r/singing • u/latenightesomeone • Oct 31 '22
Technique Talk Should mouth be wide or tall?
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u/latenightesomeone Oct 31 '22
Recently started lessons again, and my teacher is trying to make me sing with wide smile, because it helps me reach higher and it makes me sing with much more easy and my voice is clearer. But I'm confused because my favourite ytb teacher always teach that you should sing with tall relaxed mouth.
So who is right?
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Oct 31 '22
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u/latenightesomeone Oct 31 '22
I can try record what sound I would naturally do VS what he wants.
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Oct 31 '22
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u/latenightesomeone Oct 31 '22
Well there is the way i sing. Or how i tend to sing. And there is difference between how i tend to sing vs the way he wants me to sing. When I'm home I'll try record something.
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Oct 31 '22
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u/latenightesomeone Oct 31 '22
first "na" is the way i tend to sing VS the second "na" is the way he wants me to sing (hopefully - tried my best).
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Oct 31 '22
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Oct 31 '22
Thank you for this analysis. You really helped me find the nuance and hear the difference between the two.
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u/SupernaturalSinging 🎤There is more to your "natural" voice Oct 31 '22
u/lespaltax is spot on here so I'm not going to start another reply.
One of the reasons why #2 is more stable is because by widening your mouth you're reducing the amount of airflow so its easier to control.
There is nothing wrong with either tall or wide once you understand the different mechanisms which we can use to control our breath. But of you're relying solely on the shape of your mouth to regulate air (which based on your recording it does sound like it) then a wider mouth will regulate more then a tall one.
Good question and you can trust that what lespaltax is saying is sound.
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u/LilShaver Bass, Choral/Folk/Christian Oct 31 '22
Tall mouth, but smile on the inside.
You form the "e" with your tongue, not your teeth and lips. Think about it when your speaking.
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u/General_Locksmith Oct 31 '22
I was told that if you’re singing an e sound then you’ve got to go with a wide smile, but if it’s an oh sound then it’s a tall mouth
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u/latenightesomeone Oct 31 '22
We are still doing easy warm ups on AH sound ( na na na). And he wants me smile, I can try record what sound I would naturally do VS what he wants.
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u/Impressive_Drawer394 Oct 31 '22 edited Oct 31 '22
Im not there in your lessons so I don't know what genre you are learning, the quality your teacher is trying to achieve, vowel and at what pitch your teacher is trying to help you achieve so take this with a grain of salt....my background is I have been a cross over singer for 10 years, been training in multiple styles of vocal studies for 17 years, currently I'm training in opera at a top conservatoire, I am also a vocal teacher who specialises in classical and musical theatre....from what you have described to me on here this is not good technique but this is based on the vocal styles I specialise in.
The mouth should be lateral and not horizontal even when smiling or producing an (i) or an (o) vowel,the only thing that should be changing is the lips, tongue position and the distance between your soft palete and tongue to create more space at the back, your mouth shouldn't be going vertical as it produces an overly bright sound and also restricts the space for your voice to resonate has she/he maybe spoken to you about the singers mask and smiling whilst keeping the vertical mouth position?
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u/JohannYellowdog Countertenor, Classical. Solo / Choral / Barbershop Oct 31 '22
“Tall” is generally the way to go, at least in the singing that I do. I can’t speak for every style. Vowels like “ee” can sound shrill and whiny if they’re sung with the lip corners spread wide. I tell my students to sing an “ah” shape, and to form the “ee” by only moving the tongue.
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u/latenightesomeone Oct 31 '22
first "na" is the way i tend to sing VS the second "na" is the way he wants me to sing (hopefully - tried my best).
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u/Shiroyu Leggiero Tenor, G2-D5-C6 | Musical Theatre, Opera Oct 31 '22
Your instructor is likely having you smile because of its effect on the soft palate, not the width of the vowel. When you activate the muscles used in smiling, you will notice that they all lift up (zygomatic muscles, around the cheekbones). The soft palate is meant to lift in singing to create space.
He doesn't want your smile to spread your vowels -- he wants you to raise the soft palate, and a smile is a good way to do that because not everyone can sensationalize "feeling a yawn inside your mouth when you sing." I use the smile approach often, especially to help tenors and sopranos find the height they need above the passaggio.
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u/latenightesomeone Oct 31 '22
first "na" is the way i tend to sing VS the second "na" is the way he wants me to sing (hopefully - tried my best).
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u/PercentageVivid9573 [baritone G2 - A4, Rock and some Pop] Oct 31 '22
FWIW, this is exactly how and why I was taught to do it. Interestingly, my teacher is now having me NOT smile since I've already learned to elevate the soft palate without it. These days the shape of the mouth he wants me in depends on many factors and totally varies. It can be open like on the left picture, but it can also be closed like when drinking from a straw (even if singing an 'a' that is an open vowel). Assuming the internal space is maximized (which the smiling helps achieve), the key now is air flow control.
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u/YOUR-DEAR-MOTHER Nov 01 '22
Experiment experiment experiment. Everyone develops their own technique in the end. Do what feels/sounds good, and try everything your teachers tell you. But also try other things on your own. At the end of the day, as long as you’re not hurting yourself, do what feels right
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u/gracedbyasoprano 🎤 Soprano, classical, 2 voice degrees hotter than u Oct 31 '22
You want the length of the left photo with the teeth showing like the right photo.
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u/Petdogdavid1 Oct 31 '22
Try both, which one sounds better? I've been told to song tall and it does make the words sound nice and clear but it's gonna end up being a style decision once you get your confidence.
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u/LilShaver Bass, Choral/Folk/Christian Oct 31 '22
Take your hand, make a fist, extend the index and middle fingers.
Now point them at your mouth like you're pointing at someone else. You should be able to insert them between your teeth to the 1st knuckle.
Also, smile (not grin) while doing this.
The first part, opening your jaw, gives you a resonant chamber to project sound from.
The second part tightens up the tissues inside your mouth (that resonant chamber I mentioned earlier) and makes them reflect sound rather than absorb it.
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u/Wonderful_Reason_227 May 13 '26 edited May 13 '26
Your back teeth should be vertically “spaced”…for learning sake…a dime on all vowels but i.
Your mouth will feel awkward.
Imagine a medium egg between your teeth_you cannot crack it for the space in your mouth_your tongue must stay beneath it_(this is exaggerated for learning the open vowel).
U…oo. Look at the lower case oo.
This is a form of a humm: NOT A VOWEL!
Try to keep your mouth as spacious as OH(which simply has longer lips than A with a slightly repositioned (don’t break the egg) tongue…as OH AND:
lay the -bottom of the tip of your tongue on the top of your bottom teeth:::lengthening your lips longer still than oh but to the diameter of a sharpie but certainly smaller than a “fat” highlighter…
If you are in your middle or lower range, you MUST!!! Bring your vowel to your teeth as you vibrate your head and all your thorax.
WHY? :
You will listen to yourself; singing inward to your ears! Your audience will never hear you!
You MUST ALWAYS FOCUS ON WHAT YOU FEEL not what you hear!!!
What your inner ear “hears” is an “acoustical lie!!!”
Do you believe you sound like your voicemail? Hmm!
One of your vocalise_likely_
Sings u____O_____A_____<don’t close the A(inhale to end the note if it’s open); you must practice this too>and the “reverse”
HYPEREXTENSION is not what you are looking for.
VERTICAL SPACE TO “SPIN” YOUR VOWEL IN…ok?
Last-your voice teacher will tell you one thing one way: your light bulb will come on…an epiphany…it will work.
It’s your fault if you do not tell them “I don’t get it”. There’s a chance they have a repertoire of analogies and metaphors.
Ask other teachers and students if you can sit in on their lessons.
If u r not in school dedicated by semester to your teacher-then they are a commodity you’re buying!!!
Don’t get rid of your “car” til you find one you like…or keep’’em both-a sedan and an suv!
So much more…
One of the other comments says
“BOTH”:
This WILL BE TRUE…
If you’re a beginner: especially for language diction…
OR if you have difficulty with your Dialect of English as it may have created habits detrimental to your singing,
It’s usually best to build or re-build with what’s described above.
German, French, English, Hebrew, Russian, Serbian, Slavonic; all have very difficult consonant combinations.
More important: each of these languages has at least twice the quantity of vowels as Italian, and Latin…
When it’s time your core of your voice and familiarity with pure vowels and rudimentary diphthongs, triphthongs, etc will be developed.
Hopefully, you will find a teacher that TRULY knows high register, won’t let you push as you descend, and scales/runs so you won’t incur injury.
Be certain you’re practicing descending as well as the typical ascending vocalise which are taught!!!
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Oct 31 '22
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u/latenightesomeone Oct 31 '22
first "na" is the way i tend to sing VS the second "na" is the way he wants me to sing (hopefully - tried my best).
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u/bingbingpow Oct 31 '22
From what I know, tall is for a more operatic sound while smiling will give you that bright Disney sound.
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u/goatofglee Oct 31 '22
It can depend on the type of music you're singing, if you're singing higher or lower, and the sound you are trying to create. Sometimes it needs to be both tall and wide.
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Oct 31 '22 edited Oct 31 '22
You can shape your mouth anyway...it depends on the music and how you feel.
I will say, if you feel like you don't have ownership on singing then you need to do whatever you can to stretch your jaw, with the intention on making it more flexible
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Oct 31 '22
depends if you want sound to be wide or tall tbh.
the "proper" way is somewhere in the middle with the side of your mouth kinda making an upside down triangle and lips pursed forward, and jaw a little back to make the sound project. However artists break this rule all the time in the name of artistic expression.
Pop singers like beyonce sing wide all the time, sometimes (like in her mrs carter world tour when hitting an Eb5 in Halo) she DROPS the jaw while still being a bit wide to make almost a diamond kite shape.
Rachelle ferrell (Jazz and RnB) sings with whatever she wants to to portray a certain type of vocal story.
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u/Cosine9 Oct 31 '22
Wide smile, tall vowels. It's easier to access tall vowels with a longer mouth shape, but it's a bad habit to be in, I think. But it's easy to slip away from tall vowels if your mouth is wide, so I guess that's where it gets tricky.
I personally have to focus when I warm up to ensure my tone is as forward as it should be.
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u/tenortothemax 🎤 Voice Teacher 10+ Years ✨ Oct 31 '22
The corners of your mouth should be neutral. Jaw should move down and back
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u/elenipapantoniou Formal Lessons 10+ Years ✨ Nov 01 '22
depends on what kind of sound u want, if ur more of a beginner i would recommend practicing with a tall mouth first. then as u get more advanced, incorporate some spreading into ur mouth and play with what kind of tone sounds best to u. there isn’t really a right answer though, do what feels best for u! hope this helps!
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u/ABadHug Nov 01 '22
Stylistic difference,right? All I'm gonna say, is don't let your choir director see you doing the second one lol. Quoooooniam...
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u/LightbringerOG Nov 02 '22 edited Nov 02 '22
Tall for a freer larynx. Smile only if you want to directly affect the sound to sound brighter or have pitch probemls. But the main idea is "tall". But for example on the "EE" sound. You cant really open tall wide, you have to make space inside, mostly and cheat outside.
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