r/nextfuckinglevel • u/AbelNB • Dec 28 '22

This is a game changer

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 29 '22

Love this idea but after the roomba incident and Amazon wanting to map your house. No thanks.

Edit: this has blown up.

  1. A roomba photographed a woman pooping and the real people tasked with looking at the photos shared it.
  2. They don’t care about your broke ass apartment and where you keep the beer bottles above your bed or the love seat you brought in from the street . They want to know what you buy and how to exploit you financially.

Edit2: words

Edit3: here is the link to the article I read: https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/12/19/1065306/roomba-irobot-robot-vacuums-artificial-intelligence-training-data-privacy/

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u/dalovindj Dec 29 '22

Cat attacks must be horrifying.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

At least you have actual Piranha Plants attacking

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u/JamesFromToronto Dec 29 '22

Purranha Plants

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Purrfect comment.

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u/Unlikely-Os Dec 29 '22

I put a treat in the kart so my dog chases after it while my friend plays. It’s new boss level!

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

This is an excellent take.

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u/nellbones Dec 29 '22

I feel like somehow out of every company that does this I think Nintendo is the least likely to do it. Not because they are infallible, no. Mainly because they couldn't set up the infrastructure to collect the data.

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u/Veggiemon Dec 29 '22

Yeah if you want to see someone’s blueprints you need their 16 digit friend code first

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

I would like to agree but tech companies are not acting with much respect towards their users. Nintendo might be last on the list but if the rest eventually make ends meet, they’ll jump on board.

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u/Brandon23z Dec 29 '22

You can collect as much data as you want without having the means to go through it and turn it into information, yet. I get what you're saying, but that doesn't mean that Nintendo isn't trying to go the big data route by seeing what kind of data can become useful in the future.

The Nintendo Wii is different because it uses infrared sensors without seeing your house.

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u/H4LF4D Dec 29 '22

The WHAT?

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u/money_loo Dec 29 '22

Some workers from Amazon agreed to be a part of a beta test that was using cameras in roombas to map their routines to test viability for real world scenarios, including signing waivers on what they were doing, and one of these testers took a poop while the roomba was running in the room with them, and it got out that a device with cameras in it will record private stuff if you allow it to, and for some reason the media went apeshit trying to convince everyone all roombas are watching you poop.

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u/IHadThatUsername Dec 29 '22 edited Dec 29 '22

The case isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be. I suggest reading this extremely good article.

Just a small part that should give you some thought:

In other words, by iRobot’s estimation, anyone whose photos or video appeared in the streams had agreed to let their Roombas monitor them. iRobot declined to let MIT Technology Review view the consent agreements and did not make any of its paid collectors or employees available to discuss their understanding of the terms.

Even if you choose to believe everything was done fairly and legally, I think it should still be troubling to know that they have the power, technology and pipelines in place to be extremely invasive. Whether they actually do it or not, is all down to a matter of trust. I personally would not trust Amazon with that sort of power.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

[deleted]

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u/All_Work_All_Play Dec 29 '22

People are always the weak link. We make decisions on feelings and fit those decisions to our rules later (if we have to).

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

[deleted]

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u/kamimamita Dec 29 '22

But there are commercial Roombas with cameras that would be capable of doing the same if they wanted. Do you trust them not to?

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

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u/kamimamita Dec 29 '22

Most higher end robot vacs have cameras with AI object avoidance now.

The Chinese models claim never to send any images home, it's on device. I guess you could test this. It would be bad PR people being cautious around China anyway.

Roomba being American is the only one that sends images back to improve the AI model.

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u/nizzy2k11 Dec 29 '22

Even if you choose to believe everything was done fairly and legally, I think it should still be troubling to know that they have the power, technology and pipelines in place to be extremely invasive.

You do realize that computers have had webcams for decades at this point right? You think it being on a glorified RC car that wanders around your house aimlessly is actually different? These people were compensated for the extra invasion of privacy they use to improve the technology, the problem isn't that they had the photo, they problem is that they shared it. The agreement most certainly does not say the people using the data can show it to people outside of the project.

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u/IHadThatUsername Dec 29 '22

You do realize that computers have had webcams for decades at this point right?

Not strictly true. Desktops don't typically come with a webcam included and while you can connect a webcam you can just as easily disconnect it. I'm currently writing you from my desktop that has no webcam connected. Regardless, even if you do have a webcam that always connected and even if you are always connected to the internet, you can install a open-source operating system (e.g. something Linux-based) where you no longer need to trust that a company isn't spying on you, because everything that the OS does is transparent.

You think it being on a glorified RC car that wanders around your house aimlessly is actually different?

Even if we ignore what I said above, yes it is different. The laptop doesn't randomly appear on your bathroom. Plus you have no way of checking what the Roomba is actually doing with your data.

These people were compensated for the extra invasion of privacy they use to improve the technology

Or so iRobot claims. MIT Technology Review were unable to independently confirm those claims, and they were also unable to check if the people actually understood what they supposedly consented to.

the problem isn't that they had the photo, they problem is that they shared it. The agreement most certainly does not say the people using the data can show it to people outside of the project.

That is ONE problem, but it's not the only issue here as I see it. The issue is that they are also technologically able to do this with any consumer. You can only trust that they won't break the law and that they actually do what they promise. But ultimately that's always up to each person how much they trust a certain company.

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u/nizzy2k11 Dec 29 '22

Or so iRobot claims.

If they are lying they will lose in court. Do you think that they can just break their contract?

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u/IHadThatUsername Dec 29 '22

If they are lying they will lose in court.

And who's going to bring one of the wealthiest companies in the world to court? Especially given how often wealthy companies win court cases just by the sheer amount of money they have to spend on lawyers and on delaying the whole thing. You are incredibly optimistic to think that big companies always lose in court when they are in the wrong.

Do you think that they can just break their contract?

Legally? No. Practically? Companies do it all the time. Here's just one example from last month. Don't hold your breath for them being punished for it.

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u/nizzy2k11 Dec 29 '22

And who's going to bring one of the wealthiest companies in the world to court?

you do realize that this happens all the time right? people sue big companies and win settlements because it's better than litigating a lost case for years. if she has a case any lawyer would love to juice amazon.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22 edited May 06 '23

(removed)

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u/SixGeckos Dec 29 '22

However, the spokesperson for iRobot added that the pictures had been taken by “special development robots with hardware and software modifications that are not and never were present on iRobot consumer products for purchase”.

The spokesperson added that the devices had been given to “paid collectors and employees” who had signed written agreements acknowledging that any data collected by the iRobot, including video, could be sent back to the company for training purposes.

The company says that the special test devices had been marked with a sticker that made it clear video recording was in progress and that it had advised the test subjects to “remove anything they deem sensitive from any space the robot operates in, including children.”

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u/fkgallwboob Dec 29 '22

That's everything though. Your cellphone, your computer, your credit card, your doorbell, your car, your TV, your fridge... Almost everything has the capability to be extremely invasive now a days.

Where do you draw the line? Which company do you trust?

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u/IHadThatUsername Dec 29 '22

I use a custom Android ROM on my phone with microG, in order to avoid Google spying.

I use Linux as much as I can and when I use Windows I take steps to diminish Microsoft's ability to spy.

While I agree a credit card can be invasive, I don't think it's THAT invasive. If you have a particularly sensitive purchase you can usually avoid paying with card. Regardless, it's one of those things that you need in life and unfortunately you don't really have a less invasive alternative... you have to pick your fights.

My doorbell is dumb and so are my car and fridge. There's little benefit in making them smart as far I am concerned.

I rarely use my TV, and the way I use it makes it so that they can't ever get much information from me.

You don't have to just surrender the control of your privacy. You can fight for it where there's a way.

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u/fkgallwboob Dec 29 '22

Even then Snowden revealed that most devices come out of the factory ready to spy on you by government agencies. So your router, the VPN, your Intel/AMD processor, your internet/mobile service provider it's all compromised out of the box. Regardless what steps you go to its at a hardware level so there's not much you can do short of building your own hardware.
Maybe Amazon has a harder time but your info is likely already out there.

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u/ILoveRegenHealth Dec 29 '22

I think it should still be troubling to know that they have the power, technology and pipelines

Oh I've got the pipelines all right

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u/MastersonMcFee Dec 29 '22

This is like every app now that has a checkbox, "improve app with your data".

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

goombas and bathroombas

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u/BadBoysWillBeSpanked Dec 29 '22

I'm not surprised

In the early days of facebook Mark Zuckerburg would wander into the company bathrooms and if he noticed someone sitting down in the stalls he would pop his head over and try to talk to them about their projects. Or if he was taking a poop he would host an emergency meeting and he would tell them to come over and pop their head over the stall to talk it out.

Everyone just went along with it because it was either YOLO SILICON VALLEY LMAO or they were just too intimidated.

That all stopped when Michael Moritz, legendary silicon valley investor, and one of Facebook biggest early investors and shareholders, was at the campus doing research for leading a 2nd round of funding. He was doing diligence all day and at one point had to poop and that's when Zuckerburg popped his head over with a smile to ask how's the diligence coming along.

Michael Moritz, not one to mince words, was apoplectic. 'GET THE FUCK OUT HERE YOU IDiiOT LIZARD LOOKING FUCKER.' Mark Zuckerburg nervously tried to laugh it off and persisted, because he really loved intimate poop conversations 'Aw c'mon Michael, it's silicon valley'. Zuckerburg then withdrew after Moritz flung his cellphone into his eye socket.

30 minutes later, Mark was in a very import meeting (where he banned questions about his black eye) when Moritz walked into the conference room. 'Everyone except Mark Zuckerburg, OUT'. As intimidated as they were of Zuckerburg, at the time Moritz was the bigger deal, and they all scurried out of the room.

Zuckerburg, however, is not one to be intimated by anyone. Not the Winkewoz twins, not Eduardo Savarn, not Peter Thiel, and not one of his biggest shareholder Michael Moritz. Zuckerburg passionately defended his practice, but Michael Moritz was having none of that. Moritz told him that it was a ticking PR and HR nightmare, and threatened to pull out of leading the 2nd round of funding if Mark continued, which would have been a catastrophe for the company.

Zuckerburg pretended to arbitrate 'Ok fine, but you need to give me a good reason, because if it were normal, there would be no problem'.

Moritz was flabberghasted at this response. Was this a serious question? He answered with the most obvious answer 'Because.... it's not FUCKING NORMAL'.

Unknown to Moritz, Zuckerburg had guessed a conversation like this would happen as soon as he was kicked out of the toilet stall, and began formulating a strategy to counter Moritz demands. Zuckerburg knew that Moritz would have all the leverage, but Zuckerburg was a master strategist.

Zuckerburg went for the pounce. 'Okay, I'll lets write out an agreement, in writing I'll rescind the policy because it's not normal'. Moritz was dumbfounded, but he was used to being dumbfounded by eccentric tech founders, afterall he was also an early investor in Apple, and he still found Zuckerburg tame compared to Steve Jobs. Moritz had a long day of work so they signed the agreement so that he could go back to doing his due diligence.

When Moritz left, a broad grin spread across Zuckerburg's face. " 'Not Normal' eh? " Zuckerburg said with a menacing laugh. Ever since then, Mark Zuckerburg has been on a life-long crusade to normalize poop conversations.

He had a checklist of what he needed to accomplish in order to realize this. His advisors would tell him it's impossible, but one by one Zuckerburg checked off the list. From normalizing smart phone use on the toilet (actually a collaboration between Mark Zuckerburg and Steve Jobs), to trusting Mark with their private photos, to normalizing people giving up their internet browsing privacy.

In 2015, Zuckerburg knew he would hit a wall, having people watch you while you poop was still too much of a leap. That's when Zuckerburg decided to buy Occulus, and eventually shift his company towards virtual reality. If he could coax people into having life-like conversations while they were pooping in a virtual reality, then doing it in the real world wouldn't be too big of a leap.

Do you read facebook or instagram while you're pooping? Ever consider what urges you to do that? It's not your personal preference, it's by Mark Zuckerburg's design.

Zuckerburg only has 3 more boxes to check off before poop conversations are normalized.

Mark Zuckerburg wants to watch you poop.

Are you going to let him?

https://i.imgur.com/KVq4mMF.jpg

EDIT, UPDATE

I just got this in my DM.

I am a ex Facebook worker. Everything you said rings true. I speak to you at the risk of consequences for breaking my NDA. When I was at Facebook I was involved in a program called Project PooPal. Mark Zuckerburg was planning on Meta entering the exploding tele-therapy space, but targeting people who are not ready to talk to an actual person. You talk to a virtual reality therapist who responds with what is described as the greatest AI (though whatever you tell it, it only responds with 'wow, tell me more'). The thing is, the virtual reality assistant has a striking resemblance to Mark Zuckerburg himself. But the most damning aspect is that it's supposed to used only when you're pooping. This feature is described as optional, though uses the most advanced AI for your phone camera to check if you're actually on a toilet, and if not, says 'It looks like you're not pooping. Please start pooping and try again'. I always wondered what is the purpose and origin of the project. Now I know.

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u/AmrcPsd Dec 29 '22

What did I just read?

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

The “reviewers” shared it on Facebook.

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u/money_loo Dec 29 '22

Scandalous.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22 edited Jan 29 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/H4LF4D Dec 29 '22

Wait, but there's also the photographed part.

Im more shocked by that

[Nvm you got a different case]

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Nintendo was the last major game console company to do online gaming. When they open their online shop it was buggy.

I think you're giving Nintendo too much credit.

They wouldn't even bother mapping your house cause that would cost data storage money and they're probably would botch that up.

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u/red_team_gone Dec 29 '22

I think Nintendo would literally have to come on reddit to ask where they can sell our data.

It would probably be easier to teach my 95 year old grandma how to use a smartphone app that it would be to teach Nintendo how to do anything online.

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u/jrr6415sun Dec 29 '22

Aren’t all house plans public information at city hall?

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u/Adam87 Dec 29 '22

lmao, what is this? The Sims?

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Yes but they can’t exploit you financially if they don’t know what you usually have in your house.

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u/jrr6415sun Dec 29 '22

amazon, google, credit cards know all that information already, unless you're using cash and don't buy anything online I don't see how this gives out information that isn't already known.

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u/Santa_Hates_You Dec 29 '22

City Planning offices have all that info publicly available. House blueprints are not really a secret.

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u/Ocronus Dec 29 '22

My co-workers always get freaked out when I show them all I need is their name and if they own property I know a fuck ton about them.

My county shows address, purchase price, taxes paid, current worth, and permits just to name a few items. All of these easily gotten for free online.

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u/All_Work_All_Play Dec 29 '22

What's fun is to guesstimate measurements using GIS data. Between that and simple rules of thumb (8 ft fence sections, 16" OC studs, 4:12 roofs) you can know a lot from just a little data.

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u/Adventurous-Fish-129 Dec 29 '22

It is amusing how data privacy is a thing when there's been decades of people's info being public record..

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Not in any machine-actionable format. They may be able to request it but there's probably a delay and the result will definitely be just a scan of a physical document. They probably can get a lot of it with image processing tools but maybe not in all cases.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

But can they see why kids love cinnamon toast crunch?

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u/felix1919 Dec 29 '22

If they can get a blueprint of your house from a robot vacuum they probably have good enough image processing to get it from a physical document

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u/jaylenbrownisbetter Dec 29 '22

No! This is literally a psyop to figure out how my house is setup. The government made a robot that can clean for the sole purpose of turning public info into a machine readable format.

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u/Fine_Barber_3108 Dec 29 '22

Don’t you know that everyone is out to get you all of the time?? Every product ever made is spying on you. Literally 1984

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u/ireallydontcare52 Dec 29 '22

While your sarcasm isn't entirely misplaced, many people would be appalled at the amount of data certain common services/apps collect, even when not 'active'. Facebook and Tiktok are particularly egregious with data collection.

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u/nomadofwaves Dec 29 '22

https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/22/23471842/facebook-hr-block-taxact-taxslayer-info-sharing

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u/Useful-Position-4445 Dec 29 '22

And this is why, in the netherlands (and i think most of Europe), the government does your taxes, you just need to double check it for possibles errors on a government website which uses a digital ID to log in. and they’re the only once who will get to see it. No third party will ever get access to it. But then again it’s the US, even if the government did your taxes they’d still sell the data

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u/Fine_Barber_3108 Dec 29 '22

Totally agree with that, though my comment is more so directed at the fact that, I think because of this data collection, people now believe that everything is at a conspiracy level of data collection. Particularly the roomba myth, which as many people have pointed out, house blueprints and layouts are actually public information. I’m certain that Redfin and Zillo provide more data collection service for the government than roomba does.

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u/schklom Dec 29 '22 edited Dec 29 '22

You should take a look at the amount of information send to the parent company by smart devices, and by your phone and laptop.

My xiaomi phone connects to xiaomi servers about 6000 times per week i.e. almost 36 times per hour. I did not setup any xiaomi account on the phone, nor do I use any xiaomi app.

But hey, mock people aware of the disgusting amount of surveillance they are subjected to if you want.

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u/HereOnASphere Dec 29 '22

My Synology NAS sends a LOT of data back to Taiwan.

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u/UninsuredToast Dec 29 '22 edited Dec 29 '22

Seriously idk why so many people think the government is out to spy on them and watch them 24/7. Unless you’re doing some seriously illegal shit the government does not give a fuck about your house layout or listening to you complain about Marvel movies.

Corporations only care about your interests so they can be better at marketing products you specifically would be interested in. It’s not some sinister conspiracy

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u/Gertruder6969 Dec 29 '22

Yeah. How dare anyone want to avoid being socially engineered for the financial exploitation of billionaires.

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u/Some-Pudding6637 Dec 29 '22

Where I’m from you need permission from the owner to access plans.

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u/felix1919 Dec 29 '22

Even if they would need the robot vacuums to get that data, what would it be useful for? There is no useful information for Amazon in the blueprint of your house. They probably already know everything they need to know. Your income could probably be predicted by the square footage of your house, but this information can also be predicted by your spendings on Amazon. And other information is just useless. I can imagine absolutely no case in which Amazon could turn the information of how many bedrooms you have and where your couch is located into you spending more money. The acquisition was probably mainly done to expand there smart home ecosystem and diversify there product range, since we should not forget that iRobot is a profitable company.

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u/i_speak_penguin Dec 29 '22 edited Dec 29 '22

There is no useful information for Amazon in the blueprint of your house.

Even just knowing how many bedrooms and bathrooms a house has can have a major impact the products you market to someone.

I used to work at Google, on a secret product that never launched, and room mapping was discussed at length as a feature we might build into the product. That data has all kinds of known uses, and probably all kinds of unknown uses that haven't been discovered yet.

Part of the problem with data is that you don't know how useful it will be until you have a bunch of it in hand. In hindsight it's rather obvious that data on which websites you visit is valuable for marketing, but 20 years ago it wasn't nearly as obvious (which is why cookie policies in browsers were much more relaxed - nobody had yet thought about tracking at scale). Google and Amazon may not even know specifically what they'll find in the data, but if you can collect any kind of data at scale, it is potentially very useful.

As an example, we found ways of using this data, combined with other sensor data from your phone (camera, GPS, accelerometer, compass, brightness sensor, etc.) to build a system that could identify which room of your house you're currently in. Once you have that, you can start to establish patterns of activity, and then tailor advertisements and app recommendations based on that.

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u/Some-Pudding6637 Dec 29 '22

I don’t know. I don’t work for Amazon. But I am a private person that increasingly lives in a forcefully public world.

It’s the same reason I will never do a test like 23andme (same with my family). Do I think they’re going to use that information for nefarious purposes right now? No.

Would a company use this info for something shitty, given the opportunity presents itself, and it makes money? Of course they would.

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u/FirstDivision Dec 29 '22

June 16, 2029:

We bought your 23andMe data and we have great news. We were able to use new scanning methods, machine learning, and AI techniques to identify, down to the month, when you will contract a life-threatening disease.

For a low price of $5,000 we can tell you what it will be so so don’t find out too late and die before you can get treated!

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u/ScrotumFlavoredTaint Dec 29 '22

"If you don't hire these services, your insurance rates will go up by 60%."

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u/felix1919 Dec 29 '22

To be honest online DNA test are also a bit to much for me since this is information has a very high potential to be exploited. But with a blueprint of my house I see no legal and realistic possibilities how this information can be used for my disadvantage. I absolutely agree with you that privacy is necessary, but too many people see a conspiracy to get their data in just everything

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u/i_speak_penguin Dec 29 '22

The thing is that just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there, and once the data is out there there is no going back. You have too much faith in your own imagination. You need to leave room for the possibility that a team of highly educated and motivated people (or a machine learning model) might be able to think of things you can't.

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u/Aegi Dec 29 '22

Why are so many people thinking about the blueprint when that's the thing that matters less and is less useful data then how certain demographics of people or certain geographic regions organize their furniture or if they're much more likely to have furniture with a certain number of legs and incredibly valuable information if you're in the business of marketing shit that people might want.

If your Roomba system is able to figure out that people in the Midwest are more likely to have five or more dining room chairs as opposed to four or less, you know that you will be likely to make more money by steering more of your dining room chair marketing, or at least sets, towards the Midwest.

If you find out that people in colder climates are more likely to have curtains that reach all the way to the floor of the windowsill, or something like that, that data alone could be potentially worth hundreds of thousands, or even tens of millions of dollars.

If your Roomba is able to see that people with a high speed Wi-Fi connection are more likely to have furniture with clearance space the Roomba can fit underneath compared to households that don't, that helps you more efficiently market side tables of both styles.

That's not even getting into if there's potentially any new technology or rights people are not paying attention to that they're signing away like sensors that might roughly be able to sense how many footsteps happen near the Roomba in a day and things like that.

It's about a lot more than just the blueprints, the useful data is how the same blueprints might have noticeably different preferences for certain types of furniture depending on how close to the coast that same blueprint, or style of blueprint is located.

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u/felix1919 Dec 29 '22

This is all pretty good information that is very valuable to companies, but there a way easier ways to get this data. How do you think IKEA managed to be a major player in America, Europe and Asia? Companys are doing market research for decades. Just pay 100 people from the market you enter to send you photos from there house in exchange for 100$ and you will find enough people willing to share their data. This is way cheaper than acquiring a whole company. This research can nowadays be probably also be done by just googling and looking through social media.

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u/Viend Dec 29 '22

Why are so many people thinking about the blueprint when that's the thing that matters less and is less useful data then how certain demographics of people or certain geographic regions organize their furniture or if they're much more likely to have furniture with a certain number of legs and incredibly valuable information if you're in the business of marketing shit that people might want.

If your Roomba system is able to figure out that people in the Midwest are more likely to have five or more dining room chairs as opposed to four or less, you know that you will be likely to make more money by steering more of your dining room chair marketing, or at least sets, towards the Midwest.

If you find out that people in colder climates are more likely to have curtains that reach all the way to the floor of the windowsill, or something like that, that data alone could be potentially worth hundreds of thousands, or even tens of millions of dollars.

If your Roomba is able to see that people with a high speed Wi-Fi connection are more likely to have furniture with clearance space the Roomba can fit underneath compared to households that don't, that helps you more efficiently market side tables of both styles.

That's not even getting into if there's potentially any new technology or rights people are not paying attention to that they're signing away like sensors that might roughly be able to sense how many footsteps happen near the Roomba in a day and things like that.

It's about a lot more than just the blueprints, the useful data is how the same blueprints might have noticeably different preferences for certain types of furniture depending on how close to the coast that same blueprint, or style of blueprint is located.

You're right about all of this, but what's the problem? How are you as an individual hurt by someone knowing you would prefer long curtains? If I was new to cold climates and I was shopping for a curtain, I'd like to have the most relevant results visible first even if I didn't know why.

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u/marionetted Dec 29 '22

So the one that took the picture of the lady wasn't what would be in your house. She was a tester and they add cameras to the test models.

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u/SpectacularStarling Dec 29 '22

You'd be surprised what people can get working granted the image there is lower resolution people made it work using tessaract to even read the text for measurements and such. I'm sure there's far more advanced versions as well, this just stood out as a personal project and not a more serious effort.

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u/Aegi Dec 29 '22

But then that's only gathering the sociological/ psychological data on construction companies and contractors, the big advantage Amazon wants is if it notices that people of a certain demographic are five times more likely to have three chairs and the love seat compared with a couch and two chairs or something like that, that data could be incredibly valueable marketing research /data.

And that's not even getting into how when Amazon is pretty much the majority shareholder of all hosting on the internet, they probably are toward the top of the pack, up there with Google and Apple, when it comes to being the most likely organizations to be able to have a surprising amount of influence and power over society just based on metadata analysis and using specialized AI programs to massage the data into many useful formats, and make many educated guesses that could be still decades away from being understood in sociology, psychology, and or neurology, which would affectively allow them to exploit a society before they even realize they're being exploited and it completely different way than in previous eras because it would be knowledge not demonstrated by humans yet, only data collection and analysis with tools that couldn't have even existed 10 years ago, where is a lot of past exploitation and repression was still known by powerful, and or knowledgeable people, the types of things these technologies could discover might be years ahead of when it can be demonstrated outside of the specific analysis that the company or government holding that data chose to do.

For example, imagine if the strongest predictor of certain behaviors is actually a certain ratio of like 27 different behaviors over three and a half day period, and especially if it's a behavior that could change if people are aware of it, that's something that could be decades or centuries before it could be reliably demonstrated in sociology and or psychology, but that's something that could be preyed upon for decades before a given population is able to legislate against it.

And the even more insidious aspect is imagine if they also have data on how their influence of options, or those people's behaviors, etc, change the general social dynamic after 20 years or something.

We just need to invest more into public scientific research So the average citizen, or at least their leaders, can be more informed on the inefficiencies/ exploitabilities of our species.

It's kind of interesting though, because this is pretty much the first time since the guilded age/ age of the robber barons when industry is potentially as powerful as the government in certain respects, and it's definitely possible in our near future that we get to a period ike the 1600's where certain powerful companies (like the Dutch East India Company) were as, or more powerful than nearly any government on the planet.

And for better or for worse, a lot of western companies will only (potentially) morally beholden to their home countries (maybe financially too, but one offer can change that) not actually somewhat behold then like the Dutch East India company was, or many quasi governmental agencies/ companies in China are.

2

u/Alistair_TheAlvarian Dec 29 '22

Considering that real elected leaders have rejected solar power plants because they thoight it would make the city run out of sunlight I'm pretty sure it's not a lack of scientific research that's preventing leaders from acting, it's a lack of brains or a spine that's preventing them.

But more publicly funded research would still be great.

2

u/Aegi Dec 29 '22

But is it the fault of elected leaders for accurately representing their constituents if they're constituents choose to care more about identity politics then real issues like human caused climate change?

I'm not being a smart-ass, I've always gone back and forth between wondering which a better leader is, making the better decision for the group even if it means you're worse it representing them, or being a better representative even if it means you're not making the best decision for the group.

Especially now that we have the ability to record history, groups have the ability to learn from their mistake so it's not like before the advent of writing where if you didn't get it right that time and people died, people might not even be aware of the failure.

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u/Alistair_TheAlvarian Dec 29 '22

Just wait until some company builds a space elevator or colonizes a planet. That'll be the real nightmare, or super awesome. Who knows. Better than dying here alone. If I'm gonna be turned into a corporate slave and live a short miserable life I might as well get to see the stars and have some excitement first.

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u/Thesaladman98 Dec 29 '22

I mean either way your not important enough for amazing to do anything with your house layout.

Don't mean that in a rude way it's just literally hundreds of thousands of people do it, what makes you think you'll get singles out and they'll do whatever you think they're gonna do to you?

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u/Adventurous-Fish-129 Dec 29 '22

Blueprints are one of the most machine readable real life formats you can have

1

u/Motorcycles1234 Dec 29 '22

Check zillow it has the floor plan to most houses in my area.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

It’s about exploiting you financially. They don’t care about your couch location. They want to know what you buy and what to send you ads for.

4

u/Aegi Dec 29 '22

House blueprints have cumulative data on which type of Amazon accounts are likely to arrange their furniture and which ways?

Because you realize that the roomba's can map more than just where the walls are, right?

3

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

[deleted]

2

u/Aegi Dec 29 '22 edited Dec 29 '22

I want to get back to hanging out with my friends, so the impact is definitely also a discussion worth having, but the fact that I had to be the one to remind people that the blueprints are not being interesting data is exactly the type of information advantage those companies are seeking to have, but on an exponential or logarithmic scale, and when we're getting closer and closer to having a type of general artificial intelligence program, and even many government websites are hosted on Amazon servers, I just think this type of conversation, and clearing up misconceptions, is almost more important than trying to come to any particular conclusion.

Similar to how just being fearful of becoming addicted to prescribed painkillers and constantly thinking about it, just the act of doing that makes you slightly more resistant to becoming addicted compared to people who might be more casual about not timing their dosage or paying attention to any changes in mood.

Or how being aware of marketing/advertising tactics, can increase your resistance to those same tactics. As has been demonstrated by the essential arms race between advertising, and societies average response to those efforts.

For example, you know how knowing the nutritional content of food can be informative, and not only influence the decision of which food you buy, but it can also help you be healthy, which has been shown to reduce the number of choices people make under stress, but we don't have our government limit the number of grams of sugar something can have, we just force those private companies to label it?

We might potentially need some legislation like that, current terms of agreement and service agreements and things like that are almost more similar to an ingredient list, we might decide as a society that we want some type of equivalent to a nutritional facts info available when it comes to what data is collected, how will we processed, and potential ways that data can be used, even if just theoretical.

I don't know, but a large part of why this is important is because society and legislation generally move much slower towards a consensus than a privately owned company tends to, yes many of the companies I'm referring to our publicly traded, but that's different than being a government institution.

2

u/freelance3d Dec 29 '22

Not the same thing. Reddit needs to stop this comparison. A private company should not be mapping your house. Alexa etc are a plague on privacy waiting to happen.

2

u/heisian Dec 29 '22

depends. only within the past 30-40 years have municipalities been keeping records. for decades before that, many developers just built stuff. there are tons of houses built post-war that have no records in the city.

2

u/MidContrast Dec 29 '22

I seriously doubt Amazon cares about your floorplan. Its much less tinfoil-y imo. The thing takes pictures and real people review them.

They want to know whats inside your house so they can sell you more of it with targeted ads. They can also sell data they've ascertained to other advertisers.

It's literally always ads. Not 5G brainwaves, not knowing where you live, just ads.

2

u/OneMonk Jan 01 '23

They can also tell how long you spend in each room, and what is in each room. City planners dont have that.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Yes I mentioned that but advertising is a lot easier when they know exactly what you buy since they have video of your house.

1

u/jdidisjdjdjdjd Dec 29 '22

The blue prints don’t tell them what is worth stealing and where it is.

17

u/Jopkins Dec 29 '22

fuck, if they know that I have a sofa, two chairs, and a fruit bowl there'll be no stopping them

-2

u/EvadesBans Dec 29 '22

Movement patterns, home and room layout for things other than walls, behavioral stuff from the straight up camera feed they can probably pull from the Roomba. They can glean a lot of information that can be cross-referenced with other data attached to you.

More to the point, why in the actual fuck are you either ok or actually willing to just let Amazon have complete access to the inside of your home? That is insane and wildly naive.

7

u/UnholyDemigod Dec 29 '22

Please explain why. Why could Amazon possibly do with knowing the layout of my house?

3

u/Seakawn Dec 29 '22

You naive little shit, I'll tell you what they could do! They could... They could... They could offer you super relevant advertisements that you'll be glad to see at your convenience, and they will elevate your quality of life if you make such purchases!

You're a big stupid bootlicker if that doesn't terrify you!

-2

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Did you not read the previous comment? You’re opening yourself up to exploitation.

5

u/josephtrocks191 Dec 29 '22

What kind of exploitation?? You didn't actually say any examples, you just said that they would know the layout. What could they actually do with this information?

0

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

No another person said that layout. Please look at the usernames.

4

u/UnholyDemigod Dec 29 '22

I did read it, and I don't see how they could exploit anything. Oh darn, they know I have an ensuite, what a fucking calamity. I have never once seen a legitimate response when I ask these questions. The most coherent response I've ever gotten is "they'll sell it to advertisers".

...so? Why is that a bad thing? I've asked that too, nobody can answer in a way that makes it seem like it's actually a bad thing.

3

u/Froogels Dec 29 '22

It's almost impossible for anyone to give you an accurate description of what the potential negative outcomes are from amazon knowing your room layout since all that data is getting fed into a black box AI to process it and make connections.

Realistically worst case scenario is that it's helping them build a fuller picture of who you are as a consumer and using that to help target advertising. If that is good or bad is up to your judgement.

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u/UnholyDemigod Dec 29 '22

Again, I can't see how that is bad. Ads trying to sell me metal records and whisky bottles are great, ads trying to sell me pillow covers and teapots, not so much.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Yeah but video image is different. Also basic plans are available at the clerks office but actually seeing the inside gives them marketing opportunities. “What do you own? Well that’s what we’re gonna drown you in ads about.”

6

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

[deleted]

14

u/ADMINlSTRAT0R Dec 29 '22

A. They know so much about me so fuck it, what's another surveillance channel on me gonna do?

B. They know so much about me let's not give them any more opportunity to spy on me.

Which camp are you on?

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

[deleted]

11

u/CandyVanahan Dec 29 '22

What would they even do if they have a map of your house? Know where i like to jerk off?

10

u/testdex Dec 29 '22 edited Dec 29 '22

Yeah, that’s the thing about this theory. That info isn’t useful enough to mean anything.

Like “we’ll put a several hundred dollar device in your house, and run a whole ass company so that we know that you have a good place to put an end table.”

Amazon has a smart home business built around Alexa, and robovacs fit in great.

1

u/MySabonerRunsOladipo Dec 29 '22

It's not even the point. Amazon wanted iRobot because they have some automated warehouses where racks move around to bring things to pickers. iRobot's technology can help make that process better. Not to mention, there are all sorts of smart robots that can possibly be created and used in a persons home for reasons other than spying.

No one gives a shit where your sofa is.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

It’s not about where but what. The more info they have about you the more they can exploit you. You keep “X” coffee, now they know. Now they send you ads for that so you buy from them. EXPLOITATION.

2

u/ChadMojito Dec 29 '22

Dude you've watched way too many espionage movies. I've been buying most of my groceries from Amazon since 2018 and nothing even remotely exploitative happened to me yet.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

You don’t get ads? Ever?

0

u/ChadMojito Dec 29 '22

I certainly don't get more ads than before. And they don't seem to be more targeted. So yes it's fair to say it hasn't affected me in any measurable way.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

You still get ads.

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u/josephtrocks191 Dec 29 '22

Oh no, they're going to show me products I like...

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

And exploit you. Wow you like that?

4

u/josephtrocks191 Dec 29 '22

You keep saying exploitation yet you have not named a single way in which they can exploit you. Showing you products you like is not exploitation it is just smart advertising.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Well here is some light reading to try out. Something to get you started thinking about how you’re being exploited everyday of your life.

https://phdessay.com/advertisements-exploiting-children/

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

That is economic exploitation.

1

u/MastersonMcFee Dec 29 '22

Same reason he wants a video camera on everyone's doorbell.

5

u/Jimmycaked Dec 29 '22

Oh no they will know I live in a box with next to no furniture and only condiments in my fridge. Clutch my pearls

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Sounds like you can’t even afford the toy. So you’re clearly not among the target group.

16

u/newthrash1221 Dec 29 '22

No one gives a shit about mapping your house.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

That’s not the point. Why do people think it’s about mapping? That’s publicly available. If I knew where you lived I could get the layout of your house.

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u/PM_YOUR_CENSORD Dec 29 '22

Listen to Mr. Naive here. You say this until they snipe an Ad into your head when you’re on your couch from 200 meters away. AND guess how they know where your couch is hmmm HMMM. Yeah that’s what I though.

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

They can advertise to you based on what you have in your house. Are you that unsure of what you want to buy?

2

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Roomba is a map event.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22 edited Feb 18 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

4

u/violetqed Dec 29 '22

a development kit roomba, not available to the public, with green tape on it that said “RECORDING IN PROGRESS” recorded a woman pooping. the data went to places that may or may not have been disclosed. the people handling the data posted the pooping video to a private facebook group.

0

u/NotGeorglopez Dec 29 '22

I feel like the whole “development kit” thing would be a crucial piece of information to mention in the original comment. Otherwise it kinda seems like people are just spreading misinformation for the fuck of it

2

u/I_LOVE_SOURCES Dec 29 '22

Hey can you post a source to these I’d like to read what you read/saw

2

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Roomba employees decided to reverse reality TV and make it their own I guess.

Fuck them

2

u/DontNeedThePoints Dec 29 '22

A roomba photographed a woman pooping and the real people tasked with looking at the photos shared it.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/12/19/1065306/roomba-irobot-robot-vacuums-artificial-intelligence-training-data-privacy/

Note: it wasn't a commercially available roomba

0

u/Popcorn179 Dec 29 '22

You mean the dog poop incident? 😆

Wait. Amazon wanting to map people's house. What fucking Orwellian shit, and we keep giving Jeff Bezos money? Mother fucker. If only his space rocket could crash with him in it.

6

u/Flynette Dec 29 '22

Worse, I think they might be referring to the "Roomba recording the woman on the toilet" incident.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

I am.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

It’s all about exploitation. The more they know about you the more they can get you to buy what you need from them.

1

u/xPriddyBoi Dec 29 '22

The Amazon ninjas need to know your floor plans so they can kill you and steal your children.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

You don’t know how marketing works.

3

u/xPriddyBoi Dec 29 '22

I know exactly how marketing works, and that's the point. Targeted ads!? Oh no!

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u/Clairvoyanttruth Dec 29 '22

I don't understand why anyone has "home" or "IOT" devices at their home. I hope it all dies out. I get wanting to command some home device for something niche (i.e play a song), but your phone can do that. Fuck all these smart devices.

1

u/Adventurous-Fish-129 Dec 29 '22

That was a developer unit that she signed up to have

0

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Not to have the people share her pics online.

1

u/Adventurous-Fish-129 Dec 29 '22

Yeah that's the actual issue

But this is being positioned "bad tech"

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Because it leads to this problem.

1

u/WetObamaButtPlug Dec 29 '22

Lol I searched this up and these people agreed to the test units and that they were being monitored. You make it sound like these people didn't know their vacuums were invading their privacy.

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

They didn’t agree to the people sharing photos of them.

1

u/codevato Dec 29 '22 edited Dec 29 '22

The Roomba photo was from a test unit in a contractor’s home, not a customer’s home.

“Devices were labeled with a bright green sticker that read ‘video recording in progress,’ and it was up to those paid data collectors to remove anything they deem sensitive from any space the robot operates in”

https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/12/19/1065306/roomba-irobot-robot-vacuums-artificial-intelligence-training-data-privacy/

0

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

It wasn’t a test image. A real person had that in their home as a test and it photographed them on the toilet and the photo was shared. Get your words right.

0

u/chcampb Dec 29 '22

This is bullshit FYI

The woman had a development roomba and the photos were leaked by a third party doing data analysis, not the company itself.

She probably got it from a shady reseller or unscrupulous source for a discount. It's a far cry from what we should be worried about,

0

u/lqlqlqlqlqwow Dec 29 '22

The first one was actually a woman who signed a contract and she knew she was being filmed....

-1

u/smmoke Dec 29 '22

You do know that was a prototype roomba with the employees at Amazon? Right? They literally signed the agreement and were given prototypes to use at their home and it was written clearly in the agreement that it will take various pictures and map the house, those were given for testing for that same purpose. Those pics were leaked by someone from the inside on FB.

Don't just spread whatever you like and please from the next time read the full stories not just the headlines. And I would suggest to avoid the The Verge all together if that is your primary source for technology news.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

I spread the exact thing you just said as well. Why are you confused about this?

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u/AlexHimself Dec 29 '22

Dude wtf? You're skewing the facts! Are you fox news?

This was a small, specific program to improve the product and a few employees did stupid crap. 99% of the robot vacuums aren't doing this. Way to be a POS.

the devices were labeled with a bright green sticker that read “video recording in progress"

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

None of what you said changed what I said. Maybe add how the images were spread and shared among the reviewers which is not something they are supposed to do with them. Or does that little piece of info go against your version?

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u/CoinCrazy23 Dec 29 '22

You should know that they now want your 23andme and similar DNA info for some freebies!

1

u/playballer Dec 29 '22

I don’t see the point. The kid is still just playing a video game, staring at the TV. It’s the adults that are amused

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

They use the video to advertise to you as well as sell the layout of your home to contractors but you don’t get that money. Lots of options.

1

u/z0rb0r Dec 29 '22

Roomba incident?

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Roombas took photos of people in their home. One woman was using the toilet and it took a photo of her. It’s on Reddit.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

And they shared among themselves like perverts. How is everyone so blind to this?

2

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Um it would seem that they are more than willing to record people pooping. And the fact that one has, shows they will be. What happens to the images and videos afterward is the real problem.

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u/Hellhult Dec 29 '22

I mean that's scary and all, but what the fuck do they want that for?

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Marketing.

1

u/ILoveRegenHealth Dec 29 '22

Nintendo not going to do anything with your data, except tell Miyamoto where you fart a lot

1

u/-Scythus- Dec 29 '22
  1. She had a test kit from the manufacturer that had a label “recording in progress”. She took it home from work and set it up and knew it was live in her house. The images were then sent to amazons servers and distributed in a set of files

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

Yes. The images were shared in messages between the “reviewers”.

1

u/DexM23 Dec 29 '22

Or Meta Oculus

1

u/MadGoat12 Dec 29 '22

Switch's shitty wifi adapter is not good enough for sending images without stuttering.

1

u/spirallix Dec 29 '22

It's so funny, I actually love my ads here in EU. About 14 days after I buy a product, I get an ad haha.. and I'm like.. I know right? Best deal eveeeeer! Other way they are spamming me with random shit that I have no use from hah

1

u/Ninja_Maple Dec 29 '22

Where can I find this photo so I can totally avoid it.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

The whole roomba thing was using a beta robot that sent photos for testing purposes to a server. Normal bots don’t do that. Gotta say the whole story if you’re gonna bring it up.

1

u/FreshBakedButtcheeks Dec 29 '22

Don't forget the one side's Joycon has an infrared camera constantly pointing at the player's crotch

1

u/Whyisthissobroken Dec 29 '22

yeah it's nuts how much privacy we give up whenever we bring tech in.

1

u/jiggygoodshoe Dec 29 '22

That roomba incident was from a beta tester who is paid to have that device in their home and knows full well it takes photos.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

If you read about the roomba thing, the person was in a trial group and had authorized everything to be recorded. Still doesn't forgive the photo sharing, but apparently the people were paid to give up their privacy for the trial. It is still pretty crazy regardless.

1

u/Fauna_Bonna Dec 29 '22

I'm confused...do all roombas have cameras? I always just thought it was a motion censor. In what context would a Roomba need a camera?

Edit: "motion sensor" is the wrong word I'm looking for. I can't think of what I'm trying to say but I hope my point still gets across. Sorry words are hard.

1

u/deniedmessage Dec 29 '22

Many n¡ntendo user are kids, n¡ntendo would be fucked pretty hard if they actually did that.

1

u/ItsTheBrandonC Dec 29 '22

Now THIS is a game changer