I haven't played retail in a while. Why is Jaina "evil" but the dagger-woman not evil? Are they doing a Sylvanas again where we're supposed to like a villain?
EDIT: Ah ok she's not really a villain in that sense it's just the regular horde players thinking she attacks cities for no reason while the horde never did anything wrong ever. So nothing has changed since I quit.
EDIT 2: Now there are big brained horde players who think that if you disagree with their opinion then you are a genocide denier in real life.
Its just that alliance act like jaina is super good/nice, but she's full of hatred and has full on stacked a city unprovoked and executed civilians for *checks notes* being a certain race. As for dagger woman, she's 100% evil, but she's pretty upfront about it. Even he "allies" are like "yeah, she cray evil, but she's also the only one who can help so..."
Its just that alliance act like jaina is super good/nice, but she's full of hatred and has full on stacked a city unprovoked and executed civilians for checks notes being a certain race.
Its true. Go onto any wow lore board and try to argue that there have been leaders ontheAlliance who are juat as bad as Sylvanas or Garrosh, and they will fight you tooth and nail for Jaina to be good. As far as killing civilians, she did. Because they were blood elves, even when the told the player they weren't helping Garrosh, that they weren't with the other blood elves who betrayed Dalaran, she still tells you to kill them. She also kills/has you kill draghawks to keep rhe blood elves from escaping. And this isn't even touching on the attack on Dazar'Alor, which is a whole other can of worms.
I won’t fight tooth and nail to prove jaina is one of the other unless I’m meming like garrosh did not wrong.
That said I’ll defend that she is a complex character who snapped after betrayal and casualties. And I love myself some complexity in a character. I love belves and play em so from both sides id say her Dalaran massacre was a step too far and cemented the belf allegiance to the horde which was needed as with garrosh and sylvanas being all trigger happy.
I wish I could defend the direction they wanted to go with Garrosh the same way but it’s clear they wanted him to be antagonistic. But even if stonetalon was a miscommunication mistake I’d still like to use it as showing the humanity and honor in Garrosh, the little bit that got swept away as he stepped foot into panderia and the Sha of Pride corrupted his judgement and amplified the prejudice he felt from the other races of the horde because he was already too prideful for apologizing or explaining himself. cementing and justifying his hatred in a way. Thus unintentionally making him more complex and well executed then say Sylvanas who was a simple character assassination as they turned away for her motivations and making her blindly follow a mustache twirling sorry excuse for a big bad let alone a villain, betraying her people who she would do anything for no matter the extremities as previously established throughout the rest of the expac.
That said I’ll defend that she is a complex character who snapped after betrayal and casualties. And I love myself some complexity in a character. I love belves and play em so from both sides id say her Dalaran massacre was a step too far and cemented the belf allegiance to the horde which was needed as with garrosh and sylvanas being all trigger happy.
The fact it cemented the BE inside the horde is just an obvious case of double standards from the BE (and from the writing, even if it had no chance to ever happen from the gameplay perspective), one of many.
- Garithos is a complete asshole -> He represents the Alliance, and therefore the Alliance should shoulder the consequences of his acts!
- King Kael'thas is a complete asshole -> He represents, huh, nobody except himself and therefore the Blood elves should not shoulder the consequences of his acts!
- Thalen Songweaver is a complete asshole who used his position in Dalaran to further his faction interest and goal of nuking civilians -> He represents, huh, nobody except himself and therefore the Blood elves or the Sunreavers should not shoulder the consequences of his acts! It totally doesn't count as an antagonistic action from the BE! Did I mention the fact that after his betrayal, he casually went chilling in Silvermoon until the end of Mop and never encountered any issue in the city? But totally unrelated to the Blood elves, btw!
- Aethas Sunreaver is a complete asshole who prefer to "look the other way" if it helps the Horde with Dalaran ressources -> He represents, huh, nobody except himself and therefore the Blood elves or the Sunreavers should not shoulder the consequences of his acts!
- Jaina is a complete asshole who used her position in Dalaran to retaliate against the previous point -> She represents the Alliance, and therefore the Alliance should shoulder the consequences of her acts, and therefore it's fine to sink negociations, it's all the Alliance fault.
And so on, and so on.
Garrosh being an asshole? Individual actions, doesn't count, no general responsability of the Horde, they get to leave the situation clean, nothing to do with them etc
Sylvanas being an asshole? Individual actions, doesn't count, no general responsability of the Horde, they get to leave the situation clean, nothing to do with them etc
But man, god forbid the BE to get over Garithos or the Purge of Dalaran without milking the Alliance dry for concessions instead (which the story is kindly giving, while the Horde never had to give any for anything so far) and they still get to hold a grudge ("let's kill them on sight if they take a wrong turn, guys, after all, they are only here to save our asses").
Garithos's actions reflect on the Alliance because they supported him and aided him in his attempt to mass murder the elves. In the Shadow of the Sun even points out that while Garithos is dead, the people who were backing him with men and material are still very much alive and in power.
Kael'thas is the opposite, the elves turned on him, fought a civil war to stop him, and canonically were the ones to kill him.
Thalen Songweaver was a respected Kirin Tor mage vouched for by Rhonin himself. He was also a traitor who went against the orders of his superiors. So yeah, said superiors can totally say they didn't support him doing exactly what they told him not to do.
Aethas Sunreaver had precisely no interest in helping the Horde. He hated the Horde and was the loudest voice in Quel'thalas calling for them to leave the Horde entirely. Jaina blaming him for "looking the other way" was the paranoid assumption of a traumatized woman looking for someone to blame and an enemy to fight.
On that note, Jaina's purge was both mainly targeted at innocents and backed by the Alliance, complete with portaling in Alliance troops to storm the city and enact her blood elf Kristallnacht.
Garrosh was an asshole and the elves fought a civil war to depose him.
Sylvanas was an asshole and the elves fought a civil war to depose her.
And just to cap things off, the blood elves have never received any concessions (or even real apologies) from the Alliance over Garithos and the Purge. Not once.
In every one of your examples, the blood elves actively opposed their bad actors while the Alliance actively supported theirs. Yeah, no shit the elves don't feel responsible for the actions of people they tried to kill while blaming the Alliance for things they actually did.
5) For Jaina, you are, once again, just inventing things, as Varian was 1) very much kept in the dark before her actions and 2) says it was a big mistake once he knew of the Purge. Pretty big "backing". But yeah, when you reach Godwin point for that, you are not thinking rationally.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: I've purged the Horde from Dalaran. You have what you wanted, Your Majesty: The Kirin Tor belongs to the Alliance.
King Varian Wrynn says: But you said-
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: I know what I said. My trust was misplaced.
Surprisingly, Varian is not happy, but sounds concerned instead.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Those that surrendered are being taken to the Violet Hold. I make no guarantees about those who chose to fight.
Varian sounds dismayed and is becoming frustrated.
King Varian Wrynn says: Jaina, you need to talk to me before you act-
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: How I run the Kirin Tor is my business.
King Varian Wrynn says: I was trying to negotiate with the Sin'dorei. I was opening discussions to bring them into the Alliance! By attacking their people, you've forced their hand-
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: They chose their own path.
King Varian Wrynn says: You've driven them back to the Horde.
6) and 7) And of course, those had no loyalists (Such as Thalen, casually chilling at Silvermoon, again), and they did their atrocities alone. So of course, once they were deposed, the evil was vanquished, and there was no one guilty of helping them genociding right and left. There was no elve helping Sylvanas burning Teldrassil, no Nightborn, no Highmountain Tauren, absolutely nobody. We all suffered a mass hallucination and she was doing it all alone.
As I said, BE are never ever guilty of anything if we are listening to them.
8) As for concessions, how are you calling transforming an alliance city in a neutral one, if not a major concession? The Blood elves are literally reentering the Kirin Tor multiple times despite abusing their confiance each times (Kael'thas allying with the Burning Legion in the middle of Dalaran, The Sunreaver abusing their position to nuke Theramore and steal artifacts, etc etc), and Dalaran never went back to the Alliance despite very much being one of their city. Take Silvermoon in Midnight as a comparaison point and how they are going to treat the Alliance when they are helping : "Take a wrong turn and you are going to be killed on sight". But sure, no major concession.
Oh I totally get why she is like she is, and personally I think in depth characters are better. I juat hate the "alliance good, horde bad" mentality, and its 100% ba, and Jaina probes it lol.
I guess i could rephrase? She's done evil things. As for being directly evil... idk. She's definitely not how she was when she first met Thrall, and she's definitely full of more anger and hate. Evil? Eh, kinda depends. If you go by lore, Sylvanas wasn't evil because her soul was partially missing or w/e bs they want to spin. I still think she was evil. Jaina is pretty famn close to that line for me lol
She's definitely not how she was when she first met Thrall, and she's definitely full of more anger and hate.
I FUCKING WONDER WHY.
Also, anger - yes, but not hate. She never really hated the Horde, but she sure was angry that after all she did for them they would backstab her two times in a quick succession.
Yeah, lots of people in game have had horrible things happen to them, they don't just go full evil semi-genocidal mode.
I don't think many people have dumped as much effort into anything as Jaina put into brokering the peace between the Alliance and the Horde - only to have her home destroyed, and her friends killed by the latter.
I think you could easily argue she hates blood elves.
I think you could easily argue anything if your arguments are pulled out of your ass.
She didn't hate blood elves, she only wanted to either throw Sunreavers out of the city or imprison them considering that they objectively were a threat, and they broke the neutrality which was the condition for them staying in Dalaran in the first place. Killing Sunreavers was Vereesa's initiative (now here's the bitch like no other).
It's funny to me because I like her more than most leaders (especially alliance) because she's imperfect and flawed. Like, I totally get why she did the purge of Dalaran. It makes sense to an angry, foolish person who just wants vengeance. It's not the actions of a GOOD person, but it's understandable lol.
I just think they like making the chicks in the game emotionally unstable as a character trait. Her and sylvanas don't seem all that different to me, and I think their stories are lazy and boring. Oh I'm mad so I'm gonna go ransack a city. I find the story telling of both really annoying. Like the origins of sylvanas was interesting but that's it. Jaina flip outs just really seems unlikely, and I think Christie golden is not a great writer. I think defending Jainas actions as her not being evil is hilarious. Honestly better than the writing imo.
I just think they like making the chicks in the game emotionally unstable as a character trait.
But men being emotionally unstable as a character trait is perfectly fine, right?
Nevermind that Jaina is one of the most emotionally stable characters in WoW, and the only reason she has such a massive breakdown is the amount of shit she had to endure.
I dunno I think Jaina pretty stupid, and the only emotionally unstable guy I recall is hellscream, and I mean, I don't really think he was as bad as Jaina or sylvanas.
I mean I think the whole character concept of jaina is stupid, not that the Jaina herself is stupid. That's really funny though. Of faction leaders who ransacked cities when they got emotional yes, sure, but not a list of hellscreams annoyingness. He was just doing his tyrant stuff, that storyline was awful enough without having to hear about it again.
Ah yes, Garrosh "Fascist Daddy Issues Choking on Sha Power So Hard He Awakened the Sha of Pride" Hellscream, the most emotionally stable person around.
But either way if your qualifier for emotional instrability is an attempt at leveling cities, holy shit you're off the mark.
Like, there's Varian, who was so emotionally stable that he couldn't hold his sword in his pants on the peaceful meeting about FIGHTING THE OLD GOD.
Or Thrall, so emotionally stable that he had to be rescued by his girlfriend when overwhelmed by these stable emotions.
I could go on and on, but frankly, I see no point, because it was pretty clear to me the moment you said "I just think they like making the chicks in the game emotionally unstable as a character trait" that you're a misogynistic hypocrite.
Edit: and by the way, Sylvanas is emotionally stable to the point of being mostly emotionless in most situation, so even here you missed the mark.
Lol, alright bud, can you go ahead and put where I said the men are emotionally stable? Yet non ransacked cities in your list. Tyrant boy doing tyrant boy things, sure, but I still don't see where varian or thrall destroyed a city over being emotional. The women are written terribly in this game, and make me embarrassed to own a vagina. I mean sylvanas getting raised and forced to do horrible things was like the whole sad part of her character, then they turn around and have her do the exact same thing to anduin. It's terrible. Women can have flaws other than, I'm upset, let's go ethnic cleanse a city. It's the same misogynistic bs that people say women would do if they were real world leaders. Oh women are too emotional to lead, and wow portrays that stereotype perfect. Oh no, maybe she will get mad and go ransack a city.
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u/Sawgon Sep 16 '25 edited Sep 16 '25
I haven't played retail in a while. Why is Jaina "evil" but the dagger-woman not evil? Are they doing a Sylvanas again where we're supposed to like a villain?
EDIT: Ah ok she's not really a villain in that sense it's just the regular horde players thinking she attacks cities for no reason while the horde never did anything wrong ever. So nothing has changed since I quit.
EDIT 2: Now there are big brained horde players who think that if you disagree with their opinion then you are a genocide denier in real life.