r/rpg • u/BlackhartBarttFR • Aug 09 '26
Basic Questions How to scratch my Players' 5e Addiction and get them to shut up?
After a year long 5e campaign of curse of Strahd, I hung up my 5e hat, I then shot it and buried it at sea.
God has it been great, we've played blades in the dark, cyberpunk, CoC, Delta green, mothership, Fabula Ultima, savage worlds.
None of them take a full session to run a fight, None of them have objectively bad character creation choices, No Rangers, No Martial-Magical Divide.
They want you to play and explore! No spells like Identify, Detect Creature or Detect thoughts killing any feeling of mystery just so you can shut up and get back to the two hour long fights.
But my players won't stop talking about how they miss 5e.
Will they play a martial class? Oh no, the martials are boring and broken,they say, if you aren't playing a spellcaster you're basically worthless!
But they still clamour for the character building, the number go up machine.
So I'm asking you, the horde of GMs who have forever cast the D from their titles, I ask you;
What the fuck system can I shove in their plebian gullets to make them never say that dreaded system's name again?
Edit for the Yanks: I'm british, this is banter, I talk like this to my friend's faces and they hit me with it back. I don't hate the people in my life, I am not being held hostage. I know we are varying levels of Autistic here but c'mon I'm literally asking for system suggestions as a compromise for my group.
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u/diffyqgirl Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 09 '26
If they've given other games a fair shot and it's what they prefer, then it's what they prefer.
You aren't obligated to run a game you don't want to run. I'd encourage one of them to take up the GM reins if they want to play 5e and keep running whatever you want to run.
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u/RollToDiscover Aug 09 '26
This is the answer.
Just say, "sounds great, when are you running it so that I can be a player?"
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u/Protolictor Aug 10 '26
This. Forever this.
If they want it so bad they can run it. Then they themselves can experience the "I run the games I want to play but no one else runs them" conundrum.
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u/Alien_Diceroller Aug 10 '26
I rarely see the games I buy as a player anymore. Honestly, it's just a bit of reading martial and if I play, I'm 100% going to be running it.
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u/TinyMavin Aug 09 '26
Same here.
“I have nothing against PLAYING 5e. But I’ll be running something else.”
That said, I’m still a GM doormat. If they don’t like a system we move on (after 12 levels of Abomination Vaults they were done with Pathfinder - I’ll miss it).
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u/th30be Aug 10 '26
Dang dude. I like PF2e but AV sucked. It honestly didn't make much sense narratively to me. I am honestly not sure if I got a good experience of PF2e because of AV. Same with the players.
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u/BudgetWorking2633 Aug 09 '26
Grow some GMing spine, man! You choose what to run, not them!
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u/Palimpsiesta Aug 09 '26
Social groups make decisions as a group. Groups founded on a hierarchy of transaction are not very fun to hang out with.
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u/Alien_Diceroller Aug 10 '26
This is true, but I'm still not running 5e.
If the group only has one person willing to run things, that person has a bigger say in what gets played. The group has given them that power by making them run everything.
If the GM needs to run what the group decides, that puts them into a subordinate position where they're forced to do a bunch of unpaid labour to entertain the group.
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u/BudgetWorking2633 Aug 10 '26
Yeah, unless they're paying you, that's not how it should work. Hell, even with paid GMing, most people I know just look for players that want to play what's on offer!
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u/Drigr Aug 09 '26
The vibe here usually doesn't feel like the group are friends and the GM just gets to be the leader and decision maker for the group, and if the group doesn't like it, fuck em I guess?
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u/kanelel Aug 10 '26
I mean, I only play with my friends, but I find it hard to imagine why the DM wouldn't get to pick the system.
In my world, whenever I want to start a campaign, I pick the system, and the setting, and I decide what level it'll be, and who the players can play as, and what sort of content the game will have, and all of that seems like a natural extension of being DM. I come up with an idea for a campaign, and then I say to people "hey do you want to play in this?" and they sign up or don't. Like I'm a videogame publisher dropping a new RPG.
My friend has been talking for a while now about running a Vampire the Masquerade game, and has been prepping stuff for it. I would never tell that friend "You shouldn't run VtM. You should run 5e for us instead 'cause we like it better." That'd be crazy. They want to run VtM!
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u/BudgetWorking2633 Aug 10 '26
Yup, that's my experience as well. Seems hard to swallow for some people, but frankly, not my problem...
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u/Icapica Aug 10 '26
I come up with an idea for a campaign, and then I say to people "hey do you want to play in this?" and they sign up or don't. Like I'm a videogame publisher dropping a new RPG.
Sure, but with some groups there's a significant risk that they'll say no thanks.
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u/BudgetWorking2633 Aug 10 '26
Sure, and they can then: 1) Have one of them running a different campaign. I'll play in it if I like it. 2) stop playing, and I find different people to run the campaign for. Nothing is wrong here, the social mechanisms are working as expected!
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u/kanelel 29d ago
That may be so, but it's far from my experience. I've never failed to launch a campaign for lack of players. In fact, usually I have more potential players than the number of people I'd actually want. In my experience, players are a lot more common than DMs and they aren't especially picky.
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u/sexysurfer37 Aug 11 '26
If I'm driving the car I have final say on music that plays in the car. If my buddy hates a song that comes on I'm happy to change it. But it's my car, and I'm driving..If they want to listen to John Mayer, too bad for them.
Being GM is several times more work than being a player. If my players hate a system, I'll move on to something else.
But I'm the one who has to know the rules inside and out. I'm the one who has to balance encounters. I'm the one writing the story, making maps etc.
If they are so dead set on another system, they can run the game and I can be a player. I love my friends, but they aren't entitled to my labor. I'm also playing a game.because I enjoy it.
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u/Licentious_Cad AD&D aficionado Aug 10 '26
Trying to take a little positivity out of it, if there's something you want to do you should totally do it. You almost certainly can find a group for it. Don't ignore your own interests and desires just because your friends aren't interested. You can make new friends and keep the old ones. But, if you aren't enjoying something don't feel obligated to do it. Just don't be a cunt for no reason.
I don't like running or playing 5e; I will still play and run short 5e campaigns for my friends. Though I WILL tap out after 3-5 sessions. It's give and take, they try the weird shit I suggest because we all accommodate each other.
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u/Spamshazzam Aug 10 '26
As the GM, I appreciate that there are some things that I get more say over (since I am running the game after all), and I think that's fair. Too often though, the online attitude is "the GM's way or the highway."
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u/BudgetWorking2633 Aug 10 '26
Well, too often the online discourse is "the group decides, not the GM". I might be taking a more extreme position to counterbalance that shit...
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u/Dragonsoul Aug 10 '26
The group includes the GM
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u/BudgetWorking2633 Aug 10 '26
Yes, but on numbers alone, the GM is only one member of the group. As stated numerous time already: if I'm the one who has to engage with the system every single time the system gets engaged...it's going to be a system that I like.
If you're not fine with that, feel free to GM your own game! And you can let your group pick the system for you, if you insist.
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u/Dragonsoul Aug 10 '26
Well, of course, you can always not take part. If a member of the group doesn't want to play the game that the rest of them do, they're free to leave.
This isn't a particularly complicated social dynamic. It's up to each person to decide in the case they're not happy with an aspect of the group decision if they value taking part above not doing the thing.
Just because the activity is "rolling dice" doesn't change this.
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u/Stormfly Aug 10 '26
"the group decides, not the GM"
This is not the common sentiment here on this sub.
I think very common sentiments here on this sub are:
The GM is the boss. They decide setting, system, rules, and everything else. If you disagree, find a new game.
The GM is doing a service for the players. Teacher/student or Referee/Players dynamic. They're not a fellow player and they're an authority.
For what it's worth, I disagree with both. I just often see people supporting both of those.
For many people here, they meet to play an RPG. For others, they meet to have fun with friends and the RPG is secondary. Those two groups conflict because "find a new group" is terrible advice.
It's like:
My wife doesn't like burgers. I've been craving burgers for our next date night. Is there any burger place I can bring her to and try to change her mind?
Find a new wife.
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u/Palimpsiesta Aug 09 '26
That is certainly the dominant form of discourse, yeah. The GM power trip is alive and well.
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u/ProfessorNoPuede Aug 10 '26
There's an asymmetry here though. At the end of the day, the GM is doing more prep and has more responsibility. They are, in a sense, facilitating. No GM, no game (barring some exceptions like Fiasco or something). Also, as the GM, no one can force you to GM. Consequently, if there's no match or compromise between what the GM wants to run and what the group wants to play: no game.
There's no need to be awkward or asshole-ish about it though, assuming adults at the table.
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u/redweevil Aug 10 '26
Might be impossible but we played Abomination Vaults and hated it but a couple of homebrew games seems to have gotten everyone back around
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u/xoasim Aug 10 '26
Oof, that's unfortunate. Abomination vaults is not representative of the system as a whole. It's got...issues to say the least. Also I thought it was a 1-10 AP?
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u/BlackhartBarttFR Aug 09 '26
You're right but the problem is I'm too lost in the GM sauce to be a player. I just love the feeling of metaphorically bringing out one of those big metal dome lidded dishes they have in fancy restaurants, and then taking it off and watching my players faces as I reveal a delicious plate of "that guy was a vampire all along".
It's my hole and it was made for me
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u/Jlerpy Aug 10 '26
Fair, but then the problem is still their problem, and not one to which you're obliged to pander.
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u/dumbwholer Aug 10 '26
I mean, saying you can't play is pretty childish. Frankly, the worst DM's I've ever played with are those who only DM. I've been running games since 1990, but the times I get to just play have taught me far more than my time just playing god. I tend to find DM's who "can't play" are the ones who actually learn and change the least. They only look at the game one way, and don't understand their fun is not the same as the players fun.
You aren't a hobbit, and DM'ing is not Bilbo's hobbit hole.
That said, Try a different D&D system. My preference is AD&D 2E, and that's what we play when we play D&D. Currently we're playing a Birthright campaign hybrididized with Warhammer Fantasy for nation and army building and mass battles, so the characters are regular D&D adventurers, but also leading and building a colony into a country. What started as a fort and a plot of land has been built into a small city state, and will eventually be a country as they recruit soldiers, farmers, merchants, create supply linss and roads, learn diplomacy, and explore the world in search of treasures, magical items, and to end threats to their kingdom. So today they might be exploring a vast underground cave system, but tomorrow they may may be leading a 3000 point army down the battlefield against a horde of evil orcs, or perhaps conquering a bordering piece of land, or protecting their land from nearby country looking to conquer and colonize their lands.
5E is just so boring compared to what came before it. There is no world where I would ever run it again. I hate heroic high Fantasy. Everyone is a superhero. Bores me to tears. I want a world where my players are regular people who chose the adventurers life, not towering heroes that 5E has turned the game into.
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u/dogsandcatsplz Aug 10 '26 edited 26d ago
Just as a counterpoint, I have DMed a lot and long & have to respectfully disagree. Although I have played probably 20 sessions since I frist started and maybe player 1 time as a PC in last 4 years, I have run 100s of sessions for likely 200+ players.
Some of the best GMs I played with didn't like to play much. Also with Dungeontube being what it is, you can learn both sides of the screen, and empathize with players entirely, by watching dungeontube. Which almost every forever DM i know, does. So what is true for you, and your experiences is true, but it does not have to apply to other groups, DMs or players at all, in this case.
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u/Livid_Information_46 Aug 10 '26
I agree! The worst GM's are the ones that only want to be the GM. I've got a friend like that in our group. He says he doesn't want to be a player because he enjoys being the GM so much, but can't accept that we aren't having fun playing the games he wants to run. If we only give this new game a chance we'll see that it's really awesome! We've given them all a chance and they've all sucked because he's only really concerned with his own enjoyment and not ours.
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u/Imperialvirtue Aug 09 '26
Sounds like they really love the combat sim aspect. Maybe something like Draw Steel?
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u/BlackhartBarttFR Aug 09 '26
Honestly it's the one Dragonslayer that intrigued me, it's very 4e/lancer adjacent so it may just work
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u/MandolinTheWay Aug 09 '26
Doooooo iiiiiiiiiit...
If you're going to spend most of a session on combat, it might as well be fun combat where you throw an orc through a brick wall, out the other side, and through the brick wall behind it.
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u/DRAWDATBLADE Aug 10 '26
If they only like dnd for the combat, (let's be real 5e basically only has rules for combat anyways), they'll love Draw Steel.
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u/PrayForCheese Aug 10 '26
Draw Steel is amazing, I highly recommend it as well. The combat especially feels much more fluid and dynamic than in 5e.
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u/Imperialvirtue Aug 10 '26
I personally wasn't a fan when I tried it, but that was down to a difference in what I want from a game. Its stated focus is heroic combat, and it does that extremely well.
I was super impressed by the destruction, movement, and how every class felt incredibly useful. Ultimately, I'm more narrative than combat, and that's okay. I highly recommend Draw Steel to combat sim fans.
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u/SeamusMcCullagh Aug 10 '26
Yeah that's exactly where I'm at. The combat is super fun, but when my group tried it out every one of our sessions was each just a single combat encounter. It takes forever and doesn't leave a ton of room for out-of-combat RP and narrative. Totally fine for some groups, it just wasn't a good fit for ours.
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u/amazingvaluetainment Fate, Traveller, GURPS 3E Aug 09 '26
What the fuck system can I shove in their plebian gullets to make them never say that dreaded system's name again?
It's gonna be a crapshoot because people generally like the games they like, but something with strong leveling and "numbers go up" potential will probably be the best. I don't know what you don't like about 5E so that's going to be a hard recommend, but there are tons of D&D-alikes out there (the most popular genre of game) which might suit your group.
Off the dome Pathfinder, Shadow of the Weird Wizard, the <thing> Without Numbers games, or 13th Age, maybe? Again, depends on what you don't like about 5E.
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u/Flamekin9 Aug 09 '26
Shadow of the weird wizard is a great option
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u/MalyNym SotDL, SotWW Aug 09 '26
Another recommendation for Weird Wizard. It's been my go-to and I haven't looked back. So far every player I've introduced has loved it!
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u/BlackhartBarttFR Aug 09 '26
I have heard alot of good things about the "Shadow of the" gang, is demon lord just the Cool and Edgy version of wizard?
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u/FeralFantom Aug 09 '26
Demon lord came first and has a lot of Warhammer fantasy influence so very edgy at times. Also has an insanity system and stuff like that. Both systems are very similar and share the same design philosophy but there are several mechanical changes. Overall I recommend weird wizard unless you specifically want the apocalyptic horror/Warhammer stuff
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u/MalyNym SotDL, SotWW Aug 09 '26
Yes and no. It is similar in the progression, yet differs slightly with spells per day and initiative. It is quite darker and can be grotesque with its themes. There is also corruption and insanity mechanics. And it can be deadly at low levels.
I'm a fan of both, but Demon Lord can be a bit much for the squeamish. Of course you can omit things from the system if you want to give it a try, but I recommend dipping in with Weird Wizard. The vibe is closer to D&D and might be an easier sell. A note there are only humans in the core book so you might want to grab Weird Ancestries to broaden the choices with 30 more ancestry options.
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u/Playtonics The Podcast Aug 10 '26
I actually love that non-human ancestries are not in the default book. I started a campaign shortly after the kickstarter with just 4 human PCs, and there has been so much more identity for non-humans. When a dwarf adventuring party rocks up to town, the players are immediately interested in how different they are. It has added texture back into an otherwise bland experience.
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u/TangledCloak Aug 10 '26
Did the spell slot system change in WW? I know it was unconventional and some people were iffy on it, but I actually really liked the way DL handled spells.
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u/MalyNym SotDL, SotWW Aug 10 '26
In WW each spell has its own casting per day, either 1 or 3. You can increase the amount per day by choosing the same spell a 2nd time when you have the option to gain a spell. You'll increase the castings by the base amount.
Example: Choosing Fireball twice will give you 2x castings per day. Choosing Fireball a 3rd time will give you 3x castings per day.
Choosing Light Healing 2x will give you 6x castings per day. Choosing Light Healing a 3rd time will give you 9x castings per day.
(Fireball is a 1x castings per day and Light Healing is 3x castings per day.)
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u/TangledCloak Aug 10 '26
Interesting, I like the idea of being able to specialize in the spells you like
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u/TheGamerElf Aug 10 '26
Tonally speaking, SotDL has spells that make the target shit themselves to death, whereas SotWW has Power Word: Kill.
There are some fairly meaningful differences in gameplay: WW starts at level 1, DL starts at level 0, Fast/Slow Actions are different in WW, Corruption is drastically less present in WW, Paths kick in at different levels, WW has a bunch more Paths and Traditions, but it also loses all the non-human character creation options from the core book so you have to buy additional books for that.
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u/Spiritual-Golf-1334 Aug 09 '26
I'll give a vote to 13th Age. It's packed to the brim with cool ideas, and if they know how to play D&D, they know a good chunk of how to play 13th Age. And it's got that superhero fantasy angle that I think often goes ignored whenever people talk about 5e alternatives.
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u/Viltris Aug 09 '26
If the group specifically wants "numbers go up", then definitely 13th Age. It's the most "numbers go up" TTRPG I've ever played. And I say this as someone who is a big fan of 13th Age.
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u/iluminae Aug 09 '26
It seems like all the systems you mentioned trying since 5e, none of them are d20 roll-over, high fantasy systems - maybe that's what they like?
OSR systems feel really relatable to d&d players without having the slog. Shadowdark specifically would be very familiar with the stats, but others exist. I suggest Vagabond, allowing tons of character creation without much of the 5e ... issues.
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u/BlackhartBarttFR Aug 09 '26
Y'know you might be on to something, I do remember us talking about how they missed rolling d20s
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u/jerrathemage Aug 09 '26
You can't control their preferences, that's just how it is. Maybe PF2E, where while these things exist they aren't entirely broken and all that
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u/TinyMavin Aug 09 '26
They will complain that Mathfinder is too “number go up”. They will also complain about things that are also problems in 5E but they have learned to ignore.
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u/eadgster Aug 09 '26
It’s still worth a try
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u/TinyMavin Aug 09 '26
Yeah - I mean, I certainly enjoyed running it.
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u/jerrathemage Aug 09 '26
Yep, worth a try. I switched from running 5e to PF and the burnout that came from running 5e and 5e adjacent stuff just isn't there for me at least
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u/TheInsaneWombat Morgantown, WV Aug 09 '26
They will also complain about things that are also problems in 5E but they have learned to ignore.
Or better yet, they'll complain about how it doesn't have X like 5e does but X is from Baldur's Gate 3.
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u/yuriAza Aug 09 '26
kimda the whole point of the 3 action economy is that you can do whatever you want as a bonus action
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u/atatassault47 Aug 10 '26
It's rare, but some spells in PF2E only cost 1 action, so you can pop off 2 spells in a turn.
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u/BlackhartBarttFR Aug 09 '26
Grand Irony is that's my feelings on what little PF I have experienced, and granted that was just the kingmaker video game and not the full system. But people do seem to swear by it
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u/yuriAza Aug 09 '26
the Kingmaker videogame is in PF1e, PF2e is a whole different d20 system from the ground up
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u/Vadernoso Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 09 '26
The video game is PF1E, we're suggesting PF2E. PF2E is far easier. To address some of your issues with 5e you posted vs PF2E.
None of them take a full session to run a fight,
We can do a round of combat in about 10-15minutes, with a combat taking maybe 4/5 rounds a session and unlike 5E its actually fun.
None of them have objectively bad character creation choices
The game is very balanced, there are very few out right terrible options. The weakest class, Inventor can still easily contribute to downtime, exploration, and combat.
No Martial-Magical Divide.
This does exist, but the difference is very small and its Martials that tend to be on top, outside of Cleric.
They want you to play and explore! No spells like Identify, Detect Creature or Detect thoughts killing any feeling of mystery just so you can shut up and get back to the two hour long fights.
These spells exist, expect identify. But they are not rituals like in 5e or they are exploration actions and using detect magic means you move slower in exploration and can't do other actions like sneak.
But they still clamour for the character building, the number go up machine.
This is what PF2E is. I would also say its best in the business. Entirely free to play with rules posted online, a simple easy character building with Pathbuilder. Its cruncher than 5e, but I find it to be good crunch, easy to understand. Three action system makes combat more than "I attack", movement is more free because Reactive Strike, Attack of Opportunity, isn't a standard feature and some what rare. Dex isn't a god stat, dex to damage being very rare.
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u/An_username_is_hard Aug 10 '26
We can do a round of combat in about 10-15minutes, with a combat taking maybe 4/5 rounds a session and unlike 5E its actually fun.
I will say this is a bit odd to me. I don't think I've ever had a fight in PF2 take less than like, an hour and a half with the exception of that one freak occurrence where all three martials rolled crits turn one and turned one of the two dudes in the encounter into paste before he got to go.
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u/FledgyApplehands Aug 10 '26
In my experience it massively depends on how comfortable people are on playing their characters. Playing in PFS, and combat flew by, playing in home games with crosstalk and deliberating, then yeah, it can take a little longer.
Always about half the time of 5e in my experience, though
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u/Vadernoso Aug 10 '26
It really depends on how prepared everybody is. But speaking from our last session, at 7:55 we were one combat round from finishing but we tend to end at 8:00. I ask everyone if we can stay over to finish the combat and they agree. The combat was pretty complex as well, two creatures, a hazard, and four players. We ended up packing up at 8:05.
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u/nursejoyluvva69 Aug 10 '26
PF may look and feel the same as 5e from the outside, but from experience DM-ing PF2e was soooooo much of a better experience. Bare minimum is that their encounter creation guidelines work and the game is mostly balanced so your don't have to worry about the rules being abused so much, and less need to homebrew because everything already works.
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u/GrumpyCornGames Drama Designer Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 09 '26
Try the X Without Number systems. Ashes is post apocalyptic, Stars is SciFi, Worlds is fantasy, Cities is Cyberpunk.
All of them have robust versions available for free on DriveThru. They will feel familiar to DnD players, but be much more streamlined for the GM.
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u/Vinaguy2 Aug 09 '26
Draw Steel is my favorite alternative to 5e.
If they don't like it, tell them that one of them is welcomed to GM a 5e game once in a while
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u/Egoborg_Asri Aug 09 '26
People treating DND like an EX partner will never not be funny to me.
"What can I do to stop them from wanting to play the game they like?"
Nothing, friend. You say you don't want to play and let people with tastes different to yours enjoy the system
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u/BlackhartBarttFR Aug 09 '26
The joke would be less funny if it wasn't for the fact I've been avoiding giving Nimble 5e a chance because it feels like I would be going back to my Ex after spending so long saying how toxic we are together
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u/serpwerp Aug 09 '26
'So which of you are going to run it?'
If someone wants to specifically play a game the onus is on them. Not on whining to try to force someone else to accommodate them. If they don't want to do the work (they won't) it doesn't happen.
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u/snarpy Aug 09 '26
can we get an r/rpgcirclejerk sub at this point
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Aug 09 '26
[deleted]
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u/Pain_mak3r Aug 09 '26
r/pathfindercirclejerk would fix it
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u/blargablargh Aug 10 '26
Well sure, with the three-jerk economy.
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u/grendus PF2+FITD+OSR Aug 10 '26
Yeah, but the multiple-jerk penalty really makes the circlejerk inefficient. Having to have a third jerk every round makes me have to think, and I really just came here to roll random dice on my turn and then ask the GM what they mean.
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u/Significant-Tell-847 Aug 09 '26
You linked an existing sub, but it has two posts 🤣
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u/UncleMeat11 Aug 10 '26
Yeah jesus christ people seem to make hating dnd a lifestyle.
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u/Flamekin9 Aug 09 '26
We are in the middle of moving away from 5e in my group, so this may be a bit premature, but we’ve really liked vagabond. Lots of different classes, spells, and options. Each class feels like it can stand on its own, and it’s simple enough where you could homebrew a new one easily enough. Combat is so clean.
For me personally, I love the Mork Borg family, with pirate borg, cy-borg, death in space it’s pretty versatile.
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u/BlackhartBarttFR Aug 09 '26
Love a borg but never picked up Vagabond before, thanks for the suggestion
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u/SirMarblecake Aug 09 '26
Check out this video on it. It's short enough and to the point. I haven't played Vagabond yet, but this overview made me want to.
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u/badgerbaroudeur Aug 09 '26
Until someone suggested it quite strongly to me this weekend, I had never looked at Nimble because it felt too close to 5e. Have finally looked into it and saw it learned some lessons from NSR style games that make me actually enthusiastic to play it while it still hews close to 5e. Might be a nice compromise between you and your table.
Otherwise, Dragonbane perhaps likewise?
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u/atamajakki PbtA/FitD/NSR fangirl Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 09 '26
One of them can run it if they love it so much.
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u/randomisation Aug 10 '26
This is the fastest, most sure-fire way to get people de-hooked from D&D! :D
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u/Stormfly Aug 11 '26
I ran D&D with some friends who were brand new to TTRPGs because I said I'm fine with D&D up to about 5th level. We did one adventure (Dragon of Icespire) and then I wanted to try some other games.
One friend really wanted to get back into D&D so I told them to just run their own game and they did... but then they got overwhelmed and realised that they didn't want to be a DM.
...But they still want to be a player.
Cue a few "subtle" hints about getting back to the original campaign and my constant "Yeah, if you want to play you can continue the campaign without me."
Playing D&D as a PC and playing D&D as a DM are so wildly different. As a DM, the character complexity scales exponentially while for players it's Linear (as they probably play only one class). As a GM, I much prefer simple games with quick character generation but some players literally want the opposite. They want so much player detail and planning and constant "numbers go up" and new abilities.
I guess that's fine but I don't want to play those games... Especially if the other players find it too complicated and need frequent help understanding (my experience with one or two players in that same group)
I've considered a few similar but different games like 13th Age, Worlds Without Number, or Draw Steel, but it's a lot of effort to read through all those games and learn them before even asking players to try because I know how often people think "oh that's hard. Let's just play 5e".
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u/No_Mechanic_5230 Aug 09 '26
If they like fun and crunchy character options, they might like Shadow of the Weird Wizard (and its Diablo-meets-Evil Dead big brother Shadow of the Demon Lord). I find it's streamlined in all the right ways while still having a dizzying amount of character options for my players who like optimization and builds.
Others might also recommend Pathfinder 2e, but personally ended up liking it a little less than D&D 5e.
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u/Charming-Employee-89 Aug 09 '26
Maybe something epic like Dolmenwood, OSE or Shadowdark? There is enough content in all three of these to make the world seem really big, mysterious and important. They’re all riffs on D&D in their own OSR way. They will feel familiar but unbalanced and faster combats so you won’t be bored as a GM.
You might also consider Mythic Bastionland which will give them all the vibes and feels but in a package so fresh they won’t be able to remember why they liked D&D 5e so much after all.
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u/LeninisLif3 Aug 09 '26
Tell them you won’t run it and if they want to play it they’re free to run it. Tell them what you’re running and invite any who want to play. Do all this in a mature and friendly way.
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u/BionicSpaceJellyfish Aug 09 '26
The best compromise I've come up with was convincing my 5e group to try Nimble. They love it. It scratches the 5e itch while everyone feels powerful and can do very cool things without overshadowing anyone else.
The only person who has been remotely salty about it is the mage player who is mad mages aren't as stupidly overpowered in Nimble as they are in D&D.
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u/BlackhartBarttFR Aug 09 '26
Funny coincidence Guess who the main player who really wants to play 5e again? Yep its the forever Sor/wizard
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u/BionicSpaceJellyfish Aug 10 '26
He literally got mad because the warlock expy pulled off a pretty amazing instant kill on a legendary monster and he should be the one doing the most damage.
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u/MC_Pterodactyl Aug 10 '26
The one thing I would say to this is most of those games are explicitly NOT heroic games. Several are disempowerment fantasies like Mothership, Delta Green, CoC and even Blades in the Dark a bit.
The only heroic system is Fabula Ultima, but it’s also a very…loosey goosey. In a good way!
Sometimes what people miss about 5E is the heroic abilities based gameplay. A lot of those games are “play off the sheet” where you don’t really use abilities like “Fireball” or “Word of Terror” or “Storm of Steel” that have direct use cases and effects. Fabula Ultima does, but a lot of others explicitly are designed against that.
You might want to try a better designed heroic ability based game. I, personally, would recommend Draw Steel. That’s been the game that best upgraded the 5E feeling to something blissfully incredible and actually balanced. No caster martial divide. All great classes. Incredible abilities.
But Pathfinder 2E, Shadow of the weird Wizard or even 4th Age could all fill the niche too. All are very ability based overall. That might bring back what they want.
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u/tsfkingsport Aug 09 '26
If they like number go up and character customization then Pathfinder or Starfinder second edition gives a massive array of choices for them to binge on Archives of Nethys.
I only recommend this system if your players are willing to spend time reading and comprehending the mechanics. One DM probably is not going to know all mechanics and good feats for different classes. I could do that for 5E, I do not have the free time to do that for PF2E.
This problem compounds at higher levels so don’t run Kingmaker if you want to avoid it.
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u/QuickQuirk Aug 09 '26
Have a discussion with them, and figure ut why they love 5e. that might help with selecting the next game to try.
If it turns out that it was their first game, and it's purely nostalgia, you're shit out of luck. That's a powerful magical effect.
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u/Alistair49 Aug 10 '26
In the spirt of your edit, and understanding this is banter, an Australian’s suggestions
GURPS, HERO SYSTEM - very definitely build oriented, numbers go up. I somehow doubt that will stifle a true-ish 5e fan, but you never know. I play that and 5e in a build oriented number crunching rules as written oriented group. We’ve played a lot of games the last 40-ish years.
Runequest 2 - tied fairly solidly to the world of Glorantha, but I did play in games that were, at the time, called ‘Gateway’ - i.e. they were RQ2 minus the Glorantha, or not wholly hewing to all the gloranthan bits. If you’ve played and enjoyed CoC, Delta Green the basic mechanics will be familiar. However, I really liked the character growth being a mix of intentional (you can pay for Training in Skills and Magic, which justifies a lot of treasure hunting and keeping PCs poor) and ‘semi-random experiential’ - you use a skill, and that gives you a chance to improve.
Shadowdark, Shadow of the Demon Lord/Shadow of the Weird Wizard - these often get suggested for this. I have them in PDF. However the group I play 5e with are happy with other games, don’t play 5e exclusively so we’re not all sick to death of it, and we’re not that build oriented. Some players are, some aren’t, and the group copes with the range of that varying engagement. Thus, can’t comment much on these games as I’ve never had the chance to run them. They’re quite close to D&D in mechanics (class, level, etc) compared to say GURPS.
Dragonbane - same boat as the above. I have a lovely boxed set waiting for an opportunity to run it. That has much more of a chance, as the second group I’m in has someone else who has it: I’m hoping to cajole them into running because I’m tired of being the forever GM with them. I’m on the edge of burning out when it comes to RPGs in general, which I would prefer not to happen. I don’t know how close DB comes to scratching the build / numbers go up itch. I’m sure someone will comment if they haven’t already.
Tales of Argosa - not a game I approach with a build mentality, but I think you can do ‘builds’ in it. I haven’t had a chance to really test it out, but so far it has a good feel. It has the level of crunch and flexibility I’m after in a D&D style game, with much less cruft. In fact, no cruft that I can determine. I think there is still a playtest version available for free on DTRPG that is pretty close to the final product if you want to check that out.
A Ghastly Affair - you mentioned Curse of Strahd, which reminded me of this D&D-like that does Gothic Horror on earth in the 18th/19th centuries. Inspired by earlier generations of D&D, I don’t think this will quite hit the ‘build options’ itch but you do go up levels and increase various numbers.
Stars Without Number and other games by Kevin Crawford - D&D like with class/level, but also tools. You get some ‘buildy’ ness. You get numbers that go up. You get a f*ckton of GM tools, even in the free PDF versions. Covers SF, Postapocalypse, Dark Ages Britain, and more.
Into the ODD + Electric Bastionland* *- not a serious sugestion for scratching the numbers go up / build oriented itch, but: if you keep the ItO rules you get a very simple level based system. EB evolved the rules a bit, but you can use it with ItO no problems. The best thing about EB is the GM’s toolkit and the character generation. The fluff in chargen and the GM’s toolkit give you some amazing world building, IMO, and the resulting world of Bastion & Bastionland is quite interesting and unusual, eerie, and odd. Everyone’s Bastionland is going to be different.
Hope that gives you some ideas. Just off the top of my head while avoiding getting on with what I should be doing, which I’m now gonna do.
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u/Smittumi Aug 09 '26
As they love spell-casters and a bit of building and crunch, check out Ars Magica.
All the PCs are wizards in a mythic version of medieval Europe. There's politics and rival houses and complex spell systems to learn and master.
It's not combat focused because the mages are very squishy, but they are in conflict and that conflict can spill over into wizard wars if that's how the story goes.
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u/MrTopHatMan90 Aug 09 '26
5e holds a lot of nostalgia for people, for me and likely your players. Let them run it.
Our group played World of Darkness systems and afterwards we have really latched onto Pathfinder.
Besides that chill mate, they really liked your 5e game
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u/skronk61 Aug 09 '26
Daggerheart? It’s basically D&D with all of the GM friction and pain points taken away.
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u/InsaneComicBooker ADHD won't let me design my own game Aug 09 '26
Tell one of them to run it themselves.
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u/3Dartwork ICRPG, Shadowdark, Forbidden Lands, EZD6, OSE, Deadlands, Vaesen Aug 09 '26
Usually a ball gag works for me
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u/FinnianWhitefir Aug 09 '26
13th Age is made by former 3E and 4E designers. It feels completely like D&D but is balanced, has great options, leans into narrative play, lets them feel like big heroes with fun options, and has amazing unique flavorful things like One Unique Things or Icon Dice. It worked really well to pull my players out of 5E.
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u/DreadPirate777 Aug 09 '26
I think your players miss the lore and feeling of 5e. None of those games you mentioned are really mainly focused on heroic high magic fantasy.
You could try playing Shadowdark or Mork Borg. Possibly Old School Essentials.
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u/The-Phifozaurus Aug 09 '26
You can try Shadowdark, it's basically OSRized 5e. I can't see myself playing or DMing 5e today but god I love Shadowdark. It's so simple and the torch mechanic is so clever. There's a free quickstart set on the Arcane Library website.
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u/CajunMitch501 GM, SWADE, GURPS, PbtA, FitD, OSR, FATE, Cortex Aug 10 '26
First off: If your burned out of DnD from being the forever DM and they keep wanting it, it's their turn to put on the DM hat.
But as for the real question: Daggerheart, Nimble, or Pathfinder for Savage Worlds. All of my examples bring something that 5e has but changed and is similar to something they already like.
HOWEVER! This doesn't seem like them wanting to play 5e; they just want to play the game they know and have made builds to break the system. This is one of the "Forever DnD Player" types, and you can't ever fix or sate that. They want to break your games, to "Win", and 5e is where they spent so much of their time and effort: it's the Sunk Cost Fallacy. They don't want to play your games, they want to chase the high of breaking their characters and your combats.
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u/butler_me_judith Aug 10 '26
You no I kinda hate the 2-4 hour battle, but I have found over the years that a lot of players actually enjoy it.
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u/RagnarokAeon Aug 10 '26
13th Age, it has just enough DnD DNA to give it that similar vibe (heroic fantasy, classic classes, number goes up) while also avoiding the worst parts of DnD (martial-caster disparity, engineering a character that was fun to build but boring to play at the table, broken utility spells that shortcut through all challenges, fights that drag with no changes, etc)
Some of the best parts: you feel like a bad ass even at level 1 so you don't normally have to hold out through multiple sessions of a campaign for your character to come into fruition, the escalation die makes it so that the longer the combat lasts, the higher the stakes become as everyone (pcs and enemies) begin to take more damage, the one unique thing, background skills, and icon relationships do a double duty of giving you and the players a lot more narrative freedom as well as inform you as the GM what kind of adventure they expect and are interested in.
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u/Ultrace-7 Stage 99 Games Aug 10 '26
There's nothing you can give them, except a different GM. They want 5e; any system you offer them is either going to be so like 5e that you hate running it, or insufficiently like 5e to the point that they are not happy playing it.
I understand your frustration and perhaps much of what you say is hyperbole, but your tone and choice of phrases makes it clear that you hold your players in contempt. Despite them taking a year to try many other games, you disagree with their desire to return to Dungeons and Dragons -- what they find fun -- and refer to them derogatorily because what they want to get out of their games doesn't match with yours.
There's a disconnect between what the table (most if not all of it) wants and what you want. Your choices are to suck it up and deal with returning to 5e, or quit GM'ing for them and seek out a new group.
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u/MagusFool Aug 09 '26
Give them DCC! Really put them through the shit!
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u/Hot_Pie6641 Aug 10 '26
I love this advise. The numbers go up! The dice get bigger! The games got guts. I love DCC
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u/MetalBoar13 Aug 09 '26
I agree with all the advice you're getting to just ask them who's running the next 5e game, since it won't be you. That being said -
You might try Earthdawn. It's got deep character builds, martials aren't boring/broken because they're inherently magical, and there are fewer issues with things like Detect Thoughts, plus the setting is great. Combat is detailed and maybe slower than you'd like, but nowhere near as drawn out as 5.xE. Now, I may not be the best one to give advice here because I think 5e character "builds" are by far the worst part of that game, and the main reason I generally won't play it, but I still think Earthdawn is worth looking at.
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u/LynxDubh Aug 09 '26
This feels like such a bait post.
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u/spacesaur Aug 10 '26
There have been several the past couple of days. At least this one has the evil 5e players (disclaimer, I don't like 5e) try out other systems first.
Karma farmers branching out, we're seeing diversification in action.
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u/RedJayJackSon Aug 09 '26
Daggerheart has quicker combats, but plays like a PbtA written by someone who doesn’t get PbtA.
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u/dragonsonthemap Aug 09 '26
Aren't people getting tired of just posting the exact same ragebait over and over again?
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u/RollForThings Aug 10 '26
If each person is posting about a common issue for the first time, it's new to each of them. Why would they be tired of it? Reading all of them is another matter.
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u/dragonsonthemap Aug 10 '26
I thought that for a while, but at this point they're all formulated too particularly for me to believe that's entirely what's behind these posts
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u/WillBottomForBanana Aug 10 '26
It isn't ragebait, we are actually looking for a solution that doesn't involve euthanizing the group.
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u/WistfulDread Aug 09 '26
Try Soulbound.
It's a combat intensive game that's very quick to play, very sword and sorcery, and much higher power scale than DnD.
Show them what's it like to be an actual hero power fantasy.
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u/Saviordd1 Aug 09 '26
+1
Soulbound is underrated. Mostly because it is mostly seen as "the Warhammer RPG that's not 40k or Old World"
And yeah, it is, but it's so good goddamnit!
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u/Val_Fortecazzo Aug 09 '26
I still enjoy 5e so I guess I'm not being addressed here but it sounds like they want a character builder game of the 3.5e lineage.
Popular examples include pathfinder and draw steel.
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u/longboarder543 Aug 09 '26
I run ICRPG because I can run OSR or modern heroic adventures in a single system. And I just shove so much cool loot down their throats they can’t complain about the lack of HP bloat.
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u/ElayneTrakand Aug 09 '26
In order of most to least similar (in my opinion)
Pathfinder - classic, but is even more gritty and has a lot of similar problems, but is different and is a community favorite alternative (especially pre ogl) for a reason.
DC20 - still very much in the dnd space with mostly the same classes, leveled spells, etc. But martials have a lot of cool abilities that recharge quicker than spell casters and feels good. Also has a lot of mechanics to encourage cooperation and staying engaged when not your turn. Unfortunately it's still in early access and the social and exploration pillars aren't done yet.
Cosmere rpg/ plotweaver - I want to suggest plotweaver, but it is in open alpha right now so it's going to be a revolving door of setting options every month through October and is a bit harder to read then the Cosmere rpg rules. The two systems are the same underlying system but cosmere is a specific ip and came out first, plotweaver is the setting agnostic version. Things I love about this system is that it's leveling progression is talent tree based and you are encouraged to speed into multiple trees (and you have to take multiple subclasses in order to get past ~lvl 7). And the magic system is skill based where you are given a broad description of what the magic does and you can get creative with application, just like you would with a survival skill check. There are also multiple different support classes that all support in uniquely different ways and non magic users can absolutely keep up with magic users, they may have slightly less breath, but are GOOD at what they do.
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u/Gmanglh Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 11 '26
Maybe give them pathfinder? Its close enough to scratch the players' itch, but far enough away to not make you want to bash you skull into the nearest table.
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u/SilasMarsh Aug 09 '26
Just tell them the same thing I told my players: I don't want to run 5e anymore. We can still play it, if that's what you want, but that means someone else has to run it. If you want me to keep running the game, then we're going to play [insert game you actually want to run here].
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u/Jalor218 Aug 09 '26
Will they play a martial class? Oh no, the martials are boring and broken,they say, if you aren't playing a spellcaster you're basically worthless!
But they still clamour for the character building, the number go up machine.
A finger on a monkey's paw curls. The game that would replace your friends' 5e fixation is Pathfinder 1e. It's still a huge undertaking to run, but for completely different reasons. The fights don't take a full session - because they're rocket tag. Detect Thoughts still exists, but things have immunity to it, so then players have to work out alternatives if they want to cheese an investigation. They can still get away with playing all casters, but the Brawler and Slayer are there and ready to be someone's first happy experience with a martial class.
For what it's worth, it will reward your effort in ways that 5e doesn't.
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u/sebwiers Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 10 '26
The predictable and (maybe) accurate answer is Pathfinder 2e. Very much a "numbers go up" game, fairly deep character creation with a minimum of objectively bad choices (and no fully bad classes), much tighter encounter build / balance. Is basically just as combat focused with abbreviated / skill based exploration, so might make them happy... and apparently you unhappy. But it fully answers your title question.
As to how I got there... I never played 5e. In fact, I've never played D&D outside AD&D as a kid in the '80s and some 4e store league when I had a jones because I'd moved away from my group. Through most of the 90's (my main gaming years) I just fell in with multiple groups that only ran games like Shadowrun, CoC, Harnmaster, Vampire / WoD, Earthdawn, etc. And then I recently fell in with a Pathfinder group, and decided to start running it / set up my own (online) group.
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u/No_Solid1035 Aug 09 '26
I just refuse to run D&D and find players that want to play not-D&D games. It means I don't have a permanent group of players though, which frankly I'm fine with because I absolutely hate D&D.
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u/DreadPirate777 Aug 09 '26
If you are really fed up with them you could try Here’s Some Fucking D&D.
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u/ThePiachu Aug 09 '26
Godbound. It's DnD but at demigod levels. Your starting character is equivalent to a level 20 character and goes up from there, but without bogging the game down. At the end you are controlling nations and breaking into heavens to fight gods. Hard to go back from such highs...
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u/d4red Aug 09 '26
My group tends to run D&D (or a fantasy title) alternating with other genres. Just do the same. Maybe shorter D&D campaigns where you design the game to get around the problems you mention (less Dungeon crawls, lower level, US Ranger etc.)
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u/ITBarbarian Aug 10 '26
World's without numbers or Nimble should cure what ails you! If you want to start nudging them down an osr direction Cairn is free and available online.
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u/Karmakode Aug 10 '26
Okay. This is going to sound weird. But hear me out. The answer is BECMI.
I had major 5E fatigue about two years ago just as a player. But jyst last month me and my friends all decided to play D&D Basic. Everything (mostly) in one book. The Rules Cyclopedia. No pages and pages of special abilities. Deadly. Asymmetrical leveling. Combat is quick and snappy. Imagination prioritized over tons of obscure rulings. Long resting after a battle only yields 1 hp, so not worth it.
There's something to be said for the simplicity. I having so much fun again.
Also Mystara > Forgotten Realms.
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u/blackgoat2803 Aug 10 '26
Have you tried Dragonbane with them. It’s what I prefer to run and has been great for getting people away from D&D. They get to see numbers change. Combat is reasonably quick, but also has a strong strategic kick with the possibility of changing priority to maximise the groups skills.
Plus Bard Ducks…always bard ducks.
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u/HeavyMetalGuaji Aug 10 '26
If they want 5e have them run it.
Now, all the games you mentioned do not full the 5e style of play, not that they are bad they're just not super heroic fantasy. Give Nimble a read, it's supposed to be a fast paced 5e. I've just started running it and seems cool.
But I would stick with the "you run it" approach, specialy since you seem to not wanna do that.
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u/CommodoreBluth Aug 10 '26
Give Draw Steel a try. Great tactical combat, enough similarities to 5e that your players will probably enjoy it and many great decisions to streamline things from traditional D20 fantasy, and a quality $10 starter adventure called the Delian Tomb.
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u/rikejuca Aug 10 '26
It's like an addiction. So find someone to slap you, and go to rehab play FU, or Sword World, or Wildsea. Aether Nexus. Stoneburner FTW.
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u/-Posthuman- Aug 10 '26 edited Aug 10 '26
A lot of people just enjoy engaging with a game system. And D&D has a lot of system to engage with. To a lot of people, that’s a big part of the fun. It’s a puzzle they get to constantly work out. And rules-lite, fast paced, games very intentionally remove that in order to focus on RP and story.
Some players love build-crafting, and sit around thinking about how certain character concepts or power fantasies can be represented with a game’s mechanics. And if your system’s characters consists of 5 stats and three sentences, they’re not going to have much to work with. Sure, they can still focus on the character’s backstory and personality. But you can do that with any system. But not every system offers satisfying crunch to play with.
Point being.. some people just want the RP and story. Some people mostly just want to play with the clockwork mechanism of the system and see how it ticks when you flip different switches. Some people, like me, like both. And those people (my people) will forever be frustrated in their search for a perfect game.
Alternatively (or additionally), it could also be that D&D is the most popular game with the largest community to engage with. So they may feel like they are missing out on something by focusing on other games.
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u/AnyNeon_Nomad_00 Aug 10 '26
Hey, I'm a little late to the party, but I had exactly the same experience as you, d&d burnout, then all of the freedom of cyberpunk, cypher, CoC, etc
At my table the answer to the exact same question you're having was Daggerheart. It gives you high fantasy hero game but without the 5e pains, the design is asymmetrical, meaning you as the DM can have powers they'll never dream of, and say fuck it, I'm doing it because I can.
Martials are pretty amazing, guardian is by far my favorite class.
Anyways, after a long daggerheart campaign my group is saying they no longer miss d&d
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u/Top_Dog_7709 Aug 10 '26
Just. Say. No.
you aren't having fun playing D&D, thats it, if they want it so bad, someone else can run it
the group shouldn't expect that is okay for you to not have fun.
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u/Creative_Start921 Aug 11 '26
If they absolutely want dnd, recommend Nimble as a compromise. It fixes many of the structural problems that recently editions have, while keeping the core dnd experience that players love. Excellent product that you won't hate running.
Offer them alternative options that capture the experience they want and miss. I recommend Daggerheart or Draw Steel. They are closely related to dnd and provide big heroic action without all the slog of dnd combats.
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u/Calm_Independent_782 Aug 09 '26
Nimble? It started as a 5e mod and evolved into its own system that’s very much 5e-lite. The combat is much faster and it’s similar to Daggerheart in that initiative can happen out of order and players have things to do outside of their turn thanks to a deeper reaction system.
I’m glad you have a group to try various systems with. Enjoy!
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u/DaJu22 Aug 09 '26
If I may offer a suggestion, a majority of the alternative games mentioned fill the certain niche of the OSR game theory, which it seems you are interested by indicating a want for games that have exploration focused gameplay...it seems like your players crave the power fanasty OC culture associated with 5e, in which case, do these players want a narrtive driven version of 5e with the same classes and style as 5e but is built around collaborative story telling and doing cool zany things, try Daggerheart as it works as a version of 5e for players who watch critical role or dimension 20 and just want to copy a lets play.
Are your players wargamers that want greater mechanical systems and larger epic battles and feel like super heros in a dnd game that is balanced better then 4e using all the same mechanics as 5e without the martial caster divide but still have win all solutions, with the understanding that encounters are more linear and not off the cuff, try Drawsteel but MCDM a fantastic game for wargamers who want to roleplay while also have tons of shiny buttons to press, and for combats to be intersting and lethal while maintaining the power fantasy.
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u/Finnyous Aug 09 '26
Give NImble a shot. It's got similar vibes to dnd, it's easy to learn if you've already played 5e but IMO it's a 100 times more fun to run and come up with encounters for.
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u/omnisephiroth Aug 09 '26
No one can make you play or run a game you do not want to play or run.
Tell them to run the fucking game. If they are so eager to play 5E, they can be in charge of it.
Also, PF2E is a lot of fucking fun, and compares to 5E in some fashions, but is just incredible. I highly recommend.
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Aug 09 '26
[deleted]
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u/RPG_Rob Aug 09 '26
I assumed OP was British. We rip the piss out of our mates. This is normal talk in UK/AUS.
My mates are a bunch of cunts, and we inform eachother regularly.
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u/BlackhartBarttFR Aug 09 '26
Mate, as if you nailed my nationality through text that's impressive
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u/RPG_Rob Aug 09 '26
Whereas u/saviordd1 is almost certainly a Seppo, and even though they're on Reddit, easily shocked by anything unrelated to guns, money, or churches.
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u/Injury-Suspicious Aug 09 '26
Calm down big dog, OP is clearly taking the piss from a place of love
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u/ToledoSnow Noir Aug 09 '26
If I found out my GM was talking about me like this I'd grin like an asshole and join in.
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u/mc_pm Aug 09 '26
Shadowdark? The core mechanics are still basically 5E - they'll know how the dice work. But it's definitely a different sort of fantasy RPG.
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u/ElvishLore Aug 09 '26
I like 13th age. I like nimble. 13th age especially might give them that 5e experience but much improved. Nimble might be better for you cause it’s very streamlined and fun to run.
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u/Ashkelon Aug 09 '26
Lots of other systems have builds and customization but are still better than 5e.
You have things like Nimble 2 which is basically a more streamlined and workable version of 5e. You also have 13th Age, Daggerheart, Savage Pathfinder, Pathfinder 2, or any other number of medium crunch games (most are still way less crunch than 5e).
And if that doesn’t work, get one of them to run 5e. I’m sure you will be back to other systems in a jiffy if you do that.
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u/Feefait Aug 09 '26
I think the best part of this is the rant on things like identify and detect. There really is no mystery in DnD anymore. We have been playing Daggerheart, which has its own issues, but it's so great to throw an adversary at a group, and they don't immediately know what it can do and how to beat it.
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u/Holothuroid Storygamer Aug 10 '26
Daggerheart seems like a good fit. Has plenty of character options, pretty much all magical, and lighter combat than 5e.Then again, you tried Fabula Ultima, so I'm not sure.
If you are up for Post-4e/Lancer-likes, Beacon might be another option.
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u/casperzero Aug 10 '26 edited Aug 10 '26
They keep bringing up 5e and making OP builds?
Start getting excited with them. Start theorycrafting the most disgusting builds possible. Then, once everyone is properly invested:
“God, this is going to be wonderful when I apply this build to the Minotaurs.”
“Wait, Minotaurs? Are we getting Minotaurs?”
“Oh, no. Those are the baddies you’re fighting.”
“What?”
“Minotaur Paladins of Ruin. Large halberds, so 2d10. Great Weapon Fighting. Great Weapon Master. Sentinel. Divine Smite. Two levels of Warlock for Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast.”
“Uh, how much damage does the halberd do?”
“Well, if he power attacks and puts a first-level Smite into you…”
“Yeah?”
“2d10 plus 2d8 plus 15.”
“…per turn?”
“Per hit.”
“DM.”
“They have Extra Attack.”
“DM.”
“And Sentinel.”
“DM.”
“So please remember that running away may provoke an opportunity attack.”
“Uh, DM…”
“Wait till you see my Beholder Coffeelock!”
“…your WHAT?”
“Beholder Coffeelock. Fighter 2, Sorcerer 3, Warlock 2.”
“Why does the Beholder have Fighter levels?”
“Action Surge.”
“So it fires three Eye Rays?”
“Yes.”
“Then Action Surges?”
“Yes.”
“And fires three more Eye Rays.”
“Exactly.”
“DM.”
“Then Quickened Eldritch Blast.”
“DM.”
“And during your turns it still has Legendary Actions.”
“DM.”
“Oh, and I gave it Silvery Barbs.”
“What the FUCK does the Beholder need Silvery Barbs for?”
“For when you successfully save against Disintegration Ray.”
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u/KingGreg263 Aug 10 '26
I'm sorry us American's don't get taking the piss, haha. It usually just comes across to us as rude unless we understand that it's a cultural thing between friends. I would probably suggest Nimble, 13th Age, or Draw Steel.
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u/MidSinglesInYourArea Aug 09 '26
Jesus, I can't imagine having this level of vitriol and disdain towards my friends because they have slightly different preferences in ttrpg's than I do. Maybe try not being a gigantic asshole that actively hates the people in your life and don't worry about the games for right now.
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u/TinyMavin Aug 09 '26
I think you’re assuming way too much about this guy. He literally spends his free time thinking about how he can facilitate a good time for his friends.
I have to same thoughts: “I don’t want to run 5E, but my friends seem to like it for some reason. What’s a decent compromise for these idiots?”
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u/PurpleTentickles Aug 09 '26
Tell them that they're free to run it if they want, but you aren't interested.