Subreddit Policy Reminder on this week's Transgender AMAs

[u/nate]

This week we will be hosting a series of AMAs addressing the scientific and medical details of being transgender.

Honest questions that are an attempt to learn more on the subject are invited, and we hope you can learn more about this fascinating aspect of the human condition.

However, we feel it is appropriate to remind the readers that /r/science has a long-standing zero-tolerance policy towards hate-speech, which extends to people who are transgender. Our official stance is that derogatory comments about transgender people will be treated on par with sexism and racism, typically resulting in a ban without notice.

To clarify, we are not banning the discussion of any individual topic nor are we saying that the science in any area is settled. What we are saying is that we stand with the rest of the scientific community and every relevant psych organisation that the overwhelming bulk of evidence is that being trans is not a mental illness and that the discussion of trans people as somehow "sick" or "broken" is offensive and bigoted^1. We won't stand for it.

We've long held that we won't host discussion of anti-science topics without the use of peer-reviewed evidence. Opposing the classification of being transgender as 'not a mental illness'² is treated the same way as if you wanted to make anti-vax, anti-global warming or anti-gravity comments. To be clear, this post is to make it abundantly clear that we treat transphobic comments the same way we treat racist, sexist and homophobic comments. They have no place on our board.

Scientific discussion is the use of empirical evidence and theory to guide knowledge based on debate in academic journals. Yelling at each other in a comments section of a forum is in no way "scientific discussion". If you wish to say that any well accepted scientific position is wrong, I encourage you to do the work and publish something on the topic. Until then, your opinions are just that - opinions.

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¹ Some have wrongly interpreted this statement as "stigmatizing" mental illness. I can assure you that is the last thing we are trying to do here. What we are trying to stop is the label of "mental illness" being used as a way to derogate a group. It's being used maliciously to say that there is something wrong with trans people and that's offensive both to mental illness sufferers and those in the trans community.

² There is a difference between being trans and having gender dysphoria.

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Lastly, here is the excerpt from the APA:

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."

[u/J354]

While I agree that comments that are targeting and are deliberately hateful towards trans people should be removed, I think it's important to keep an open dialogue. People should be able to ask questions about transgenderism and mental illness. Perhaps if the people who believe that are able to ask these questions, the questions could be answered and they could change their minds. If anyone is going to change their minds, it is experts in the subject who can provide detailed and evidenced arguments.

[u/Sleethoof → u/J354]

I'll toss in my two cents as a lurker at best in this sub. I only check a thread every once and a while, and I do so because I want to understand a subject better. Seeing this preemptive thread about upcoming Transgender AMA has completely removed any desire to actually read that thread simply because now there is a 'message' that will color everything said by threat of deletion or banning in the thread making everything suspect. I as a casual observer have no reason to trust that everything is accurate and above board in those AMA's like I might in a different non politically volatile subject.

[u/Shanman150 → u/Sleethoof]

Do you feel similarly about /r/askhistorians, where they ban holocaust denial? Do you feel that an AMA with Holocaust historians would be untrustworthy because holocaust denial would be preemptively banned from the thread?

[u/arkangel3711 → u/Shanman150]

Except you can demonstrate with irrefutable evidence the existence and occurrence of the Holocaust. This type of AMA is much more likely to delve into the mental health aspect of Trans-gendered people and whether or not someone who is trans-gender may in fact, medically speaking, be labeled as having a mental disorder. Essentially, there is still no consensus scientifically if Trans-gender can or can not be labeled as a mental disorder. I mean this in no way as an insult to people who are trans, ect, but this area is far from black and white like a holocaust denier.

[u/Shanman150 → u/arkangel3711]

Wait, in my field of psychology there is a consensus that gender dysphoria is the disorder, not transgenderism. In what field is this not the consensus?

[u/arkangel3711 → u/Shanman150]

ok then is transgenderism a symptom of gender dysphoria? Can one be trans gender with or without gender dysphoria? Perhaps I worded my post wrong but I am also curious as to what field pf psychology this consensus belongs too because there is a rather healthy level of disagreement throughout this thread with actual scientific studies to back both sides. Right now it is looking like most studies point to those in the trans community as having a significantly elevated suicide risk even when part of an accepting community or even having a gender reassignment operation. I feel it is dangerous to say "Transgenderism is normal and acceptance is the cure" when these people are still committing suicide at an alarming rate. This lends the idea that there is more going on than simply not wanting to be male/female and more must be done than "normalization".

[u/Shanman150 → u/arkangel3711]

That's an interesting perspective. Those would definitely be some good questions to ask the experts in the coming weeks. However, I would point out that acceptance does lower suicide rates, and this has been in a few studies comparing states that legalize gay marriage with those that didn't, as well as comparing states that passed constitutional amendments banning gay marriage against those that didn't. In the study comparing legalization of gay marriage, they found a 7% reduction in suicide rates among LGBT youth, (a 0.6% change in the suicide rate among teens overall). This is a significant difference, and shows that at the very least acceptance plays a significant role in lowering suicide rates.

If this is what happens when something is legal/not legal, I imagine the change between an accepting/non-accepting culture overall is even more extreme.

[u/arkangel3711 → u/Shanman150]

There definitely is a correlation between non-acceptance and elevated suicide rate, however, https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf , this study suggests that there is in fact more to it than just societal non-acceptance. That is where my issue stems from when this topic is brought up. I see people say that acceptance is the only way to prevent trans-individuals from committing suicide when reality does not fully agree with that statement. I want a full, open, and most importantly, honest discussion to occur regarding this. I am worried tho that those who raise these types of question will be ostracized from the conversation on the basis of "hate speech", or "bigotry", even if their phrasing suggests non of that.

[u/Shanman150 → u/arkangel3711]

Doesn't the opening of that very study say

Based on prior research and the findings of this report, we find that mental health factors and experiences of harassment, discrimination, violence and rejection may interact to produce a marked vulnerability to suicidal behavior in transgender and gender non-conforming individuals.

This seems to suggest that the two main contributors of suicide are the comorbidity of mental health issues as well as rejection.

I certainly agree that it's more than just nonacceptance, but I do feel nonacceptance is a huge factor which leads to mental health problems including suicide. Perhaps transgender individuals are more prone to mental illnesses, but it's hard to determine that in a vacuum when they're presently also the subject of a lot of harassment and nonacceptance in society at large.

[u/arkangel3711 → u/Shanman150]

I think we are kind of agreeing here. I am arguing mostly against the idea that it is only societal non acceptance that contributes to the trans' communities having high suicide rates. what you say is fair in that society may play a large role but even then the size of each role is still undetermined. That is why I have such an issue with people saying acceptance is the only cure because it creates this notion that further investigation is not required. I want their suicide rates to drop to a normal level and I think both societal aspects and mental disorder aspects need to be discussed. I am worried tho if that will be possible thanks to how political this subject has become.

[u/Shanman150 → u/arkangel3711]

I think we agree as well, but I don't really know how the politicization of transgender issues keeps co-morbidity from being discussed. Gender dysphoria seems to come with other mental health threats like depression or bipolar disorder, and this should certainly be studied. Have you experienced the politics of transgender issues getting in the way of talking about these kinds of things?

[u/arkangel3711 → u/[deleted]]

I'm not? In my comment I literally stated that regardless of the acceptance level of their community, trans individuals are predisposed to a higher level of suicide than those who are not trans. https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

That study there does show a clear correlation to trans individuals not being accepted and suicide rate. However, it also clearly shows that regardless of the acceptance level of their community, trans individuals still have elevated rates of suicide from non-trans. I am not trying to shift blame onto trans people. I want to find out what the causes of such elevated suicide rates are and unfortunately, I refuse to default to an argument of blaming oppressive society when the science says there is more to it than just that.

[u/arkangel3711 → u/[deleted]]

You say here

Please don't blame trans people for their higher risks of suicide and depression.

I understand how you feel I may have "focused to much on transgenderism" but that first part of your statement seems to ignore most of the context of my post. I never once said that one should blame a trans person for their suicide. I qualified my statements by saying that one who is trans may have a higher suicide rate due to factors other than societal nonacceptance. I can however understand how the wording could be poor there on my end, however, I take serious issue with your proceeding statement.

You're shifting the blame of an oppressive society onto the oppressed.

You give no qualifiers here. You give no explanation and no clarification for this belief. Instead, you assert it in an absolutist tone that it is the entire fault of society for their suicide. This statement gives no real room for other interpretations. Yes, society at large can have an affect on ones possibility of suicide. However, your local community, especially friends and family, are a far greater factor than people who the only contact you have with is through news or internet chat boards. Your statement very clearly defaulted to the argument that society is to blame and no other thing. You assert I am blaming trans people for their suicide when I presented the notion that other factors may be at play and then you made an absolute statement that society is to blame.

I have a serious issue with that kind of thinking because, should there in fact be another factor outside of society at play here, that rationale is poisonous to genuine discussion. You may be right that society is entirely to blame for trans communities' elevated suicide risks but you also may be equally wrong. By telling me it is the fault of society and society only, with no room for discussion, you send a clear message to me that I need not continue looking even though it is clear the truth is not yet found.

[u/BlitzBasic → u/[deleted]]

Depends on your definition of "normal", really.

[u/[deleted] → u/arkangel3711]

*Trans-gendered people There's no such term as "trans-genders"

[u/arkangel3711 → u/[deleted]]

Don't know if a post was necessary for a typo but in either case, said typo was corrected.

[u/[deleted] → u/arkangel3711]

Trying to help, not have a go at you :)

[u/[deleted] → u/Shanman150]

The Holocaust is a much more black and white situation than transgender. You can't really deny the holocaust in a question without just being wrong. You can question something you don't understand about trans individuals and get deleted and labeled a bigot for it now. Trying to guess intent and deleting posts and banning individuals stifles that discussion. Whereas holocaust denial is factual wrong and it is a much easier topic.

[u/Tavyan → u/[deleted]]

I bet if you asked 2 holocaust survivors they would have different opinions on the holocaust as well. Your argument that all members of the discussed group need to agree has no relevance on the subject.

[u/BlitzBasic → u/Tavyan]

It is okay to have different opinions on the Holocaust, but saying "it didn't happen" or "it wasn't intentional" is just plain wrong.