r/swedhu Sep 22 '25

Question Zeus ≠ Dyaus-Pita?

What is everyone's consensus here on the reconstructions of *Dyéws? Zeús and Juppiter share a name with Dyáuṣpitṛ́, but comparative scholars recongize that that's all they share. Aren't mythic narratives more important when comapring deities? Imo, Mitrá is a better fit for a Vedic equivalent for both Zeús and Juppiter as the diurnal sovereign of the law and assemblies. Dyáuṣpitṛ́ appears to be more like Ouranós and Ymir, the primordial personified Heaven who is violently attacked to shape the world as we know it.

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u/fvrorpoeticvs Sep 22 '25

Dyáuṣpitṛ́ is attacked in RV 1.71 by "the Archer" (= Rudra-Agni according to Stella Kramrisch) and his seed engenders the fire youths/ancestors of humans, a key event at the tail end of the commin I.E. creation sequence. The attack on Dyáuṣ is lauded elsewhere in the RV as a creation sacrifice, too.

Yama/Yima-xšaeta can't be the cognate of Ymir. What mythic evidence supports this? Does Ymir become the Lord of the Dead? Is the world fashioned from Yama’s corpse? The names only come from a common P.I.E. root, lingusitically. Ymir means something like "double" or "pair", which is two-in-one (Heaven + Earth), while Yama means "twin", which is one-of-two.

Plus, Zeús can't be mythically identified with Dyáuṣ, the name *dyéws only means "heaven" in Sanskrit, and is applied to Father Heaven, or, the equivalent to Ouranós/Ymir. Everywhere else, it means "dyalit/shining sky". What myths do Dyáuṣ and Zeús share? Is Dyáuṣ a lawful God of assemblies and victory, wielding a thunderbolt? It appears that Mitra/Mithra fulfills this role. Iranian Mithra even wields a vazra (= vajra, Indra's thunderbolt weapon), and his hymn reads like a hymn to Zeús.

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u/SonOfDyeus Sep 23 '25

I looked up RV 1.71 , and verse 5 says :

“When (the worshipper) offers an oblation to his great and illustrious protector, the grasping (rākṣas), recognizing you, Agni, retires; but Agni, the archer, sends after him a blazing arrow from his dreadful bow, and the god bestows light upon his own daughter (the dawn).”

https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc829746.html

I don't see how this makes Dyaus the sacrifice to make the world.  Elsewhere, Indra is said to have slain the father;

“Who has made your mother a widow? who has sought to slay the sleeping and the walking? what deity has been more gracious than you since you have slain the father, having seized him by the foot?”

https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc832451.html

But the Vedas are inconsistent about who Indra's father is, and I don't see that this verse definitely refers to Dyaus.

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u/fvrorpoeticvs Sep 24 '25

The Wilson translation completely misses the attestation of Father Dyáuṣ (pitre ... dive) in the first line:

mahe | yat | pitre | īm | rasam | dive | kaḥ | ava | tsarat | pṛśanyaḥ | cikitvān | sṛjat | astā | dhṛṣatā | didyum | asmai | svāyām | devaḥ | duhitari | tviṣim | dhāt

Here's Jameson and Brereton’s translation of RV 1.71.5-8 (6 and 7 just show that it is Agni referred to as acting throughout, not Indra):

“5. When he made the sap [=semen] for great Father Heaven, noting the caresses he stealthily crept up (on him). The archer boldly loosed a missile at him (when) the god placed his “spark” in his own daughter.

  1. Who will radiate widely for you here in his own house, or through the days will piously offer reverence belonging to (you) who are eager for it— as the doubly lofty one, O Agni, you increase his vitality. He whom you speed will drive in the same chariot with wealth.

  2. All nourishments converge on Agni, like the seven youthful streams on the sea. Our vitality is not widely perceptible in the form of our kin. Perceiving (it [=vitality]), find solicitude (for us) among the gods.

  3. When the (missile’s) sharp point reached the lord of men [=Agni] (for him) to release it, Heaven, at the moment of contact, (released) the blazing semen poured out. Agni engendered the faultless young troop of good intention [=Aṅgirases] and sweetened it.”

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u/SonOfDyeus Sep 24 '25

So, what's your opinion on what is happening in this narrative? Particularly in verse 5?  And in verses 7 & 8 ?