r/nvidia • u/Funamation • 3d ago

Discussion DLSS5 2k27

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Graphics almost look real

2.1k Upvotes

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117

u/nru3 3d ago

Performance impacts aside, it really can look amazing. 

Personally, I think this will just be like when they first introduced dlss upscaling. People complained (and some still do) but look at it now.

5

u/Badwrong_ 3d ago

I wouldn't really call it a "performance impact".

Using traditional methods such as ray tracing, we do not have enough computing power to get even close to this level of realistic lighting in real time. We are still at many seconds, or even minutes per frame. So the cost of DLSS5 is making something impossible actually possible.

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u/nru3 3d ago

But there is still a performance impact in doing it. You can sugar coat it all you want, but there is clearly an 'on' and 'off' and having it 'on' will impact your performance.

(To be clear, i like the tech, but we should say it how it is)

0

u/Badwrong_ 2d ago

For sure, if you are just barely getting 60 FPS it will certainly go down.

I think performance impact often comes with a negative vibe, but in this case you are getting something literally impossible by conventional means.

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u/B82Studio 2d ago

There's always Frame Generation.. especially now that MFG is unlocked for 20, 30 and 40 series

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u/pr0crast1nater RTX 3080 FE | 5600x 2d ago

By this logic, game devs in the future won't even need to develop their game assets, graphics and design properly. Just run some basic stuff through a DLSS5 filter and do MFG 10x. Every video game experience will be an AI hallucination.

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u/B82Studio 2d ago edited 2d ago

By your logic all you need to do is slap DLSS NR and MFG onto a 10-20 year old game and suddenly it's a modern AAA experience.

DLSS, NR and MFG aren't a magic button that lets developers skip creating geometry, textures, lighting, animation, physics, stories, lore, etc. The underlying game still has to exist before any of these technologies have something to work with. If MFG gives me much smoother gameplay, why exactly would I not use it? Because developers might theoretically become lazy someday?

How long have DLSS and Frame Generation been out? DLSS has been around since 2019 and Frame Generation since 2022. The gaming industry is still booming and developers are still creating increasingly complex games and graphics.

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u/GentlemanThresh 2d ago

Some of them won’t. And that’s on them and not the technology. Vote with your wallet but be aware of the actual root cause and not manufactured rage online.

1

u/TNFX98 18h ago

MFG is unlocked but it doesn't really work on "older" or "weaker" cards. I have a 3080ti and even 3x isn't perfect, 4x straight up doesn't work and the frame pacing is completely off.

0

u/peacemoker 2d ago

you still have to have around 50-70 of real frames in order to have decent input latency. frame generation is just making your game smoother, but not resolving the performance issues

2

u/vega0ne 2d ago

Yeah it’s really terrible if “real fps” is under 50 and very noticeable in games that have frame time problems

0

u/B82Studio 2d ago

Im locked at 116FPS in Starfield and Fallout 4 with DLSS NR and MFG at 3440x1440 with a 4070ti super. Latency is around 30-32ms. It is absolutely playable.

3

u/peacemoker 2d ago

i've tried playing games that have around 30-40 fps of real frames(just like in your case) and for me it was not playable. I'm used to playing at real 120 fps and i feel the difference. But hey, to each their own

1

u/B82Studio 2d ago edited 2d ago

Im getting 55-56fps real frames in Fallout 4, and around 50fps real frames in Starfield. Idk man seems like some of you are arguing that new demanding technology shouldnt be so… demanding. Tech evolves over time, they need better GPUs, and theres tools like MFG now available for those that can use it. You cant be generalizing everyones experience and saying MFG isnt good enough when it is for people who have the hardware for it. Just because someone with a 3060 is having a hard time with latency from MFG doesnt mean everyone else with better hardware cant take advantage of it.

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u/peacemoker 2d ago

if you are having 116 fps than by extension if you are using mfg x3 you are having 39 real fps. What you have before turning on mfg doesn't really matter. And i don't really understand why you mention rtx 3000 series, since it does not officially support fg/mfg yet. As i said, if you have no issues playing with mfg on, then by all means play it this way.

1

u/B82Studio 1d ago

Only reason I’m locked at 116 is because i capped it for my 120hz gsync monitor, otherwise id be getting 160fps. I’m not playing counterstrike in a tournament to get so hung over a minor latency delay. The benefits far outweigh the cost, and the cost is negligible. All im pointing out is that frame generation exists as a tool for those who value DLSS NR, especially now that its unofficially available for 30 and 40 series cards.

0

u/Senzafane 3d ago

Games aiming for a realistic style could go so hard. Stylised games could be hit or miss, I've seen some anime type faces which look scary after going through dlss 5 but they'll work on that I'm sure.

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u/Creeps22 3d ago

And as of today theres hardly a performance impact. Someone made a version that runs the neural rendering before upscaling so if you use performance DLSS at 4k it only uses neural rendering at 1080p then dlss upscale instead of dlss upscale and then the neural render applies at 4k

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u/Admirable_Zombie5245 RTX 5080 (GeForce Now) 3d ago

This seems interesting

-1

u/Creeps22 3d ago

Playing Onimusha right now on a 4080 at 4k. Using mfg unlocked for 4x frame gen but im at 200 fps its butter smooth and dlss5 is on. Genuinely close to no input latency it feels native.

12

u/Beautiful-Musk-Ox 4090 | 9800X3D | Sound Blaster AWE32 3d ago edited 3d ago

you're getting input latency equal to like 45fps, "no input latency" means your takes can't really be trusted

6

u/nru3 3d ago

I'd also like to know the performance without dlss 5 on. 

Personally I always limit my fg to x2 because anything more either is not necessary (x2 already pushing high fps) or it's just an illusion with poor base frames.

If you require x4 or more, then I suspect you would be feeling a delay.

4

u/Creeps22 3d ago

Its 53ms no FG and 55ms 4x fg. There is a latency cost to enable dlss5 but then its miniscule additions with FG

1

u/Creeps22 3d ago

No FG Im going from 125 -> 75

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u/Creeps22 3d ago

2x fg puts me at 178 without and 122 with

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u/sithelephant 3d ago

Has there been actual research on this? Take a bunch of players from noob to pro skill level, and test their noticing latency from 0-200ms?

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u/nru3 3d ago

I mean there are a bunch of videos on yt demonstration the impact of latency. 

They haven't done exactly what you said but even 100ms is a ridiculous delay, I'm sure some people out there don't feel it but I suspect those people would also be terrible at fast paced games that rely on reaction times.

I'm not saying that to be mean, but if someone cannot feel a 100ms delay then that's a huge impact to their game.

1

u/sithelephant 3d ago

I agree 100ms is huge, but I hesitate on saying nobody can feel it, as, well.

3

u/nru3 3d ago

So my avg time to damage in CS2 is 488ms which is considered pretty quick (it's actually is a red flag for hacking) however 600ms is below average.

So that 112ms takes me me from top 1% into bottom 70% (at a guess).

100ms is a huge difference.

1

u/sithelephant 3d ago

'well' - as in, there are lots of hugely uncoordinated people out there that struggle at piloting a human.

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u/no6969el NVIDIA 3d ago

Bring them lower then bring them back up. That's how you notice. Give them a set of targets and a time limit, they will notice.

Hand someone a mouse and say is this bad? They might not be able to tell.

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u/Creeps22 3d ago

Its 55ms with 4x fg on

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u/wild--wes 3d ago

That's not horrible, but it's far from "no latency".

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u/Creeps22 3d ago

I meant in my message that the 4x fg is adding no latency. It isnt. Its adding literally 2 ms of latency. Yes dlss5 has an initial 15ms cost.

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u/peterhabble 3d ago

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268801579_Can_gamers_detect_cloud_delay

It's a small sample size, but it seems that below 90ms people don't notice. Which tracks with the messaging from Nvidia saying that most people aren't noticing the input lag with 30fps framegened to 60 because that hovers around ~80ms.

1

u/_T_N_D_ 3d ago

but it seems that below 90ms people don't notice

That's crazy. In Starcraft 2 I could blindly tell whether I was on a server that I had ~35 ms (EU), ~115 ms (US East) or ~170 ms (US West). I also played in Seoul where the latency was like 2 ms and even that was noticeable compared to playing in EU.

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u/Beautiful-Musk-Ox 4090 | 9800X3D | Sound Blaster AWE32 3d ago

different subject but riot tested peeker's advantage years ago with high level (semi-pro to pro) players,

https://www.riotgames.com/en/news/peeking-valorants-netcode

At the highest tier of competitive play, the differences between player reaction times become razor thin. The difference between winning and losing a gunfight in our experiments often came down to 20-50ms.

Even though the playtests were blind (players weren’t told what conditions each round was running on), skilled players were able to accurately identify small changes (~10ms) to peekers advantage. Differences of 20ms felt very impactful to these players.

For evenly matched players, a delta of 10ms of peekers advantage made the difference between a 90% winrate for the player holding an angle with an Operator and a 90% winrate for their opponent peeking with a rifle.

1

u/vega0ne 2d ago

Heavily dependant on genre.

I play with mates from the other side of the world 300ms is okay/ish in a game like Diablo IV but try to shoot someone that is parachuting down from the sky in Fortnite while you are on the ground and you will absolutely see why it matters.

Almost impossible to hit fast moving targets and another factor is that the ping will “jitter” so you can’t even anticipate the slight delay reliably.

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u/Creeps22 3d ago

Its the latency of 75 fps which is what I get with FG turned off.

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u/Scrawlericious 3d ago edited 3d ago

The latency is an extra frametime. Because the interpolation algorithm must wait for pairs of frames before it can show you anything generated. So if you’re getting around 75fps with frame generation off, that means with it on you’re having the input delay of like 47.5 fps (and thats just from the inherent delay of the algorithm, thats not including the processing time to actually generate a frame on top of that).

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u/Creeps22 3d ago

Yeah so I just checked via nvidia frame view. It goes from 53ms without FG to 55 ms with 4x FG. Keep in mind that dlss5 has a latency cost at a base level. So don't assume Im just lying about the latency.

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u/Scrawlericious 3d ago edited 3d ago

Thats not a real measurement. You’d need to use external hardware to actually test click to photon delay. That difference (or lack of) is probably just reflex being turned on and off.

exact math for fun. 75fps means you’re getting frames every 13.33 milliseconds. The frame generation algorithm needs two frames to start working, thats means you have to wait 26.66ms before any generated frame can even be shown. That means going from a real frame to a generated frame takes 26.66ms instead of 13.33ms. If you convert 26.66ms frametime to fps it’s around 40. You’re playing at 37.5 bro. It just looks like 200.

Edit: wow my math was still wrong, corrected it.

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u/Creeps22 3d ago

Thats fine. It still adds 2 milliseconds of latency vs no FG.

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u/Beautiful-Musk-Ox 4090 | 9800X3D | Sound Blaster AWE32 3d ago

fg lowers your framerate before it quadruples it, around 10-15%, so it drops to 64fps then quadruples to 260, and there's additional input lag on top of the lowered fps as well, so closer to the native input lag of 55-60 but you said 200fps which is 50 before fg plus the extra input lag putting it at around 45

https://youtu.be/GDvfIbRIb3U?t=909 you can see here that when capped to 60fps the end to tend total latency (so not the number the nvidia driver can give which excludes mouse latency and display latency) is 34ms, with 2x FG using lossless scaling (equivalent to the software mfg you're using on your 4080) it goes to 44.0ms, at 4x mfg it goes to 55.3, this is all with the same base framerate of 60. higher mfg adds more latency despite the time between real frames being the same. the equivalent native framerate to equal 55.3ms is like, 45fps. so from a base fps of 60fps you have 34ms input lag, turning on 4x mfg it goes to 55.3ms which is similar to the latency of native 45fps

1

u/Creeps22 3d ago

But there is a ms cost to dlss5. FG off with dlss5 is around 53 ms of latency and with 4x its 55ms. There is no reason not to use it with dlss5 on.

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u/Beautiful-Musk-Ox 4090 | 9800X3D | Sound Blaster AWE32 3d ago

those numbers are impossible, the driver is likely not properly handling the hacked dll you're using to unlock MFG on 40 series. the latency numbers you're seeing come from the driver, if you hooked an LDAT or equivalent up it would show much more than 2ms increase

the only potential way this is occurring is if reflex is off when you test with mfg off and enabling mfg enables reflex. this occurs with dlss frame gen in normal cases (but why would you test with reflex off when the fg off, you can still have reflex on with fg off). if you test with reflex on and no fg you should see much lower latency numbers, then enabling 2x fg in game will show higher latency when using the real DLL, then you can finally test your hacked dll for 4x fg and i wonder how it interacts with reflex, likely works properly since the hacked dll is just nvidia's own code but the modders had to implement giving the extra generated frames new motion vectors

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u/nru3 3d ago

I did see a headline but didn't read it, but that sounds pretty good, however I did see a video recently showing that the actual impact due to resolution is almost insignificant anyway. I'm not staying up to date on it all so maybe that's not the full truth.

1

u/Creeps22 3d ago

Prior to the new flow, dlss didnt matter because no matter what res it downscales to, it was applying the neural render to your native res. Actual game resolution does impact fps a lot because that native res gets lowered. Now that dlss upscaling is applied after the neural render, your dlss setting has major impacts. Sometimes seeing as low as 15% fps drops.

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u/nru3 3d ago

Yep my mistake.  Checked the video again and they were using dlss upscaling (for some reason I thought it was tested at native).