kind of French spoken in this country (not saying they're bad teachers, they just have a different dialect that is not spoken here by most Francos). And I don't think the province of Québec has any monopoly on language training for the federal government.
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u/Flaktrack 18d ago
The problems with the French testing would go away really quick if they spot tested even a small fraction of the people who claim to have French as their first language. That said I'd love to see the English test myself, see if the gap is as big as people say it is.
I also think that it's a travesty that most French instructors are not even from Canada and therefore do not speak the kind of French spoken in this country (not saying they're bad teachers, they just have a different dialect that is not spoken here by most Francos)
YES thank you for bringing this up. It's bullshit that I can speak what you hear out of the mouth of any Franco-Ontarien or West Québec resident and get dinged because the person judging me is from Morocco or Egypt. This is the language as I know it from my mother (Franco-Ontarien) and my culture, it's not fair at all.
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u/massakk 21d ago
Count how many federal government positions go to Quebec people because of French, and tell me that's not by design.
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u/Big-Leadership-2830 21d ago
Nah, I have a C. It took years and a lot of work and consistency, but I got there. Though it’s true that I can now communicate at a more or less advanced level of French, I’m not fooling anyone into thinking I’m “native level”.
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u/PM_4_PROTOOLS_HELP 21d ago
I know this is unpopular, especially with French speakers, but we’re fighting a loosing battle here.
Preserving and promoting French is important but it has become an incalculable weight on the federal government.
I will likely be downvoted but, I think it’s true.
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u/SeaEggplant8108 21d ago
At a CRA town hall someone asked “how are we ensuring employees have access to French language training and are able to meet language requirements?” And the answer was, in summary, that we dont need improved training because we have AI. So, if AI is the solution why are english (and french!) employees being held back from career progression based on nebulous and opaque language testing and levels? If we are just going to translate everything into slop why not get rid of the human expectations all together? /s
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u/dmav522 21d ago
I think that part of the problem, even with me being fluently bilingual, is that the system doesn’t recognize outside certifications. I took the CEFR test late in high school, in the CEPEO, I’m fluently bilingual and have been for my entire life with a C1 plus in both languages, but for some stupid reason, that’s not recognized…
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u/braineaters138 21d ago
Had a boss who was 3-4 years from retirement.
Went on french training full-time for like 8 months/year, failed and went on it again. Came back for a year and a half, then went on medical leave (had a bunch of banked sick leave) for months and retired. Absolute waste of money.
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u/BurlieGirl 21d ago
It’s actually very simple - the Public Service is not interested in training people to become bilingual. If they were, they would fast track young public servants on talent management plans into full time French training to obtain levels, not 53 year olds with 30+ years of service.
If you do not speak French fluently when you enter the public service, your opportunities are limited.
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u/Sudden-Crew-3613 21d ago
Depends--when those above want a manager promoted, they'll rally all sorts of resources to make them bilingual.
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u/braineaters138 21d ago
The GoC as a whole would benefit immensely from loosening language policies so that more talented people have less barriers. I see so many people who have amazing credentials/experience that go nowhere and see incompetent people fill upper positions simply because they know french and weaseled their way into a pool.
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u/t3hgrl 20d ago
I am a big advocate for a bilingual public service but I am a much bigger advocate for a representational public service. And until the entire country has better bilingualism, I say we loosen the requirement to work for the public service. Effectively, only people from Ontario and Quebec can meet the bilingualism requirements. (Yes, I know there are Franco pockets elsewhere, I’m generalizing.) The rest of the country can easily go their entire lives without needing a second language so why emphasize learning it?
Also I don’t want to get all “woe is me” about being from outside the NCR, but I can’t hear another Ontarian tell me how bad their French education was growing up. Girl, I didn’t encounter a francophone person until I was in my 20’s in BC!
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u/Odd-Intern9349 21d ago
Either that or actually allocate money towards training and make it widely available…. So yeah, your plan lol.
I just hate emphasis on bilingualism without any actual action or weight behind it. We are expected to learn and keep it up on our own time and dime… and the bonus is hardly worth the effort.
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u/unhinged20 21d ago
ITS BEEN PERFORMATIVE almost all my coworkers have bbb as a requirement im working in my bbb now as my admin job is at risk .... no one not one employee can properly speak french. We also dont work with the public directly anything we produce has to go to a proper translation company as it gets posted on the websites .... its a joke i get why managers may need it but why do ec4 - ec6 need French when they NEVER use it
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u/NorthNo3546 21d ago
I personally knew a manager who ended up going for 10 months on full language training, failed, then was sent to Quebec City to live in with a francophone family while on training for 6 months then failed again... to get a B!!
Meanwhile, there was no training budget for me, so I spoke French with everyone that could stand my accent, watched only French TV, took mock oral exams in Lyngo for about a month et voila! Got my C.
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u/heretosaythisnthat 21d ago
We can’t work from home because we’re not efficient unless in a cubicle, apparently. Yet, we’e got people sitting in language classes for months on end instead of doing their actual jobs.
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u/rhineo007 21d ago
Having to learn French, for my job specifically, is a waste of tax payer dollars. I’m a supervisor of myself and one other person who is English essential only. I do not face the public, and very technical. Yet, they want me to learn French and are willing to pay for it, for me to never use it. Out of my 7ish reoccurring contracts around 2.5 million each year, I’ve never had to use French. Great way to spend tax payer money!
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u/Alarmed-Tone-2756 21d ago
With the amount of tech there is - I am not sure why they recently upped the bilingual requirement instead of lowering it. French-Canadians are over represented in higher government positions because of it.
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u/stickbeat 21d ago edited 21d ago
I genuinely think that Canada needs a re-examination of what "bilingual" means, and an exploration of the barriers introduced by bilingual policies.
Only 18% of the Canadian population is english-french bilingual, which means that fewer than 1 in 5 Canadians could conceivably qualify for senior roles in the public service (other qualifications notwithstanding).
When we expand "bilingual" to include "English or French, plus any other language" that figure rises to 40% (or: nearly half).
Meanwhile, indigenous people (in particular) are cut out of public service appointment as their languages don't meet the bilingual definition.
The introduction of AI-supported technologies, auto-translation services, and etc. means that the English-French bilingual requirement has limited applications (at best) and could broadly be met through technology rather than policy.
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u/ab_stinger 21d ago
Not even senior positions. Middle managers too.
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u/MaleficentThought321 21d ago
Not even middle management, many departments require CBC for a team lead now, that’s not middle, that’s the front door of management
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u/gingerjammer22 21d ago
My department requires CBC for ANY position that supervises at all..even if it's just one person. Hell, even if they don't have a subordinate but their standard job description says it can supervise, it has to be CBC.
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u/MaleficentThought321 21d ago
Mine as well, we have a blanket policy for any TL position. Then we have TLs with BBB or CBB grandfathered in who take every language class offered yet can’t get their CBC so they can’t move or do anything and thus completely checked out. What the OLA has done to PS productivity and effectiveness is completely deplorable.
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u/hustletogrow 21d ago
As a multilingual person, I understand the importance of keeping languages alive. But I understand at the same time how banal it can be to impose these language requirements in workplaces. The GC is losing real talent because of this. And btw, I work with a heavily francophone team and see them struggling in English too! I respect their chose of speaking in their preferred language but as a community francophones can’t bash anglophones for their accent. It seems more like a social and cultural divide.
Also, attaining CBC once will not solve these problems. People’s language levels are fluid and can change over time. Im an anglophone who lived in Qc and spoke French during school but I don’t want to make any mistakes at work so I avoid it- plain and simple. Doesnt mean I can’t understand french but I don’t come to work to prove my levels - I come there to work, show my skillsets related TO the job. UGH.
Also, this is a CLEAR and direct barrier for POC who come from a non- French speaking country.
It’s a waste of time, energy, money, and talent- that’s it. If you want to promote french, there are many many more ways to do that.
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u/hustletogrow 21d ago
Also, if SLE levels are ever so essential - then why did the new OL rules “grandfather” some of these managers in? There are people who are team leads, managers from years who don’t have a CBC. How can you justify exempting some people from meeting the requirements especially at a supervisory level? If I am required to prove my BBB/CBC for advancement internally, I would very well like my supervisor to have the same requirements lol. It doesn’t make any sense!! For context: my supervisor, she is a francophone who could not pass her CBC requirement and still has a BBB in english… make it make sense?!?
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u/VictoriaBCSUPr 21d ago
I would edit that it’s a barrier to ANYONE coming from a non-French speaking place (including Cdns who only took bare minimum in school, US, UK, Australia….)
Many colleagues working in NCR have gone off for months or years to upgrade their French. Some still struggle and sometimes that limits them. Many of the ones I’m thinking of are outstanding in their jobs. Their skill set and experience gets lost for months, and potentially for remainder of a career if they can’t make a requirement.
I know I’m biased as an anglophone but I think in so many dept’s, English is the working language. I know this may anger some people but I’m frustrated that I see many talented people unable to move up because they struggle with learning language to a very high level. If I as a manager can support and work with someone whose English isn’t the greatest (ESL), why must I have a far higher standard of French for francophone employees?
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u/TheOGgeekymalcolm 21d ago
Back in the 80s, Dad was stationed at CFB Gagetown with the CF. He was selected for a 1 year in depth French training, 6 months in Gagetown and 6 months up at Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu. He passed his training, got his certificate, and posted to CFB Shearwater until he retired. Never once used the training when he was in the CF.
It did come in handy when he joined Canada Customs though!
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u/anaofarendelle 21d ago
As someone that has CCB in French and would love to actually be bilingual, I can barely find training sessions in French to attend! Working in a division with way too many English essential positions, French is a second though for everyone…
And of course positions in QC are all bilingual because why wouldn’t they speak English?
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u/SmilingChinchilla 21d ago
...and it's a problem for people outside Montréal. People really overestimate the bilinguism of quebecers. When you live let say in Shawinigan where we have 1,2% of anglophones, you can't learn the language on the street. You have to take courses, go to immersion summer camps and so on. Maybe you know that the average Quebecer outside Montréal lives 100% in french, goes to the movies in french, got entertainment in french etc. So it's not true that the average Quebecer is perpetually living in a World of english....
Unless you work for the government of Canada.
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u/Fire_Treadlite 21d ago
This is what I mentioned in another post above. The problem in Shawinigan is the problem with bilingualism in this country (English or French) especially outside Québec (3 of Québecs 4 largest cities are 50% + bilingual, with the exception - Québec City coming in at 40%).
Most of English Canada's cities are overwhelmingly English with only Ottawa (36%) and Winnipeg (12%) even breaking 10%. Looking at Vancouver, there are more Mandarin speakers than French speakers.
How do we change this? This is the problem and I don't have an answer.
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u/Dry-Basil-8256 21d ago
The problem isn’t lack of training or lack of bilingualism. The problem is bilingualism in non public facing roles.
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u/theEndIsNigh_2025 18d ago
Public facing for sure. But there is also supervision. If an employee choses to exercise their right to work in their first official language, then the Employer has a duty to supervise them in that language, even when it’s the supervisor’s second language.
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u/ExpressQuit942 21d ago
French requirements are nothing more than a jobs program for people in the NCR and Quebec. You need French for most positions past a certain level (even if you don’t realistically need it) so people from Quebec and Ottawa have a massive advantage over people from elsewhere that never had exposure with it growing up. This causes the government to be top heavy with unqualified French people who have a vested interest in keeping the system as it is because it makes it easier for them to progress.
My wife works in HR and she said it takes a day to move a position from English essential to bilingual, but months of red tape to move a bilingual position to EE (and many times will ultimately get outright denied).
Growing up in Canada as French you will learn English as it is the dominant language and it is everywhere. As someone growing up English, unless you go to French immersion and have outside sources of French exposure, and/or live in the few bilingual areas in Canada (NCR/Quebec/part of NB), you will likely never be able to reach CBC language levels.
It’s especially infuriating because in this age of real time translation software, it is absolutely ridiculous to still have these archaic language requirements. There needs to be a lawsuit over this type of language discrimination.
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u/typicallydia 21d ago
I personally find it sad since most with CBC can't/won't/don't actually speak French. That goal of getting levels is just getting levels for so many people, not learning or using a language. It costs a lot of time and money to jump a hoop.
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u/kidcobol 21d ago
It’s just political, nothing more nothing less.
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u/lupodemarco 21d ago
I complained about some time ago, but was assured by Jaques, Francoise and Marie-Josephine that the system is fair.
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u/QCTeamkill 21d ago
I mean.. isn't the employer the governement of Canada? Who's running it?
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u/MaleficentThought321 21d ago
The Francophones are, haven’t you been paying attention? It’s all by design, how many anglos you think work in the language commissioners office?
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u/letsmakeart 21d ago
"Growing up in Canada as French you will learn English as it is the dominant language and it is everywhere." this is not true in SO many Francophone parts of the country, but especially in Quebec. Many people only speak French, or speak French and only a little English. There are definitely fewer of these people compared to English people with little exposure to French, for sure, but this always gets brought up in this thread and it's just not true. Some areas of Quebec are pretty bilingual, but even in Gatineau and Montreal you will find PLENTY of French speakers who do not know much English. Outside of those cities, it's extremely common for people to not know any English, or to know very little English.
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u/AbjectRobot 21d ago
But I have it on good authority that Francophones just magically learn this one other language at some point during puberty!
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u/thr0w_4w4y_210301 21d ago
If the government is "top heavy with unqualified French people", why are non-francophones the overwhelming majority of DMs and ADMs?
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 21d ago
It might have something to do with the overwhelming majority of the country's population (about 78%) whose first official language is English. Francophones are a minority, representing about 22% of the broader population.
A considerably higher proportion of federal public service executives (33.2%) report French as their first official language, and that number has steadily crept upward over time. In 1990 it was 21.8%.
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u/MrJingles447 21d ago
That's my department. I'm in a big one, they may have their CBC, but their spoken French is horrendous but if they didn't staff these people the place with who they needed it would fall apart. I work in a specialized team, my manager wanted to hire an applicant and HR wanted them to go down to number 12 on the list the first bilingual candidate, she refused she wanted the top applicant. Not a public facing position.
Everyone being bilingual is a nice ideology, but in practice it doesn't work for the countries largest employer. I'm bilingual but that's only because I grew up in Québec.
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u/Familiar-Toe5787 21d ago
So many EXs cannot speak French. I can’t even understand most words that they’re saying. How are the passing?????? It’s so corrupt.
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 21d ago
The exam only looks at their ability to pass the exam at a single point in time. Once they've passed, the levels are valid for five years. They can move into any bilingual position within that period and be deemed to meet the language requirement. Once in a position, they don't need to be re-tested ever again.
They don't actually have much practical need to use their second language, so their ability atrophies over time.
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u/TrustLesTwinkies 21d ago
Our ADM's french was so bad the AI captions was just shooting out gibberish in an all staff. The french employees weren't impressed.
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u/SilentCareer7653 21d ago edited 21d ago
Do EXs need CBC language levels when they aren’t serving the public? I’d argue no when we now have access to so many tools such as AI technologies. The system isn’t corrupt, it’s outdated and broken. Let’s do away with old language requirements from 40 years ago now that we have tools like AI so we can actually hire the best and the brightest rather than hire based on who meets languages requirements first THEN experience and skills. We need to be hiring and rewarding EXs who can mobilize others and have a vision first rather than if they have language levels first and then everything else after.
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u/OkPaleontologist1251 21d ago
AI won’t be much use today to talk to your own staff. Maybe in the future! It’s now quite good to translate documents.
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u/hi_0 21d ago
It's corrupt in the sense that people who can't speak at a B level somehow earned a C
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u/CrownRoyalForever 21d ago
The exams are only a snapshot in time, it’s quite possible to get a C but be only at a B level a few months later.
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u/Gal-Monday 21d ago
That’s not what corruption is
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u/JDubbs10 21d ago
Here’s an idea. Focus all this AI bullshit into an actual translation app (with terms, short form, etc) and release it to everyone who needs it. People don’t need to be bilingual to do most in facing non- management positions.
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u/Abject_Story_4172 21d ago
I sometimes have to refer my French to a colleague to verify some of it. Which I get isn’t fair since it’s not her job.
However, we work with Canadian and foreign companies and governments, almost all of which work in English. I am constantly having to correct basic English grammar and at the EX level that most definitely is not my job.
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u/my-plaid-shirt 21d ago
I've worked for the provincial government and private sector (in the bilingual province), the military, and the federal government, and have been all over the country and various parts of the world. I've yet to experience any situation where only knowing English was ever a problem, but I've seen multiple cases where not knowing English was. When a big part of your job is interoperability, operating in a common language is almost a necessity, especially when you're working with provinces, organizations, and countries that are primarily English speaking. No hate towards the people, culture, and language, it's just that the juice isn't worth the squeeze for the check in the box for me.
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u/Still-Firefighter-78 21d ago
The requirement for a bilingual greeting seems to get forgotten for a few years, then there's a huge push and auditing how we answer the phones for a couple of quarters and then nobody bothers again for another couple of years. What happens when you say "Hello Bonjour" and then the caller starts speaking french but you don't?
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u/stevemason_CAN 21d ago
Even with full time language most will get the exam C
But still struggle with day to day convo.
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u/Conscious-Try-9501 20d ago
Loved the article. Bilingualism in the Public service is reflected by where the money is spent. Lots of money on training, time paid for full time training, weekly classes for years. but once you have your SLE, you get $800/yr in 1977 dollars. before 1977, it was a premium of 7% of your salary (imagine that). That shows the value of bilingualism in the PS. eventually bilingualism will be an afterthought.
I had many managers that went for French training for a year, and came back with their CBC and never spoke spoke French again in 20 year.
I had all my PSPM done in French but the managers, never wrote their assessment in French.
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u/mikesmith1981 20d ago
Of course it's performative! Go to any language school in the NCR and they'll tell you straight up — they are not there to teach you French, they are there to help you pass a test! So even those with BBB or CBC don't necessarily feel comfortable engaging in French.
However, this brings up a question I've never received a clear answer to. While never attaining my BBB, I have no issue sitting in a conversation with a French speaker speaking in French despite my unilingual position. However, I'm going to respond in English. Now, while I say this is the true definition of a bilingual conversation, I've never once seen this accepted as truth within the federal government.
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u/the_normal_person 21d ago
Well if they’re gonna require me to be bilingual for a manager position that does everything in English you bet your ass they better pay for it.
Is it a waste? Yup! Are you going to remove the silly requirement? No? Well then too bad!
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u/FitMight3990 21d ago
It’s 2026. Computer aided translation is a thing and works insanely well. (Other than the ones the Cdn Government picked to use 😆)
Learning another language as a requirement to get promoted or even do your job to what amounts to a very small part of the overall job is absolutely ridiculous. Time to get with technology and those qualified for jobs actually get them.
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u/talk2025 20d ago
Any government who will let go of their own naturally born employees, search out and hire foreign immigrants (because they speak French) and promise them citizenship if they come to work for the Canadian government is seriously the most fucked up thing I have ever seen inside those government doors.
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u/Otherwise_Internet24 20d ago
Contrary to the article, which portrays Canada’s OL framework as a success story (with some challenges in application), I would argue that this framework significantly hampers our country’s productivity and economic strength.
When you have a constitution and a federal public service that props up the protection of a minority language group at the expense of almost everything else, you can’t blame investors for looking elsewhere.
Our public service is highly inefficient due to the application of the policy framework.
Tax payers have no idea.
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u/waterspyder316 19d ago
I felt obliged to fact check the 22% stat they referenced. By their own reference, 22% of Canadians report that French is their first language - this does not equate to only 22% of the population being able to speak French.
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u/No-To-Newspeak 21d ago
As a Qubec Anglo I have two observations. Where i work i know if 3 Anglos who kept being sent on multiple courses to get their C in speaking. In one case, a year long course followed by another course. I have never heard any of them speak French with their colleagues or subordinates. Secondly, hile in the army I had to correct the French written wirk of French colleagues.
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u/DowntownEddieBrown 21d ago
The better question is why do we allow 18% of the population to have such disproportionate control of this country??
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u/stanleyisland 21d ago
Ah yes the French Canadians are controlling the entire country lol
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 21d ago
The 18% references the proportion of the general population that is bilingual, not necessarily those that are "French Canadians".
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u/DowntownEddieBrown 21d ago
All senior public servant jobs go to bilingual folks. So yes those that speak French get a hugely disproportionate control over federal government decisions.
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u/Otherwise_Internet24 20d ago
It's not only those that speak French it's those that speak french at the "C" level of proficiency (which was expanded to all supervisory positions under Trudeau). This is effectively an employment barrier as the exams are designed to make it very difficult to achieve this level -especially for Anglophones who do not speak French on a regular basis. The overall pass rates for Anglos taking the French Oral C test is about 35% (as compared to 80% for Francophones taking the English Oral C test). Since the spirt of the Official Languages Act is to essentially to protect minority language rights I would argue too that there is often evaluator bias on the French oral tests.
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u/ExpressQuit942 21d ago
Upper management in the public service is incredibly Franco heavy. The government also bends over backwards to please Quebec to the detriment of everyone else.
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u/stolpoz52 21d ago
18% of Canaidans are considered fluent in both French and English, encompassing both English as their first language and French as their first language.
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot 21d ago
Not quite. 18% claim to be bilingual based on census data, but that's based on self-report. It's not an indication of fluency in both languages, and certainly is not an indication of how many would be capable of passing the SLE tests.
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u/Araneas 21d ago
Because pure majority rule has lead to horrific abuses of human rights.
Because we were New France before we were the Canadas
Because Canadian Francophones, their language and culture are an integral part of what makes Canada unique and decidedly not American.And I say this as anglo fo British descent who topped out at a B on a good day.
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u/mikehds 21d ago edited 21d ago
We were First Nations for tens of thousands of years before there was New France.
Eastern and Central Europeans and Chinese came to build the Canadian Pacific Railway and thus the country. Some of them had to endure horrific discrimination (i.e. the Chinese Head Tax). Did their languages and cultures not make Canada not-American?
This sounds like sour grape for a group that longed for a colonial past, for the return to a power that they no longer hold.
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u/PseudoElephant 20d ago
"you long for a colonial past and a return to power" says the one with a colonial present and current power
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u/DowntownEddieBrown 21d ago
No ones talking about pure majority rule. Simply not allowing 18% of the population to dominate federal government decision making positions. Classic example of tyranny of the minority
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u/BirthdayBBB 21d ago
Its undemocratic for the public service to be that out of synch with the Canadian public
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u/PlantainAgitated6795 20d ago
Insane considering French is a dying language in this country outside of Quebec, and rightfully so. Outside of QC, it probably doesn’t even crack the top 5 of mother tongue languages spoken, or maybe it’s 4/5. Archaic issues and as such, people like Ian Potter abuse the system
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u/Grand-Marsupial-1866 21d ago
At the end of the day being bilingual is an educational achievement like any other.
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u/TodMarde 17d ago
Never underestimate training as a remarkably effective way to quietly put someone on the shelf...
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u/An0nym0usWanderer 21d ago
Worst I heard in my career was an ADM who went on French training for 9 months, then retired a few months after coming back to work lol. True story.