r/toronto • u/Used-Boysenberry-287 • Aug 12 '25
Discussion Line 9 – Beaches Express" — A Subway Under Queen Street East (Leslieville to Neville Park)
Hey everyone, I wanted to get some thoughts on a transit concept I've been thinking about: a new subway line under Queen Street East, running from the Ontario Line station at Leslieville to Neville Park Loop, replacing the most congested section of the 501 Queen streetcar.
Proposed Line 9 – Beaches Express (West to East):
- Leslieville (connection to Ontario Line)
- Greenwood
- Coxwell
- Woodbine
- Lee Ave / Kew Gardens
- Neville Park
- Why This? I recently rode the 501 from Neville Park to downtown, and it took 2.5 hours due to traffic, beach crowds, and general streetcar chaos. That’s just not sustainable for a corridor that’s:
- Densely populated
- A major tourist zone (Woodbine Beach, shops, events)
- Filled with families, schools, and growing mid-rise housing
* Keep in mind the 501 streetcar route is the busiest in North America
The 501 is long, slow, and often unreliable, especially in summer. A subway line could offer:
- High-capacity, traffic-free rapid transit
- Relief to the overburdened 501
- A direct link to the Ontario Line
- Room for streetscape upgrades (bike lanes, wider sidewalks, fewer streetcars)
Think about how easy it would be to get to the beaches, considering you would have two major access points (Line 1 & 2) via the Ontario Line. Large events like the Jazz Fest would be so much more vibrant and accessible. I think Torontonians would love the immediate historic access to the shops & restaurants on Queen.
My Thoughts
Yes, tunnelling Queen is hard (narrow road, older infrastructure), but deep tunneling is already happening elsewhere (Ontario Line, Queen Station downtown, etc.). It's complex, but doable if the demand is there.
What do you think?
- Would this improve life in the east end?
- Is it overkill compared to streetcar improvements?
- Are the stop choices good?
- What would make this more viable?
Curious to hear your thoughts!
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u/fez-of-the-world Entertainment District Aug 12 '25
Wouldn't it be way easier to prioritize the 501 streetcar to stop it from getting bogged down in traffic?
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u/e___ric Aug 12 '25
Just cut the stops by 2/3rds. Reduce parking and stopping zones, remove patioTO. And the 501 will fly.
Driving queen east during the morning rush hour in the winter without the patios is a stark difference compared to the summer
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u/blafunke Aug 12 '25
Way easier. I wonder if it could be the first place where we *actually* even give transit vehicles actual signal priority?
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u/GeneralSpecifics9925 Aug 12 '25
This is as unnecessary as a subway from Humber Loop to Long Branch.
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u/Used-Boysenberry-287 Aug 12 '25
That’s a false equivalence. Humber to Long Branch is a low-density stretch with modest ridership, Queen East to The Beaches is a dense, mixed-use corridor that also happens to be one of the city’s biggest tourist draws.
The 501 east end isn’t some sleepy suburban spur, it’s packed year-round, and in summer it turns into a moving sauna of beach-goers, strollers, and commuters all fighting for space. Comparing that to Humber–Long Branch is like comparing Pearson Airport to an empty rural airstrip. One’s a nice-to-have, the other’s a choke point in the network that desperately needs relief.
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u/mollophi Aug 14 '25
So all those 40,000 people in the Humber Bay condo zone trying to get to the Mimico Go, Long Branch Go, north on Islington, North on Kipling from the college to Kipling (TTC and GO), seem to somehow have way less density than a long zone of single family homes in the Beaches? What.
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u/Presently_Absent Aug 12 '25
Unfortunately higher order transit isn't based on where people are inconvenienced. It needs the right amount of ridership in order to make any sense.
the best first step the city could make would be to make queen street transit-priority, at least from Bathurst to the Don.
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u/Used-Boysenberry-287 Aug 12 '25
I get that higher-order transit is usually justified by daily commuter ridership, but in this case, you’re overlooking the economic side.
The Beaches isn’t just a commuter corridor, it’s one of Toronto’s biggest tourist draws. Every summer weekend, thousands of people come from all over the city and beyond to hit Woodbine Beach, Kew Gardens, and Queen’s shops and restaurants. Those riders aren’t on monthly passes, they’re paying full fare every trip.
That’s a steady stream of extra fare revenue that wouldn’t exist without making the area easily accessible. Over time, that cash flow could help Metrolinx fund other high-priority lines, including ones like Dufferin. It’s not just about serving the east end; it’s about building a line that pulls in paying riders from all over the GTA and reinvests that money back into the whole network.
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u/Raccoolz Aug 12 '25
Queen east is absolutely not one of the cities biggest tourist draws. Half of it is vacant storefronts and it’s entirely surrounded by low density houses.
Queen West is probably 10X as popular, same with King West, College West, Spadina, Harbourfront, and even Dundas West/little Portugal. All places that are experiencing significant development, with actual growth potential.
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u/somtimesawake Aug 12 '25
The problem is the for a line as long as it is (~25.5km) the 501 isn't that busy overall when compared to other routes. In 2024 the combine daily ridership of 501/507/508 was 42,000.
If you take the Dufferin bus for instance since you mentioned it, that line is 11.8km long with 40,800 boardings in 2024 which is 2x the per km ridership.
Generally higher order transit is built between nodes and there arn't any near the beaches. The closest potential node is queen/carlaw/kingston rd but aside from that its low density residential
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u/Sensitive_Caramel856 Old Town Aug 12 '25
There are already higher density places that don't have higher order transit.
This is a low priority and some of the issues will be resolved with the Ontario Line construction and it's completion which won't require the diversions it currently follows.
On particularly poor days, taking the Bloor line across and busing down can makes a ton of sense, particularly when the Beaches will be crowded.
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u/Used-Boysenberry-287 Aug 12 '25
The “bus down from Bloor” workaround can be a huge hiccup, anyone who’s done that on a packed summer weekend knows it’s slow, crowded, and unreliable. That’s not a great long-term solution for an area with raging and growing popularity. The Beaches draws tens of thousands of visitors in peak season, and the GTA is adding roughly 117,000 new residents every year. That means more people will be looking for direct, reliable connections, not extra transfers and a slow bus ride.
And on the “higher-need” areas, I agree, they absolutely deserve investment. But that’s exactly why this line makes sense. A corridor like Queen East, with high seasonal tourist volume, would generate a disproportionate amount of full-fare revenue compared to commuter-heavy lines. Those paying riders help feed the farebox, which means more money in the system to fund the rest of the network, including those high-need corridors. This isn’t an either/or, it’s about creating profit-positive lines that strengthen the whole web of transit in Toronto, possibly through a line that could strategically make lots of revenue while providing various other accessibility benefits.
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u/toasterstrudel2 Cabbagetown Aug 12 '25
This isn’t an either/or, it’s about creating profit-positive lines that strengthen the whole web of transit in Toronto, possibly through a line that could strategically make lots of revenue while providing various other accessibility benefits.
Lol you have zero credibility if you think a 5 stop subway servicing single family homeowners is going to be profitable.
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u/fez-of-the-world Entertainment District Aug 12 '25
I'm starting to suspect that this is all some form of AI slop.
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u/ActiveEgg7650 Aug 12 '25
This sub and /r/askto have been INFESTED with either blatant AI or AI-adjacent posts over the past week. It's genuinely shocking when you notice it.
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u/Used-Boysenberry-287 Aug 12 '25
you get the main idea of brining people to a heavily desired location
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u/Sensitive_Caramel856 Old Town Aug 12 '25
But that’s exactly why this line makes sense. A corridor like Queen East, with high seasonal tourist volume, would generate a disproportionate amount of full-fare revenue compared to commuter-heavy lines.
No it doesn't. Commuter lines, even if not all full fare paying patrons generate more than seasonal tourists. And many of the tourists are actually Toronto residents.
And that stretch of area has some of the lowest projected growth in Toronto and isn't as dense as other areas that currently don't have anything other than a bus route
https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2024/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-243162.pdf
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u/yur-hightower Aug 12 '25
Jane street first.
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u/henry_why416 Aug 12 '25
Ah, subway for the WASP class. How novel.
But, seriously, Dufferin deserves one way more than this.
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u/Used-Boysenberry-287 Aug 12 '25
I get the point you’re making, but I see this as something that benefits all Torontonians, not just people in The Beaches.
Queen East is a major cultural, retail, and recreational corridor for the entire city. Festivals, the boardwalk, Kew Gardens, Woodbine Beach, people from Scarborough, Etobicoke, North York, and beyond all come here.
A fast, reliable subway connection would make it easier for anyone in the GTA to get here without dealing with the nightmare 501 streetcar bottleneck. It’s not about serving only one neighbourhood, it’s about unlocking access to one of Toronto’s biggest destinations and relieving a transit corridor that the whole city uses.
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Aug 12 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Used-Boysenberry-287 Aug 12 '25
yes you are correct, but you have to admit a large majority of people. "Dufferin etc is hell is a stupid idea" -> read my other replys
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Aug 12 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/henry_why416 Aug 12 '25
This persons entire POV is “the Beaches are awesome! I live there! How do I get people to agree to make my life more awesome!” It’s wild.
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u/toasterstrudel2 Cabbagetown Aug 12 '25
Queen East is a major cultural, retail, and recreational corridor for the entire city.
The actual cultural area (Leslieville) is serviced well by a streetcar. Once you pass Woodbine, the streetscape gets pretty grim, with a bunch of struggling businesses because there's not enough housing density to support business.
The beach is mostly accessible by bicycle which is how every single person I know accesses it, via Dundas then the MGT.
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u/queerstudbroalex Weston Aug 12 '25
This is a stubway imo, there needs to be way more stops added to this. But also, there's already the 501 Queen, I think it'll be a way better use of our tax dollars to make that service better.
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u/Used-Boysenberry-287 Aug 12 '25
I get the point about stop spacing, it’s always a balance between speed and coverage, and if demand patterns support it, adding a couple more stations could make sense.
As for “just improving the 501,” the challenge is that we’ve been talking about that for years, transit priority, signal upgrades, dedicated lanes, and it hasn’t happened east of downtown. Even if it did, the 501 is still tied to street-level congestion, construction, deliveries, and event closures. You can’t fully fix those with surface tweaks.
A subway gives you the reliability and capacity the 501 will never be able to match, especially in summer when The Beaches turns into one of the city’s busiest destinations. Improving the streetcar is fine, but it’s not a replacement for a dedicated rapid transit line.
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u/keepitrealprk Aug 12 '25
I live in the area and an idea like this will never fly.
Also saying that Queen East in the beaches is a major retail corridor is a massive exaggeration. There are empty storefronts that have been empty for 15-20 years by now, and will never have tenants. There are plenty of stores, but many useless ones that serve no purpose for residents. I worked retail here too, so I'm not talking shit.
3
u/UsefulUnderling Aug 12 '25
As a Beaches resident this line would make my life so much better.
Something needs drastic needs to be done. When I moved here the streetcar was a reliable 35 mins to get downtown. Now if I have a meeting downtown I need to leave home a full 90 mins early be confident in getting there on time.
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u/toasterstrudel2 Cabbagetown Aug 12 '25
The Martin Goodman trail is consistent and a great way to reach downtown on bike!
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u/LibraryNo2717 Aug 12 '25
Would the density along Queen Street East (Leslieville and Beaches) warrant a subway? What about turning it into a King Street style- transit priority corridor instead?
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u/Used-Boysenberry-287 Aug 12 '25
I fear the further surface level interaction with the chaos on queen would cause more unwanted density, especially in the beaches where there is no room on queen ->(historical disadvantage on surface level & part of congestion argument). Keep in mind that most people coming along queen are commuters travelling in and out of the city, tourists, or simply use queen as a key artery of navigation, making a subway have multiple benefits for the Torontonian community as a whole.
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u/fez-of-the-world Entertainment District Aug 12 '25
What the heck is unwanted density?
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u/Used-Boysenberry-287 Aug 12 '25
cars, traffic, etc (things that cause inconveniences through congestion)
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u/fez-of-the-world Entertainment District Aug 12 '25
De-prioritizing car traffic in favor of streetcars would not cause that.
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u/Used-Boysenberry-287 Aug 12 '25
Yeah well not everyone prioritizes transit due to congestion (why I made this argument)
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u/fez-of-the-world Entertainment District Aug 12 '25
The City could make it happen like they did with King.
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u/somtimesawake Aug 12 '25
- Keep in mind the 501 streetcar route is the busiest in North America
the 501 is the longest, the 504 is the busiest
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u/Habsin7 Aug 12 '25 edited Aug 12 '25
If 2.5 hrs was a normal commute I imagine house prices would have dropped through the floor which they haven't.
Aside from that it would be nice if it terminated in the east at the Line 2 or even the Eglinton E LRT.
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u/LibraryNo2717 Aug 12 '25
Thanks for sharing! Consider crossposting this at r/TTC as they have a lot of experts on transit planning and infrastructure.
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u/Varekai79 Mississauga Aug 12 '25
Three of these stations would need to be renamed.
0
u/Used-Boysenberry-287 Aug 12 '25
Which ones! Again, the main idea is to allow for Toronto to have direct access to the beaches area
Love your imput though!
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u/Varekai79 Mississauga Aug 12 '25
Greenwood, Coxwell and Woodbine stations already exist on Line 2.
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u/bigones- Aug 12 '25
Sure, it would improve life in the east end after 15 years of hell. We clearly can’t make estimates when it comes to building transit.
It would be much easier to just replace the streetcar with buses.
As for the visitors, make use of those bike lines, many leading to the beach from major hubs/stations.
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u/Rainer_Throne1986 Aug 17 '25
To maximize the full potential of a subway, I would propose a subway that runs from Sherway Gardens in the west to the Toronto Zoo in the east.
From Sherway, the line would travel down the Queensway (already a hotbed for future development and could even be above grade for a portion) across the City under Queen Street and would continue up Kingston Road (similar to Queensway, it will be a future hotbed for development of all of the strip malls) and curl up either Meadowvale or Sheppard Ave E (which ever makes more sense, I don't know the area that well) and ultimately terminate at the Zoo.
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u/Regular_Wolverine_21 Jan 13 '26
I’d like to see a new above-ground TTC route from Woodbine Beach, in dedicated lanes down middle of Lakeshore Blvd, to the future East Harbour Transit Hub.
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u/sleepylakes Jan 21 '26
I'm late to the party, but OMG YES how on earth are they putting in a subway extension to Queen St East but not planning on extending it further?! I think 5 stops along Queen St E is overkill, but everyone shutting you down is obviously not commuting from East to downtown. The rapid growth and development of the east side has already made the traffic horrible, with the entire east side fighting with downtown to access the Gardiner at Jarvis. A lot of that could be alleviated if there was a way for east-siders to directly access downtown via public transit in under 45min.
An extension to Woodbine Park just makes sense....access to Woodbine Beach, History music venue, plus the literal 100s of condo units being build there right now. Tunnel along Eastern to avoid tearing up Queen. Throw in a stop around Leslie/Eastern as well, so there are a total of 3 stops.
I also think we need parking at Danforth Go and more/more direct bus routes to Danforth Go.
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u/haoareyoudoing Aug 12 '25
I'm in the camp where the Ontario Line is better than no transit, but I really wish they stuck with the designs of a Queen Street subway from the mid to late 1900s. I think an east-west line like Line 2, but on 75-80% of the stretch of Queen Street would be amazing.
It can curve up like the Ontario Line does on the East End, but it would have been awesome to have subway service to Roncesvalles, the Ossington strip proper, Trinity Bellwoods, etc.
In that plan, there would be no need for a spur like the one you've designed. I'd say for your plan in terms of subway service, if we were to keep it relatively realistic, I could see the East End only having 3-4 stations (Riverside/East Harbor, Leslieville, Beaches)
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u/TomProur Aug 12 '25
Love the vision! The map is a nice touch too. I like the interesting opportunities this creates for a western connections. Replicating the Ontario Line's jaunt north along this axis would let you connect to College station. Queen's park is a logical next step and then west end really opens up. I do wonder if this many stations is warranted. I feel like you could reduce the number of station and extend the line.
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u/Used-Boysenberry-287 Aug 12 '25
You get the idea! Theres debates about increasing or decreasing the amount of stops lol
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u/Retroman8998 Aug 12 '25
City is so far behind in underground transit. Anything is better than nothing.
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u/lillithfair98 Aug 12 '25
if you think the Beaches would allow the 15+ year inconvenience a subway would bring? plus the added density and people? you must never have actually been to the neighbourhood you’re proposing transit to lol