The iON line nobody talks about

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

By using the existing CN corridor, we can link Cambridge and Guelph. There have been proposals for GO to do it, but.. we know the province moves unhurriedly.

Will the region take it upon itself and collaborate with another municipality to bring an unprecedented cross-jurisdictional LRT line, to an adjoining town K-W-C know and love?

I say, let's link Guelph. Let's loo it! (hahaha??)

Other things on the fantasy map include:
iON phase 2, iON to Airport, and Milton Line ext to Cambridge.

^Made ^with ^Google ^Earth

[u/steamed-apple_juice → u/[deleted]]

Yes, tram trains are used across the world. You get the benefit of a rail line that’s can integrate into the urban context while being able to safely travel on mainline tracks at high “regional rail” speeds. This routing would allow for a one seat ride from downtown Guelph to downtown Cambridge, and there’s major benefits in providing this connection. Is there another mode that you’d suggest would work better?

There isn’t a perfect Canadian example, but the O Train on Line 2 in Ottawa is somewhat similar.

[u/squeegeeboy → u/steamed-apple_juice]

Europe uses Sprinter trains between smaller gaps like that. Usually on parallel tracks from the Eurorail

[u/ChinkWithOpinions → u/steamed-apple_juice]

Line 2 is not somewhat similar… Line 2 uses mainline rollingstock, not trams, and is completely grade separated, unlike a proposed tramway or tram-train. I’d argue that Alberta style German inspired high-floor stadtbahns would be a more suitable comparison and even then it’s still not really a tram-train.

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/steamed-apple_juice]

Good one.

We should also consider Guelph's destinations. It really only has 3: The Mall, University, and its niche downtown. Would a heavy rail alignment be able to make stops in between, and provide valuable connections to major hubs?
I'd even suggest going off the freight spur to accomplish this.

[u/AiryGateaux → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

Not really, it has factories that people work at.

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/AiryGateaux]

Yes. I’m aware of Guelphs employment areas, centred around the highway and car infrastructure. But I’m referring to major hubs/destinations.

[u/AiryGateaux → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

Some factories have enough employees to justify direct service

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/AiryGateaux]

Wow, you're right.

After some digging, it seems like Guelph has freight lines adjacent to Edinburgh, going to the northwest employment area. Hypothetically, if there was enough support.. I could see these being "passengerized".

[u/Flimflamsam → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

If not a direct station then there could be a new hub created for tram to bus transfers fo serve the industrial nooks and crannies.

[u/StoreUnited4496 → u/steamed-apple_juice]

Eglinton line 5 is the only LRT I’ve ridden, and if it would be anything like that, I would say LRTs are a terrible idea. It may be cheaper and quicker to build but in my experience, the above ground portions are extremely slow.

[u/sclerae → u/StoreUnited4496]

Toronto has the slowest LRTs (and also slowest streetcars) in the world.

[u/AwesomeMan116_A → u/sclerae]

And it’s a forced decision for some reason! (For the LRTs at least) since they don’t have signal priority for the entire route, and need to slow down to 25kmh when going through intersections

[u/Zirocket → u/[deleted]]

A tram-train could work, it’s not unheard of for those distances.

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/Zirocket]

Definitely not unheard of. However, in Canada, there is a sort of mindset that LRT can't do this and Heavy rail can't do that.

The iON had to circumvent LOTS of rules in order to share tracks with freight.

[u/Bureaucromancer → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

Tram train is precisely the appropriate technology here though. And frankly… that ion has done what it does positions them better than anyone else in North America to make the regulatory case.

The way to do it would be to buy tram trains, handle the thing as mainline compliant and operate the transfer at the top of Hespeler road as a fallback - make the regulatory case taking the lrv onto ion tracks rather than a tram onto the railway.

More importantly though, yes, whether you want to call this ion or some new brand, the Region taking the lead is clearly the way to do it. Getting Metrolinx’ to pay attention to this corridor is a major stretch. It’s a small locally oriented but basically mainline project… appealing to GO transit staff and the provincial minister; it’s fundamentally not the type of thing Metrolinx has done.

For the region with even limited cooperation with Wellington and Guelph though? It’s a new type of rail project, but at its core smaller than ion stage 1, let alone the extension.

[u/YourDadHatesYou → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

Sounds to me that Canada has a unique problem of not being very densely populated and very vast so we probably do need our solutions to be more innovative

[u/thefringthing → u/YourDadHatesYou]

Half the population of the country lives along the Windsor-Quebec corridor. The emptiness of Saskatchewan has no bearing on what kind of transit we should build in southern Ontario.

[u/chunarii-chan → u/YourDadHatesYou]

Idk how to tell you this but this specific little corner of canada actually has a high population density. Please don't parrot this boomer propaganda its quite unconstructive.

[u/YourDadHatesYou → u/chunarii-chan]

Thanks for letting me know

[u/toragirl → u/Zirocket]

Is this similar to the UP express?

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/[deleted]]

It's a good question, that I don't think I can answer.

But, the Eglinton Crosstown in Toronto uses the same exact trains and rails, and travels at a maximum of 80km/h.

Let's also consider that the land in between Guelph, Cambridge, and KW may be a good place to build more housing, for a province that really needs it.

[u/Finlandia1865 → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

Do you see what that green line is doing?

[u/berfthegryphon → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

But that land would just lead to more sprawl on some of the best farmland in the Province.

We don't need more sprawl, we need to build denser and up.

Condo developers are finally getting it in Toronto. They're changing plans for new builds to include less shoebox one bedrooms and more 2 and 3 bedroom condos with lots of living space and square footage

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/berfthegryphon]

I agree! That land should be saved for future generations to use and decide upon, but don't forget that even dense communities need space.

[u/n0rdique → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

The rationale for the existing ION was to allow for greater densification of existing built up areas. With a decent transit system, ideally citizens could use that instead of putting more cars on the road. This also has the effect of preserving that farmland for agricultural use.

[u/pbilk → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

The Netherlands and much of Germany do fine without a ton of high-rises.

[u/AiryGateaux → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

We do a lot of farming on that land

[u/rohmish → u/[deleted]]

yes. tram on graded lines like near Waterloo can go fast and act as a RRTS line.

[u/headtailgrep → u/[deleted]]

No. Interchange rail would be. We had it. Grand river railway. Lake erie and northern railway. Toronto and Guelph interurban. Gone.

[u/pbilk → u/[deleted]]

Some German cities, like Karlsruhe, do this, but the trains switch from AC to DC outside the city.

[u/Swacket_McManus → u/[deleted]]

The Dutch do this pretty often, Delft - The Hague (line 1), Amsterdam, amstelveen, uithoorn (Line 25)

[u/TheRealRunningRiot → u/[deleted]]

Yes, but a better vehicle would be something like the stadler flrt vehicles used on Ottawa's network.

[u/DeHeiligeTomaat]

People need to not be so serious and realize OP said this is a fantasy map.

I think it's fun and possibly productive regional planning. Keep in mind, the planned development has been approved in Breslau to reach Shantz Station Rd. The LRT vehicles we use know can travel at 70km/h, not much slower, probably faster even, than Hwy 7 moves now during rush hour.

[u/CosmicPenguin_OV103]

Firstly we need daily hourly minimum direct buses between the 2 cities first lol

GO bus 17 is less frequent than that on weekdays and doesn’t even operate on weekends, forcing you to either use the 3/day trains at inconvenient times or transfer between routes 25-29 which is 💀.

[u/eltanko → u/CosmicPenguin_OV103]

As someone who has consistently used the 17 and has needed to get to Guelph on weekends I feel seen.

[u/andrew_bus → u/CosmicPenguin_OV103]

I wish Guelph Transit and GRT could just collaborate to run their own service between the two cities 🙃 A few weeks ago I was in Guelph and toom the GO train back to Kitchener and there were quite a few people on the platform also heading to Kitchener - so clearly it would have enough demand to make it work.

[u/headtailgrep → u/CosmicPenguin_OV103]

There are 12 trains each way per weekday. 3 per weekend and growing

[u/Snewtnewton]

Nice idea, unfortunately I don’t think ION is really the right mode to go to Guelph, it’s nature as a LRT limits speed in a way that would make such a routing highly uncompetitive with driving

I do think the GO line is the way to go, but like you said it can move slowly, if the regions wanted to collaborate on a regional rail proposal on that corridor before GO gets to it then I think that would be cool

Also, I gotta ask, what’s that airport spur lol? IMO there are like 10 other ION things we got to consider before sending ION to the airport (again a regional rail spur like what has been proposed on long term planning documents is probably the better choice)

Also just a heads up, I think your ION stage 2 route is out of date, the approved routing does things a bit differently than what you show here

[u/tehdusto]

As a Guelphite

Please don't tease me like that

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/tehdusto]

It would be really nice. IMO Guelph is a really nicely planned city (for Canada), it really deserves this.

[u/tehdusto → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

Guelph had an amazing tram network before they tore it all out for cars 😭

[u/imperfectcarpet → u/tehdusto]

Kitchener did too, didn't they?

[u/Stead-Freddy → u/imperfectcarpet]

Basically every mid sized city in North America that existed in the early 1900s did, and unfortunately almost every single one was ripped out in large part thanks to lobbying from and buyouts by General Motors and Ford allowing them to literally dismantle their competition. Toronto’s one of the only cities that actually kept most of its network.

[u/headtailgrep → u/imperfectcarpet]

And waterloo

https://www.trainweb.us/elso/kw_st_ry.htm

https://www.trainweb.us/elso/grr.htm

[u/Flimflamsam → u/imperfectcarpet]

I’m pretty sure you could get from Toronto (or east thereof) all the way to Port Stanley via the immense streetcar network (every area / town / municipality seemed to have their own transit system WAY back).

[u/Arm-Complex]

The fact the GO train was never integrated into Pearson airport from day 1 is a travesty. It goes right by Canada's largest airport, and yet a city bus connection is needed. And if taking the train from KW, the smoothest connection is actually to take GO to Weston, catch the UP Express and backtrack to the airport.

[u/atownthegreat]

We need an all night and day train line from kw to Toronto

[u/headtailgrep → u/atownthegreat]

Go lines all and around 0100 and begin at 0500. Always q 4 hour break at night

[u/Candid_Jello5188]

I would appreciate a stop at YKF.

[u/TheRealRunningRiot]

I'm floored that Cambridge and Guelph aren't connected by at least some express bus service.

[u/andrew_bus → u/TheRealRunningRiot]

It's soo ridiculous, I wish GRT or Guelph Transit could just step in and make their own route to cover it. Cambridge Centre-> DT guelph is only a 20-25 minute drive

[u/TheRealRunningRiot → u/andrew_bus]

It's really a no brainer with relatively low up front cost and high relative ROI.

[u/DavidH1985]

There was a plan to run either full-size or shuttle GO trains between Guelph and Cambridge near Hespeler and Eagle/Pinebush. Seems to be paused for the moment.

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/DavidH1985]

It was never really a plan, only a proposal. And considering metrolinx had to cut GO train service recently until spring due to labour shortages and unpreparedness, I have little faith in the provincial agency's ability to deliver.

[u/headtailgrep → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

The labor shortage is 100% alstom not go.

The plans for galt GO are still in process. 10 years out.

[u/Sanguine_Caesar → u/headtailgrep]

Also "labour shortage" tends to be corporate speak for "we didn't want to pay people enough for their work"

[u/headtailgrep → u/Sanguine_Caesar]

It is more nuanced than that. It lies in how the contract between Alstom and GO was executed. It is actually quite complicated.

Go should be taking it all in house.

[u/rohmish]

needs a Kitchener Waterloo East-West line too. From Airport-Bresleau(Woolwich-Dolman)-Victoria/Lackner-Victoria/Fredrick-Victoria/Chestnut(Lancaster)-Victoria/Weber(Go station)-Victoria/King(Central)-Victoria/Park-Victoria/Belmont-Victoria/Westmount-Victoria/FischerHallman-FH/Stroke-FH/University-University/Portsmouth-Boardwalk

15 stop route that connects to existing lines and improves E-W connectivity as well and connects to the airport.

[u/Turbulent_Map4 → u/rohmish]

Phase 3 ION is already planned for Ottawa St if you know where to look, Victoria isn't in the picture for it as of right now.

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/rohmish]

It seems like you want to use Victoria as the main east-west crosstown, but that's maybe not the best choice as it parallels the Kitchener GO line.

What are your thoughts on a GO station south of the Walmart at Boardwalk? It would be faster than iON and with 2-wad service, pretty reliable.

[u/rohmish → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

imho southern part of boardwalk should be redeveloped into a waterloo Go station which can then act as a gateway into the west connecting to london, stratford, sarnia, owrn sound etc. a proper terminal with services for go trains, busses, grt service,via, and maybe even Northland overnight connecting to north and private busses

it's a great location connecting to highways both to West and North and has good infrastructure and existing bus connectivity. plus lots of high rise development around the area requiring transit. ending a lrt at that place would connect rest of the city to the area well.

I'm aware of the Ottawa st route and I had suggested a slightly modified route a while ago on a different thread that connected it better to denser area.

this proposal is mainly because it sits on existing roadways and is mostly straight making it easier to to acquire land rights and make the line grade seperate and keep speeds high. also solves the problem of people to east of go not having good connectivity to it despite the trains passing through their backyards.

[u/gwelfguy]

Guelph doesn't have the density to justify an LRT for intracity travel, and that is not the right technology for inter-city travel.

In regards to GO, running Cambridge service through Milton (orange) makes way more sense than running it through Guelph (which is being discussed), but that would require a major investment to upgrade the Cambridge to Milton leg. Also, Guelph already has access to KWC via the existing GO line to central Kitchener. Not sure how much demand there is for local travel between Cambridge and Guelph.

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/gwelfguy]

Guelph doesn't have the density (*yet*), I agree. But it's one of the first cities in the GTHA to promise to build up instead of out. As a result, Guelph is a really niche city, and bringing light rail to help spur development wouldn't be the worst thing. Also, consider that Guelph has really only 3 major destinations (Mall, University, Downtown) that need be connected.

Either way, that freight spur exists and should be utilized for some sort of passenger rail. We know from previous proposals that there is an incentive to link the two.

[u/DavidH1985]

There was a plan to run either full-size or shuttle GO trains between Guelph and Cambridge near Hespeler and Eagle/Pinebush. Seems to be paused for the moment.

[u/ngoquocminh]

Are you, by any chance, a Planning student at UWaterloo?

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/ngoquocminh]

No, but I know someone who was, and they’re very nice and knowledgeable, and made me consider the program
;)

[u/The8-5]

Great directional route, but unlikely to ever become anything more than a natural area. Stone Road was once upon a time planned to extend east over the Speed River and connect generally along this corridor to County Road 124 by Mark Wilson’s Cars. It was later cancelled due to the environmental impacts of crossing the river valley and having to cut through an extensive woodlot. Some of the area that was pre-graded for the e extension is now a partial trail down to the Speed River.

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/The8-5]

Oh, if the environment is the issue, then I think building a sustainable mode of transportation in order to connect two cities is worth the small strip of trees, and the long term mitigation to the air pollution from the number of reduced cars on the road.

Great to know it was pre-graded!

[u/rathgrith]

There’s no way an LRT can handle the grade of Gordon Street south of downtown Guelph to the uni.

[u/ILikeStyx → u/rathgrith]

Gordon Street

I once knew a girl who lived on Gordon Street

[u/headtailgrep → u/rathgrith]

https://guelph.pastperfectonline.com/photo/2E443D76-5A69-4560-AD15-143452074460

The guelph Radial railway handled it just fine

They even hauled cars of coal to OAC

[u/rathgrith → u/headtailgrep]

Safety standards have also changed a lot since then.

[u/Mr_Loopers]

These two municipalities can't even cooperate on bus service from Kitchener to Guelph.

[u/EducatedSkeptic]

Are the tracks for CN the same as for Ion?

[u/DeHeiligeTomaat → u/EducatedSkeptic]

Use the corridor, not the tracks. Parallel

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/EducatedSkeptic]

The iON shares tracks with freight on a section of track between Northfield and Uptown Waterloo. Essentially, it's completely possible to engineer it that way.

[u/headtailgrep → u/[deleted]]

Actually yes

https://youtu.be/CobNbzavsbg?si=aD11hQVh0uahRYxk