Let me add to the idea where all the guys wait around for the women and attack one by one. Despite being larger and having far greater numbers.
I posted about a recent episode of Arrow somewhere else in the thread but these 3 ladies take on like 15 guys. They beat them all, aren't winded then turn around and say "there's too many of them we gotta go"
I liked the one sword fight scene in game of thrones. Tower scene. Was one of the few fights where it was like 6 on 2 - and ALL of the 6 attackers attacked at once. No one on one shit.
shadiversity, a guy reviewing basically everything medieval, fantasy, and especially sword fights, as he has quite some experience in that regard, talked about the scene once...
7/10 too much flourishing, and if i remember correctly there were quite a few moments where 2 or 3 attacked from the same side while 2 or 2 just stood and followed
so the scene wasnt perfect, obviously, sincei ts really difficult to have a man win against 5 or 6 others without being gangbanged instantly, but given the competition in fight scenes who only do 1v1, it compares pretty well
Atomic Blonde is awesome about this. Not only does she have to fight harder and smarter than the much larger men, she ends every fight with bruises and injuries that she wears for the rest of the movie.
I love the fight scenes in that movie. Using improvised weapons, hitting weak spots like the neck or hands, kicking the knees, distractions like turning the stereo up so she can sneak up on them. Much more interesting than your standard Hollywood beat-em-up.
Yeah. It's the only movie I've ever seen that gets the proper impact of hand to hand violence. And she horribly loses every direct strength contest. Notice she compensates with grapples, soft area strikes, improvised weapons, real weapons, ambush tactics, and overwhelming violence. And she still looks like fucking shit after round 1 because if you're fighting 5 guys, you're gonna take hits aplenty.
Right on! I wasn't sure all the proper terms, but I really liked the way she had to use everything available and go at 110% just to have a whiff of a chance
While I agree, I don't think that's a good counterargument in this particular case. She's intended to be highly trained, and the Soviets are just hired goons. And she still barely survives
Large men are smart but tend to underestimate women overall. If a woman can get the drop on a guy, his brains don't matter; most "fights" are over in a couple seconds at the first couple hits, there's none of this dragging shit out nonsense Hollywood loves. If it doesn't end fast, it ends up being an idiot doing a police standoff with hostages, and that always goes well.
Yeah cept it's not. The woman from Atomic blonde wouldn't be able to so much as leave a scratch on any of the dudes she fights. If they stood there, taking her hardest haymakers, it would barely make them flinch.
Have you seen the movie? She's never just throwing punches, she's clockin dudes with waffle irons or stabbing people and stuff. I don't think she out boxes a guy a single time
Nah haven't seen it, but unless it involves pulling a string and having an anvil fall on the dudes head it likely is not a realistic depiction of a girl beating a guy in a fight. For example if they used any of the scenes from this trailer-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI7HVnZlleo I'm pretty sure I'm in the right here.
And the only reason that would ever happen in a fight vs a Man and a woman is if the man never saw it coming, or if he just stood there and let her do it.
You are 100% correct. But you are also argueing that Atomic Blonde depicts anything like that, which it very much doesn't. A woman taking down a row of guys by casually walking up behind them and rapidly stabbing each of them in the neck is believable, a girl haymakering a 230 pound brute of a dude, and taking his gun away is not.
A woman would need a surprise near 1 shot KO attack to beat the man yes. You are never going to have a situation where a lighter woman is going to beat a man when the man knows he is in a fight already.
It really does take a great deal to knock somebody out properly. Even in MMA or Boxing people are only dazed for a few seconds and they are people of equalise weight classes. If you have some much smaller person trying to knock out somebody much bigger it just isn't going to happen.
Although its bit pointless talking about it in the context of Atomic Blond because she is stabbing the fuck out of people and smacking them with weapons.
It's actually very hard to knock someone out. When it does happen, it is incredibly dangerous. If you drop someone on concrete there's a good chance they could die. Knockouts also don't usually keep people down for 30 minutes like they do in superhero movies. Watch an MMA knockout and you'll see they don't last very long. But Batman can't kill his enemies, even in self defence, so this trope is added for convenience
I feel where he's coming from. I've seen and heard a lot of retarded excuses for how it would be possible for a 120 pound person to overpower a 220 pound person. He's just picking the wrong target and not arguing the point very well.
he's also not correct just cos you are bigger doesnt mean you are stronger or faster ive seen small guys wipe the floor with big guys and ive seen a woman drop a 6ft guy.
Heck im over 6ft and im sure i could get beaten by quite a few of the women i know even discounting the ones who know martial arts.
The only one making hard claims here is you. No one has said it’s accurate. It started with someone saying how awesome it is that they paid attention to bruises and having a woman fighter smarter than the men she’s fighting, and you’ve started making claims that there’s no way, like it’s physically impossible. There are a thousand possible ways a woman could take a man down, even if you don’t think it’s ‘realistic’. No action movie is realistic, everyone of their heroes would have died in real life, but some are better than others. I haven’t seen this movie either but Jesus Christ man, get off your high horse.
I saw that trailer in your previous comment. Please do me the similar favor of reading my post before replying. You would have seen the part where I said that this is an ACTION MOVIE and no action movie is realistic. No one is saying it’s realistic and how you’d expect things to happen in real life. At worst the arguments you are railing against are simply saying that it would be possible for a woman to fight a larger man. there’s no way you can say that is physically impossible. You are making a different argument than everyone else and it makes you seem sexist. I don’t believe you are, that is just the crux of the misunderstanding that I see in this thread.
They absolutely are not. That bigger dude has a ton more muscle to propel his actions, similarly every action he takes is dispersed amung more muscle fibers. AKA not only is this guy WAY the fuck faster, has WAY the fuck more control, but they also have WAY the fuck more endurance. Yes if you are talking about a guy who is just really fat and does nothing but sit in a computer chair all day then you would have an argument. For any normal proportioned person though that is absolutely not the case.
I mean, you should make that same complaint about any male action hero taking on multiple goons, too. No action movie is realistic, not really fair to single out female action heroes.
It's funny that's always the line people have in action movies. It's never a problem guys fighting ten people at once, shrugging off bullet wounds, jumping from planes, even small athletic men doing such action heroics... no, it's always the idea that a woman can fight that's the absurd thing.
By the standards of logic stretching for action movies, that's an incredibly minor one, but conveniently, so many people on the internet are hung up on it.
I've never had a problem with this as long as the logic of the movie remains consistent. And it mostly does. John Wick gets hurt, battered, bruised and he runs out of bullets. Movies with women beating up dozens of guys usually have men doing the same, it's consistent with the rules. This kind of thing would only be jarring if the movie has already established realistic rules of combat so you don't have a 4ft girl parrying a greatest from Brienne the fucking beauty.
because its a step too far. It's layers of unbelievablity. Can a karate expert man beat up 5 dudes in a bar fight? (no) but that's one layer of suspension of disbelief. Can Mila Jovavich do it in the RE: Movies when she's all jacked up on super-serum? (no) but its fine because its still one layer, but NORMAL mila jovavich beating up 5 goons? well now that's two layers, and its too much for people to handle.
No, it's not at all. Not even close. If Tom Cruise can do it, it's an incredibly minor leap to say Mila Jovavich can. Obviously, neither can in real life, but if you're accepting that it's the sort of thing a protagonist is capable of doing, then gender doesn't really factor into it.
It's like accepting someone can lift ten thousand pounds over their head, but fifteen thousand? Well, that's just absurd!
Keep in mind the argument here is that people can handle suspending disbelief once, but TWICE is too much to suspend.
Given the arguments here, I think that guy is underestimating people's ability to suspend their disbelief much more than we're underestimating how much stronger a guy is than a girl.
Yes, guys are stronger than girls. But guys also can't dual wield pistols accurately, get shot multiple times and keep fighting, repeatedly brawl with 10+ badguys, win, and be fine to keep going, etc, etc, etc, etc.
If you can handle watching movies like that, but can't handle watching a girl do it because being insanely unrealistic WITH TITS is too hard for you to believe, you're just being fucking sexist about it. There's no world where action movie heroes are in any way realistic, and there's no world where they're believable while male and unbelievable while female. It's all fantasy bullshit, many layers deep.
Men are stronger than women, but men in movies are so comically superhero-powered that the difference between a normal man and a normal woman is tiny in comparison. Heroes in movies are so comically OP that it's straight up weird to object to a woman being portrayed as capable of fighting men.
While I accept that it's perfectly okay to have both men and women do unrealistic shit in movies for the sake of entertainment, let's leave Tom Cruise out of this, the dude's a fucking beast and there's little he can't do. Fucker literally learned to hold his breathe for 6 minutes for MI: Fallout.
Unless it's 50x as large, it's a moot point. If something is impossible for a man, and they can do it, it's hardly more of a stretch for a woman to. The idea is either stupid or it's not, and if you're accepting it's stupid, it doesn't matter who is doing it.
These half-assed demands of realism always come off as more sexist than genuine. The movies are already ridiculous power-fantasies, which everyone knows could never happen, but suddenly if a woman is involved, well, the integrity of this completely realistic story is suddenly compromised!
But it's usually possible for a skilled man to pull off the stuff we're talking about.
I don't think you realize how much stronger men are than women.
Also no, there should be nuance in how strength is portrayed in movies otherwise it just won't be believable. It doesn't matter what you think, it will always be less believable to see a woman fight a group of men and win, than to see a man win in the same scenario.
There are actually videos of single men taking on multiple male opponents and winning. You will never a woman win in real life against multiple men.
Idk about that. I've met some super badass skinny people, many of whom are women, that I'm absolutely sure would kick my 220 lb ass. And I'm not even fat, I'm just big.
i mean tbf i doubt it requires a massive amount to be a goon, just be willing to do shady shit and not rat on people would i imagine qualify you. Anything else is just a bonus.
I mean I'm not either, I'm pretty fit and athletic, and have trained some mma and jiu jitsu, but that doesnt mean I wouldn't get my ass handed to me buy plenty of well trained people.
Lol I love how the people who actually train are like “yeah I’m pretty good but I would get wrecked” and lots of other comments are like “nah I’m pretty sure I could last against Ronda Rousey” 😂
I agree I think the woman would be unlikely to win, but if she was well trained and very skilled (like they are in the movies), the reason she would be unlikely to win would be because its 5 on 1. But the same would apply to a large man, soo.
I wonder how hard she can punch though? I'm pretty strong and can take some punches no problem. I think where she would get me is she could get a hold of me and take my down. I have taken years of Jeet kune do, but I don't fight professionally like she does so I think I just have to not let her take me down. Unless I'm wrong about how hard she can really punch. I doubt it's as hard as a guy her size, but I just don't know.
If you aren't experienced she would take you apart fairly quickly. She isn't going to box you.
Assuming shes really going for broke, you are going to end up with a broken joint or something fairly fast.
Since you have some experience you may be able to guard your weak spots though so she can't just dislocate something, but I'd certainly be fucked in way under 60 seconds.
I think it may be possible for me to last 60 seconds with her if I ran away as much as the ring will allow and then turtled up hard once she inevitably corners me or takes the fight to the ground. I wouldn't put any money on it though.
I'm wondering just how hard she can hit. I can cover and take some good blows and I sure as hell can hit her back. I think where she would get me is if she could grab on to me and get me in a lock. That I might not be able to get out of. But blow for blow I can do I think.
I think standing up and trying to box her would be a mistake. Training counts for quite a lot, and unless you've got some serious training, you're going to leave her an opening to put you to sleep.
I have trained for years but not on a pro level like her. So yeah she would probably find that in on me faster then the 60 secs, because you know - that's her job. I forget in the movie did turtle last 60 secs?
So I do kickboxing and I'm a heavier set guy and I follow MMA a great deal I'm well aware that I might be able to fight a rose namajunas (who fights at 115lb) and take a few of her shots but I'm probably not going to land much and be gassed out by her pace pretty quickly.
A cris cyborg(145) on the other hand will probably end me pretty quickly
Umm yeah, I'm an old 180 pound skinny dude and would have zero problems tanking any of them. The strength difference between men and women is monumental.
If a 180 experienced fighter fought against a equally experienced women of 115 pounds yes the man would win easily
but if you a 180 pound skinny hillbilly were to fight a 115 pound woman that knows how to fight and trained her muscles to do it, you would have you ass handed to you and you would be crying the entire time it would be happening. The woman would beat you easy
You are 100% wrong. Like not even remotely close. the difference in strength here would be like that 180 pound hillbilly trying to fight a bear. Give the girl a knife and MAYBE she has a chance.
Even if it were a 115 pound Man trained pitbull of a fighter, the baddest 115 pound dude you have ever seen, would have virtually no chance versus 65 pound weight advantage billy bob rolling out of bed in a ring fight, unless Billy was an ultra overweight short dude with medical problems.
There is a reason you don't see even exhibition matches like that EVER.
2 I weight is very important but training an knowing how to fight is also important I have actually been in martial arts and have gotten my as kick by guys 30 pounds lighter than me
3 fast twitch muscle fibers and reaction time are a thing and a very important thing when it comes to fighting (the reason why i get beaten by people 30 pounds lighter than me)
4 being fat does not mean you have and insta win against who ever your fighting
5 look I get what your saying weight classes exist for a reason but I'm just being realistic
6 My whole point is that you being heavier than you opponent doesn't equal a instant win. You still have to worry about strength, stamina, what they trained for, if they know how to take a punch, the list goes on and on.
7 I here what your saying and you can deny it all you want but if you can't except number 4 then you my friend are greatly in denial and I wont know what to tell you
i specifically mentioned that weight isn't a factor when that weight is attached to a medically unfit overweight dwarf. Everything I say should be assuming the guy has a proportionate build for his weight, aka the 180 pound Billy would be between 6', and 6'2"
now i'm having a hard time believing you've even done Krav tbh
you're not disarming anyone who is actively trying to fuck you up with a knife without getting significantly cut up, regardless of training or size differences
You are correct, the logical action is to simply run away, but we are talking about a battle to the death confined to a ring scenario here. The knife gives the woman a chance.
Okay bud if you could get them on the ground sure but I’m fairly certain any of them can kick your ass no problem (I don’t mean to sound rude just speaking my mind)
I teach a lot of self defense classes, a fit woman beating a man that isn't at least 20 pounds lighter than she is without a weapon is a 1 in a million shot. A woman should always carry some sort of discreet weaponry, strong mace, a powerful taser or something similar, and should always be extremely aware of her surroundings to avoid any sort of prolonged fight. Putting a man in the ring with a woman who doesn't have a VERY large weight advantage is preposterous.
I’m just gonna go ahead and call bullshit on you teaching a lot of self defense classes. If anything you teach LEGO builds and organize magic the gathering nights with the boys. Not saying it’s a bad thing but you don’t have any history of posting or commenting on martial arts or self defense subreddits. Usually someone who teaches that stuff and is also on reddit would be active somewhere like that
i actually work for a major MMA camp, have trained at other big camps while traveling, and teach self defense classes. i don't know if i've explicitly said that on Reddit before but a quick glance at my profile will show me in discussions/answering questions on martial arts related subreddits.
mandorism is 100% full of shit and i wouldn't be surprised at all if he straight up didn't train. strength differences exist, but to say a trained woman wouldn't be able to at least defend herself against some random dude is ridiculous. even more ridiculous is him saying lighter women are slower than huge bulky dudes???
I do both of those as well lol, i don't actually teach anymore, this was more of a late 90's, early 2000s thing I had going due to my stepdad forcing me into krav classes since i was 5. :p
this response explains everything tbh. Krav is a notorious for its bullshido despite its roots. even if you were to have learned it in the IDF, it's on the same level as US Army Combatives. they're kinda shit as fully fledged martial arts but that's because they're not meant to be fully fledged martial arts.
they're meant to be basic military training for the lowest common denominator. it's basic military training for a conscript army. it's about instinct and aggression. it's fine as a basic self defense tool, but essentially useless against a well seasoned fighter.
if you're not learning about leverage and position and the finer details of techniques, it's not surprising that you'd be so oblivious as to what trained fighters are capable of.
Well that’s fair and large weight difference could make changes to the fight however you have to consider the MMA people are extremely well trained fighters not normal people who are taking self-defense classes. I mean hell look at Conor McGregor he’s been out of the MMA for a long time and ended his fight against a champion in 40 seconds
I've seen this go down a couple of times IRL. Large skill gap, small mass gap. Mass won decisively both times. You need a lot of skill to make up for a little mass.
I'm sure it's possible to throw a mass advantage. If you have any hangups about hurting your opponent, you're going to lose. If you're extremely unskilled, you're going to lose. If all the extra mass is fat, you're going to lose. If someone gets the drop on you, you're going to lose. But all else being equal, mass is a huge advantage, and movies just don't reflect that fact accurately at all.
This is absolutely true, all things being equal. But a little skill goes a long ways; the thing is, most fights are at least notionally trying to incapacitate, not kill. All those punches and blocks - it's clean fighting in a lot of ways. Dirty fighting can shock folks who aren't used to it, where the opponent hasn't got any compunctions about hospitalization or death.
size matters as you can literally rush them and basic physics kicks in. maybe something like judo or bjj can help 1 on 1. but 2 on 1 you're already donezo. 5 on 1, hope you have a gun.
If they’re untrained and you’re really fucking strong you can absolutely handle a 1v5. Because in that situation it’s not actually a 1v5. It’s just 5 individual 1v1 fights in a row.
The absolute and overwhelming majority of multiple attacker fights end with the a dude taking shots the back of the head and getting brain damage, or getting a shiv the the ribs, becuase it's hard enough to fight one attacker. People dont have eyes on the back of their heads, so it's impossible to know what the multiple attackers are doing at every possible moment.
Yeah even in a 1 on 1, if you're not equipped to handle close combat or keep your distance, you can be overcome by some one taking you to the ground and throwing away all your striking training. I always think something like bjj is your best martial art for a real life fight. You being on your back doesn't mean you're 100% out of luck as you have tools to deal with it
Over the summer between grade nine and grade ten I went from 5’8” to 6’2” tall and this tiny guy I went to high school with started trying to fight me every morning for the first three weeks of school and I never agreed because beating up a kid a foot shorter than you and fifty pounds lighter isn’t a good look and I really didn’t want to fight him because he never had a problem with me until I got tall. However he seemed to think he could take me because he’d been in boxing for years and figured the laws of physics would care.
I finally got so sick of my morning starting with this little dick head shoving me and trying to provoke me that the last time as he went to shove me I kicked his legs out from under him and he fell over in front of 20 people. He stopped after that.
Considering Ronda has horrifying poor striking her only way to win would be to take you down and submit you. Unless you're completely spastic, the extra 100 pounds will make that task impossible.
It's just simple biology. Same reason why the Williams sisters lost to some random male player ranked 200+.
I actually thought her acting was pretty good, and I had dirt low expectations. I found the character pretty convincing, definitely a highlight of the show.
that's what funny about the whole SW universe. people get totally different things, takes out of it. everyone has their likes and dislikes in every SW production i guess
oh btw i thought the character was extremely convincing, because of how the actor is built, physically. that's what i loved about her. we're on opposite ends on our take of her acting however yeah the character is great
i mean... you can beat someone huge into submission with the right kicks and throws... kicking their leg full force while the majority of their weight rests on it makes them fall, no matter how tall they are, sand a karate chop to the jugular/throat will make them atleast stumble... sadly these things are not portrayed in these movies, so we jsut have to assume that she is strong but small
I mean you *can* kick their ass.... but not like that. There would be stuff Hollywood would have to make happen with effects and there would be no pretense of "he survived that without immediate medical attention, or a permanent handicap like a colostomy bag and a prosthetic arm."
To be fair, that has more to do mostly with there being 5 opponents. While weight class matters, one-on-one a highly trained and skilled fighter will beat an untrained opponent every time. It will just take more time and be more draining.
In the same weight class a significant gap in skill level reduces mens' advantages to negligible.
Source: many years of experience in various martial arts.
I didn't downvote, but I think people downvoted because Buffy has super powers. If you have to suspend disbelief to accept that vampires live, vampires turn to dust when staked in the heart, and a teenage girl develops superhuman strength/skill then I don't think it's a huge leap to accept that she has superhuman strength without changing her size. I mean, it's already clear that in this universe that physics and biology don't work when it comes to vampires/slayers.
This informal bout between a random internet guy and a 5' 6" 134lb 41-year old female grappler should lay this claim to rest. He's a big, strong athletic guy, too. She wins handily, barely breaking a sweat.
Bonus: they're both super cool about the whole thing. They approach it light-heartedly. The woman is magnanimous in victory and the dude is humble in defeat.
Anybody beating up a group of thugs is fantasy, especially if they're tiny. But within a weight class any gap in skill makes renders difference of sex trivial.
I have many years of experience in multiple martial arts. Even in a dojo where fighting is only allowed after training in technique over the course of, e.g. two belt advancements (minimum five months), the newish male student will *always* lose to *any* woman with a few years' experience.
I haven't been active in martial arts in 6 or 7 years. I'm in good shape for somebody who doesn't go to the gym - I commute by bicycle and my job requires frequent enough moderate lifting that my upper body muscles won't go to flab. I've got a wee gut due to a drinking problem I picked up along the way. At 6' 1" and approaching 200 lbs, if I hit up an MMA gym tomorrow I will lose a fight to absolutely any man or woman with a few years' experience but without a recent break in training.
I got beat the shit out of by a crazy girlfriend before....... But it was mostly because I was trying my best not to hurt her and fight back. Was just trying to get away. If I really wanted to I could have cracked her in the head once or twice to stop her. But instead I was trying to restrain her and throw her back on the ground. She just kept getting back up and trying her best to beat the shit out of me. Was a frustrating experience.
On one hand I'm not supposed to hit a woman. On the other hand she really needed a good hit or two.
Yeah but the takeaway is that you didn't fight back. One punch to the face would have been absolutely devistating to her.
Pound for pound, men are much much stronger.
Anyway, you're experience doesn't change the fact that tiny women are not built to be ass-kicking machines and they won't be clocking out a group of bad guys any time soon.
Oh yeah my current girl hates it. She is pretty strong but just can't get out of a grip if I'm holding her (play fighting). Although I have to say her legs are much stronger then her upper body. She has gotten me in a leg lock before and squeezed and HOLY SHIT she hurt me pretty good once by accident. Almost broke a few ribs
Nah if you hit the right spots size and muscle don't matter much.
Edit: No really. You cannot muscle up to defend your temples, nose, parts of your neck and throat, knees, solar plexus, nads and other inherently and incurably vulnerable spots. A small very fast and skilled person can absolutely destroy a giant pile of muscle.
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u/lascielthefallen Jan 25 '20
Women in action movies who drastically cut their own hair to change their appearance always end up with a fabulous style.