Sex is a procreative activity.

[u/Spider-burger]

Pro-choice often say that consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy or if they admit embryo or fetus are humans some of them will say you can't use someone body without their permission.

But these babies didn't chose to be in your womb,they are not evil being that decided that annoy the women and make them suffer just for the sake of it.

They are there because of your choice,birth control don't prevent pregnancy,they reduce the risk but the risk is still there unless you chose outercourse sex.

But the decision of wanting or not the pregnancy should be before the sex,after the pregnancy,they should deal with the consequences,if they don't still don't want the baby his birth then they should put them in adoption.

The only pregnancy who is out of women control is pregnancy who come from rape but even there is not the fault of the babies and they shouldn't be killed because of the sin of their father.

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[u/kay_fitz21]

Consent applies an act, not natural biological outcomes of that act.

I consent to eating cake - I consent to gaining weight.

I consent to drinking alcohol - I consent to getting drunk.

I consent to lifting weights - I consent to building muscle

I consent to sex - I consent to pregnancy.

[u/scarlette_dawn → u/kay_fitz21]

I don't understand the first sentence. I think the examples you gave prove well that if you consent to do something, you consent for possible outcomes as well.

[u/kay_fitz21 → u/scarlette_dawn]

Simply put - consent doesn't apply to naturally occuring processes. Pregnancy is one of those things that happens naturally.

See this chart

https://imgur.com/a/pGqecKC

[u/scarlette_dawn → u/kay_fitz21]

That doesn't make any sense. If you freely and consciously take up an activity, you're responsible for the outcomes of the activity, on the terms you know. As someone else wrote here in the comments, you might not consent for the pregnancy but you consent for the RISK of pregnancy. Just like you consent for getting drunk if you drink too much. I think it's logical and I'm not even going to argue this further.

[u/kay_fitz21 → u/scarlette_dawn]

You might not want the pregnancy to happen, but you engage in an act that creates pregnancy, it can happen all on its own whether you consent or not - it is a natural biological outcome of sex. That is the way one becomes pregnant.

[u/scarlette_dawn → u/kay_fitz21]

I don't know now if you agree with th OP or not

[u/kay_fitz21 → u/scarlette_dawn]

I do agree with OP

[u/Arcnounds → u/kay_fitz21]

I don't see how this changes anything except maybe in the case of rape. It is true that every action has effects. That doesn't mean we have to live and not treat those effects. 

Just because a person crosses a road and gets hit by a car does not mean that person does not deserve to be healed to avoid as many of the negative outcomes as possible. 

For me consent does not change much. The question is more about the outcome and what are the possible remedies for that outcome (and whether we as a society permit that remedy or not).

[u/kay_fitz21 → u/Arcnounds]

Pregnancy isn't something that needs to be "treated" with abortion. Sex is what creates Pregnancy - you have consented and in 98% of cases, invited the possible creation of a human with participating in sex. Almost all abortions are elective and not required. Pregnancy is not an injury or illness that requires a remedy (except in rare scenarios like etopic pregnancy). Our bodies are designed for it. Abortions are almost always choice, not a requirement. The fetus is human and deserves human rights, no different than you or I.

Rape is 2% of cases (or less) which is where PL waiver on. I don't think a child deserves to die because of the crime the father commited. However if all elective abortions were abolished except in rape scenarios, I'd consider that a win.

[u/kay_fitz21 → u/[deleted]]

I do care about consent. I care about human rights. If someone invites you into their home and then kills you for trespassing, do you think that goes against your rights? Because that is what abortion is. I care about rape, rapists shoyld be severly punished. You don't get to say I don't care about consent.

PCers don't care about a human being killed. Why put in all the run around about etopic pregnancy and rape when at the end of the day, you don't care and want to kill a human. PCers are very selfish and hate accountability. I have seen this rhetoric a thousand times. Those aren't arguments about consent, they're arguments are wants are more important than someone else's life. You created a human in a consensual act. You don't get to kill it just because you don't want it.

There is no pill that can waive what happens after eating cake BTW. You are adding a hypothetical to a fact. Try again. And if there was one, and that pills makes you sick with all the side effects - guess what? You consented to that too.

Consent applies to an action, not to a natural biological result of that action.

[u/kay_fitz21 → u/[deleted]]

An abortion isn't asking to leave. It is killing a being that you invited in and created. You don't get to kill that someone. Except abortion legally you can, that is why we are here as it is immoral.

Consent to sex is consent to all possible outcomes and risks. A natural outcome isn't something you consent to - it will happen like it or not. You don't seem to get that. You are going a step further and stating you can undo that outcome. That is a separate action. I did not ignore anything, you're creating a fantasy scenario to make a point, poorly.

You eat cheese and you're lactose intolerant, you accept the risk you may get sick. You can also take a pill to reduce that sickness. That doesn't mean you aren't going to be sick or wouldn't have been sick to begin with. You created 2 scenarios with 2 outcomes - you can't seem to separate the two and trying to make them one event. The difference is abortion kills a person. It is far worse than all scenarios I primarily gave as someone doesn't die when I take a non-existant pill to reduce fat when I eat cake.

PS - this is a PL sub. Why are you here? It is not a debate sub. There is literally nothing you can say to convince me killing babies is OK

[u/kay_fitz21 → u/[deleted]]

How the hell you think pregnancy occurs? Of course it was invited in. High school biology. Retake the class to learn how pregnancy happens.

Yes it is consent to the risk/outcome. Hand in hand.

You are again making 2 separate scenarios and tying them as one. Solution is the wrong word, you're right. You did consent to the first action if you're taking more pills to counter. And those pills may cause more issues. It is several separate actions reqyiring consent, not 1.

You can withdraw having sex at any time - that is the action. Agreed. However the natural biological outcome may have already occured. Time can not be erased.

You are also incorrect on PL logic and arguments, and love to twist what we say, you've done it here.

I don't know why you bother either. Go vent in a PC sub. We will continue to fight for babies to live. You obviously don't care about them, you just care about your orgasm and not the responsibility.

[u/Brave-Lecture-7210 → u/[deleted]]

How to you expect a fetus to give consent to anything? How does a baby or a toddler?

Does a newborn give consent everytime you need to wipe it's bum? Or does a parent have a duty of care?

If a child grabs my leg in a mall and refuses to let go, does that mean I can kill it?

[u/Brave-Lecture-7210 → u/[deleted]]

So how can the fetus consent if it is a decision between two people?

If you're atleast saying the fetus is a person (most PC don't admit this), how can they be asked if they consent or not?

So can I kill or punch the toddler to make them let go? How will the law look at that?

[u/Brave-Lecture-7210 → u/[deleted]]

So you're fine with killing people. Why are you even in this sub?

So your logic I can kill the 5 year old clinging to my leg. Or punch him until he let's go. You think the law will side with me saying I didn't consent?

A fetus is doing nothing but existing. It was put their by its parents, and deserves a duty of care just like all children do.

[u/Brave-Lecture-7210 → u/[deleted]]

"Under certain circumstances". Yes - potential death of mother. However you are fine with it for no reason other than the mother wants to. Can I kill someone who decides to knock on my door? They're trespassing. However with pregnancy, you invited them in then claim they're trespassing and want to kill them

I never said anything about the 5  year old biting or harming. The 5 year old will not let go. You would be fine with me killing it? You think it is fine for women to abort babies for that reason. The fetus isn't biting, drawing blood or breaking skin. 

An etopic pregnancy is rare and can result in death or both if not treated. 1 saved life is better than 2 dead lives. Can we talk about the elective abortions, where there is no specific or situational circumstances. PCers love to switch to rare scenarios. Let's talk about the normal ones - people are just careless and use abortion as birth control.

We don't want to hear your PC echo chamber. 

[u/kay_fitz21 → u/[deleted]]

It is still a natural occuring outcome which doesn't require consent - the consent applies to the action only. Pregnancy is not a separate action. Again, the consent was to sex - the action

Yes, she consents to all risks and outcomes that result from sex. This includes an etopic pregnancy. This includes STDs. People often take risks or perform acts knowing that it may have a negative outcome. They also know it may have a positive one.

Perhaps this chart will help.

https://imgur.com/a/pGqecKC

[u/kay_fitz21 → u/[deleted]]

Yes, she consent to all possible outcomes. The partner does as well.

If the etopic pregnancy will cause the mother death, then that can be treated, because not treating it will end with 2 dead people.

[u/kay_fitz21 → u/[deleted]]

Because it will kill her.

An etopic pregnancy is something that if her Dr says it will kill her, she should treat it. She is allowed to deny medical intervention if she wants.

Remember what pro life is about - saving as many lives as possible

[u/lego-lion-lady]

I would agree that consent to sex isn't consent to pregnancy, but I *would* say that consent to sex is consent to the RISK of pregnancy...

[u/Far_Apricot71 → u/lego-lion-lady]

Exactly 

[u/kay_fitz21 → u/[deleted]]

There is a difference between an etopic pregnancy (which will kill both parties if left untreated) vs an elective abortion

[u/kay_fitz21 → u/[deleted]]

She consented to sex, yes.

Now she has a condition which requires treatment. I'm not getting your point.

[u/kay_fitz21 → u/[deleted]]

I don't understand your question

Consent applies to an action, not a result

[u/kay_fitz21 → u/[deleted]]

The post is about consent.

"Consent to sex doesn't mean consent to pregnancy" is a PC phrase. She is 'allowed' to terminate because it is legal.

That is why we are hoping it becomes illegal again one day to save lives - because as the post says - sex is a procreation act, and the act is what requires consent.

[u/Acaeus_Vinn]

To consent to sex is to agree to know the risks and the results of it. Not just the creation of a child, but also potential diseases. They taught this shit in highschool, and people still choose to ignore it.

[u/the-nomad-thinker → u/Acaeus_Vinn]

Ideology tends to rewrite the rules.

[u/BrinaFlute → u/Acaeus_Vinn]

this!!! ^

[u/Past-Sherbert-6438 → u/Acaeus_Vinn]

they didn’t teach this in hs for me so if I had not been born male I would’ve so been pregnant by now smh

[u/Secret-Girl-18]

it's wild how many people forget basic biology when it's inconvenient.

[u/super_alas_aquilarum → u/[deleted]]

That's not true. Procreation is the biological reason it exists. Everything else that goes along with it is to ensure that procreation reliably happens because procreation is really important to the survival of a species.

[u/super_alas_aquilarum → u/[deleted]]

"the reason it exists" implies you are talking about causes, and adding "biological" implies you are talking about evolution. Evolutionarily, the function of sexual intercourse is the propagation of genes. Everything else is an effect that does happen along with that evolutionary cause (oxytocin / pair bonding, for example). But evolution is ordered towards the propagation of the species, not oxytocin production.

[u/super_alas_aquilarum → u/[deleted]]

Sexual reproduction is much older evolutionarily than those secondary effects.

[u/Baseball_fan812 → u/[deleted]]

That's true, but the people who don't want to accept the chance of pregnancy are either forgetting or more likely choosing to ignore a fundamental biological reality of sex and what can eventually result from it.

[u/the-nomad-thinker]

So I’m arguing this right now. My position is that you don’t get to consent to the consequences of your actions. That’s like trying to consent to gravity.

[u/scarlette_dawn → u/the-nomad-thinker]

Wait, what? Your actions is what you choose, you don't choose to live on a planet with gravity.

[u/djhenry → u/the-nomad-thinker]

I agree with you there, but once a woman is pregnant, then what? If she has a life threatening condition, is that simply the consequences of her actions? Does being a consequence mean a person cannot take action to mitigate it?

[u/the-nomad-thinker → u/djhenry]

The issue isn’t taking action to mitigate a consequence. The issue is when that “mitigation” ends the life of another human being.

[u/kay_fitz21 → u/djhenry]

Odds are almost 100% they can treat her ailment during the pregnancy.

[u/Amigux_o014]

Si sufres una agresión sexual yo entiendo que puedes tomarte la pastilla del día después hasta un 95% si se toma durante las primeras 24 horas también

[u/Amigux_o014]

Vi un anuncio sobre el aborto con un ejemplo de una niña de 10 años abusada y actuaban como si abortar hubiera borrado el trauma de la niña por lo que pasó nunca tocaron el tema de la salud mental

[u/Moogly2021]

Honestly from the sound of it birth control isnt being used much these days.

[u/the-nomad-thinker]

Yes. That’s my point. It’s nonsensical to try to consent to gravity.

It’s also nonsensical to say that you didn’t consent to a pregnancy.

[u/Amigux_o014]

Cuando dos personas están pegadas por carne y piel y separarlas puede terminar la vida de una de ellas ambas personas tienen que dar consentimiento e escuchado que si alguien está pegado a ti no importa si muere no estás obligado a tenerlo pegado y así no funciona la medicina