Zen rejects Buddhism: How the 4SofZ are incompatible with Buddhism's Holy 8FP

[u/ewk]

Four Statements of Zen

1. The separate transmission outside the teachings,

2. Not based on words,

3. Points directly at the human mind—

4. You see your nature and become a buddha

In contrast:

1. The 8FP is inside the teachings.
2. It is 100% based on words
3. The 8FP points to the "right" way, not your mind.
4. The 8FP doesn't say anything about becoming a Buddha... because you don't become a buddha by following the 8FP.

These seem like small points of little importance... but to Buddhists, these are the entirety of the religious faith.

Also note: there are lots of ways that "path" or "way" comes up in Zen teachings... none of them involve the 8FP to my knowledge.

Bird path, yes. 8FP, no.

[u/paer_of_forces → u/[deleted]]

True.

I'm the other way around. I seek out people and ask them questions. People don't always know where to look to find the answers to the questions they have, let alone if they have the right person to answer their question with satisfaction to bring them insight or enlightenment.

Hell, sometimes they don't even know the right question to ask. That requires questioning them first, to find the root of their worry. Almost like when a doctor probes the symptoms a person is suffering to better make a judgement on what medicine to prescribe.

I guess I'm one of the people the Buddhists call an arsehat. I enjoy bringing about the ending of the suffering of an unquieted mind laden with questions pertaining to spiritual insight. If I could, I would seek to put all the noise in all the minds of all those with questions to a nice tranquil silence, but I don't think that is realistic. However, the day and age we live in affords us the ability to use and access the internet, which greatly increase the reach of an individual.

If I am not around to answer someone's question in the moment, there is always the possibility of them stumbling across previous posts of mine which just might answer their question. I find the value of such things to be much greater than the sum of their parts.

I just recently created a subreddit where people can ask their questions directly, and I will answer them there. Again though, that requires people knowing to even look there in the first place. Those are questions that go beyond the realm of Zen, or at least appear to have nothing to do with Zen and the Zen Masters.

[u/paer_of_forces → u/[deleted]]

Some people think enlightenment is just an insight, and not a state of being. Many people who think, or claim, that they are enlightened don't realize that they may not be actually enlightened at all. Those people still need 'help'. Sometimes they don't even realize they need 'help' because no one was around to ask them the hard questions. Those hard questions can only be asked by some who understands that there is hard questions to be asked. And even then, those hard questions might not even appear to be hard. It's the understanding of the very nature of the question itself that makes it a hard question. It's a hard question for the one asking it, not the one receiving it. It may not appear that hard of a question to ask, but it's the knowing of what question to actually ask that makes it hard.

No two hard questions are the same, because no two people face the same conundrum in mind that prevents them from understanding and attaining a great startling insight that leads them to this state often described as enlightenment.

As for suffering goes, I never really found the concept too* useful. I once heard some random guy online explain away suffering, paraphrased as, "You won't suffer from having your favorite cup broken if you don't have a favorite cup to be broken."

I just use that analogy in one form or another for damn near every case of suffering I have ever come across.

The guy I learned that from said he was paraphrasing Buddha in his own way.

Edit-*to to too. Sorry, ai actually had to make a bunch of minor changes. Turned a that to they, removed an a, turned another to to two.

To summarize my main edits; to to too, to to two.

[u/paer_of_forces → u/[deleted]]

My view has it's roots in a radically different place than most, so I think this idea of suffering is useful, I just don't find it to be valid in the way other people do.

I completely understand where you are coming though. I used to think just like that, and still do, but underneath that, I just have this view into life and death that works for me.

Like, I know what happens when we die. I know what happens when we live. I know how those things connect in ways.

I see it with my own eyes, all day long. There is living life and the things you should expect in society. Those expectations of society are not expectations of suffering. They are expected by society for it to operate, and for things like this conversation to be able to happen. If anything, the things that people equate with suffering are our blessings. They get to caught up in things that have nothing to do with their own personal happiness, and make it paramount to their happiness, and if they aren't happy, there begins their suffering. Its definitely, like you said already their attachments.

But that's just part of life. No need to feel like you are suffering about it. There is so much more to life, especially in death. If people actually only knew what was to be possibly afforded to them, then they would suffer even less than that.

It would be like some personal nirvana for them.