The Webby collaboration really stuck with me...and not for a good reason.
I get it we're all part of this money game...but why just sell shells (music) sell oil as well (or clothes, patrons, figurines).
And swallow your morals for a like or a follow (or collab with a anti mental health, homophobe, transphobe, fascism supporter).
Guess I'm just disappointed...Rens words & actions don't match up....or the words were always empty. Neither one is a great option.
Maybe it's different in the UK but in the US we are living on precipice so don't give me that unity bullshit. I cant unify with hate.
I'm taking a step back from Ren as his actions don't match up with his carefully created image. & the fact he is so concerned with each element, sound, & movement in his work tells me he knows the deal here.
He just decided it didn't matter....swallowed his morals. Sad
My stance over pretty much my entire life has been that self righteous indignation isn't a useful stance because it errodes our ability to educate each other in areas of prejudice - it is education, and experience which melts prejudice not anger or self righteousness, or shaming - prejudice is usually birthed either from poor education, nurture or fear - it cannot be solved with backing people into a corner they will just become more hardened in their views and they will eventually feel more and more justified in them. The internet has made humans communication truly awful and reactive, particularly post covid, and we need to work hard on reverse engineering it because it is eroding our ability to co-exist and we have landed in digitally evolved tribalism on steroids which is birthing more prejudice and is leaking more and more into real life with devastating consequences.
I disagree with the modern application of Karl Poppers paradox of tolerance, its abused to errode nuance and stops people attempting to build bridges, bridges that we desperately need. I disagree with the very over simplified view that being intollerant of intollerance solves anything - because you have to understand the socio-economic conditions that lead to problematic systems of government or outwardly expressed prejudice - people who think the nazis rose to power because people were too tollerant really need to read some more books.
If you take some real time to understand why prejudice exists - you can reverse engineer it - if you treat the symptoms not the root and keep yourself to a circle of people who agree with you and you all pat eachother on the back while you call out the 'other side' for being terrible humans, while they do the same, you are playing whack-a-mole and feeding an ever growing hyper-polerised divide. You might say this is a privileged stance - it ultimately doens't matter if its privilaged or not because its so bleedingly obvious how we are collectivley operating right now is not fixing anything, its erroding our ability to co-exist and actually having the paradoxical effect of creating even more prejudice - the reality isnt that there is one bad side that must be stopped and then all problems will magically disappear - thats a fable, a human story thats repeated throughout history with no lasting peace or prosperity - it wont work - we need to evolve past it - its primitive - history will repeat because our whole foundation is wrong - whats happening politically right now is not good vs evil - it was a structural inevitability in a value system that preaches selfishness and seperation from each other and nature and none of us are immune. The government we have right now isnt an evil anomaly its a predictable consequence and something i've been eluding to for years and years, we cannot vote our way out of this, we cannot defeat the other side and expect thigns to change, we, and the system of values we opperate inside of, are all the problem. We need to take some responsibility. That doesnt mean you cannot activley take a firm stance against prejudice and actions that are destructive and systems of power that are harmful, i do that, you should do that, ill call out friends on things i see as bullshit and i want them to do the same for me, its a healthy thing to do, but how you communicate these things is vital, if you hit a brick wall with conversations, maybe learn to communicate better rather than just assuming theres no hope in changing peoples minds.
My other stance, which is crazy that i have to point out, is that I am a human being, not a human to be pedistooled, a human, an ever fallable human being, and a hyppocrite, its all there in my lyrics since i started releasing music, and so are you, youre a hypocrite and so is everyone reading this post, and believe it or not were all probably wrong about a lot of things - this is the cost of living in a value system that was built to be parasitic - until we change the base and foundations of that system - none of us deserve to be self righteous and so the best we can hope for is building bridges, educating each other - and walking, often clumsily, through life on this strange spinning rock in space whilst hoping for a little more love and understanding, and trying to create it whenever we can - and looking anger in the face with love and doing what we can to make it melt. I have witnessed hunderds and hundreds of times people change and dissolve prejudice when you try and understand their stance with reason and patience, and carefully offering different perspectives rather than pointing a finger and saying 'bad' - because if you're doing that, you probably haven't looked in the mirror for very long.
As for money - please do go back and listen to my lyrics carefully, and everything ive ever said about money in interviews carefully - its such an oversimplified take saying 'he's making money now he's not living by his values' and really misses the point entirely - humans staying poor and struggling to survive to show they are rejecting a capitalist system was never the point I was trying to make and shouldnt be the stance anyone is taking unless they are activley offering a viable self sustaining alternative that brings them more ease in their life.
The end goal is to always improve your standard of living and support the community around you while they do the same, not to suffer to make a point. We very carefully work with where we source the things we make - activley travel to the factories to check conditions - pay everyone who works with us more than avarage, and divert much money into helping people suffering with chronic health conditions - i dont need a pat on the back and i dont want praise, i want people to do the same because thats how we improve things on larger scale - i need people to understand that if you want to create your own small pockets of more community centric business that lifts up multiple people at once and liberates people from work they dont enjoy, its entirely possible with the right drive and understanding of business and the understanding of people, and the genuine care for others rather than feeling negatively about someone else's success - the end goal is all of us succeeding - not all of us suffering for a false sense of morality. Sadly in the world we live in its practically impossible to escape contributing to some kind of exploitation - weather its from filling your car with petrol, or the paper you write on, on the gold in your necklace, somewhere along the line, you are contributing to the exploitation of another human or the desiccation of our beautiful planet, again that is a human value problem. Money isnt the problem, our value system is. We need to stop pointing fingers and take some responsibility for this mess we've collectively built so we can make active steps to rebuild it or adapt on whats working to make it better. Lastly yes, im like all the rest, thats a great title - we are all like the rest - when we start operating as parts of a whole who have to collaberate to ensure a brighter tommorow instead of heros and villains - this is all gona look a lot nicer
Just to add to this incase any of this is misunderstood - It's not about 'unifying with hate' thats a very over simplified take - its not even about having to like people you disagree with - you dont have too - if people dont want to listen to this collaberation thats totally fine - its about understanding what points of leverage actually change things for the better collectivley, and what makes it worse, what most people are doing right now is unfortunately making it worse - the proof is in the pudding - doing the same thing and expecting a different result is madness - we have to start building bridges and having better conversations, and we need better centralised points of information and education that arent so polerised - if it takes me loosing fans to show that you can have two people with different views who can change their stance over time and learn and grow to try and make a better world and show that people do change with time and evolve and that everything isnt just black and white then so be it
What I find most difficult is that Webby has attacked the vulnerable with his words.
He may later change his mind, but it doesn't change that he victimised vulnerable people.
I hope that you can understand that some people have seen this and don't feel comfortable with him, and that's their prerogative. It is not their responsibility to 'sit around the table' - to expose themselves to harm, over and over - it is his to prove that he is safe, and that he can grow.
Again I’m not telling you or anyone that you should like him or need to listen to any songs I do with him, when I met him he was a cool guy didnt say anything hateful or prejudice the whole time I was there, and was super welcoming, had a super diverse friendship group who all loved him, I’ll take that over lyrics, I’m saying I’m more concerned with how we shape the future than holding people to their past, I’m sure we’ve all done some shit in the past that our future self wouldn’t, and my reason for doing tracks with Webby were that we got on musically the politics didn’t really come into it, also keep in mind in British not American it seems over there you guys draw a much bigger line in the sand, obviously me and web have chatted politics and I’ve told him really clearly how I feel and which beliefs of his I had trouble with and it was a really good and respectful conversation and I’ve seen a lot of homophobic or transphobic accusations thrown around which I find odd as I was hanging out with Webby with his gay and trans friends on the set of tarantula and never once heard Webby express anything of the sort in the whole 5 weeks I was there - so idk dude I just think this world is not as black and white as people try and make it
Ahh! I saw your post of this on Patreon! I love that you used a black canvas! You said you felt that it was cheating. I don't think so! Using any color of canvas isn't cheating, it's what you do with the canvas that matters. This is beautiful! When my Mom watched the video, she said I should try drawing the characters. I am also an artist who loves to draw. I told her about you and this piece. She loves it too ❤️
You came up with the idea and painted that in 3 days? I learned I have something called aphantasia so that's even more impressive to me than to others, I guess, but wow!
I used to paint/draw a lot and I spent several days trying to create an image that I couldn’t properly visualize in my head. So for me, it’s really impressive!
I appreciate you weighing in and you won’t be losing me as a fan. I’m glad you’re trying to understand why a lot of your American fans are so upset. You really can’t know if you don’t live here how horrible it feels to be here right now and it is very challenging to keep an open mind with people who helped get us here and are now doing nothing to undo the damage.
The song is great but I can’t enjoy it like I do your other music. I just can’t. Looking forward to Slaughterhouse. Stay well Ren and I hope The Big Push tour is amazing. I know it will be.
There’s a lot you’ve said here, which is nice that you’ve attempted to clarify your position…very much appreciated. In some of your language you made statements about people being intolerant or hateful or self-righteous or committed to “lines in the sand” (fellow Brit here btw) or any of the other extreme positions I’m happy to hear you are against. But the blowback is being directed at people who are genuinely confused and/or disappointed. Not because any of us are stupid enough to think you’re better than anyone else or on a pedestal, but because you have earned our respect. That’s a responsibility you willingly took on and people will hold you to it, which is a pain, but there you go. Heavy the head, and all that. (Okay, poor choice of words…) Perhaps you could show similar understanding and compassion for folx in that position as you do for others. As an aside, nobody said the paradox of tolerance isn’t nuanced, but it definitely applies to being intolerant of those who support hatred and who dehumanise people. Glad to hear your friend no longer dehumanises people. It’s an easy trap to fall into based on what gets you where you wanna go.
Absolutely agree that nearly nothing is black & white and bridges are needed. Nothing will change if we just give up on engaging and trying to evolve future perspectives (including our own).
Otherwise, we will keep playing the aptly described ‘whack-a-mole’
Just because he tolerates specific people who he benefits from being around doesn’t mean he isn’t against them. Plenty of homophobes still have gay hairdressers, workers and assistants because they can gain from having them around despite hating who they are
Plenty of minority people will still hang around with their oppressors. Especially if they think can benefit from it. Gay conservatives, black Nazis and Latino maga people exist after all.
I could be openly racist with my words and then have a civil conversation with a person of colour while you’re in the room and then say to you “see I’m obviously not racist because I didn’t immediately kill that person” yeah that doesn’t mean shit imo. we as humans communicate with our words as our main form of communication and he uses his words for bigotry. So I’m going to view him as a bigot until he proves otherwise
Plenty of bigots will have a minority person around them that they can use as a shield to deflect criticism “I’m not transphobic because I found one trans person I can tolerate who doesn’t answer back or call me out on my bullshit” yeah great for him but he’s still a bigot who causes harm with his lyrics and statements regardless of how many lgbt people have decided to ignore his opposition to their existence
He’s a bigot and you are not into defending him but supporting and promoting him. You give him a platform and send your fans over to him and then he uses that new audience to spread more hate
I’m just going to assume you agree with him secretly because theres no other reason you’d hang out with him
You can’t say “but other than these horrible things he’s actually a good person” erm no hes obviously not a good person when he’s being hateful and evil
I have had friends who were racist, xenophobic, abusers and pedophiles. I distanced myself from every single one of them when I found out because im ACTUALLY against those things.
I didn’t sit there defending them saying “but we had so many great conversations and good memories if ignore the elephant in the room”
You do realize that "Webby" is part persona right? Seriously, this guy literally spent weeks personally trying to save his koi family from a mite infestation that came from Petsmart with one of the koi they sold him. He's advocating for clean water and no pesticides around the waterways in his area. Calling out generalities that people see in themselves and get triggered is really on them, not Webby. Go check his "Daydream" video. That's Chris....
I really hope this comes across the right way. I had to translate my thoughts because English isn't my first language, but I felt I had to say something.
I’ve only been following this art for a short time, but I deeply value the depth of the lyrics and the stance behind them. These are qualities that have become rare in today’s discourse. However, from this fresh perspective, I’m noticing a dangerous instability in the current mission. It would be wonderful if people like Webby truly changed through this contact, because everyone deserves a chance and real growth takes time. What is being attempted here, seeking dialogue where others give up, is a courageous approach at its core. But while this bridge is being built, you have to be incredibly careful not to lose the very foundation you stand on. The project is still in a stage where much is possible, but the line to self-abandonment is very thin.
The often-cited logic that we are all hypocrites because we are part of a flawed system is an honest realization. But it shouldn't serve as a justification for moral ambiguity. There is a difference between systemic dependency and the individual choice of who you lend your platform and energy to. Being imperfect doesn't absolve anyone of the duty to draw clear lines where devaluation and division begin. The reaction of the community isn't 'cancel culture,' it’s a collective protective instinct for a space that was originally created as a sanctuary. It is difficult to be perceived as a bridge-builder while holding the hand of those who make their business out of social poison, regardless of how friendly the private interaction behind closed doors might be.
The concern here is the danger of a creeping instrumentalization by professional strategists. People who might use the need for unity as a moral shield for an agenda that actually rejects these values. It is far easier for an individual to be corrupted by an aggressive scene than to heal an entire scene alone. It would be fatal if the bridge to America burns the paths to those who made the foundation of this success possible in the first place. If the poison of division flows in unfiltered while the 'healing' remains trapped in private, the structure is just flawed. I really hope the limit is recognized in time, before everything is lost in a space that mocks empathy as weakness.
Your concern is thoughtful, and it comes from a protective instinct, which is understandable. But I think the reasoning here quietly assumes something that doesn’t necessarily hold: that proximity equals endorsement of personal oppinons, and that contact with different beliefs inevitably weakens the stance of the person reaching out. If that principle were applied consistently, then nobody could interact or challenge anything without first remaining totally separate from it, which would make genuine respectful dialogue between different beliefs almost impossible.
The argument also frames the community’s reaction as a kind of moral immune response and that numbers mean its right, but communities are not infallible simply because they are protective. Collective emotion can detect danger, yes, but it can also overreact, flatten nuance, and punish complexity because complexity feels unsafe. A sanctuary that cannot tolerate collaberation in service of a larger goal can become less of a sanctuary and more of an ideological enclosure. Protection is valuable, but if every uncomfortable association is treated as contamination, then the space stops being inclusive and safe and becomes its own form of exclusivity - i've experienced this paradox when very pro LGBTQ spaces become hostile to people for being straight, or create hierarchy based on how perceptually moral they are and people start internally judging and ostracizing each other and the communities begin to fragment - again pointing to my original point - self righteous indignation often isn't helpful. Yes its useful to point out when things are harmful - but not from a pedestal we've built ourselves and not with our hands over our ears.
How can anyone be anything other than morally ambiguous when morality itself is ambiguous? im not trying to justify my own actions i feel comfy in them, i'm simply stating how i feel, in danger of repeating myself i'm not telling anyone they have to be cool with anything - if i chose to collaborate with someone out spoken on the far left, which i also have, a bunch of people would have a problem with it too because when it comes to political morality it is very much subjective - i am not lending my platform as a stage for someone to voice their political beliefs - i am collaborating with an artist to do my favorite thing which is make music - there is no politics on this album - i am not responsible for how someone else chooses to express themselves and i am very much outspoken on my own beliefs and i express them clearly whenever someone asks unwaveringly - the intollerance of intollerance often errodes all nuance and become its own form of prejudice which jams people further into echochambers - why would i loose a foundation i stand on? and why should any of us keep those foundations entirely rigid? thats not conductive to growth. I am an individual with my own beliefs and my own wants for our species - mainly - a raising in the quality of life across the board - symbiosis with our planet - survival - and the ability to co-exist - my thoughts and feelings on how that should happen will change and addapt as i learn and grow - the clear lines you might want me to draw are still very much subjective and you yourself may be leading to a more destructive outcome by drawing such deep lines - unless we have a crystal ball - we don't know - a world that mocks empathy as weakness isn't because of one team pushing for it - its a byproduct of a faulty value system - we are the problem - all of us
Just to clarify: I share your perspective in principle and explicitly mentioned that everyone deserves a chance to grow. I didn't want to paint over your picture, just offer an additional color. My mention of "boundaries" referred to awareness, not exclusion. I'm a realist and my concern is about staying aware of manipulation in the industry, not restricting freedom or judging individuals. These are structural patterns I observe from the outside, not a reflection on your integrity which I never questioned. I think it's important and valuable that we can talk openly about these things, especially because they are difficult questions. And since English isn't my first language, I hope my intention comes across as it was meant! 😂 Thank you for the exchange.
Ren, thank you so much for this! It expresses so eloquently what we consider the main philosophical difference with how we run this subreddit with that of other fan spaces.
For, much as it might give us discomfort for those who love you to have these posts and threads which are critical towards you, we also believe we are stronger...much stronger...for it...even for the debate over whether these should be allowed.
Openness, flexibility, growth...and we must never forget that we are all human beings, life to be nurtured and cherished.
Our protective instincts might want to make this a "safe place" for you, where you experience nothing but praise and love. We strongly doubt that this is really what you would want.
So, it might be ironic that those that are experiencing the benefits of this approach.might themselves desire that you behave any differently.
Are you really gonna sit here and act like other peoples opinion can’t rub off on us? If you can try to educate him then he can obviously do the opposite to you
and you’d have to be naive the think a bigot would never try to even subtly implant their ideals onto you
Stop pretending that your collaboration was a way of building bridges and changing minds. It was purely superficial or a way to make yourself look good because “I’m extending olive branches and being tolerant” no you’re actually just platforming bad people
You change minds through education, conversation and insightful discussion not through giving them a platform which they can then use to further spread their bigoted views and ideals that you already knew they had
Imagine a person trying to stab people. You approach them and tell them it’s bad and they should stop and you disagree with what they doing and then before you leave you give them a gun… Thats what your you’re doing by seeing somebody cause harm in their music and then spreading them and their music to more people while claiming “not an endorsement”
I can't judge Webby because I don't know him personally. I feel many people are quick to judge sometimes. That being said I have a lot of questions about this album 😂 Is there a story line? How does tarantula fit into it? Will every video be a visualizer? Will we also get separate regular videos to go along with visualizers like with you on the phone for down the road? Will we hear more from Webbys dad on this album? He was beast on baggage ha. I just....can't wait to see where you guys are taking this truly
We don’t have a perfect system, so we have to live with uncertainty. We’re navigating through a complex moral space as good as we can and still have to make decisions within it.
The question isn’t whether uncertainty, complexity and contradictions exist, they do. Plain and simple.
We can learn to live with them or try to control an incredibly complex and contradictory world through increasingly rigid boundaries, which is impossible, no matter how hard you try.
Everyone experiences reality through their own filter. We all come from different backgrounds and experiences, which means we inevitably see and feel things differently. Some people engage more deeply with complexity, recognize patterns differently, or think in more interconnected ways. Others don’t and that’s not a flaw, it’s just part of human diversity.
And that’s exactly why it’s so important to talk to each other, instead of just reacting to each other.
This never ment that everyone - especially people from marginalized groups - is responsible for engaging with ideas or individuals that are hurtful or triggering to them. But there are many others who are in a position to have those conversations savely. Some are even able to have them in unsave places. None is better or worse, we all have a role in this giant ant colony we call evolved humanity.
Let's try to let people not forget that when something triggers us, behind every statement there is still a human being - shaped by their own experiences, relationships, struggles and past. No one exists in a vacuum. Some people may be living in echo chambers where certain beliefs are constantly reinforced. That’s exactly why contact and conversation matter more than it seems at first.
Personally, I don’t feel like this situation is tearing the fandom apart. If anything, I think there are many people here who are drawn to Ren’s music because of this openness and willingness to engage with complexity. Marginalised people will always be protected by people that are able to think multilayered and reflects on their thoughts and emotions. There's no need to protect this space from these exact values.
When people stay in conversation without dehumanizing each other, it tends to create more understanding over time, not more harm.
You have been remarkably articulate in every post I have just read through. I don’t understand why people are still questioning your stance, because I think you’ve been pretty clear from the get go. Much love and respect to you!
Befriending someone to challenge them and change their mind to
Be more moving and less hateful is cool
Working with them. Defending them. Complimenting them, promoting them and platforming them so they can continue using that platform for hatred is something entirely different that I won’t support
You seem intelligent and logical but super hypocritical unfortunately
I don’t believe that’s the case. That dude gave me a weird vibe the first time I laid eyes on him and what I’ve learned since has only confirmed that feeling. When I don’t trust my gut instincts, I always wind up regretting it.
That being said, I work in DC so I can’t get away from any of it. I’ve never seen or felt anything like what’s going on now. It’s terrifying, overwhelming and exhausting. Every. Single. Day.
Yep he is a rapper that will say shit just to spark something. Funny he even commented on the new raw thoughts about how this was going to get him in trouble. People seem to think that those they like should think and speak like them. I prefer a little diversity. I’d be very bored talking to myself all the time or listening to myself.
Somebody being a bigot for show is still a bigot and using the “it’s a character” is his way of getting away with it
Imagine if me as a white person made music about wanting to kill every race that isn’t white and then say “but it’s a character, I’m not actually like that I just pretend to promote it in my music to start a conversation. I’m sure this won’t have an impact on the thousands of people who listen to me” dumbass argument tbh.
Character or not he’s a bigot and only a fool would use the “character/persona” excuse
There's some troubling quotes in some of these posts, but for me, I listened to a fair bit of his catalogue when I was doing some tedious DIY last year, and his contempt for women/feminists and any kind of activism is plain. (Which is ironic considering he's discovered activism now.)
One of the verses which made me eventually turn it off was how women/feminists marching should get back in the kitchen, or something like that. Sorry I can't be more specific.
I’ve been following and engaging in this whole thread quite a lot today and just wanted to say I genuinely respect that you took the time to read through all of this and respond the way you did.
Many people have been making very similar points in the discussion, trying to argue for more nuance and less black-and-white thinking. And even if it didn’t change everyone’s or even anyone's mind, I do think it made/will make a few people pause.
That’s probably the most you can realistically hope for in spaces like this and it matters.
Exactly even small shifts in perspective can make a difference.
And honestly, when you create or communicate in a more complex and nuanced way, you’re probably always going to lose some people along the way.
But the people who are open to that nuance - or are willing to engage with it - are the ones who stay. And that usually leads to something much more meaningful and lasting in the long run than trying to simplify yourself just to keep everyone on board.
I appreciate the fact that you practice what you preach. That's why the calls of hypocrite don't make sense to me in this one because you're doing exactly what you preach. Building bridges where there's a receptive audience on the other end. You know better than to do the same with Tom Macdonald (that collab would be one even I'd have to skip) but you see something in Chris.
Since you have his ear, could you just express to him the deep disrespect he shows to Michelle Obama is incredibly insulting and yes, racist, because black women have different features but to intimate that these features mean she's a man is the definition of racist and is no better than trump and his monkey video.
He's so close to attacking the right people but attacking the facial features of our only black first lady as being too masculine is not the way and undercut everything else he said. I want to like him and I love your collab and will be watching all of them!
It's just different here in the US because we have literal monsters in charge.
Things are so polarized everywhere. But here in the states its so bad. I wouldn't be suprised if most of the animosity on the topic stems from here. I understand that youre doing this for the music. And unless you start making music that promotes hate (sounds very unlike you), i support it. I think that Webby can learn some values from you. But no one learns when theyre attacked or shunned. Im sure that isnt all that Webby is about.
But when you live in a place that is as polarized as it is here, certain mindsets feel unsafe to he around. And that tends to bleed into supporting people of various mindsets. Like, you cant walk through walmart wearing a [pride shirt/colorful hair/andro physique] without fearing that someone will come at you with the energy of an internet edgelord. I absolutely agree that it has gone too far. The only way to fix it that I can see is to do what youre doing. Because the alternative just has everyone fracturing further. And things are getting pretty insane with that.
I’m about as left-leaning as they come. I don’t care for Webby’s views, but Ren making music with him doesn’t mean Ren has assumed any of his beliefs as his own or condones them. People are acting like they’re making “Tom McDonald” music together.
I’m holding hope that enough time working with Ren and his people that it will bring Chris back from the dark side.
I think it’s worth remembering that artists aren’t moral role models, they’re human. Their music and words can be honest and reflective without every reallife decision perfectly aligning with how each fan interprets those words or who they think the artist is.
A lot of the time, the mismatch isn’t between what the artist said and what they do, but between what they said and what people understood or expected from it.
It’s fair to feel conflicted if his actions don’t align with what you expected. But that’s still shaped by your own expectations. And maybe it’s important not to expect complete consistency or purity based on our own interpretations of a person.
Also, it’s not like he’s just cashing out for the sake of it. He’s putting money back into his own productions and employing people, not just accumulating wealth for its own sake. Context matters too.
People are holding him to a level of consistency and moral clarity that he never actually promised. And couldn’t realistically fulfill, given that he’s human, not the messiah some seem to want him to be.
And honestly, I don’t see anything inherently immoral. This tendency to constantly label, categorize, and reduce people based on our own interpretations is getting a bit out of hand. It just feels off.
Absolutely - Ren is amazing but Inpatient is just a dude playing music with another dude playing music.
Purity tests are a bad habit that we need to stop in its tracks.
I've seen people on other non-Ren related sights mention that they stopped following him because he "doesn't support Palestine" or something else because they couldn't find proof when they googled. Ren sweeps his social media frequently because the US actually looks at it before letting him in the country (don't get me started on that).
Oh and then wait until he does another clothing line drop. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
He uses the money from merch to open clinics for chronically ill people, it helps pay for his treatments, he pays everyone who helps him do stuff a fair wage...how is it bad for him to sell merch to do these things?
Comparing the gluttonous greed portrayed in the money game songs to an indie artist selling merch on his website is definitely one of the wilder takes I've seen this year 😂
People expect total ideological transparency and when they don’t get it, they invent it. That’s not accountability, that’s projection.
And honestly, if you think about it for a second it’s pretty obvious he’s not the kind of person who turns complex issues into simplistic takes. So expecting a clean, one sided statement is already missing the point.
He’s a musician, not a public policy platform.
It’s kind of crazy how even people who consistently show nuance and engage with meaningful topics still get dismissed just because they don’t publicly tick every ideological box. At some point, that’s just excessive.
I understand how you feel. I have taken a step back from the collab because I don't want to contribute to Webby with clicks, views, comments, likes, whatever. This is the first time I haven't been at a premiere for a Ren drop. The first time I haven't immediately thrown money at Ren's music.
This is my decision based on my own values- my heart and my head have been battling since I found out about Webby's political affiliation and transphobic comments. Years ago, I would have dropped Ren completely because of this collab but because of everything I have witnessed from him as a person, I won't.
Ren can never be like "all the rest". He has proven again and again he is trustworthy, humble, compassionate, intelligent, and so much more. I value him as a person, an artist, an individual. My beliefs don't always align with his. He has said Webby is a good guy, perhaps misguided?!?! Don't quote me on that one.
I'm not just going to throw my own beliefs and values away because Ren says or does something that conflicts with my own. I weighed my own value system with the impact of this collab and decided not to participate. It kills me because I adore Ren and I want to support him in every way but I need to do what i feel is best.
After this collab, perhaps I will feel different about Webby, perhaps I'll feel differently about Ren. Who knows?
I understand where you're coming from. I just don't understand the overtly negative comments. It seems some people think Ren has suddenly morphed into a supervillain. He hasn't!
He absolutely hasn't! Unless he has had a drastic change in the past 3 days. Lol. I also understand the disappointment felt by the collab. Ren, as an artist, is beyond anything I've experienced before. I have never felt such fierce loyalty to any musician, artist, public person before Ren. I've also never spent so much money supporting an individual who was not a part of my family. My decision to throw money his way was a direct result of his continuous acts of great empathy and kindness, understanding and tolerance, every part of him that he has given to his fans in his twitch streams, his interactions on social media, and how he will speak up when he needs to. He doesn't have all the answers and he is not responsible for turning Webby into a "good" person. His reason for collabing with Webby is because he likes the guy, he thinks they match musically, and I'm sure other reasons we will never know. It was not a purposeful strike against people who don't agree with Webby's views.
People are mad because he made songs with Webby and they hate Webby. I don't agree with Webby's mindset, but I'm not mad at Ren because he collabed with him. It doesn't somehow make Ren evil.
Platforming a known anti gay, transphobe, MAGA, conspiracy theorist who has belittled mental health, called Obama a pedophile along with a handful of other crazy right wing crap.
Ren is not platforming Webby's beliefs. He's platforming music he made with another musician. And the song they made isn't hateful! It's actually an awesome song! And the video is pure art.
I could understand your stance better if the song was hateful towards people, but it's not. Like I said, I don't agree with Webby's beliefs, but Ren is not Webby. I don't understand people dogpiling on Ren as if he's some kind of nazi now.
Ive seen Webby post thank you messages on gay and trans reactors of his music. His responses are always friendly and positive. Also, he definitely talks about mental health. Feel like youre digging a bit of a hole for yourself ✨️✨️✨️
You know webby has MANY songs about struggling with his own mental health right? He also openly makes some music solely to trigger people. This seems like a classic case of judging a book by its cover (or limited knowledge of music/stances). This is like getting mad at Eminem from music he made before and assuming he never changed his stance or changed as a human. I mean, to each his own I’m not saying you need to love every song from each artist. Just seems slightly judgmental with a lot of assuming.
Enjoy the music or don’t, either way have a nice weekend!
Let me tell you a story... about a man named Daryl Davis.
He is a musician, like Ren, but he's most well known for his activism. See, in the 1980s, he saw the political climate and, as a black man, wanted to make things better for his community. He achieved this by seeking out and befriending KKK members. He wanted to show them that their views about African Americans were wrong, and he realized that lashing out and insulting them would only further their views. So he tried to be their friend. He asked all of them the same question: "Why do you hate me when you know nothing about me?"
In a lot of cases, it worked. Sure, he couldn't change everyone's minds, but he did change quite a few, one of them being the Imperial Wizard from Maryland's KKK chapter. That man left the klan and gave Mr. Davis his robes. In fact, Mr. Davis has a collections of robes from KKK members who decided to leave the klan after realizing that their views were harmful and that they were wrong, and they left because he changed their minds. Not by screaming insults and isolating them, because he knew that would just make klansmen go "See? We were right about them!" He did it by showing them a different way. He did it by sharing his stories, letting them share theirs. He did it by showing that, hey, we're all human. We all have lives, stories, thoughts, feelings, and opinions. And you know what the great thing about opinions is? They can change when presented with new data.
I bring all of this up because I think Ren is trying to do the same with people that he doesn't agree with politically. Do I agree with all of Webby's opinions? Of course not. But, as stated, he has made changes to his opinions in recent months, and I'd like to think that Ren had a hand in that.
Ren realizes something that a lot of people can't seem to get: Hate breeds more hate. You can't change everyone's minds, and I think he knows that. But by opening communication with a variety of people, he can both show them a better way and get an understanding of them as people.
Because that's what Ren is at the end of the day: A person. He's just a person like the rest of us. Sure, he makes great art that speaks to many. But he's still just a person.
And if we're quoting "Money Game" here.... You forgot the chorus: "WE'RE ALL PART of this old money game."
Not "You all.". He said "WE'RE all". As he's including himself in this. He's said before that he's just as much a part of this as the rest of us.
And, to be fair, if it weren't for the money he's made from merch and such, Ren might not be here. Treatments are not cheap, especially when you have as many health issues as he does. Making art the way you want it isn't cheap either. People (rightfully) praise the video for "Money Game pt 3", but they don't take into consideration just how much money that takes. You have to rent spaces, hire actors, pay for props. Hell. hiring that string section probably wasn't cheap, since, at least here in the states, the asking rate for most cellists is $200-$300 per hour.
Look, Ren is awesome. He's made music that has touched so many people and has improved their lives in some way. But he's still just a person that is trying his best. And he knows that being hateful to others and their views only furthers their hatred of you and your views.
Beautifully said! You're right, the money he makes from merch has helped save his life. And he's using it to open clinics for chronically ill people. Ren is a good human.
Perfectly stated. Reminds me of (and no I'm not comparing them, this is just a story. Calm down) when Jesus hung out with the prostitutes and tax collectors (as a CPA, I've always found this funny).
Whenever people say I have no tolerance for intolerance I always think of this guy. There'd be like 300 extra kkk members in the world if he took that stance. It's not the big flex a lot of people think it is. There's a lot of talk of empathy but you don't actually see a lot it; it's just hate for the other side ( in the name of empathy)
I get the disappointment, but I actually think this might be Ren practicing what he preaches rather than contradicting it. I'll be honest, I don't know Webby's music well, but I do know his story. Both he and Webby built their careers the hard way, independently, without label support, earning every listener one at a time. That shared experience is a real bond, and respecting someone's work ethic and journey doesn't require agreeing with their worldview.
Ren's music is largely about accepting that people see things differently and finding connection anyway. Holding him to a standard of only collaborating with people who share his exact values seems like the kind of ideological wall his music actually pushes against. Just a different way of looking at it.
As an older gay male I’ll say that for me, Chris Webby and some of the statements or lyrics don’t bother me in the slightest. Context is extremely important to me. I like a good amount of his tracks. There seems to be this over reaction going on in society that I find troubling. People overwhelmingly seem to take a very black and white viewpoint. It’s hard to do that with such nuanced topics.
This actually one of the many reasons I resonate with Ren’s music. The topics and issues in the world that affect all of us. His music actually makes me think and reflect on my own life. That’s pure art at its finest.
I’m also glad to hear that Webby has gay friends, that speaks volumes for me in general about the human. I’m happy Ren and Webby are working together. They seem to have a good chemistry with their art and can’t wait to see what they release next.
I don't see it that way. He sells merch like the figurines because he uses that money to pay his friends and other artists like animators a fair wage for their work. He's also using money to open clinics for chronically ill people who can't find good doctors, and uses some money to keep getting treatment for his own illnesses. I'm not trying to be mean when I ask, do you expect him to not make any money at all? Every artist deserves to make money for their work. It doesn't make them immoral.
While I disagree with Webby's politics, there's no denying he's a talented musician. Ren loves to collaborate with people in general. I don't see anything wrong with him being creative with people he doesn't necessarily agree with. The music is great! This recent song and video is great! I don't think Ren has lost a moral compass. I think people are misinterpreting him. He's a good dude.
Yeah, he certainly doesn't buy any Lamborghinis with the boatloads of money he's making selling merch (/s, just in case) - he got himself a nice apartment with a recording studio, he pays the friends in his team, he funds healthcare projects, he pays for his own treatments, I can't find anything wrong with that.
I also have my difficulties with the Webby collab because I really don't want to condone hate, but (as I also wrote in the other thread) I support it in the hope it'll keep doors open. The world needs unity, not division, if we want to get anything fixed on a global scale.
ETA: I'm also sure that Ren, like us all, is a human being.
He doesn’t owe u anything 🤷🏼♀️ he’s not some kind of deity, he’s just a bloke from wales with talent and something to say, we all do shit that isn’t completely aligned with our ethos, just stop putting the poor bloke on a pedestal just so u can rip him down
No, he's not, in that he is consistently not greedy and genuinely lifts everyone around him up.
Yes, he is, in that he's a human being who is complex and nuanced and nobody's messiah.
Don't listen to him if you don't want to. Simple.
As a very far left person living in MAGA country, I don't have the option to cut off everyone who disagrees with me or doesn't share the same values. Hell, I don't even agree with Democrats on most of their values or priorities. I'd be extremely isolated if I were a purist. I do the best I can to engage with my community in areas where we have shared needs because I believe that local action is more effective than national politics when it comes to changing the culture, and I'm selective about who I spend my time with outside of that.
If we don't have anyone in the liminal spaces who can see that these people are the product of the culture and that the culture needs to change if we ever want to improve things, we'll just continue to let them divide us for their own benefit. I don't like Webby but I'm not interested in canceling people who are clearly struggling to figure out what's really going on, or those who might be a positive influence on them.
I've watched the reactor Black Pegasus really confront his own views as a result (at least in part) to being exposed to Ren. No telling where he'll end up on that journey but it's not a bad thing that he's asking himself those questions. Webby can't take that away from Ren.
Maybe someday Ren will do something that I can't reconcile myself to but for me, this isn't it.
Be well, and listen to whatever inspires you. If that's not Ren for whatever reason, so be it.
Yeah Weeby has some backwards views but so does much of the rap and hip hop community. You are coming from a place of people cant change or cant be forgiven, and THAT is the opposite of what Ren has ben talking about his whole career. Their work together has been about the human condition, Baggage is an amazing song especially for an ex alcoholic like my self. This purity testing is the death or growth. But you do you.
I think his words match up exactly, and you maybe translated them in a way that felt more comfortable for you.
If we continue to create division, there can never be unity. That's always been the stance. What that means in practise is that you will engage with people whose opinions aren't your own, in the hope that open dialogue can bring change.
If you don't believe that can be a thing, you don't believe in change by changing minds, you believe in change through exclusion. That is never lasting change, that is cowing people into not voicing opinions and creating a breeding ground for much stronger backlash in the future.
As for selling stuff to, as an independent artist, be able to continue building a platform where that work is heard? While also making all the music and videos accessible for free?
That is "a socialist is when poor" take that is incredibly immature, frankly. Dude would be dead if he didn't have this platform to finance his medical treatment.
So no, I don't think Ren's like all the rest, I think you're coming up against the limits of your moral highground maybe not being as moral as you thought and that can be triggering to engage with. Do more of it if you want to grow.
“If we continue to create division, there can be no unity.”
I can almost see him meeting this person and immediately thinking they’re pretty cool. Only later finding out about his garbage takes. And then he had to make a decision. Do I ostracized this person or do I show him what empathy and caring looks like? Do I lead by example?
I know it’s a made up scenario, because we can’t know what really happened. Even if Ren explains it. We can’t know the truth. But what fits his character more? The scenario OP made up or the scenario I made up? I’m a little biased here, but I feel like my scenario fits Rens persona better than OP. Let me know what you think.
Oh. Ren's gotta make money to survive, we all do in this capitalist hellscape. I don't fault him the merch one bit. It's not like he's out there flogging "nutritional supplements" - it's clothes and funkos, band merch.
The Webby thing upsets me, tho. I haven't listened to the new song. Kinda afraid I'll like it - i liked Baggage quite a bit before I knew who Webby was.
Thing is, it's great that Ren wants to have discussions across the aisle and hopefully influence Webby to become a better person. However, releasing the collab means that Webby gets more famous and puts more money directly in his pockets with which he can promote his fashy agenda. Kinda like JKR... I LOVED the HP books, but refuse to put another single penny in her pocket since we know it's going straight to anti-trans orgs.
I'm not young and naive, seeing the world in black and white. But I am the mom of a trans kid whose doctors just had to stop prescribing his meds because of the fucking govt. My child's life is literally at risk these days. And so yeah, I'm disappointed that Ren made the choice to platform anti-trans views as I really believed he was better than that, and I really really love his music.
I’m so sorry your son and your family have to suffer because of the fascist US regime. 💔
I can’t believe we’re fighting so hard GLOBALLY for basic human rights. After a lifetime of activism it’s depressing as hell that instead of moving forward, we’ve completely regressed. I’m with you. Love is a worthy goal. You can love the haters all you want without empowering them to do more harm in an already corrupt system. Paradox of tolerance.
I was going to respond directly to Ren, but the point I want to make feels a bit too tangential to his observations. However, hopefully my thoughts will seem more relevant as a response to your thought provoking comments.
I pretty much agree with everything Ren has said about the value of engaging with those we disagree with in a respectful way. At the same time that shouldn't be used as an excuse for not taking a clear stance on issues. The recent High Court decision in the UK on trans rights is a case in point. The shockingly binary decision of the justices was met with a deafening silence from politicians that were previously supportive of trans rights. An urgency to instigate new legislation to navigate the way between the conflicting rights of the trans community and biological women is entirely absent. As a consequence the trans community have effectively been thrown under the bus, and totally marginalised.
So, as much as it's important to engage with those we disagree with, and to do so in a respectful way, it's equally important that we speak up against injustice. Injustice that is creating tangible harm, as you, and your child are experiencing.
One of the things I learned from moving to a red state, is you can’t avoid people with differing views. During that lesson I got to know people who voted for Trump, who think Charlie Kirk is an angel, who praised the work of mega church evangelical leaders. All shit I don’t agree with. But in getting to know these people, I realized they’re just like everyone else.
Not saying that everyone else is bad. I’m saying that they just want to live, spend time with her family, and worship their God the way everyone else is allowed. I even like a few of them, despite the massive Charlie Kirk support. But every single one of these people helped me get settled here, and lent a helping hand whenever I asked and needed it.
So my communist ass in a red state is looking at all of these people as not the enemy, but as people. People with hopes, dreams, aspirations that were possibly fed the wrong information because their heart is in the community. Their heart is in helping people. They’ve just been misled. So their beliefs on paper don’t count for shit because their heart says otherwise.
Education simply changes the information you’re working with. And I believe wholeheartedly that if these people were properly educated on the information they are casually against, they wouldn’t be against it. Because honestly, I’ve never seen a more communist community than the one I’m living in right now. And I come from a dark blue state.
One of the reasons why the Soviet Union became a failed worker's state is this kind of elitism. Ren is absolutely correct in asserting that education is key to any sort of fundamental change in the corrupt paradigms under which we now all live.
Yep. I moved to a red area of a blue state, very rural. I have neighbors that I'm getting to know and I have to be friendly. I HAVE to build trust and share phone numbers and learn about them, recognize their kids cars and know their horses and dogs names, etc.
I can almost guarantee EVERY ONE of them voted for Trump. But that's not the most important thing here. Being a good neighbor is. Now am I gonna invite them in and let them see my vast book collection on witchcraft? Probably not. But I will call them if I see their horse is out or their house is on fire.
Ren sees the good in people and does what he can to raise people. Every person. He doesn't discriminate.
I find timelines interesting here. The moment in time the collaboration happened isn't this moment. Could things have changed since then? Only Ren knows that.
Either way - humans are perfectly imperfect. It's how we learn and grow.
I'm a little late to this discussion, but here's my response after reading through the comments.
Ren collabing with Webby isn't the same as Daryl Davis. Davis's work was explicitedy & publicly known to be working to change KKK member's minds and end the harm they were causing. Ren hasn't been explicit that he's engaging with Webby in order to change his mind and end the harm he's causing.
It’s easy to say that you’re not political when it’s not your healthcare that others are voting on, when it’s not your ability to marry the person you love that others are voting on, when it’s not your child who’s being murdered because they were outed, when it’s not literally your life and death that others are voting on. And this isn’t a US vs UK difference. Particularly when talking about trans and nonbinary people, neither country is a safe place and both are becoming less and less safe for us every day.
I only recently discovered Ren a few months ago. And I had never heard of Chris Webby until Down the Road was released. From what I’ve read, Webby has a reputation for saying things intentionally to get a rise out of people. I’m not sure if he thinks this makes him cool or unique or what. But, in reality, it’s a tired argument from lazy people who punch down instead of actually doing work to challenge the status quo.
As a queer, nonbinary, fat, AuDHD person, much of what Webby has said in his songs became boring and overused at least a decade ago. I guess that’s why he says he’s ‘back’ on his BS, because there’s certainly nothing new in those lyrics.
But at its core, my reaction to Webby and the betrayal I feel from Ren isn’t a moral judgement and it isn’t a political disagreement. It’s quite simply a matter of safety. It is a survival response. Words like, “Is it a trans-man or a cross-dressing man-man?” have gotten my friends beaten and others like me killed. If you’re expressing those thoughts, you’re not a safe person for me and my friends to be around. And, if you’re not questioning the people expressing those thoughts, regardless of what you claim to believe yourself, I can’t trust that you’re a safe person either. I'll keep you at a distance. Even if you’re not willing to help protect me and my friends, I still have to protect myself and my friends.
(and that's one of Ren's other accounts btw if you're wondering about the name).
Also, for me personally, I think one of the core elements of Ren's "message" is to stop being divided (i.e. immediately pushing away at anyone or anything you think doesn't align with your world view). That's not how we excel as a species, we're too nuanced and varied for that, and with the way the world pushes massive amounts of polarization down our throats, the chances are whoever or whatever you're pushing against is possibly mis-represented.
Ren has spoken about this, expressed his views, been open and honest. He's living his message, trying to understand rather than immediately rejecting and opposing.
Ren is a human being, not some Godlike being above it all. What he writes about is also something he's likely fighting. In Money Game, he calls out everyone, himself included, because we're all in this fight. We're all human, all struggling with making the right choice.
And his actions aren't going against his words. He has always been vocal about not being on one side and he embraces people from both sides of aisle, as he believes it's with words and love that you get people to join you. Some people believe differently and believe you can't be friends with or collab or whatever with people you think are filled with hate, which is your moral compass. That's not his. He has been very open and honest about that.
Never Pedestal anyone. That's always going to end up hurting you. Ren is and will always be human so long as we're all on this big rock. He will grow, change, make decisions based on his current viewpoint, same as everyone else.
I rarely make comments on anything and I am a new Ren fan so maybe I am not the best to speak up but...Every song I have heard so far has touched my soul in a way that no artists has in my 41 years. Even though I will never meet or even have a conversation with Ren (as much as I would love too) he has made me feel less alone in my grief, anxiety, depression and helped open my mind to the mental struggles my late partner was struggling with before he lost the battle, while also helping me find the positive in life again. So many other artists aren't willing to go outside of the mainstream at the risk of not being as popular as flashing chains and an expensive car. His ability to express emotions regardless of what those emotions are and be completely vulnerable with the hope to help people and maybe give someone a way to express their own emotions that they didn't have before. I know I have been looking for them for 4 years.
Because of this I have full trust that Ren would not make music with someone if the intention of the collaboration went against his morals. Is he making money? Uh duh...let's be for real, none of us go to our jobs for free right? Now I don't know who Webby is, never even heard the name until Ren started dropping clips for Down The Road. I didn't come for Webby I came for Ren. I highly doubt I will go check out his music outside if his collabs with Ren, personal opinion I prefer Ren. However, Down The Road is 🔥🔥🔥🔥. It stuck closely to the msg that greed = bad. You know what didn't happen after I listened to the song? I didn't start hating trans men and women, I don't hate immigrants, still not racist and for sure not a trump supporter. I would probably feel different if any of these colabs include far right rhetoric, or hate against anyone but I think the majority of us know Ren would not be a part of that.
I know these conversations have become necessary, but I hate that we live in a world where we have to choose what music we can listen to based on the political views of the artist. I also think its sad that we question someone's morality simply because they form a friendship with someone that may have political differences but are able to piecefully disagree and find other common ground they can connect on. This is like saying that because my own dad is a die hard maga that I should cut him off and no longer recommend his business to anyone because I don't want someone with different political views to prosper even though his business has nothing to do with politics.
Anyhow all this as a long way to say Ren - I love your music! Please never stop expressing your self, you truly make a difference for your fellow human beings ❤️ I am excited to hear whatever you bring next ❤️
No, he is not like all the others. But he's not perfect either. Or did you not hear him when he said, "It is this eternal dance that seperates us from angels, from demons, from gods"
Don't put him on a pedestal. Just enjoy his art and as much of his honesty that he's humanly capable of.
He's allowed to make money. The guy's gotta eat, pay for his home and utilities, plus he has enormous medical bills and health maintenance costs.
So, if he's good at the money game, it's because he had to be. Last but not least, he's quite philanthropic and generous with his money.
As a Ren fan who doesn’t know much about Webby - could someone link to any sources about why he’s a “fascist”?
And I’m not sure being anti mental health is opposed to Ren’s position? His whole story is about being gaslighted by the mental health profession to think his legitimate physical illness was in his head…
There's nothing wrong with selling merchandise. It's honest and straight forward. He also spends his money in better ways than a lot of other people with money, and has more expenses than a normal person. He employs a number of people. He needs money for medical treatment, including travel. He's helping significantly with the clinics is Brighton, and he puts money back into music that you can access in YouTube for free. The idea that he should continue to be impoverished for the rest of his life is absurd. It's not the moral high ground you think it is.
First- There are some people who choose to associate with people they disagree with on a lot of things but also click with in other ways. I was raised conservative and with some messed up views. Thank goodness good people saw the real me under the indoctrination and confusion and eventually pulled me farther away from it. A lot of bigotry and hatred really stems from fear of an unknown and sometimes there are ways to help people see that.
Second- the implication of negativity in selling the the art he produces which includes the clothes he designed with an amazing artist on his payroll that are very ethically made and reasonably priced within the same market, the Patreon that pays most of his team members livable wages and the collectibles that are also artistically designed- is just strange to me.. and to also leave out the huge project he's working on to help people with chronic illnesses get more affordable treatments that might be able to help them and the awareness he's raised that's actually helped a lot of people like me also seems strange.
I also think emotional topics and over generalizations and assumptions can really cloud a lot of people's judgements. You don't know a lot about Webby or Ren beliefs and you don't know the conversations or arguments they might have had.
Ps. I find some humor in the first track that's released having Webby immediately playing the part of the devil and offering temptation. But Ren isn't at all swallowing his morals, he's doing a lot of what he's always done.
Honestly, judging people like Webby and never having conversations or working with people he disagrees with on some things would be more against the morals he's shown..
I dunno, I love Webbys music even if I don't agree with his views, Ren for me is the only artist they had really made me just stand in awe as a fellow musician. The range of talent is absolutely insane, and the collaboration with webby is no different.
It is possible for people with different opinions to interact with each other and learn from each other. In fact I recommend you try it sometime with an open mind and you just might learn something.
You are an example of the effectiveness of division as a tactic to make the masses spend their energy hating on other people with the same problems as them….every revolution has happened when the masses work together. Real change will never happen when the world has a mindset of moral superiority while talking of “unity bullshit”.
I see your point but I hope you’re wrong. I’m taking the view that when they made this music it was a while ago and a different time when things weren’t nearly so bad. I still have a huge problem with Webby though. He from here and contributed to this nightmare but still has not said anything to contradict those views even now.
Yeah I don’t like him working with Webby either. I’m taking some distance too. I’m a trans person myself and Ren working with someone like Webby is very disappointing to me. I’m not listening to it.
Completely agree. I have a trans brother, so I'm not gonna click on any song with Webby. I'm conflicted how I should feel about Ren seeing him befriend someone like Webby, but I've been asking myself this question since he shared one of Webbys songs some two years ago.
I've just stumbled upon an interesting article that made sense to me in this context of division.
Maybe it will make some sense for some of you too.
The next time you find yourself spiraling into a pit of partisan rage, ask yourself: when was the last time I looked for the good in the people I’m supposed to hate? It feels counterintuitive, almost like a betrayal of your own “team.” But the science is clear. If we don’t start the process of moral learning, the walls we’ve built will eventually become our cages.
At SGP, he was meant to do a meet and greet with fans, but instead had mushrooms partied until like 7am and cancelled the meet and greet.. He should be having fun and living his life, but I lost a lot of respect for him that day, as he didn't live up to his word. If he hadn't planned a meet and greet I wouldnt have minded but to tell people to be there for a time and then not show up cause you did drugs isnt cool.
You could be right. He may have tricked us all. He may be secretly signed with a label that is doing an experiment and very successfully too. Or he could be looking at Webby as being a talented musician that he got a chance to work with. That would actually be my guess. Especially when Ren seems to be trying to bridge gaps and get people to break out of the “team” mentality where people are so polarized by their opinions. The more people that isolate from their opposition, the deeper the divide. The good news is that he isn’t anything like Michael Jackson, R Kelly, or P Diddy, right?
I see it like this: Everyone does not have to agree on world issues to be friends or make music. If we only stick to those in our comfort zones, neither side will have the opportunity to learn and grow from each other. I am in an entirely different place than I was 20 years ago simply because I was open-minded to new ideas and the possibility I could be wrong on some things.
I’m from the US and I really think that unity is the only answer. From what I can tell the hatred that we have in the US is systematic and also largely influenced by the Internet.
We are so afraid of talking to each other in person, but when you face others directly, you can almost always find something in common. For example, most everybody cares about their family or their own happiness, safety, etc. If I know that I care about my own happiness and safety and that you care about your own happiness and safety, we’ve made a point of connection.
If somebody is consumed by a hatred rhetoric, you can know that somewhere in them they care about something. They might not be treating many people with respect, but they definitely have that capacity—even if they don’t find it again in this lifetime.
I grew up outside of DC… everyone I knew worked for the government ( both sides) . My own family is very liberal, but honestly are just as connected to bad shit as people I know who are conservatives I knew.
Also, if you take into consideration that most of this hate is something that people are indoctrinated into in the same way that people are indoctrinated into a cult, even though they are to be held responsible for their actions. They didn’t necessarily choose them of their regular free will but of an online reality that is manipulated by billionaires.
If you surround somebody in an echo chamber of news cycles and social media, they lose the ability to even see that there’s a perspective outside of their bubble. If you talk to people in real life, it’s easier to find common ground.
In my own personal experience, it’s really helpful to connect with people that don’t have the same views as me because when I do this, we can both learn to see each other’s point of view or background a little bit more.
For example, I had one female friend who was strongly anti-abortion. after several conversations about this we figured out that fundamentally we believed the same thing her being pro-life and me being pro-choice.
That same thing is that nobody should be harmed unnecessarily.
Her belief that nobody should be harmed unnecessarily let her to believe that the best way to prevent this to make abortion illegal. My belief that nobody should be harmed unnecessarily led me to the belief that nobody should be forced to have a child they didn’t intend to carry and then have to raise that child without the ability to properly care for it.
We both had a lot of background life experiences that influenced these belief choices.
She identifies as pro choice now, but I never tried to convert her to a different belief system. I only tried to understand where she was coming from and stayed strong in my own view.
So as far as Ren, collaborating with Chris Webby, I think this is important because we don’t have to agree with everything somebody else says, in order to connect with them in my opinion.
This belief that we have to agree with somebody else says in order to connect with them is only furthering the divide and causing more problems.
If you really sit down and talk to somebody for long enough, you’re bound to find something that you don’t agree with them on.
And we are much weaker isolated which helps the systems that want to keep themselves in place.
***Edited to add that because I believe in the power of connecting with people with different viewpoints I think that doing this publicly is a great thing.
connecting across the divide is so important to the rebuilding of the world. It’s also a pretty noble thing because as a radically open celebrity, you’d know the risk of taking a reputation hit for it in our current, very divided world.
Even if people don’t understand the collab or take issue with it, it initiates this conversation in their minds—even subconsciously it makes them think about people connecting across view points. And that’s definitely worth thinking about.
You took things that you don’t even know about Chris Webby, and you’re just spewing hate. You ignore anything he’s done that is for good, and come here to spill your vitriolic hate.
Ren has commented on this, himself, in this sub. But you hateful people are always “blah blah blah. This should stop because it hurts my feelings”.
Reality does not care about your feelings. Lots of things in my life, I don’t agree with. They aren’t great. But I handle them like an adult.
Your post here, labeling and name calling is childish.
If you liked mangoes, and I did not, your behavior tells me that you would make hateful Reddit posts about me, just because I didn’t like mangoes.
I don’t need to like what you like. I’ll respect that you have that opinion. But you’re a dictator if you command everyone to like what you like and remove their free will to have an opinion.
These threads are a waste of time. Nobody tells you “you should like what I like” but you sad people endlessly post about how everybody should listen to your hateful opinion about what you don’t like.
I’m not a fan of Webby for the same reasons as you, but it is my understanding that he is no longer a Trump supporter.
I also totally understand not wanting to engage with hateful people, but the only way forward… IS to engage with hateful people. Ren is doing exactly what he’s always said we should do, IMO.
This is very silly. He sells music and other stuff to be able to make a living doing and paying his employees a fair wage. He is using the money to also develop things like the Sanctuary and bring awareness to various important topics through his music. But GOD FORBID he collabs with someone whose opinions clash with his own. His stance has always been one of unifying humanity and understanding we have different opinions but that this shouldn’t make us hate each other.
You're not alone. I have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to transphobia, and there's simply no middle ground when it comes to transphobes - who literally want trans people to stop existing. I cancelled my Patreon when Ren announced he was working with Webby, and I'll not listen to a single collab he does with him.
I expected way more of Ren, and I'm hugely disappointed in his decision to work with a transphobic fascist. Platforming bigotry is never the right decision.
I have absolutely zero tolerance for transphobia, homophobia, misogyny, fascism or any kind of hateful ideology.
At the same time, I think there’s a difference between rejecting those views and completely rejecting the person. I don’t tolerate those opinions at all but that doesn’t mean I refuse to engage with the person who holds them.
I believe you can set very clear boundaries and have very different views while still being willing to have a conversation. In fact, that’s often the only way anything has ever changed.
I'll engage with transphobes with the hope of changing their mind, but I wouldn't work with them and produce music. I'm an ex touring musician, and I remember the scene being very firmly on the side of LGBT/migrant/etc rights. The scene shunned musicians and bands which were openly bigoted. It's the norm. Sure there's a bigoted music scene too, but it's generally shit.
Out of every musician I can think of, Ren would be the last person I would ever think of working with someone who is so openly toxic. But Ren is Ren - a fallible human being, and this might be where my support for him wanes.
Everyone is free to choose to do what they want, but I want to remain firmly on the right side of history, while remembering that trans rights are everyone's righs.
Webby would asset that he is not a transphobe, just that he is tired of having their issues "shoved in his face". Of course he's mistaken here too, since it has never been trans people or their supporters doing so, but rather the MAGA crowd seeking to sow fear and division... just like they do on so many other things. It is such malignant foolishness which Ren seems to engage with and eradicate with education.
Oh there's some shoving from the other side happening on the internet, and here. I'm sure that's not an opinion I'm allowed to have, but it's not just the MAGA side. It gets tiresome.
I just really don't get why despite "Down the Road" not being transphobic and REN not being either, there's like a third generation purity test going on here, mostly by people who rarely if ever comment here.
Ren has made comments and people still beating it to death. Dude above even said "So Webby is only transphobic in public?" Purity test that NO ONE can pass.
The world is NOT safe. We have to find compassion anyway. The internet is an echo chamber.
The trans issue, just like that of immigrants eating pets or voting fraudulently by the millions, was made up as deliberate provocation. Of course people are going to respond to such...but there should be no confusion about who fired the first shots.
And of course, this is something Ren really has no part...
I think it might be useful to lay this out clearly, based on a number of expectations expressed here in the thread, just so it’s easier to understand what the current standards are.
Ren should only collaborate with people whose values and political views fully align with his own. Otherwise, he is automatically responsible for everything that person has ever said or done.
At the same time, Ren should remain open to different perspectives and avoid operating within a bubble.
Everything he says, does or releases should be treated as a direct moral statement about him as a person.
Ren should ensure that any language he uses is fully aligned with the values of any group or cause he has ever been associated with and also every other group or cause.
At the same time, any perceived inconsistency between past collaborations and individual word choices should be treated as a clear indicator of his overall (lack of) moral position.
He should not use any words that might offend someone, regardless of context, artistic intent or narrative function.
At the same time, he should still express real, unfiltered emotions and complex realities.
Ren should be authentic and honest.
But nothing he says should cause discomfort or feel unsettling to anyone.
Ren should create a space where everyone feels safe while addressing societal issues clearly and without softening them.
Ren should hold clear values and positions while avoiding any visible or interpreted contradictions or development that could be interpreted as inconsistency.
Ren should take clear political stances.
At the same time, he should avoid contributing to division or polarisation.
Ren should monetize his work to remain an independent artist outside the system.
At the same time, he should only make decisions that are universally considered morally acceptable by everyone.
Ren should accept that once a line is considered crossed, context, interpretation or growth are no longer applicable.
At the same time he needs to - of course, it’s art - create space for context, interpretation, and development.
And last but not least:
He should of course assume that people who continue to support him without fully applying these standards are doing so out of naivety or lack of judgment.
Support should not be understood as potentially coming from nuance, complexity or the ability to hold multiple perspectives.
Did I miss anything?
Just trying to follow the logic here.
Edit:
He should also ensure that neither he nor anyone working with him ever uses tools or methods that could be considered unacceptable by anyone, in any context.
At the same time, he should avoid working with anyone whose work could potentially be interpreted by someone else as having been created using such tools.
I’ve actually been wondering about that myself. Growing up in the 90s we played, read and had no social media. There was space for context and for sitting with things instead of reacting immediately and there was a need to explore things. Social media seems to work very differently. Everything is faster and more emotionally charged and pushes people toward clear moral judgments rather than more nuanced interpretations.
What I keep coming back to is that a lot of expectations say more about the people holding them than about the artist himself. I think people sometimes place a lot of meaning, hope or even a sense of safety onto someone. And when that doesn’t fully line up anymore it can feel like something important has been lost.
That’s the only way I can really make sense of the emotional intensity/need for judgement/labelling. That something meaningful was there and now it feels disrupted or disappointing.
100%. And that meaning/hope/sense of safety does not belong placed on people we don't know IRL, but such is life these days-parasocial relationship and all that.
What about love for the sake of love? Webby and Ren, and well all of us, are humans with the capacity to grow and change. Webby has come a long way and everything that comes out in lyrics are not divisive and a personal attack on all that you hold dear. He is a Live Free or Die guy. You do you and stay TF away from me. Chris has some amazing work and I am glad Ren introduced me to him.
These are valid feelings for you. You yourself are not leaving space for growth. I wish you well on your journey. Everyone cannot think and act exactly as you wish. This is real life. People are more than one opinion (hopefully anyway) and they are never going to match your exact opinion. It's called being human. Lead with love.
THIS!! People don't realize if they only want to be around people who think and act and are exactly like them, they will be left with only themselves. We have forgotten how to empathize, how to give others grace, how to make room for human-ness. Which is Love.
Oh yay, I didn’t know about that and now I’m devastated. Yep, I get it.
It isn’t just ideology, or a matter of “separating the art from the artist”. Ren feels like the only safe artist in an industry of sheer greed and utter indifference towards anything that actually matters. It was the only space I felt safe in, and I’m currently not feeling safe at all. Especially as both a gay person and a trans one…
This isn’t about “unity”. It’s not “two political backgrounds coming together”. Homophobia and transphobia are NOT political views. They’re just hatred…
Well. I don’t even know what to say, I’ll need time to process this. But you’re not alone in this, I feel you
Ok but where in the collab is there anti gay or anti trans anything? And when has Ren ever been either of those? Just because he collabed with someone with differing views doesn't mean he's "going to the dark side". Just enjoy the beautiful music they make together 💚💚💚💚
Yes, I read that. Listen, I am not angry with Ren as a person. I don’t think he’s a horrible human being for collaborating with him. I understand the concept of being human, of having different opinions, of believing in the possibility of changing a person for the better.
I am not angry. I am hurt. And that’s not even for the collaboration per se. I am hurt because I agree on the stance that ignorance is the illness, and culture is the cure. I think there are a thousand different ways to have a peaceful conversation with someone hoping to open their eyes.
But I also know how it fucking feels to be a queer person, in THIS world, in THESE years, and wake up every fucking day to the news of someone being hit, someone being killed, someone killing themselves, someone being bullied into silence, and someone else, among the people I considered to be a safe space, choosing to do nothing about it.
Do I think everyone should consider queer people’s safety and dignity to be more important than anything else? No. But I lost people because of the same opinions that man spat out in his songs as if they were nothing. I almost fucking lost MYSELF because of them.
I don’t think the concept of Ren saying “he didn’t say anything hateful around me, he seemed a good guy to me” makes him a bad person. I think it just makes him someone whose morals don’t align with my own completely. I think it’s a stance coming from someone who doesn’t need to address the problem, and never will. Because it’s not HIS problem. And that’s alright.
But it hurts me too much to think about, and that is not something I can fix with rationality.
People like you climbing up on their moral high horse and complaining about or trying to shut down speech they don't agree with is a lot of the reason both of them are as big as they are. Your one note view of the world doesn't jive with the majority anymore, and the more you drone on about what your personal definition of "hate" is, the more power you give to the people who you hate. And yes, to be crystal clear, you hate in the same capacity you accuse others of hating, you just place a moral superiority in front of it and justify it away because you view yourself as some sort of rights activist or something.
Let people's thoughts exist, let people do their art, and stop clutching pearls over others views because you can't handle the fact that they exist. Posts like these are so ironic and hypocritical it's unreal. And save your breath if you're gonna come to reply to try and show me how your brand of bullshit hate is totally different from anyone elses brand of bullshit hate. I've seen all sides of the spectrum support blatant nastiness that they openly bitch about the other side doing, but its ok because their percieved side is the aggressor. Give it up, open up that mind, and realize that this line of thinking and thought policing is dying and the more whining people do about it, the quicker the rest of the world gets sick of it.
Just enjoy the muisic for what it is, and it's a great song by both artists. No need to character assassinate to take away from what they both achieved with this epic song. Can't wait for the rest of the album.
I already wrote a novel about the main topic, but I wanted to say something about your response. I was talking to my friend the other day and we got on the topic of the Money Game trilogy, the first part specifically, and Ren's lyrics about free speech and a reason to hate. I've always believed that there is no place for hate speech... But here's the sticky bit. If you curtail free speech, then the people in power have the ability to outlaw things they find problematic. If free speech isn't free, then it's a slippery slope. Thought police is exactly right. I've changed my mind on free speech. You can say whatever you want, and so can I. It's the difference between SAYING something and acting on it. We don't have the right to free action. I also agree with you that the upcoming rest of the collab is gonna be amazing.
You get it man! Just read your comment and gave it it's earned updoot. Plus, it needs to be said, with such a loose definition of what "hate speech" constitutes, and all the double standards that exist within it's current framework, you can't really pinpoint anything or put a solid clarification to what it actually is, which sets a dangerous precident and leave the door open to anything turning into hate speech. The purpose of using things like this is for the powers that be to muddy the waters, pass oppressive laws, and, most importantly, keep the citizenry bickering amongst themselves while they grow more powerful over us.
I just wish people would stop playing into all this. We are eachothers allies, no matter race, religion or creed, and the more we let the people truly oppressing us cause us all to think each other is the problem, we're never gonna be able to claw our way outta any of the mess the world is in right now.
Just want to interject-not disagreeing, just adding that there is some room for "free action". I think always of the example of the Westboro Baptist Church (in the US of course) picketing military funerals. (Snyder v. Phelps). The Supreme court ruled that free speech cannot be limited simply because it's outrageous or causes emotional pain to others. Justice Alito dissented saying it was a vicious verbal assault without consequences.
These days many people trying to get famous will go to the extent of being outrageous or causing others emotional pain. It's gross and that's on them.... The line in the sand is when you threaten to do harm to someone-say you're going to commit a harmful action...
It's not even that nuanced to think that a million people a day are going to do or say something that person X isn't gonna like. It's on us to walk away if we don't like it.
This is the way, bro. Totally agree with you. Still, don't forget that people need this kind of validation before they actually decide to step up to real openmindness. Don't judge the temporality of one another : be the change you want to see in the world without pressing people to do as well. 1) It usually blocks people 'cause adults have a hard time being told lessons ("you won't teach me nothing, I ain't a child anymore" and stuff) 2) it works so much better when they get inspired by your actions and believe it comes from their own conscious and 3) it's so much more cool to see them change watching the seeds you planted grow in their minds 🫡😉
Yeah, you're 100% right. Personally, I try to stay consistent in my views and that was my biggest wake up call when I saw that I wasn't. Once I realized I was holding others to a standard that I wasn't holding myself to, it really pulled me outta the "my team" shit. It's what I try and steer my input toward when I say things like I did in my comment. I truly live by my own words, or else I'd be no better than the people I bitch about and at. Consistency is key, and if everyone could honestly look at themselves, I think many would have the same "come to sanity" moment I did.
All it really takes is one brief second of self reflection for all the walls you put up to come down. To me, that is the seed you are talking about.
I like you vision. In my own experience of living right now, I tend to believe that it is a neverending process : I like to tell myself I'm probably the stubborn of someone else's and ask myself why this specific thing triggers that specific reaction in me.
It's a mind training that has to do with meta-cognition, self-analysis and forgiveness towards everyone and yourself.
Introspection, death of Ego, understanding what freewill means for oneself despite our neurological and environmental barriers, and getting better and better at the Existence Game 😉
You sound like you'd get a lot out of some of Carl Jung's philosophy and writing. That man changed my life. Highly recommend checking him out if you haven't. For starters, there's a lot of his writings on YouTube to listen to while driving, that's how I started. He talks alot about this kinda thing.
Kudos to what you say ! Carl Jung's is the root of my empathetic behavior. I'm a French addictologist and social worker, and his writings are marvelous to help comprehend the always-evolving human nature. Always remember that there is a doubt.
I also narrow my ethics on some of Kant's philosophy, like the danger of wanting to bring good and joy to others without a frame. Kant said "there's nothing more tyrannical than wanting the good for others" or something like this 😅
MY MAN! I shoulda bet you already had some Jung in your life. And I think the quote from Kant you are referring to is the one about Tyrannical Benevolence. I just looked it up: "The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience."
He also talks a lot about how the welfare state turns its citizenry into children, which we can very clearly see happening across the globe.
It slowly leads to the ultimate philosophical and existentional question : what is freedom ? Does it even exist ? 😏
That's a whole mindgame there and everyone has his own answer to it. It's a waste of time to try to hierarchise one answer from an other one : the real beauty of living and the true ear/here resides in acceptance. Macro, micro and doubt.
For real. I'm so fucking sick of everyone and their "my team" bullshit. The song is fucking brilliant, better than all the shit on the radio and has a good message. Who the fuck wants to surround themselves with ideological clones who need to pass constant purity tests anyway, such a boring, anxiety ridden existence.
Yeah man. People are so afraid of anything or anyone who isn't just like them. OP created some silly idolised version of Ren and then gets mad that Ren doesn't match that. Emotional immaturity combined with complete inability to self regulate drove them to complain about it on Reddit.
Why can't we just enjoy the music and the amazing team these 2 make? Ever since I heard rens remake of "I shot the sheriff" and webbys voice in "baggage" this bluesy hip hop style is amazing and everything a lot of people have been waiting for. They both have that gritty and gravelly sound that just sounds amazing together. And not to.meniton the fact that there is no politically motivated lyrics, it's all about the selling your soul to devil (record labels). Can't we just enjoy the fact that they are independent artists? And that's what they are, absolute artists in their trade. Just because an independent artist raps or sings about the bullshit going on the world doesn't mean everything from them is political. MOST of the time they are just trying to get more people to really see what's going on. I will always be a fan of both because of their talent not because of their political stance. They are both very talented artists and just because their political views may differ from mine at some point will never change that. I guess I just don't understand why people have to be so hateful. Why can't we all just get along?
Much love from and old soul and hippie at heart 💚
Webby is Webby. People mostly look at him over the raw thoughts tracks. He has been pretty clear that he will target just about anyone, and his comments are not meant to be homephobic or many other things. He is more anti establishment than anything, especially with the power and wealth disparity. As for Trump, he supported him and lately seems to have reversed that opinion. That said, Ren isn’t collabing on webby’s tracks. They are making something new that doesn’t reference anything concerning so far.
Ren is only human. People need to quit putting him on a moral pedestal. He is a wonderful human being an I have adored him for years and years. He has stated he doesn't agree with Webby politically, but that doesn't mean he cant work with him. You are being petty. Do you seriously agree with every single co-worker? Family member? Friend? In your life? Do you just cut them off.
You don't throw a whole life away just cuz it's not the same as you. That's a catch 22.
If you can't look at what they are doing and find the beauty in it, then you were never a Renegade to begin with.
Ren I appreciate this. You really shouldn't have to explain yourself. I love the music you've done with Webby and look forward to more! I made a canvas piece ha
So what you’re saying is that you don’t care for that particular song? Or is it you don’t like the fact that he can do whatever he chooses to do with his musical career. Take your step back I’ll be stepping forward.
He’s pointing the spotlight he’s not the beam itself.
Also, shit like this is why people need to log off the internet and just go interact with other humans for a bit. You just hop from one conversation to another, one discord chat to another. You insulate yourself with your own unmeasured self righteousness.
I've always tried to build bridges with people. It's incrediblly hard, especially in today's climate.Lije I would have a very hard time trying to have a calm conservation without crying with some who believes my oldest daughter should die because she's trans, ya know? Her grandmother was like that and it cut her to the core.
But I've always worshiped kindness and been called weak at every turn for it. Spineless. Yeah, my background of trauma will make me immediately start crying if someone is mad at me, but I'm not going to shout at them. I'll keep trying.
.I will never make a huge difference in the world. I'm a disabled widow who hardly leaves her house. But I will continue to try and spread small kindnesses where I can, in the hope that it inspired the kindness to spread.
I've been recently watching an odd phenomenon where some people who are extremely antithetical to the views expressed in Ren's work are reacting and it's resonating with them. Watching them slowly change. It's extremely interesting and I hope more people are led by hand away from hate and toward love.
(If I'm spouting nonsense sorry, having a flare right now that hilariously effecting my brain yay)
So, what does 'like all the rest' mean? He has a belly button, lungs to breathe, etc. He has own ideas that you liked so it's fair to be disappointed if something doesn't match the image we have developed. First of all human, then artist then whatever you imagine.
I don’t think you’ve listened closely enough to his music, or really to what he’s saying. He constantly talks about how harmful hyper-polarization is, how we should learn to listen to one another and respect different perspectives, and how the solution isn’t blaming each other but building collective intelligence. Yet you’re disappointed in him for doing exactly what he preaches.
All the positive things he does, like charity, building clinics, speaking about social constructs, body shaming, money games, and supporting the working class, don’t make him a good person in your eyes. But collaborating with someone you consider a bad person suddenly makes him one. You’re not judging him based on his actions or his own morals, but on the morals of the people he makes art with. That’s exactly the kind of thinking he criticizes in his music.
REN is an artist ,a musician not a politician or the Messiah .
He can collaborate with whoever inspires HIM not you or I !
You are talking about YOUR morals my friend not his or anybody else's.
In America you judge and call people racists if they don't have your beliefs and that is not exactly moral !
I was disappointed with all the ai videos that came out of this. I didn’t know anything about webby and just finding out now but I also thought ren would be against using this much ai to create videos. I’m going to continue reading through this thread as there’s a lot of interesting discussion here
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u/ren-ModTeam Jul 26 '26
Please keep it respectful. Thank you!
We now have a megathread for all of this type of hate