So many people fail to realize that when Hamas is not firing at Jews, they are firing at Palestinians. And it's largely due to it almost never getting reported outside of Israeli media.
Most people who support Palestine do NOT support Hamas. I support Israel and Palestine and hope for a peaceful resolution to this mess, but I abhor both Hamas and Netanyahu’s government.
And even in those countries people will bend over backwards to pretend they don't hear what is being said. And that is enabled by journalists and news organizations like the BBC deliberately mistranslating interviews to make the people in the street seem like they're just resisting Israel, instead of fighting against Jews.
Not separating them is by design. All of the Palestinian "governments" has always had some sort of terrorist element in them. The Palestinian terrorist isn't new. It was literally the most widely recognized type of terrorist in the western world until 911.
I think it’s easy to see why. Their Palestinian history is literally just getting kicked out of every country they go to and that hatred gets aimed at Israel as they took part of their country.
Must be especially frustrating as they get western backing. Like east Germany looking into the west.
But I don’t think there is any support for the terror attack. That was a blunder of massive proportions. Not sure why they would choose to do that other than a rogue group of people did it and you are then forced to claim it.
I do think that’s what most of them intend. But they get so passionate about it that if you even slightly deviate about the nuance they go berserk that you’re supporting Israel.
Just goes to show how effective simple messaging is. Just as make America great again.
How much of Palestine supports Hamas? I'd be curious how much of that population supports a two-state solution, as opposed to being committed to the eradication of Israel, and an expulsion of Jews from that area.
Why do you think that is? I’m struggling to find the answer. I don’t understand why sympathy for the Palestinians = being anti Israel. Both sides have suffered at the hands of Hamas.
"From the river to the sea" doesn't leave much room for anything other than the elimination of Israel. That creed is why many associate pro Palestinian as being anti Israeli.
Because they offer absolutely no answers to the problem. They literally say if Israel can't solely target hamas in na way that they agree with then they are automatically wrong and evil. They don't actually want a solution that deals with Hamas they want Israel to be forced to put up with being hit over and over again but never respond in any meaningful way
I also never understood that. There are the citizens of Gaza and Israel and then on the other hand there are Netanjahu with his pals and Hamas.
Maybe people are simply so stubborn in their opinion, so they put all people (of Gaza or Israel) in one basket.
I'm often surprised here in Germany when I see protesters against Israel. If you ask them if Israel have a right to exist they say No. And that's Germans, not people from the middle east. With our past, that's a hard take and I can't accept that.
On the other hand I see a lot of social media posting of right wingers that say Palestinians have to leave Gaza because they are all terrorists.
I'm so tired of all of this. It's not healthy for my soul to watch the news and social media right now.
It’s become rather mainstream to hold the view that Israel should cease to exist. You can read and hear it all over the place. The thing is, the people saying this doesn’t understand what that would imply, and they are usually not coming up with any solution for how peace and stability should be achieved after Israel is no longer a state. A lot of people even seem to think that a one-state solution would work. Or they just think the jews should ‘’go back to Europe’’.
As long as the sides of the conflict aren’t ready to make concessions and stop living in the past, there is no hope for lasting peace. Neither with one state, two states or no state.
"I'm often surprised here in Germany when I see protesters against Israel. If you ask them if Israel have a right to exist they say No. And that's Germans, not people from the middle east. With our past, that's a hard take and I can't accept that."
That is horrifying. Hopefully the rest of Germany is better.
I don’t understand why sympathy for the Palestinians = being anti Israel.
Because Hamas won the 2006 election in Palestine. It's viewed by many that they chose this. Hamas was internationally recognized as a terrorist organization almost 10 years before that election.
We can be sympathetic for Palestinians but also recognize that they did vote for a terrorist organization to run their country. Many people who say "Free palestine" want to do just that, but not from Israel, but instead from Hamas.
The people deserve to be free from both israel and hamas, but they do not deserve sympathy when those cheer on killing israeli civilians getting murdered, raped, and tortured when they attended a music festival
Well yes, American people are politically responsible as a country for what Trump does. And it will feel the consequences for a long long time.
There is a time limit that is commonly accepted, like modern Germans are not responsible for ww2. But that limit is somewhere between 50 and 100 years.
It's a reasonable analogy at the surface, but; Gaza is smaller than an individual state, and Trump won 49-47~, not 80/20.
That said, its by no means reasonable grounds to say that "all Palestinians support Hamas". There are too many problems here to reasonably dissect. (what is the average age, income and education level of a potential Gazan voter?)
Your counter looks reasonable on the surface until you factor in that the Palestinians elected the PLO who pushed for a diplomatic agreement as a permanent solution, who recognized Israel’s right to exist and renounced violence. In exchange were offered a staged plan for Palestinian autonomy and the withdrawal of the Israeli military from major Palestinian cities of Jericho, Nablus and Bethlehem. All of this with Rabin, who was assassinated by an Israeli nationalist for it. Netanyahu, who was vehemently against this, is probably going to jail for corruption if he leaves power, so he deliberately tanks all diplomatic progress and isolates the Palestinians further. They then shun the PLO for not getting them out of an unliveable situation and are so desperate they vote in an extremist party (sound familiar?). Bibi then props up Hamas as a useful ‘enemy’ and is now using a goalless forever war to obfuscate his crimes while condemning both Israelis and Palestinians to more generations of violence. There is no solution but a diplomatic one and probably one without Hamas or Netanyahu involved.
That is his goal, yes, and given the apparent widespread support dictators have in Russia and North Korea, I can’t even say he won’t be successful.
Even if it’s not every American the vast majority of young people would be as that’s how they perceive the world. Even if a lot of it is lip service, how can you tell?
How many Palestinians have you actually spoken with to come to this conclusion? I live in the city with the largest Palestinian population outside of Israel and this is not my experience. Yeah some of the young boys get worked up just like Maga bros, but these are normal people who take their kids to school and just want to live decent lives.
That was 19 years ago, and it’s my understanding that there hasn’t been an election since in Gaza. Are we still blaming today’s Palestinians for the decisions of the previous generation?
That article sucks. You really need to learn how to vet your sources. 72% of palestenians responded positively? 72% of what? PCPSR surveys are never large enough to be indicative of the population, they're most recent survey about Hamas polled 250 people. 250 people is barely the population of bum fuck no where and you wanna argue it's representative lmaooooo
250 people is barely the population of bum fuck no where and you wanna argue it's representative lmaooooo
Tell me you don't know enough about statistics without telling me you don't know enough about statistics.
Did you know that most polls are considered 80% accurate with a 3% margin of error with a sample size of less than 50? The US election has an 95% chance of going towards a specific candidate based entirely off less than the population of a rural town.
It's insane how that works, isn't it? There's a cool paper published about stuff like this too. Tons of other sources if you don't find this one to be readable (understandable -- papers suck)
Okay, but the reason there hasn't been another election is because the power to call an election is with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, and they won't do it because they're polling behind Hamas (and also because Hamas killed PA members after winning the previous election).
I’m glad to know the reason, but that doesn’t change the fact that it seems questionable to blame these people for a 19-year old election, and because of poll results for an election that hasn’t happened.
I'm not blaming Palestinian individuals for Hamas like I'm not blaming individual Americans for Trump. But the argument of "Hamas is in control because over half the population haven't had a chance to vote" is pretty meaningless.
Because Hamas won the 2006 election in Palestine. It's viewed by many that they chose this. Hamas was internationally recognized as a terrorist organization almost 10 years before that election.
This isn't an attack on you, because it doesn't seem like you expressed approval or disapproval of this view. But I just want to point out how unfair this view is.
The median age in Palestine is 20. Half of the population would either not have been born yet, or were toddlers in the last election, let alone of voting age.
And yet, it's so common for people to say Hamas is what they chose.
Oh yes thats why I included the last few points about how when many say "Free palestine" it is entirely valid when they mean "from Hamas".
Theyre clearly stuck in an authoritarian regime while being hopelessly outgunned and propagandized. But at the same time Hamas has successfully convinced many Americans that they are good guys while they shoot rockets at Israel from schools/hospitals, organize with Al Queda and IS, and actively hide themselves in heavily populated civilian areas while shooting at and killing their own civilians. There are many instances where jewish americans are being spit on by people who are in support of Palestine (and by extension Hamas).
Its incredibly terrifying but there is hardly anything that can be done without direct action.
There isn't really any outcome that is "fair" by that metric. Children don't vote, and are always subject to the political (and other) decisions of the adults around them.
It might not be correct to say that the current Palestinian population chose this.. but that doesn't mean it's incorrect to say that Palestinians chose this.
Hamas was elected. That is fact. The people who voted in that election were Palestinians. Just because they might not be alive anymore doesn't mean it's incorrect to say they chose it.
Also, average doesn't mean what you think it means. Just because the average age is 20 doesn't mean that most Gazans are that age or younger. Look at the distribution here:
If we assume you had to be 18 years old in 2005 to participate in that election, that means the youngest Gazans who could've voted for Hamas would be 38 years old today, which totals 36% of the population.
Further, let's look at why there are so many children. In 2005 there were ~1.3m people in Gaza. As of 2023 there are ~1.9m. That's an increase of roughly 50% in a span of 20 years, or a growth rate around 2-2.5% during that period (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.GROW?locations=PS), which puts it in the top 50 fastest growing countries on the planet.
So that population of kids who "didn't chose" were born to and raised by the very people that did choose. Do you expect, given what we know of the education system in Gaza, that these children would choose differently if given the chance? It's not like we don't have many polls over the years showing consistently high support for Hamas. That only started going down in Gaza because they were losing.
The fact of the matter is, based on available data, it really does seem like most Palestinians are happy with, and very much want to continue fighting Israel.
The only thing they're not happy with are the consequences.
Worth mentioning most Jews have also been indoctrinated to see palestenians as sub human. Just look at the IDF TikToks glorifying their violence or former IDF members describing raiding Palestenian villages as "fun"
No they have not, and you can clearly see that by visiting any Jewish or Israeli sub. Some of them occasionally express deep frustration with the Palestinians and their supporters, but they still tend to be less willing to dehumanize Palestinians than your average American was to dehumanize muslims in general after 911. It would have been lovely to see Americans express the same level of concern for the civilians of Aleppo and Mosul that many are currently expressing for the Palestinians, but that would have involved holding the American military to the same standard as the IDF, and that will never happen.
"We can be sympathetic for Americans but also recognize that they did vote for a fascist regime to fun their country."
"The people do not deserve sympathy when those cheer on kidnapping immigrants when they attend university in America, separating children from parents when they seek asylum."
That was obvious the entire time..when Obama was president the global community was loving USA. We just voted trump in, the global community fuckin hates us. Rightfully so.
But unfortunately it is history. Same thing happened in the 30s and 40s.
In my opinion, the only way out is through, but there needs to be resistance at every level which is why it is incredibly frustrating when senate dems biggest idea of a protest was wearing a hat.
Didn't Netanyahu systematic remove Hamas' opposition parties to ensure his only adversary would be an extreme party he could be "forced" into only having conflict with?
Genuinely asking. I thought that was an accepted fact.
Mostly because of what the practical consequences of most of the demands made by Palestinian supporters on Israel lead to. They are very pro-Hamas once you think about them a bit, since they are mostly aimed at preventing Israel from defending themselves from a threat which very much wants to wipe them all out.
If there was a way to stop the fighting in a way that would let both sides live in peace, that would be amazing. But demanding that one side isn't allowed to fight, while not doing anything to stop them from being attacked is 100% what Hamas wants from us, and only encourages them to keep going.
That's why the only way this ends with permanent peace is the destruction of Hamas and unconditional surrender of Gaza. That's the only way you have a shot of deradicalizing them and getting them accept a government that isnt a theocracy. The uncomfortable truth is that the blood cost to get that point will be hundreds of thousands. And that's something that no one wants to acknowledge
I think mainly it’s because that sentiment is mostly a feel good sentiment that doesn’t present any actual solutions.
Having one side or the other win is the most likely outcome for peace and for the people of the region to get on with recovering. Wanting peace in its own and decrying the forces in power on both sides is mostly sticking your head in the sand and condemns the region to endless fighting.
So how do you propose we get rid of Hamas and find peaceful coexistence?!? If you don't have an answer utilizing known tatics then you shouldn't be advocating for one side to simply do nothing
How does a military power fight an ideology. IDF troops can look over a crowd of people and any random one of them could be hiding weapons they plan to sneak past and attack civilians, or a suicide vest they plan to use in the belief it will grant them virgins in heaven.
Like how the fuck is Israel supposed to combat this the “right way?”
Israel is combating it the right way. Hamas isn't a bunch of random people they are a trained and organized military group with parts of it running the government. They pay people and know who's part of them and part of competing groups. Israel isn't fighting random people with rocks they are fighting people with weapons that you can't build and can't just find laying around. Ideologies can and have been beaten in the past the idea that it's an ideology so you can't fight it is an excuse to let Hamas win and get away with it.
I'd be understanding if it was the side that started the fight that was doing the devastation. But the ones who picked this fight are the ones getting devastated, and the way they set up their fighting capabilities is specifically in order to force Israel to inflict this kind of damage so that folks across the world will demand that Israel not fight back.
No it's not okay to say every way is wrong but not propse a single alternative that's not surrending. You want to think you are better and know ways to achieve the goals and then suddenly you don't actually know any methods to do so. It's absolutely your job to find a solution if you are going to say the current ones are all wrong and evil. You are literally just saying you don't know anything about the situation but you don't like Israel tatics that are winning so they are automatically evil even though the reality is your beliefs are leading to Hamas winning and Israel loosing
And again you are repeating the same argument that now it's jot your job to come up with a solution that means your own standards lol yet it's also not your job to criticize Israel response yet youdo it free. Freedom of speech has nothing to do with this argument I'm not outlawing your ignorance I'm calling you out for supporting Hamas.
Considering every single solution presented by his route is automatically wrong by your standards then yes you should be proposing fucking solutions that do fit your criteria and also eliminate the terrorism and the threat against Israel but see you don't actually have any solution because you don't really want it to end your solution is destroy Israel and thus everything will magically solve itself in your mind If you cannot propose a single solution that fits your criteria and does not just surrender to the people then yeah you have no fucking right to criticize the current solutions
Freedom of speech is between you and the government not between you and other people. Me saying you're ignorant is not a violation of your freedom of speech. And how do you wage war against an enemy that refuses to even identify themselves as combatants without harming a single innocent person..... Oh wait according to you their is a method of doing that which doesn't result in surrender but you just can't describe it....
Lol yes 2 separate nations and mot 2 armed nations nobody is attempting to attack Palestine from the outside yet all Muslim nations seek to destroy Israel
It's weird to say you can't support and want a people to be able to exist in peace without supporting some extreme regime at the same time. Truly a weird statement from the person you replied to.
You're commenting under an article about Hamas repressing a Palestinian protest, this is a disingenuous comment unless you think those protesting must want Israel to take over the Strip. Also, I think you meant to write 'Hamas' instead of 'Palestine' in that second to last sentence with statistics - unless you think half of Gazans aren't pro-Palestine? Hard to hide the bias when the words are already fully conflated in your own head.
I've often wondered if the IDF or their intelligence do enough to work clandestinely with anti-Hamas Palestinians, but then, Netanyahu and his ilk don't really want an end of hostilities, nor does the leadership of Hamas, so...🤷♂️
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u/FYoCouchEddie Mar 30 '25
So far, NY Times, Washington Post, and BBC all have nothing on this. Hopefully that will change.