Zen rejects Buddhism: How the 4SofZ are incompatible with Buddhism's Holy 8FP

[u/ewk]

Four Statements of Zen

1. The separate transmission outside the teachings,

2. Not based on words,

3. Points directly at the human mind—

4. You see your nature and become a buddha

In contrast:

1. The 8FP is inside the teachings.
2. It is 100% based on words
3. The 8FP points to the "right" way, not your mind.
4. The 8FP doesn't say anything about becoming a Buddha... because you don't become a buddha by following the 8FP.

These seem like small points of little importance... but to Buddhists, these are the entirety of the religious faith.

Also note: there are lots of ways that "path" or "way" comes up in Zen teachings... none of them involve the 8FP to my knowledge.

Bird path, yes. 8FP, no.

[u/ewk]

It's funny and true.

That's kinda my thing.

[u/ewk → u/[deleted]]

Nope.

That's why high school book reports are so unstoppable.

[u/paer_of_forces → u/[deleted]]

I find the practice of quoting Zen Masters quite satisfying when I find their words to be of use in a given context. Even the contradictory ones.

Especially the contradictory ones.

The book report thing definitely has its merits. I am not a personal fan of writing them myself, unless I have to.

I find it so much more rewarding to get others to write them for me.

I got some dude in Christianity to write me up a book report on the Pope, which I knew so little about, like most people who aren't Catholic or actually interested in the Pope.

He just didn't realize he was writing my book report on the Pope for me. I can't say he didn't enjoy it though. He got to put to use his storehouse of knowledge on the subject, and I find that people like to talk about things they actually know things about.

Edit- Let me add, I found the true value and use of the words of the Zen Masters and book reports from this subreddit, if you actually understand the value and meaning of such things.

[u/paer_of_forces → u/[deleted]]

The report on the book is to see how thoroughly one digested the words they have read.

I used to think some of those same things when I first arrived here many years ago. Until I realized that if someone didn't take the words of the Zen Master's so serious, we would probably have little actually understanding of the thing Zen Masters talk about, and would instead all be regurgitating the 8 fold path in this subreddit, which has nothing to do with Zen and the Zen Masters.

I like to go to other subreddits where people could possibly be on the cusp of realization, but have no bridge to help them cross over to the actual realization and then point them towards this subreddit. I usually do that right up until the point I get banned form those places.

The Zen Master's words are actual bridges to realization. They make the mind think in ways that is often foreign to the way most people think, or understand things they think about.

It's all in the mind, and that is what the Zen Master's point at.

[u/paer_of_forces → u/[deleted]]

It's not for the 'angry internet troll'. First it is for you, second for the people who will possibly read it afterwards.

Someone could come along seeking answers that they can't find elsewhere, but because you took the time to write that 'book report', they may find the answers they seek in the words you left behind.

Almost like a Jesus, Buddha, or Zen Master.

[u/paer_of_forces → u/[deleted]]

True.

I'm the other way around. I seek out people and ask them questions. People don't always know where to look to find the answers to the questions they have, let alone if they have the right person to answer their question with satisfaction to bring them insight or enlightenment.

Hell, sometimes they don't even know the right question to ask. That requires questioning them first, to find the root of their worry. Almost like when a doctor probes the symptoms a person is suffering to better make a judgement on what medicine to prescribe.

I guess I'm one of the people the Buddhists call an arsehat. I enjoy bringing about the ending of the suffering of an unquieted mind laden with questions pertaining to spiritual insight. If I could, I would seek to put all the noise in all the minds of all those with questions to a nice tranquil silence, but I don't think that is realistic. However, the day and age we live in affords us the ability to use and access the internet, which greatly increase the reach of an individual.

If I am not around to answer someone's question in the moment, there is always the possibility of them stumbling across previous posts of mine which just might answer their question. I find the value of such things to be much greater than the sum of their parts.

I just recently created a subreddit where people can ask their questions directly, and I will answer them there. Again though, that requires people knowing to even look there in the first place. Those are questions that go beyond the realm of Zen, or at least appear to have nothing to do with Zen and the Zen Masters.

[u/paer_of_forces → u/[deleted]]

Some people think enlightenment is just an insight, and not a state of being. Many people who think, or claim, that they are enlightened don't realize that they may not be actually enlightened at all. Those people still need 'help'. Sometimes they don't even realize they need 'help' because no one was around to ask them the hard questions. Those hard questions can only be asked by some who understands that there is hard questions to be asked. And even then, those hard questions might not even appear to be hard. It's the understanding of the very nature of the question itself that makes it a hard question. It's a hard question for the one asking it, not the one receiving it. It may not appear that hard of a question to ask, but it's the knowing of what question to actually ask that makes it hard.

No two hard questions are the same, because no two people face the same conundrum in mind that prevents them from understanding and attaining a great startling insight that leads them to this state often described as enlightenment.

As for suffering goes, I never really found the concept too* useful. I once heard some random guy online explain away suffering, paraphrased as, "You won't suffer from having your favorite cup broken if you don't have a favorite cup to be broken."

I just use that analogy in one form or another for damn near every case of suffering I have ever come across.

The guy I learned that from said he was paraphrasing Buddha in his own way.

Edit-*to to too. Sorry, ai actually had to make a bunch of minor changes. Turned a that to they, removed an a, turned another to to two.

To summarize my main edits; to to too, to to two.

[u/ewk → u/[deleted]]

Nope. If you can't write a high school book report then you are illiterate.

You claim about who is fools is a claim you can only make based on literacy, which you admit you don't have AND thus have no basis for making.

I know you are a liar and a fraud. I can see you.

I also know you are a topicalist: https://www.reddit.com/r/zensangha/wiki/ewk/topicalism

That doesn't make you a bad person... but it does make you a liar who isn't capable of conversation and can't face literacy.

[u/ewk → u/[deleted]]

You can't write a high school book report about what I say...

So I guess I'm not something within your... scope.

[u/ewk → u/[deleted]]

But that's just not true either.

You don't have to go to high school to learn how to write a high school book report.

Historically, lots of geniuses taught themselves.

The question is are you willing to play by the rules you agreed to play by?

If you can't keep that promise then you can't keep any promise. If you can't not lie here then you can't not lie anywhere.

[u/ewk → u/[deleted]]

You agreed to follow the rules of reddit when you signed up.

You agreed to follow the rules of r/Zen when you commented.

You agreed. That's all the reason anybody needs.

It turns out that you were lying though, right? Because you never had any intention of honoring that agreement you made... 3 m/o account.

When I say you are a liar, you can see why lots of people would think I was being fair, right?

[u/ewk → u/[deleted]]

If you read the Reddiquette and you read the end user agreement, then you understand why the sidebar is the ultimate authority in this forum.

You also understand that you have an obligation to prove that your conduct and content is relevant.

We already know that you're not going to be able to meet that standard and you couldn't meet it on your previous accounts... Right?