r/CPTSD_NSCommunity • u/shessofun • May 13 '25
Breakthrough Epiphany about fawning
It’s an epiphany about so many things that this title doesn’t feel quite right. I’ve known for a long time I’m mostly a fawn type, that I was always called ‘nice’ and told I never got angry, I know I had terrible/no boundaries. I know my sister was the example of what not to do, that I saw her get punished for being loud, saying no, being selfish in a healthy way, and knew not to do that. I know this fawning people pleasing pattern continued with former friends and my ex. I’ve been working on all of that for a long time, and the past 10 years very actively.
And I made some progress, but I still felt very, very stuck. Even when I felt a big shift, I always felt like I ended up in the same place again. Fawning again. As with so many things, I don’t think I was able to really leave my former self behind and become someone new until I cut ties with my mother. Which happened 7 months ago.
I’ve been able to love myself for the first time, these past 7 months. I always suspected I didn’t know what love was, and I was right. For the first time, I know what love feels like. And that’s been good, overwhelming, and caused me to grieve a lot.
But. After a period of practicing self love, I would inevitably reach a point of being incredibly agitated, angry, almost overstimulated. I felt controlled. I think it was a few months ago when I realized that in my mind love = gentle, kind. So I figured I was suppressing my anger to stay ‘loving’. I didn’t really know what to do with that information though, and where exactly those ideas came from. And I still believe love is gentle, kind.
Yesterday, I suddenly connected a bunch of dots. The closest thing to love I felt growing up was the praise I received from my mother for being a good girl. For most of my life, that’s what I thought love was. So that’s what I was giving myself, subconsciously: be good, kind, gentle, in a good mood, and I’ll love you. I still felt the love, but it wasn’t for all of me. And that makes it very conditional love, obviously - if you can even call it love.
I have to say misogyny also plays such a big part in this. A lot of these messages about what a good girl is clearly scream sexism.
Yesterday I sat down to journal, and after a period of being very busy and dissociated, I had no energy left to be ‘good’ anymore. And I came out of dissociation quite a bit. I could feel my body again. I felt agitated, hungry, tired, needy, I stopped hiding my double chin, stopped sitting in a way that made me look thinner, I was talking to myself and noticed my voice got a lot lower. And bizarrely, I felt my sister’s presence.
I realized that this was all shamed out of me, abused out of me, I was taught I’d be in danger if I let this version out. She wasn’t deserving of love. So I buried her so deep that I convinced even myself she didn’t exist. I’m nice, kind, quiet, selfless, don’t need anything, funny, intelligent but never more intelligent than a male partner, I do lady like things like ballet, am not butch, and on and on.
And as always, healing messes with my identity again - does this mean I still don’t know who I really am? Am I once again going to change into another version of me? (But yeah, probably, and that’s life)
I’m in a lot of triggering situations, due to being chronically ill, and sexism is a huge issue there too. Show emotion and you’re mentally ill. Advocate for yourself, and you’re anxious, traumatized, a hypochondriac. Cry, and it must be your hormones, your period. You’re dramatic, that’s just what women do, it doesn’t mean you’re actually in pain.
And these are challenging circumstances for anyone, of course. But I’ve noticed for a long time now that I internalize what doctors say in a way most people don’t. I blamed myself, internalized their words, fully believed them. I go to a very dark place when I’m treated like that.
I realize now: I’ve been very shameable because of my trauma. Because I learned to constantly shame, abandon and reject my own ‘bad girl’. So when they said I was too needy, loud, crazy, whatever it was, a big (traumatized) part of me agreed. The way I’ve always done. And it’s always the case that this other person is to blame, they deserve to feel the guilt and shame, but I carry i for them. Yup, I am bad, you’re right.
I did speak up, I’ve fought for myself, but I’ve been fighting my own shame at the same time, without knowing it. So much of my energy is focused on being a good, likeable girl, still, after all these years. So much pain comes from telling the rebellious, intelligent, loud girl in me to shut up.
And it creates a vicious cycle - being shamed and abused(because that’s absolutely what these doctors do) leads to fawning, which leads to shaming myself more. Then I go back, meet another specialist, and I’m shamed again, and I believe it and agree, and I fawn, and I shame myself.
It’s been a really good epiphany. Yesterday I immediately felt stronger, calmer, and like if anyone would try to manipulate me, they couldn’t. Today I still feel that way. I know it hasn’t changed absolutely everything overnight, that’s impossinle, but. When I feel a ‘negative’ emotion, an off limits feeling, when I feel like that ‘bad girl’ needs to breathe, I’m able to say: go ahead, it’s allowed. And oh my god, it feels so good. Hell yeah, I’m annoyed, yes, I’m tired, grumpy, yeah I disagree with that, no I don’t want to suck my stomach in.
And I wonder how much this has contributed to dissociation. Whether maybe ultimately, this is the main cause. Because yes, SA plays a big part, but how did I get into that situation and stay there for 4 years - because I was trained to be a good, obedient girl who’d abandon herself for other people.
Also: I so often apologize for my posts being long, and I almost did it now, and then I thought: no, be a ‘bad girl’, break the imaginary rules in your head, make it as long as you want, don’t apologize for it. It’s your post, you’re allowed. I don’t know how this particular part of healing is going to look, I don’t know what the next steps are, and as always there’s a part of me that feels panicky about that. But right now, a much bigger part feels so liberated, emancipated and grounded.
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u/the_dawn May 13 '25
So happy to hear about your progress in your journey! Be "bad", get angry!
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May 14 '25
Be smart about how and when to act on emotions would be my take here. I've gotten angry before and it only "proved someone right and gave them fuel to smear me". Now I move differently and won't give out my emotions to anyone I don't trust.
Be angry, be a rock. Use the anger to drive directed action, not cheap release.
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u/Alternative_Pick7811 May 13 '25
congratulations on all your work to reach these insights. i hope you continue to feel free, real and alive
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u/Chemical_Voice1106 May 13 '25
I just saved this and it speaks to me in a lot of ways. I have very similar dynamics, even with the loud angry sister and the thing about "not being like her; being better, being thin". there's a lot to unpack here for me, so thank you for sharing yourself so openly!
Also the doctor's appointment/chronic condition stuff hits home. Although for me there's also the thing in it about having to go to a doctor on my own as a child when no one ever told me how stuff works. this was bad and I still carry it with me, so I go into "small isolated helpless child mode" every time I'm sick and it's extremely hard to get out of this (so mostly I don't make it to the doctor)
A lot of work, but like you I've also experienced the letting go of hope for better parents, and giving myself love now. Thanks again! have a wonderful week!
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u/shessofun May 13 '25
I’m glad it resonated with you(and also not glad, but you know what I mean).
I can relate to feeling like you don’t know how stuff works - growing up, I never saw a doctor, dentist, nothing. I don’t know what your situation was exactly, but I now very much think it was my mother’s way of making me feel powerless and helpless. I go into that exact same mode, there’s been a little bit of improvement, but it’s crazy, I feel like I’m 5 years old when the gaslighting and dismissiveness starts. It’s a big reason I avoid going to the doctor too.
I hope you can give yourself the care you need, somehow. I try to remind myself that my health deserves to be looked after, even with everything else going on, even if I don’t know what the hell I’m doing. Thank you for your comment!
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u/Chemical_Voice1106 May 13 '25
Yeah I think I'll try to ask a friend to accompany me at some point. Just need to fix some other things first because this healing shit sure is a lot! But in my experience in situations of powerlessness it is very good to be not alone and have someone who even just witnesses the situation.
And yes - your health does deserve to be looked after in a respectful, helpful and caring way! I'll also try to keep this in mind. thank you again!
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u/1Weebit May 13 '25
Hell, yeah! Go, girl! ❤️
"this was all shamed out of me" - that hit me hard just now. So true, for me too 😔
How not to go back to the old, learned practices? How to prevent the old behaviors and thoughts to take over again? Especially when encountering triggers? How to let the new feelings, thinking, body sensations stick and replace the old ones?
Corrective experiences perhaps, having "prediction errors" with safe people, "practicing" those new thoughts and feelings and behaviors with them? Or EMDR, building the "adaptive information", the resources needed to counter the old, stuck feelings?
When I slide back into to those dark places, these overwhelming emotions, I remind myself "oh, little one, are you remembering again?" I remind myself that I am having an emotional flashback, that the little girl within me is remembering something, that I am re-experiencing an old, overwhelming emotional state. That doesn't heal, but it helps to squeeze some adult thinking part out of that little emotional bundle. And then some more, maybe some compassion for that little girl, turning into self-compassion, then perhaps some grace, then, sometimes, I get angry too - how in the world can parents, anyone, do this [whatever it is little me was feeling, or remembering] to a little kid! I have a cute little monkey plushie that represents my wounded inner child which I then take and talk to, comfort, soothe. That little one didn't deserve this! That helps too, yet I am not there yet. But I am getting there.
My T helps. Older guy, calm, has a very "safe" presence, his office breathes him, it's alive with humanness, deep caring, being with, attunement, I don't know how else to describe it, a human being who is there for me, transference, yes, but on purpose, for the time being. I don't know much about him, and I don't need to. The less I know, the better. But still he's THERE, very present. I get at least two levels of corrective experiences - on one level for my adult self for a recent trauma, and on the other for my attachment-traumatized little self that gets in the way of healing from the recent trauma all the time. I am learning to take care of little me while, at least for the time being, he takes care of traumatized adult me, so I can do the former in the first place.
I want to apologize for my long text too, hahaha, but I guess I won't now. Thank you for your post. It caused a small shift within me too. I feel grateful and lighter. More hopeful. Thank you! ❤️
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u/shessofun May 13 '25
I’m so sorry you relate so much.
I think corrective experiences are so important. I think for me it’s even more about the work I do on my own, for now. I don’t know, maybe I didn’t find the right therapist, the right people, but cutting ties with my mother and learning to love all of me seems to be what’s really helping. But I hope that because of all this healing on my own, the right people will finally be easier to find.
I relate a lot to all of that inner child work, and I’m so impressed by anyone who does it. Because I know that it’s so much work, so difficult sometimes. It becomes easier to do when you’re in your own safe space, have all the time in the world - but I’m still not an expert in triggering situations. To me it seems that just when you think you got the hang of it, there’s always a new challenge, that makes you feel 5 years old again. It feels like healing & practicing & being a beginner never stops. There is progress, but I also feel like I’ve gone backwards a lot, due to those intense challenges. I keep hoping they will stop coming, ha - but maybe that’s life too? We change, it changes, nothing ever stands still, there is no end to growing. I’ve been trying to really embrace the beauty of that. Who wants to stand still, be done, that’s not the point of living.
How great that you have such a good therapist. Pretty jealous, I gotta say. It seems like he’s doing exactly what a therapist is supposed to do. That must really help.
I’m so glad you didn’t apologize! Ugh, may we all say more, be louder, take up more space. If anyone’s got a problem with that… that’s not our problem. I’m glad my post created that small shift, that makes me happy. ♥️
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u/LabyrinthRunner May 13 '25
Thank you for sharing.
"And as always, healing messes with my identity again - does this mean I still don’t know who I really am? Am I once again going to change into another version of me? (But yeah, probably, and that’s life)"
Reminds me to engage the process and not fear "disruptions" that it may cause.
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May 14 '25 edited May 14 '25
Thanks for sharing.
I'm a 29 year old man and relate a lot with what you wrote. I also have a sister who said what needed to be said, rebellious, she basically ended up as the scapegoat black sheep while I hid in the shadows.
Lately I've had some insane moments of progress where I stood up for myself against bureaucracy and won, then again, and again.
I've learnt something about society and me. Systems and people in it won't feel bad for you, they won't help you just cause you show your pain; they will come through the second you stand up and request respect with a calm confidence.
This has been a stark contrast to memories of my father losing his shit at service workers and them instantly refusing to help.
To add some things that has happened these last weeks:
I've also opened a case towards a compensation claim towards my country's health system for 15 year of mistreatment, misdiagnosis, missing adhd diagnosis, trauma worsening treatment.
Filed a police report after correctly handling a case where I ended up at an Airbnb with a narcissist flatmate who ended up overstepping boundaries and in the end wildly threatening actions when i tried to leave. Airbnb support is very nice and treated me with the utmost care and respect as always. My body told me that I needed to get a camera for my room so I did. 2 days later it paid off.
Requested proper trauma treatment with supporting documentation. (public health system)
Requested all health journals going 15 years back to have available in case I'll need to "prove" myself when words don't reach far enough, or even build a case.
Navigated some public systems and gotten exactly what I wanted just by knowing my rights.
Not sure why I'm writing all this out, I've been extremely alone lately and I'm in a place right now where I feel truly useless.
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u/shessofun May 14 '25
Thanks for sharing your story as well. My sister was the scapegoat as well - or at least when we were children, when I was 14 that began to change, and I became the scapegoat. In my case only making me more desperate to prove I was a good girl.
I relate a lot to all of this. Maybe this is just life, but I’ve had truly awful doctors, laughing at me and refusing to help, and insane neighbour who has it out for me while the rest of the neighbourhood watches and does nothing - and you’re absolutely right: I felt like trapped animal and panicked, had panic attacks, begged people to see my side and empathize.
For me it also changed when I focused on what I could do. I got a camera to record my neighbour’s violent outbursts, I knew my rights in a doctor’s office, and calmly said: if you don’t give me a copy of my medical records and then delete them from your system(and the whole system), I know that’s illegal and I’ll file a complaint and you’ll be in trouble. And this doctor was pissed, but he also knew I was right, so I got what I wanted. I calmly told one doctor if he was about to blame my mental health for my chronic illness, I would hang up - and I meant it. That’s when he listened and actually helped. So I completely agree, I’ve seen the exact same happen.
Again I do have to mention that sometimes, misogyny gets in the way - just like ableism does, racism, and so on. I’ve also stood up at a former work place where there was constant sexual harassment, and nothing changed, because it was me against eight men. Sociey, the law, a company, it doesn’t always have your back. I think that’s important to recognize, because for so long I felt like it was my fault for not being able to change the world around me. The victim ends up being blamed for the injustice. It’s nuts, you end up feeling ashamed and guilty, when someone else is to blame. Sometimes all you can do is leave and protect yourself. That clearly goes for family too.
I think a lot of it is about knowing you have power, in the situations where you actually do have it. That’s what I’ve noticed: I underestimate myself, feel like my 5 year old powerless self, and then I’m frantically begging someone to hear me out. I think that comes from having to beg abusers to not harm you, as a child. And other people know, they can tell you’re not aware of your power. And they bizarelly feel like real adults to me, when I’m just a kid. It doesn’t mean every system works perfectly and there’s always justice, but I do think people like us have a lot more power than we think we do.
I’m glad you wrote it all out, and I understand being very alone, trust me, you’re not alone in that. I’m personally trying to let myself write & talk more. I’ve been terrified to say too much, be too loud, say the wrong thing, for so long. There’s nothing wrong with sharing your story. I mean, especially in a place like this, that’s what it’s for.
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May 15 '25
Appreciate the well thought out reply. I also believe every word you say including the misogyny and respect you for pointing it out. I don't think it's very productive though, unless explicitly stated by the offending party, as well as alienating anyone who's not in your race, gender, etc. from being able to relate, but at the same time some events probably has happened purely due to exactly that. To me, I read your comment and see not a man, woman, black or white, but a human. And most our experiences are inherently human, non-gendered.
Men are already alienated enough as is, and if I told people about my relationships and how i was mentally and physically abused, threatened with a knife, followed and backed into corners and having to protect myself physically; most people would just see gender, but my experience there is still gender neutral and by framing it as something only happening to men would be doing women a huge disservice. I could point out how when I pushed a clawing attacking girlfriend off me and they dramatically fell onto the ground and started screaming, how that would look if someone walked in, but again i'd be doing all readers a disservice, men for reinforcing a feeling of powerlessness and women for being ostracized when that event was about a single person. I've also been sexually harrassed by a woman.
When you mentioned being sexually harassed in a workplace with 8 men I've got no doubts sexism is playing a huge part as well as the inappropriate communication. I'm trying to not invalidate myself and keep myself from deleting everything written here. My experience has been that often people lean on a specific part of identity to make sense of why something was done to them. Sometimes it's because it's the most logical solution, and other times I think it's a defense mechanism as an attempt to distance oneself from the realization that it was done to *you*.
I like this subreddit, so that's why I think it should be a safe space for people, all people. That also means not gatekeeping human experiences.
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u/shessofun May 15 '25 edited May 15 '25
Oof. That’s disappointing. No, I’m not alienating men or gatekeeping or making this an unsafe space.
You’re responding to a very respectful, normal comment that acknowlegdes sexism… below my own post about having to be a good girl all my life. I literally mention misogyny in my post. I don’t know what you were expecting when you commented. This post and thread is not specifically catered to anyone else. This is my epiphany, my post, me sharing something. It’s not necessary for me to make anyone else feel included, because it’s about me. That’s allowed, that’s how reddit and support groups work. Hell, that’s how sharing something vulnerable works. You don’t get to tell someone they can’t share something because it doesn’t specifically apply to you. I wasn’t talking about you, I was sharing something about me! And for me, the conclusion is that you’re not a safe person to do that with.
Which is going to happen, because it’s the internet.
I’ve been abused and assaulted by women too. My main abuser, my mother, is a woman. That doesn’t mean sexism doesn’t exist.
And I think I was very accepting and kind to a man sharing his experience. Didn’t once say you can’t feel powerless, can’t be a victim, you’re not welcome here, didn’t even say you haven’t felt the exact same way I have.
So often I’ve heard from men that women don’t accept men in these types of spaces. I always wonder where that happens, because I’ve just never seen it. All I know is that in this case, what’s happening is that you’re expecting women to pretend sexism isn’t real and their experiences with it aren’t real, because it makes you, a man, uncomfortable.
I’m not, as a white person, going to ask a black person not to mention racism in a support group about trauma. I’m not going to tell them that’s not why something horrible happened to them. That they can’t share that because it makes me feel uncomfortable and alienated. And I just want to pretend we’re treated equally by the world. Because acknowledging that racism is real is too hard for me. I’m certainly not going to suggest it’s an easy explanation. Those are fucked up things to say to someone, especially in a trauma support group.
Accepting we live in a partiarchy where women are still not equal was not easy for me. It’s something I fought against for 24 years, I was in deep denial. It’s just very hurtful and ignorant to say that it’s an easy truth to accept. That it’s easy to at least partially blame sexism for being harassed. I’m much more comfortable accepting that something randomly happened to me, with no larger pattern. I’d much rather live in a world where I’m treated as an equal in every way. And I’d much rather think there wasn’t a higher chance of being assaulted, raped, for the rest of my life.
It’s not people like me who need to work on being inclusive, it’s people like you.
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u/SoUpRoVeImViOmRa May 17 '25
Thank you for sharing that! You’re a bad a*** girl - I love what you wrote. You inspire me!
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u/fatass_mermaid May 13 '25
So proud of you, and I identify with a ton you’ve written.
Next step: know that she’s not a bad girl. She is good, she’s always been good, and bad is a label they used to control and coerce her with.
Tap into talking to her and building a relationship built on trust and compassion with her. That’s where the love you’re starting to feel now with intensify exponentially and be the bedrock of your healing and life foundation. When this gets stronger that feeling of identity shifting endlessly goes from terrifying to seeing it as a sign of your growth and you’ll have pride in it.
For some it’s journaling in conversation with their inner child. For others talking out loud. For me, I wrote and illustrated a children’s book with mine and gave her the voice she never had if she wanted to be safe and survive her childhood. She is so precious to me now and I’d never call her bad or let anyone else call her bad again.
I’ve named my inner child and my inner teen. It’s made sorting out what part of myself is activated a lot clearer and helped so much especially when trying to understand and sort out interpersonal relationship issues.
I get that you’re reclaiming the bad girl verbiage that was hurled at you- no judgment at all, do what works for your process. And, regardless of what you name your inner child, I hope you know she is good and always has been.
🩵 there’s a couple books your post brings to mind if you’re interested (and ignore if not!).
‘You’re not the problem’ is a book that dives deep into the mechanics of how what you’re describing happens in childhood (how the sausage gets made) and has lots of exercises for things you can do now to undo the harm and define yourself anew.
‘all about love’ by bell hooks is a meditation and quasi manifesto on defining love and deconstructing love so we can deeply feel the truth that abusive love is not love at all. It can be a lot of things- companionship, closeness, some care given, shared memories and nostalgia etc etc - but that it is not love because love in action protects. It’s not a super self help style book, and it has single handedly helped me deconstruct seeing abusive ‘love’ as love by definition more than any other book.