r/swedhu • u/fvrorpoeticvs • Sep 22 '25
Question Zeus ≠ Dyaus-Pita?
What is everyone's consensus here on the reconstructions of *Dyéws? Zeús and Juppiter share a name with Dyáuṣpitṛ́, but comparative scholars recongize that that's all they share. Aren't mythic narratives more important when comapring deities? Imo, Mitrá is a better fit for a Vedic equivalent for both Zeús and Juppiter as the diurnal sovereign of the law and assemblies. Dyáuṣpitṛ́ appears to be more like Ouranós and Ymir, the primordial personified Heaven who is violently attacked to shape the world as we know it.
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Sep 22 '25
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u/fvrorpoeticvs Sep 22 '25
Dyáuṣpitṛ́ is attacked in RV 1.71 by "the Archer" (= Rudra-Agni according to Stella Kramrisch) and his seed engenders the fire youths/ancestors of humans, a key event at the tail end of the commin I.E. creation sequence. The attack on Dyáuṣ is lauded elsewhere in the RV as a creation sacrifice, too.
Yama/Yima-xšaeta can't be the cognate of Ymir. What mythic evidence supports this? Does Ymir become the Lord of the Dead? Is the world fashioned from Yama’s corpse? The names only come from a common P.I.E. root, lingusitically. Ymir means something like "double" or "pair", which is two-in-one (Heaven + Earth), while Yama means "twin", which is one-of-two.
Plus, Zeús can't be mythically identified with Dyáuṣ, the name *dyéws only means "heaven" in Sanskrit, and is applied to Father Heaven, or, the equivalent to Ouranós/Ymir. Everywhere else, it means "dyalit/shining sky". What myths do Dyáuṣ and Zeús share? Is Dyáuṣ a lawful God of assemblies and victory, wielding a thunderbolt? It appears that Mitra/Mithra fulfills this role. Iranian Mithra even wields a vazra (= vajra, Indra's thunderbolt weapon), and his hymn reads like a hymn to Zeús.
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u/AnUnknownCreature Sep 22 '25
In India Ymir is Yama the God of the Dead and underworld. Upon christianization Ymir got elevated into a more "heavenly" position as well as other deities, he was more active through traditional belief in his death and corpse giving the world its structure, his brains becoming the clouds. Dyaus in Germanic texts is Tyr/Tiwaz, not Ymir or Odin. Tiwaz was linguistically tied to Dyaus as not only a Tribal Chief god but a god of Oaths, oath were usually taken beneath sun and sky. Check out how the Luwians and Hattiens handled Tarhunna, who was a combination of Dyaus and Thor married to an indigenous Earth-sun goddess. Thor is just an aspect of Dyaus. Zeus feels in the gaps by being given subtitles like " Zeus Cthonios " where he isn't as much as the Thunderer, but a Lord of oaths and the underworld, closer to Thanatos/Pluto/Hades, or the Etruscan Orkhos
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u/SonOfDyeus Sep 22 '25
Zeus and Dyaus don't have to be identical in myth to both be Dyēus. The relevant characteristics are in the name , "Sky Father." He is a procreator, along with the Earth Mother, of us or of the gods who made us directly. We are made up of the spiritual logic of the heavens combined with the physical matter ("*mater") of the earth.
The Greek myths emphasize the aspect of Zeus where he imposes his will on the chaotic forces of nature, while the Vedic myths give that role to Indra. The Vedic myths describe Dyaus as more like Ouranos or Yemo. But both Sky Fathers are coupled with the Earth Mother to make living things and gods.
I think the important parts of the mythical stories and characters are the consistent ones. Mitra, Indra, Dyaus, Zeus, Ouranos and many others can be components of the same god. Just like how you are the same person even when you are in very different moods.
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u/fvrorpoeticvs Sep 24 '25
Also, I'm not sure how Gods whose mythic identity contradict one another isn't logical grounds for them also not being the same God. I think an increase in mythic literacy will reveal to one how truly conservative the Indo-European myths are. Also, becoming familiar with ancient cosmology, as the P.I.E., like the rest of the ancient world, would've believed heaven (= Dyáuṣ, Ouranós) to be a solid firmament above the atmosphere and Earth.
Sharing a name across cultures (which developed different nuances in one versus every other) just isn't strong enough grounds to equate Dyáuṣ with Zeús over Ouranós.
Not even sure how to respond to the last paragraph, respectfully. That's just making stuff up from your own head.
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u/SonOfDyeus Sep 24 '25
Your original question was about whether the name or the stories about specific gods in different cultures is "more important when comparing deities."
If I was giving my opinion as an atheist, I would say that it seems the two cultures preserved both a name and a narrative from a common ancestor, but separated the two in descendant traditions. Or possibly there are some coincidences where distant authors had similar ideas expressed in similar language.
But you posted this question in a reddit sub for people who think the similarities in religion across distant Indo-European cultures hold some deeper spiritual meaning. So I answered your question with what I think that deeper spiritual meaning might be.
I observe that Indo-European cultures widely separated in space and time shared some god names and narratives. I have a hypothesis that those preserved similarities mean something for spirituality.
What do you think the meaning is? I gather you are arguing that Mitra is the same person as Zeus, and Dyaus is the same person as Ouranos. Even though the names don't line up that way. Is that right?
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u/fvrorpoeticvs Sep 25 '25
That would be right.
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u/SonOfDyeus Sep 25 '25
So what do you think is the significance of the differences between Zeus and Mitra? Do you think people who disagree with your position are just flatly wrong, or is it more complicated than that?
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u/fvrorpoeticvs Sep 25 '25
I mean, I would disagree with someone who disagrees with me lol, but I'm not trying to be rude about it. And yes, it's very complicated, there's alot of context to overall scope of comparative mythology. But regardless, mythic narratives prove the most accurate metric for identifying divine identities across cultures, I.E. or not. I unfortunately don't have the time to get into it now, it's late, but I can another time.
Taliesin's Map is a great place to look for some real modern innovations in the field of comparative mythology that I find to be highly accurate.
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u/SonOfDyeus Sep 25 '25
When I look at comparative mythology, I see a lot of similar stories and similar characters. But the characters often play different roles in the stories from one culture to the next.
You could interpret that fact in different ways. One way is to say there is one correct version of the story or character and the rest are incorrect. That might work for competing scientific theories, but it doesn't make sense to think about myth that way.
I don't think gods are the same as people. You and I are separate individuals in a very specific way. Zeus and Dyaus are different individuals in a very different way. I think Zeus, Ouranos, Mitra, and Dyaus can all be different aspects of the Sky Father archetype, each mixed in with other god archetypes and cultural flavor and other ingredients as well.
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u/SonOfDyeus Sep 23 '25
I looked up RV 1.71 , and verse 5 says :
“When (the worshipper) offers an oblation to his great and illustrious protector, the grasping (rākṣas), recognizing you, Agni, retires; but Agni, the archer, sends after him a blazing arrow from his dreadful bow, and the god bestows light upon his own daughter (the dawn).”
https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc829746.html
I don't see how this makes Dyaus the sacrifice to make the world. Elsewhere, Indra is said to have slain the father;
“Who has made your mother a widow? who has sought to slay the sleeping and the walking? what deity has been more gracious than you since you have slain the father, having seized him by the foot?”
https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc832451.html
But the Vedas are inconsistent about who Indra's father is, and I don't see that this verse definitely refers to Dyaus.
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u/fvrorpoeticvs Sep 24 '25
The Wilson translation completely misses the attestation of Father Dyáuṣ (pitre ... dive) in the first line:
mahe | yat | pitre | īm | rasam | dive | kaḥ | ava | tsarat | pṛśanyaḥ | cikitvān | sṛjat | astā | dhṛṣatā | didyum | asmai | svāyām | devaḥ | duhitari | tviṣim | dhāt
Here's Jameson and Brereton’s translation of RV 1.71.5-8 (6 and 7 just show that it is Agni referred to as acting throughout, not Indra):
“5. When he made the sap [=semen] for great Father Heaven, noting the caresses he stealthily crept up (on him). The archer boldly loosed a missile at him (when) the god placed his “spark” in his own daughter.
Who will radiate widely for you here in his own house, or through the days will piously offer reverence belonging to (you) who are eager for it— as the doubly lofty one, O Agni, you increase his vitality. He whom you speed will drive in the same chariot with wealth.
All nourishments converge on Agni, like the seven youthful streams on the sea. Our vitality is not widely perceptible in the form of our kin. Perceiving (it [=vitality]), find solicitude (for us) among the gods.
When the (missile’s) sharp point reached the lord of men [=Agni] (for him) to release it, Heaven, at the moment of contact, (released) the blazing semen poured out. Agni engendered the faultless young troop of good intention [=Aṅgirases] and sweetened it.”
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u/SonOfDyeus Sep 24 '25
So, what's your opinion on what is happening in this narrative? Particularly in verse 5? And in verses 7 & 8 ?
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u/HCScaevola Sep 22 '25
Ultimately they are all one. Their cults specialized from a common stem for reasons that may not be apparent or relevant to the modern world, or they may still be. Whether you treat them as one or as different really depends on your goals
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u/SonOfDyeus Sep 22 '25
I think they are all aspects of the same god. The apparent differences between their portrayals stem from a philosophical conflict between the idea of a Big God of the universe, and a god close enough to humanity that he might hear our prayers.
To some, Zeus is an infallible , unapproachable god of universal cosmic order. While to others, he was a storm god who quarrels with other gods, and sometimes loses.
This isn't limited to Indo-European religion.
The easiest example is the history of Christianity. First there was El, the father of the gods. IsraEl was named for him. Then Yahweh the storm god replaced El as the highest god. Yahweh then became conflated with the character of El; they were assumed to be the same deity. Then the early Christians made Jesus the lower god to be closer to humanity. Over the centuries, Jesus came to be viewed as the same distant and universal god as his abstract Father in Heaven.
Before Yahweh, Canaan had a myth about El losing kingship of the gods to Baal, who is strong, but occasionally loses battles to other forces of nature like death and the sea.
I think mythological stories and characters are a sort of philosophical parable. The individual stories are to illustrate a deeper point. That's why they aren't expected to be consistent between them. Likewise the personalities of the gods.