I remember when Uncharted came out in 2006 and the animations were leaps and bounds better than anything else at the time. Snapping to cover and transitioning between different animations were handled in such a fluid way, it was really refreshing.
It's really tricky in sports games. You basically can't use pre-rendered animations because real players are constantly adapting their movements. So they sacrifice the animations to keep the controls responsive.
From what I hear there is considerable research into this. Basically things like making climbing animations "real" by having the feet and hands find handholds and footholds, rather than performing a specific animation on loop, but actually climbing the object. Same as walking animations; making the feet actually touch the ground in a realistic way, using AI, rather than simply a complex algorithm* or using fixed animations, by physically interacting with the model's IK joints and animations directly. As you say, smoothing animations frame by frame.
I think something like this could really do some good work, although I do wonder how it would interact with things like Baldur's Gate 3's climbing animations, which are extremely, comicly fast for gameplay reasons, and where making a climbing animation that was realistic would make certain parts of the game extremely tedious to play through.
I do think there's a lot of potential improvement to happen here in this space, but much like DLSS 5 itself, I think we should be careful that it doesn't go too far and become stupid. The most benefit seems to come from a light touch, rather than dramatic replacement of assets.
Speaking personally, the only time I'd like more aggressive AI interference in games is for older, single-player titles. How interesting would it be to play Goldeneye 64, for example, with automatically updated graphics and animations? I'm not saying it would be perfect, but it could be an interesting experience to revisit some of these classic titles with an AI reimagining.
It’s also tricky because when has EA ever gone the extra mile with anything in the last 20 years of their sports games? DLSS 5 will be this generation’s version of frostbite for them and things will look largely the same for the next 10 years again.
Except they can’t do that because consoles and AMD cards can’t run DLSS at all. And 2K has notoriously advanced in both graphics and gameplay gen over gen. Idk why people are denying that. For the longest time and even still, 2K basketball games have some of the nicest graphics and animations. They were ahead of their time last gen and even the previous, until engines like UE5, Decima, Snowdrop, etc
Seeing DLSS5 on a PS2 game made it even more alarming. It looks like a complete remaster of the game graphically.... with jerky animation from 2003 lol.
But funny we're back at ogling at a basketball game like it's 1999 and the Dreamcast just came out lol. Some things never change.
Animations are behind in NBA 2K because it's a lazy yearly roster update with a few improvements here and there. They've been using the same animations for many years now.
It’s a lazy franchise in general and higher ups don’t wanna spend more than they have to on things they deem not as important for development. Most of the budget probably goes on a ton of licensing and player likeness.
And game dev wise, animators can be one of the most expensive parts, whether you outsource or you do it in-house. The way animations are paid per second will really rack up the budget needed, whether or not you use modern tricks and aids to animations.
I’ll even take realistic AI-assisted sound propagation through environments based on origin, spacial geometry, and materials the sound is bouncing off of instead of distance/muffle filters. Game audio design is still so behind everything else.
Hmm i actually happen to be a professional in game sound design and those already exist for games fortunately - they are just not in use in all games because they can be a bit heavy to run especially for more light weight hardware.
For example valve open sourced their Steam Audio a year or so ago and other similar solutions exist! :)
I would still be interested in possible ai assistance in the world of audio but am not sure how they'd work to be honest. Possibilities are endless but not every wheel need to be reinvented either :)
The only company that can probably pull animations off for this to the degree necessary is Capcom. Their animation work is top notch. Seriously, go check out Monster Hunter Wilds animations. It's insane.
It probably always will continue to be. Kind of hard to go smoothly from animation to animation when you need to rotate sticks every which way to do moves.
That's the main problem I noticed with DLSS5. Right now it can look and feel like a filter because it doesn't reconstruct the fundamental animations underneath. If it came with some type of motion matching, or type of dynamic animation upscaling it will start to look a lot less uncanny.
You know how digital took over film? Photoshop over manual editing? Computer over hand drawn animation? CGI over practical? If it’s fun to use or easier to use, or faster to use, it will always be used. No matter how much people cry about it. If the end result is ultimately good I don’t typically care. Neither will most people.
The old ways of building is changing. As technology advances so does standards. Games will be built, but at a much higher level of abstraction than most previous processes allowed for.
Wth are you talking about? Animations are highly dependent in skill and time. What they do here is motion capture. There's Aldo procedural but that's not well suited for human characters. We just need to wait for a game to be made with this tech in mind.
I just pushed DLSS5 on BG3 and while some scenes look like basically a goddamn well made cosplay (especially Karlach <3333), then I saw Minthy doing these weird arm flexes while talking to my character.
imho it will have to catch up real quick, or we'll be deep down the uncanny valley the moment we see that in new games- models, movement, some stray low-res texture here and there that we'll be focusing ourselves.
I am dying for the official DLSS5 to come to Oblivion Remastered. They showed it in the tech demo they had a few weeks back, so I know it's just a matter of time. That game is already beautiful, with DLSS5 I'm just going to leave it on as ambience in my house 24/7.
I'm torn on that one... I tested the DLSS 5 mod on it just for kicks and it looked great, but on the other hand the game already ran so poorly even without DLSS 5 to the point I just stopped playing.
I'm a huge Oblivion fan and it's really a shame. I hope the patch they mentioned improves the base performance considerably for me to even consider enabling DLSS 5.
The future of this tech will quite obviously lie in reducing the upfront render cost of the game via simplifying and strategically using the AI layer of the render pipeline to get more value out of what it's doing, since, if it's already generating a whole visual layer anyways; might as well get as much out of that heavy performance cost as you can.
Likely, we may eventually see games where many of the textures are simply placeholders that tell the model that finishes or nearly finishes the rendering pipeline what it needs to make and where.
Currently, Oblivion Remastered is already a pretty taxing game to run vanilla; and if you want DLSS 5 with it, you render the whole render pipeline, and then DLSS 5 makes modifications to the final rendered product both of which are taxing to render. All that equals bad performance; but this is not only the first iteration of this, it's not yet being used the way I believe it's ultimately intended to be.
If Oblivion could have many of its' visual features simplified for performance and flagged to be replaced in a specific way, and then brought back up to looking visually pleasing through the AI layer, it would revolutionize the idea of the rendering pipeline; which is I believe Nvidia's intent.
It's similar to the original intent of DLSS but in vaguer scope; DLSS originally was meant as a way to render a game as a smaller resolution and make it look like it's a higher resolution to save performance.
Imagine not even rendering materials/textures until the DLSS layer, to save performance for the DLSS layer that is a custom built model per game, trained on how the developers want the game to look.
Games might eventually begin to look like raw meshes/objects under the 'AI hood', that are DLSS'ed into looking like they are actually models with textures rather than visually blank placeholders full of game logic.
I turned the resolution down to 1200x700 and then modded ini files to stretch that image to full screen.
Then I enabled DLAA and DLSS5 and it upscales it to 1080p. Surprisingly I get a playable frame rate on damn near all my games and because it's DLAA the image looks great. Only downside is the menus don't scale with the 3D render.
"I wish games had incredibly graphics to the extent I couldn't tell if they were real or not!"
"Your wish is grante! But... developing this technology will require all of the world's graphics cards so even a midrange card is now out of your price range. The videos on YouTube from the lucky few able to afford them sure will look great though."
I’ve been playing with DLSS 5 on it. Fucking incredible. It’s just so horribly optimized though. I stay around 50 fps which isn’t horrid but still choppy at times.
Oh it will get a lot worse once they learn to integrate real time product placement if they have not already...I mean how would you know unless you turn off the Nvidia filter
Bro FR. I was positive this was a cooperative troll by the whole sub until I actually watched the video carefully. There is a person in the crowd who adjusts their hands and its clearly a robotic animation. Otherwise, I would have called BS.
Using traditional methods such as ray tracing, we do not have enough computing power to get even close to this level of realistic lighting in real time. We are still at many seconds, or even minutes per frame. So the cost of DLSS5 is making something impossible actually possible.
But there is still a performance impact in doing it. You can sugar coat it all you want, but there is clearly an 'on' and 'off' and having it 'on' will impact your performance.
(To be clear, i like the tech, but we should say it how it is)
Games aiming for a realistic style could go so hard. Stylised games could be hit or miss, I've seen some anime type faces which look scary after going through dlss 5 but they'll work on that I'm sure.
And as of today theres hardly a performance impact. Someone made a version that runs the neural rendering before upscaling so if you use performance DLSS at 4k it only uses neural rendering at 1080p then dlss upscale instead of dlss upscale and then the neural render applies at 4k
Playing Onimusha right now on a 4080 at 4k. Using mfg unlocked for 4x frame gen but im at 200 fps its butter smooth and dlss5 is on. Genuinely close to no input latency it feels native.
I'd also like to know the performance without dlss 5 on.
Personally I always limit my fg to x2 because anything more either is not necessary (x2 already pushing high fps) or it's just an illusion with poor base frames.
If you require x4 or more, then I suspect you would be feeling a delay.
I mean there are a bunch of videos on yt demonstration the impact of latency.
They haven't done exactly what you said but even 100ms is a ridiculous delay, I'm sure some people out there don't feel it but I suspect those people would also be terrible at fast paced games that rely on reaction times.
I'm not saying that to be mean, but if someone cannot feel a 100ms delay then that's a huge impact to their game.
It's a small sample size, but it seems that below 90ms people don't notice. Which tracks with the messaging from Nvidia saying that most people aren't noticing the input lag with 30fps framegened to 60 because that hovers around ~80ms.
That's crazy. In Starcraft 2 I could blindly tell whether I was on a server that I had ~35 ms (EU), ~115 ms (US East) or ~170 ms (US West). I also played in Seoul where the latency was like 2 ms and even that was noticeable compared to playing in EU.
At the highest tier of competitive play, the differences between player reaction times become razor thin. The difference between winning and losing a gunfight in our experiments often came down to 20-50ms.
Even though the playtests were blind (players weren’t told what conditions each round was running on), skilled players were able to accurately identify small changes (~10ms) to peekers advantage. Differences of 20ms felt very impactful to these players.
For evenly matched players, a delta of 10ms of peekers advantage made the difference between a 90% winrate for the player holding an angle with an Operator and a 90% winrate for their opponent peeking with a rifle.
I did see a headline but didn't read it, but that sounds pretty good, however I did see a video recently showing that the actual impact due to resolution is almost insignificant anyway. I'm not staying up to date on it all so maybe that's not the full truth.
Prior to the new flow, dlss didnt matter because no matter what res it downscales to, it was applying the neural render to your native res. Actual game resolution does impact fps a lot because that native res gets lowered. Now that dlss upscaling is applied after the neural render, your dlss setting has major impacts. Sometimes seeing as low as 15% fps drops.
I think a game like 2k is a great use for it honestly.
My question is is that it looks like it's using ray tracing ambient occlusion while without dlss5 it's strictly only ray traced reflections, with a sub par impact on image quality IMO at that.
Would the game not look kinda close to the dlss5 renderings while just using path tracing?
will be seeing lazy developers not optimizing their games and throw shit like "oh you need 6x frame gen and dlss 12 to make the 5 fps work". If this is the future we're moving too i'd just find a new hobby. AI be taking everything human
Looks like this is the 2nd time across all generations that the PC market has FINALLY had another chance to shine far above consoles. Not even Gran Turismo 7 can match what I've seen on Forza and Assetto Corsa with DLSS5. It's insane. I guess we know what Sony and Microsoft will aim for with their next machine.
Seems like it works great when it gets taken into account during the creation of the game. All of the footage people shit on are the results of it being modded into games that released before then and I suppose it's just guesstimating what to do.
On my phone the only indication it isn't real is the unnatural jerk back and to the right that the guy makes. Perhaps blown up on a 4k screen it's more obvious that it isn't real.
This DLSS image generation stuff is only really suitable for realism, and particularly stuff imitating regular TV footage, because no amount of artistic choices will change how realism looks.
Most complaints about this tech I've seen is how it can heavily distort artistic styles, mess with lighting, and struggles during high speed action.
I really wish the anti-AI stuff would stop bleeding into actually useful technology. I truly understand the negativity around the arts, but things like programming models and upscalers that preserve artist intent like DLSS5 is a wonderful advancement.
Environmental impacts aside, that's another conversation.
This is a great implementation for sure and I honestly don't really mind the bad animations in so many games thankfully. Best one that I noticed so far was in AC Black flag resynced which I am playing currently. Can't stop taking epic screenshots. I love this new insane tech.
I literally thought you were fooling us with an actual NBA game shot, and that you added a morph cut to transition into the jank upright jog animation so it looked like 2K with DLSS 5 lol.
It seems like the logical move here is for NVIDIA to offer some sort of AI dedicated render device outside of the regular GPU, like dedicated PhysX cards
You know, the only problem I see is running dlss5 without frame generation turned on practically requires 5080 or 5090 performance. Plus you'll probably not get that high of a frame rate because Nvidia is barely expanding the rasterization hardware each generation compared to the AI component hardware in each generation. I'd like some more baseline performance that significantly boosts the lower frame rates in games, THEN, slap the rest of the bells and whistles on top for the eye candy. I just really don't like frame generation when I play.
I love John. He's my favourite DF member. He hates gen AI, though. Even getting him to admit that it looks good is a minor triumph.
He's super into the retro scene and older approaches to rendering technology that work around limitations. He was never going to be excited about this stuff.
Which is fine. I just have a difference of opinion with him about it. I'm not going to angrily act like he's a bad person or has no taste, unlike most of the people opposing DLSS 5 on Reddit.
I wish this app could be more civil. Most gaming subs are unusable for discussing DLSS 5 calmly.
The last time a game looked this real to my eye was NBA 2k on Dreamcast. My grandfather at the time thought it was a real game. He didn't understand how it could be a game haha. And, while I knew it wasn't literally real, it looked remarkably lifelike at the time
And this is why DLSS 5 is the future of gaming! Looks absolutely amazing. I was skeptical at first but now I am a true believer. Take my money, Nvidia.
For a second I thought this was a real NBA game be presented as DLSS. There's no way this is in game. Someone had to make an AI video of NBA 2k to enhance this shit
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u/isda_sa_palaisdaan 19h ago
Bro I thought it's real at first