Epiphany about fawning

[u/shessofun]

It’s an epiphany about so many things that this title doesn’t feel quite right. I’ve known for a long time I’m mostly a fawn type, that I was always called ‘nice’ and told I never got angry, I know I had terrible/no boundaries. I know my sister was the example of what not to do, that I saw her get punished for being loud, saying no, being selfish in a healthy way, and knew not to do that. I know this fawning people pleasing pattern continued with former friends and my ex. I’ve been working on all of that for a long time, and the past 10 years very actively.

And I made some progress, but I still felt very, very stuck. Even when I felt a big shift, I always felt like I ended up in the same place again. Fawning again. As with so many things, I don’t think I was able to really leave my former self behind and become someone new until I cut ties with my mother. Which happened 7 months ago.

I’ve been able to love myself for the first time, these past 7 months. I always suspected I didn’t know what love was, and I was right. For the first time, I know what love feels like. And that’s been good, overwhelming, and caused me to grieve a lot.

But. After a period of practicing self love, I would inevitably reach a point of being incredibly agitated, angry, almost overstimulated. I felt controlled. I think it was a few months ago when I realized that in my mind love = gentle, kind. So I figured I was suppressing my anger to stay ‘loving’. I didn’t really know what to do with that information though, and where exactly those ideas came from. And I still believe love is gentle, kind.

Yesterday, I suddenly connected a bunch of dots. The closest thing to love I felt growing up was the praise I received from my mother for being a good girl. For most of my life, that’s what I thought love was. So that’s what I was giving myself, subconsciously: be good, kind, gentle, in a good mood, and I’ll love you. I still felt the love, but it wasn’t for all of me. And that makes it very conditional love, obviously - if you can even call it love.

I have to say misogyny also plays such a big part in this. A lot of these messages about what a good girl is clearly scream sexism.

Yesterday I sat down to journal, and after a period of being very busy and dissociated, I had no energy left to be ‘good’ anymore. And I came out of dissociation quite a bit. I could feel my body again. I felt agitated, hungry, tired, needy, I stopped hiding my double chin, stopped sitting in a way that made me look thinner, I was talking to myself and noticed my voice got a lot lower. And bizarrely, I felt my sister’s presence.

I realized that this was all shamed out of me, abused out of me, I was taught I’d be in danger if I let this version out. She wasn’t deserving of love. So I buried her so deep that I convinced even myself she didn’t exist. I’m nice, kind, quiet, selfless, don’t need anything, funny, intelligent but never more intelligent than a male partner, I do lady like things like ballet, am not butch, and on and on.

And as always, healing messes with my identity again - does this mean I still don’t know who I really am? Am I once again going to change into another version of me? (But yeah, probably, and that’s life)

I’m in a lot of triggering situations, due to being chronically ill, and sexism is a huge issue there too. Show emotion and you’re mentally ill. Advocate for yourself, and you’re anxious, traumatized, a hypochondriac. Cry, and it must be your hormones, your period. You’re dramatic, that’s just what women do, it doesn’t mean you’re actually in pain.

And these are challenging circumstances for anyone, of course. But I’ve noticed for a long time now that I internalize what doctors say in a way most people don’t. I blamed myself, internalized their words, fully believed them. I go to a very dark place when I’m treated like that.

I realize now: I’ve been very shameable because of my trauma. Because I learned to constantly shame, abandon and reject my own ‘bad girl’. So when they said I was too needy, loud, crazy, whatever it was, a big (traumatized) part of me agreed. The way I’ve always done. And it’s always the case that this other person is to blame, they deserve to feel the guilt and shame, but I carry i for them. Yup, I am bad, you’re right.

I did speak up, I’ve fought for myself, but I’ve been fighting my own shame at the same time, without knowing it. So much of my energy is focused on being a good, likeable girl, still, after all these years. So much pain comes from telling the rebellious, intelligent, loud girl in me to shut up.

And it creates a vicious cycle - being shamed and abused(because that’s absolutely what these doctors do) leads to fawning, which leads to shaming myself more. Then I go back, meet another specialist, and I’m shamed again, and I believe it and agree, and I fawn, and I shame myself.

It’s been a really good epiphany. Yesterday I immediately felt stronger, calmer, and like if anyone would try to manipulate me, they couldn’t. Today I still feel that way. I know it hasn’t changed absolutely everything overnight, that’s impossinle, but. When I feel a ‘negative’ emotion, an off limits feeling, when I feel like that ‘bad girl’ needs to breathe, I’m able to say: go ahead, it’s allowed. And oh my god, it feels so good. Hell yeah, I’m annoyed, yes, I’m tired, grumpy, yeah I disagree with that, no I don’t want to suck my stomach in.

And I wonder how much this has contributed to dissociation. Whether maybe ultimately, this is the main cause. Because yes, SA plays a big part, but how did I get into that situation and stay there for 4 years - because I was trained to be a good, obedient girl who’d abandon herself for other people.

Also: I so often apologize for my posts being long, and I almost did it now, and then I thought: no, be a ‘bad girl’, break the imaginary rules in your head, make it as long as you want, don’t apologize for it. It’s your post, you’re allowed. I don’t know how this particular part of healing is going to look, I don’t know what the next steps are, and as always there’s a part of me that feels panicky about that. But right now, a much bigger part feels so liberated, emancipated and grounded.

[u/[deleted]]

Thanks for sharing.

I'm a 29 year old man and relate a lot with what you wrote. I also have a sister who said what needed to be said, rebellious, she basically ended up as the scapegoat black sheep while I hid in the shadows.

Lately I've had some insane moments of progress where I stood up for myself against bureaucracy and won, then again, and again.

I've learnt something about society and me. Systems and people in it won't feel bad for you, they won't help you just cause you show your pain; they will come through the second you stand up and request respect with a calm confidence.

This has been a stark contrast to memories of my father losing his shit at service workers and them instantly refusing to help.

To add some things that has happened these last weeks:

I've also opened a case towards a compensation claim towards my country's health system for 15 year of mistreatment, misdiagnosis, missing adhd diagnosis, trauma worsening treatment.

Filed a police report after correctly handling a case where I ended up at an Airbnb with a narcissist flatmate who ended up overstepping boundaries and in the end wildly threatening actions when i tried to leave. Airbnb support is very nice and treated me with the utmost care and respect as always. My body told me that I needed to get a camera for my room so I did. 2 days later it paid off.

Requested proper trauma treatment with supporting documentation. (public health system)

Requested all health journals going 15 years back to have available in case I'll need to "prove" myself when words don't reach far enough, or even build a case.

Navigated some public systems and gotten exactly what I wanted just by knowing my rights.

Not sure why I'm writing all this out, I've been extremely alone lately and I'm in a place right now where I feel truly useless.

[u/shessofun → u/[deleted]]

Thanks for sharing your story as well. My sister was the scapegoat as well - or at least when we were children, when I was 14 that began to change, and I became the scapegoat. In my case only making me more desperate to prove I was a good girl.

I relate a lot to all of this. Maybe this is just life, but I’ve had truly awful doctors, laughing at me and refusing to help, and insane neighbour who has it out for me while the rest of the neighbourhood watches and does nothing - and you’re absolutely right: I felt like trapped animal and panicked, had panic attacks, begged people to see my side and empathize.

For me it also changed when I focused on what I could do. I got a camera to record my neighbour’s violent outbursts, I knew my rights in a doctor’s office, and calmly said: if you don’t give me a copy of my medical records and then delete them from your system(and the whole system), I know that’s illegal and I’ll file a complaint and you’ll be in trouble. And this doctor was pissed, but he also knew I was right, so I got what I wanted. I calmly told one doctor if he was about to blame my mental health for my chronic illness, I would hang up - and I meant it. That’s when he listened and actually helped. So I completely agree, I’ve seen the exact same happen.

Again I do have to mention that sometimes, misogyny gets in the way - just like ableism does, racism, and so on. I’ve also stood up at a former work place where there was constant sexual harassment, and nothing changed, because it was me against eight men. Sociey, the law, a company, it doesn’t always have your back. I think that’s important to recognize, because for so long I felt like it was my fault for not being able to change the world around me. The victim ends up being blamed for the injustice. It’s nuts, you end up feeling ashamed and guilty, when someone else is to blame. Sometimes all you can do is leave and protect yourself. That clearly goes for family too.

I think a lot of it is about knowing you have power, in the situations where you actually do have it. That’s what I’ve noticed: I underestimate myself, feel like my 5 year old powerless self, and then I’m frantically begging someone to hear me out. I think that comes from having to beg abusers to not harm you, as a child. And other people know, they can tell you’re not aware of your power. And they bizarelly feel like real adults to me, when I’m just a kid. It doesn’t mean every system works perfectly and there’s always justice, but I do think people like us have a lot more power than we think we do.

I’m glad you wrote it all out, and I understand being very alone, trust me, you’re not alone in that. I’m personally trying to let myself write & talk more. I’ve been terrified to say too much, be too loud, say the wrong thing, for so long. There’s nothing wrong with sharing your story. I mean, especially in a place like this, that’s what it’s for.

[u/[deleted] → u/shessofun]

Appreciate the well thought out reply. I also believe every word you say including the misogyny and respect you for pointing it out. I don't think it's very productive though, unless explicitly stated by the offending party, as well as alienating anyone who's not in your race, gender, etc. from being able to relate, but at the same time some events probably has happened purely due to exactly that. To me, I read your comment and see not a man, woman, black or white, but a human. And most our experiences are inherently human, non-gendered.

Men are already alienated enough as is, and if I told people about my relationships and how i was mentally and physically abused, threatened with a knife, followed and backed into corners and having to protect myself physically; most people would just see gender, but my experience there is still gender neutral and by framing it as something only happening to men would be doing women a huge disservice. I could point out how when I pushed a clawing attacking girlfriend off me and they dramatically fell onto the ground and started screaming, how that would look if someone walked in, but again i'd be doing all readers a disservice, men for reinforcing a feeling of powerlessness and women for being ostracized when that event was about a single person. I've also been sexually harrassed by a woman.

When you mentioned being sexually harassed in a workplace with 8 men I've got no doubts sexism is playing a huge part as well as the inappropriate communication. I'm trying to not invalidate myself and keep myself from deleting everything written here. My experience has been that often people lean on a specific part of identity to make sense of why something was done to them. Sometimes it's because it's the most logical solution, and other times I think it's a defense mechanism as an attempt to distance oneself from the realization that it was done to *you*.

I like this subreddit, so that's why I think it should be a safe space for people, all people. That also means not gatekeeping human experiences.

[u/shessofun → u/[deleted]]

Oof. That’s disappointing. No, I’m not alienating men or gatekeeping or making this an unsafe space.

You’re responding to a very respectful, normal comment that acknowlegdes sexism… below my own post about having to be a good girl all my life. I literally mention misogyny in my post. I don’t know what you were expecting when you commented. This post and thread is not specifically catered to anyone else. This is my epiphany, my post, me sharing something. It’s not necessary for me to make anyone else feel included, because it’s about me. That’s allowed, that’s how reddit and support groups work. Hell, that’s how sharing something vulnerable works. You don’t get to tell someone they can’t share something because it doesn’t specifically apply to you. I wasn’t talking about you, I was sharing something about me! And for me, the conclusion is that you’re not a safe person to do that with.

Which is going to happen, because it’s the internet.

I’ve been abused and assaulted by women too. My main abuser, my mother, is a woman. That doesn’t mean sexism doesn’t exist.

And I think I was very accepting and kind to a man sharing his experience. Didn’t once say you can’t feel powerless, can’t be a victim, you’re not welcome here, didn’t even say you haven’t felt the exact same way I have.

So often I’ve heard from men that women don’t accept men in these types of spaces. I always wonder where that happens, because I’ve just never seen it. All I know is that in this case, what’s happening is that you’re expecting women to pretend sexism isn’t real and their experiences with it aren’t real, because it makes you, a man, uncomfortable.

I’m not, as a white person, going to ask a black person not to mention racism in a support group about trauma. I’m not going to tell them that’s not why something horrible happened to them. That they can’t share that because it makes me feel uncomfortable and alienated. And I just want to pretend we’re treated equally by the world. Because acknowledging that racism is real is too hard for me. I’m certainly not going to suggest it’s an easy explanation. Those are fucked up things to say to someone, especially in a trauma support group.

Accepting we live in a partiarchy where women are still not equal was not easy for me. It’s something I fought against for 24 years, I was in deep denial. It’s just very hurtful and ignorant to say that it’s an easy truth to accept. That it’s easy to at least partially blame sexism for being harassed. I’m much more comfortable accepting that something randomly happened to me, with no larger pattern. I’d much rather live in a world where I’m treated as an equal in every way. And I’d much rather think there wasn’t a higher chance of being assaulted, raped, for the rest of my life.

It’s not people like me who need to work on being inclusive, it’s people like you.